Teenager showers draining the hot water tank

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Lobster

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Jan 16, 2009, 3:22:16 AM1/16/09
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This is half just a rant; half a serious query...

I now have three teenagers who have all graduated from the
allergic-to-washing phase, and who now believe it's their unalienable
right to stand in the shower under a stream of hot water gazing vacantly
at the wall or doing whatever the hell else it is they do in there,
until the hot water simply runs out. Can be >30 minutes, no problem....
Apart from the stupid energy bills, it means there's no water for the
next person in (normally a parent) - and of course being teenagers,
neither of those issues are problem in any way, so no matter how much I
rant, threaten, and bang on the door, I just get a "whatever" or "hey
chill out dad" and no modification to the behaviour.

We have a fairly large, unvented HW tank, which believe me heats up
pretty quickly and should contain plenty for 4 or 5 showers.

I'm trying to think of a reasonable, creative way of solving this one
and would welcome any ideas!

I know the obvious way would be to time them, then maybe introduce
sanctions or something if they go over, however, one of the difficulties
is that invariably I don't actually know when they go in the bathroom or
come out.

I can't do something that will impact on other users, so nipping down
the in-line service valve on the HW to reduce the flow to a trickle
isn't really an option, any more than adding a timed meter is!

The only things I can think of is to install a stopcock to the HW
somewhere accessible (maybe one of those remote ones?); however that
only works if I know when they enter the shower (and they're quiet, the
cunning little blighters); plus it would mean rousing myself from in
front of the fire to go and switch it off. A non-interventional method
is what's needed.

Thoughts please?!

David

Bob Mannix

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Jan 16, 2009, 3:29:46 AM1/16/09
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"Lobster" <davidlobs...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gtXbl.47864$t64....@newsfe17.ams2...

Hate to say it but this is the situation where a combi boiler (unusually)
knocks the opposition right out of the game - endless hot water and a
powerful shower. Of course that only solves the inconvenience but it's much
easier than standing outside shouting (I have done both). At least they are
clean teenagers rather than grungy ones. All things pass.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)


Rod

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Jan 16, 2009, 3:36:26 AM1/16/09
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Meter? You just need some means of recording shower usage. Even a
padlock on the shower would do.

Establish a charge structure. Five minute shower once a day - free. Each
extra minute up to 10 minutes - 10p. Each extra minute up to 20 minutes
- £1. And so on.

Any unpaid bills incur further sanctions such as 'no more showers'.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
<www.thyromind.info> <www.thyroiduk.org> <www.altsupportthyroid.org>

Gordon Henderson

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Jan 16, 2009, 3:41:12 AM1/16/09
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In article <gtXbl.47864$t64....@newsfe17.ams2>,

Lobster <davidlobs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>This is half just a rant; half a serious query...
>
>I now have three teenagers who have all graduated from the
>allergic-to-washing phase, and who now believe it's their unalienable
>right to stand in the shower under a stream of hot water gazing vacantly
>at the wall or doing whatever the hell else it is they do in there,

Electric, coin-operated shwoer.

A brief google shows:

http://www.stephenpwales.co.uk/Product/timers/home_timers.htm

it'll pay for itself in no-time :)

Gordon

The Medway Handyman

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Jan 16, 2009, 3:47:31 AM1/16/09
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Simple. Set up a device that plays Max Bygraves records through a hidden
speaker after 5 mins. Triggered by a timer on the shower.

But I ain't bovvered though...


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk


Adrian

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Jan 16, 2009, 3:51:37 AM1/16/09
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Lobster <davidlobs...@hotmail.com> gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying:

> Thoughts please?!

You're forgetting the most effective, most satisfying and most
pleasurable - as well as cheapest - solution.

Beat 'em to the shower. Just. Have a long hot shower yourself. Share it
with the missus. Then get out JUST before the hot water runs out.

There'll be a queue of teenagers at the bathroom door. The first will get
in, and - a minute later - it'll go cold. If you time it right, it'll be
just as the soap and shampoo are fully applied.

Tim S

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Jan 16, 2009, 4:20:51 AM1/16/09
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Lobster coughed up some electrons that declared:

...


>
> The only things I can think of is to install a stopcock to the HW
> somewhere accessible (maybe one of those remote ones?); however that
> only works if I know when they enter the shower (and they're quiet, the
> cunning little blighters); plus it would mean rousing myself from in
> front of the fire to go and switch it off. A non-interventional method
> is what's needed.
>
> Thoughts please?!
>
> David

Electric valve, flow switch in the HW pipe to the shower and some sort of
timer between them.

After the water starts flowing (and trips the flow switch), sets a run down
timer that resets a) 10 minutes later or b) When you press a secret button
hidden somewhere.

Message has been deleted

Andrew Gabriel

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Jan 16, 2009, 5:08:44 AM1/16/09
to
In article <gtXbl.47864$t64....@newsfe17.ams2>,

Lobster <davidlobs...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> The only things I can think of is to install a stopcock to the HW
> somewhere accessible (maybe one of those remote ones?); however that
> only works if I know when they enter the shower (and they're quiet, the
> cunning little blighters); plus it would mean rousing myself from in
> front of the fire to go and switch it off. A non-interventional method
> is what's needed.

ISTM that you simply want a smaller hot water cylinder, so it
runs out after ~10 minutes of shower. It will likely have heated
up again by the time next person goes in there. You can easily
reduce the effective size of a hot water cylinder just by moving
the thermostat higher up the side, which is a temporary change
you can easily make until they leave home.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Dave Plowman (News)

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Jan 16, 2009, 5:40:40 AM1/16/09
to
In article <gtXbl.47864$t64....@newsfe17.ams2>,

Lobster <davidlobs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> This is half just a rant; half a serious query...

> I now have three teenagers who have all graduated from the
> allergic-to-washing phase, and who now believe it's their unalienable
> right to stand in the shower under a stream of hot water gazing vacantly
> at the wall or doing whatever the hell else it is they do in there,
> until the hot water simply runs out. Can be >30 minutes, no problem....
> Apart from the stupid energy bills, it means there's no water for the
> next person in (normally a parent) - and of course being teenagers,
> neither of those issues are problem in any way, so no matter how much I
> rant, threaten, and bang on the door, I just get a "whatever" or "hey
> chill out dad" and no modification to the behaviour.

> We have a fairly large, unvented HW tank, which believe me heats up
> pretty quickly and should contain plenty for 4 or 5 showers.

> I'm trying to think of a reasonable, creative way of solving this one
> and would welcome any ideas!

Flow sensor followed by a motorised valve on the hot water feed with a one
shot timer? So it closes after *your* preset time. Say 10 minutes. How the
timer resets is up to you - after a preset time or via a control outside
the bathroom.

--
*You never really learn to swear until you learn to drive *

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Tim Downie

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Jan 16, 2009, 5:49:52 AM1/16/09
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Now that's smart! Wish I had thought of that.

Tim


Doctor Drivel

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Jan 16, 2009, 7:37:14 AM1/16/09
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"Lobster" <davidlobs...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gtXbl.47864$t64....@newsfe17.ams2...

As been said a high flow combi is what you need. To get over the problem is
not going to be cheap.

1. You could replace the existing boiler with a high flow combi and do away
with the unvented cylinder.

2. You could fit a high flow Rinnai multi-point (they have outdoor mounted
models), and keep the boiler as CH only. Have a flow switch on the cold
feed to the Rinnai to switch out the boiler when DHW is called. This keeps
your gas consumption within a U6 meter.

Similar to the Twinflow:
http://www.rinnaiuk.com/Updates-18-09-08/A4%20Twin%20Flow.pdf
http://www.rinnaiuk.com

Rinnais are very well made. Andrews make similar models.

3. You could heat the unvented cylinder with a plate heat exchanger and
bronze pump (using available tappings and/or Surrey flanges). This puts the
heat from the boiler at the top of the cylinder and it acts like a combi
with the cylinder as a large buffer. Heat up time beats the internal coil.
If you have condensing boiler, have the flow into the plate heat X, out of
the plate and into the top of the coil, out of the coil returning to the
boiler.

How big is your boiler in kW and what type? Condensing?

I would be inclined to go for No. 3 as it is the cheapest and most
efficient, with an amazing re-heat, and acts as a combi when needed to (you
will never run out of DHW, as wehn eh cylidner is exhausted it reverts to
what the boiler gives) and saves gas too. The cost is a plate heat
exchanger, £100-£150 (get a 100 to 130kW plate) and a Bronze pump - £50
http://www.centurionhbs.co.uk/shop/productdetail.asp?ID=2516&sectID=401&catID=408
And some pipe and fittings.

The Natural Philosopher

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Jan 16, 2009, 7:43:12 AM1/16/09
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Timer switch *outside* the bathroom and a motorised valve?

Hit the switch: you have water for 5 minutes only.

>
> David

The Natural Philosopher

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Jan 16, 2009, 7:44:13 AM1/16/09
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Bob Mannix wrote:
>
> Hate to say it but this is the situation where a combi boiler (unusually)
> knocks the opposition right out of the game - endless hot water

endless warm water.

and a
> powerful shower.

And a pathetic shower, especially if you are washing the dishes.

Doctor Drivel

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Jan 16, 2009, 7:51:51 AM1/16/09
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"Tim Downie" <timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6tb72aF...@mid.individual.net...

Not as smart as you think. The coil would have to be moved up as well,
otherwise a slow reheat, so not the answer.

The best and cheapest is what I pointed in my other post, No. 3 the plate
heat exchanger and bronze pump. Similar to this in operation:
http://www.mcdonald-engineers.com/plateflowspec.html

This can be retrofitted by using a Surrey flange on the top of the cylinder,
and maybe on the cold feed at the bottom too.

In fact using a direct cylinder, a plate heat X and bronze pump, it is
usually cheaper than the indirect coil cylinder version, and totally out
performs the coil.

It in effect increase the cylinder size as the energy in the cylinder and
the boiler are combined when the cylinder stat cuts in. It put hot water
from the boiler at the top of the cylinder where it is needed.

Doctor Drivel

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Jan 16, 2009, 7:53:41 AM1/16/09
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"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:123210985...@proxy00.news.clara.net...

You clearly haven't a clue. High flow combis can do two to three showers
simultaneously.

gazz

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Jan 16, 2009, 8:02:15 AM1/16/09
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"Doctor Drivel" <kill...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:gkq014$r8$1...@news.motzarella.org...

seems combi boilers and cfl's are the items that most divide this group,

dunno if it's just people who dont own them saying they are crap due to
jealousy or something, or they have tried a really cheap crappy version in
the past and were rightly disappointed, and now think everyone is using the
same cheapo crappy thing they did.


Doctor Drivel

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Jan 16, 2009, 8:14:45 AM1/16/09
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"gazz" <n...@spam.ta> wrote in message
news:6tbeqqF...@mid.individual.net...

You are right. Most here are DIYers and don't know what is on the market.
Combis have changed dramatically in the past 8 years or so. They buy cheapo
24kW 10 litres/min scrap and then judge all combis by that. What amazes me
is that they rigidly stick to this ridiculous belief.

Even so, a 10 litres/min combi will deliver 300 litres in 30 minutes.
Exhaust a 300 litre cylinder and it takes an hour to heat up. A combi goes
for ever.

An Ethos 54C will deliver approx 23 litres/min, which is 690 litres in 30
minutes. Ever seen the size of a 700 litre cylinder and how much the cost?

A combi must the first choice in the average British home.

kins...@delillo.lsr.ph.ic.ac.uk

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Jan 16, 2009, 8:07:11 AM1/16/09
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Lobster <davidlobs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The only things I can think of is to install a stopcock to the HW
> somewhere accessible (maybe one of those remote ones?); however that
> only works if I know when they enter the shower (and they're quiet, the
> cunning little blighters); plus it would mean rousing myself from in
> front of the fire to go and switch it off. A non-interventional method
> is what's needed.

> Thoughts please?!

A really stingy low-flow shower head, like you get in student halls.
The hot water will last longer, but they wont want to stay in such a
feeble shower for longer than it takes to wash.

#Paul

Doctor Drivel

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Jan 16, 2009, 8:27:39 AM1/16/09
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<kins...@delillo.lsr.ph.ic.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:vcd646-...@moo.uklinux.net...

And the Dad has to put up with the same shower too. Not good.

Adrian C

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Jan 16, 2009, 8:27:49 AM1/16/09
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Lobster wrote:
> Thoughts please?!
>

Entirely automate the process like a washing machine

1. Start showering in a mixture of water and a measured amount (great
saving here) of suitable detergent. e.g. Pantene
2. Recycle round the soapy water before the drain for a few minutes
3. Sound buzzer and wash down with clean water
4. Squirt out measured amount of conditioner
5. Cut all water for time for human to agitate and leave conditioner to work
6. Wash down with clean hot water
7. Sound buzzer then squirt out powerful shower cleaner detergent
8. Wash down with cold water
9. Squirt out some strong lemony fragrance

Could engineer in some heat recovery from drained water.

Also if human remains standing in the shower at step 7, then they will
eventually learn not to....

--
Adrian C

Doctor Drivel

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Jan 16, 2009, 8:32:07 AM1/16/09
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"Adrian C" <em...@here.invalid> wrote in message
news:6tbgamF...@mid.individual.net...

Would you feed them gruel as well?

Dave Plowman (News)

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Jan 16, 2009, 8:30:15 AM1/16/09
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In article <gkpv25$msr$1...@news.motzarella.org>,

Doctor Drivel <kill...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> As been said a high flow combi is what you need.

Standard reply from you - as it has been since you were Adam.

> To get over the problem is not going to be cheap.

Indeed not. And you're lumbered with high servicing/repair bills for
evermore - as well as the basic shortcomings of combis.

--
*No husband has ever been shot while doing the dishes *

Bob Mannix

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Jan 16, 2009, 8:47:34 AM1/16/09
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"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:123210985...@proxy00.news.clara.net...

I am not a Drivelling evangelist but I owned a house with a combi - the
shower would go hotter than it was possible to stand under and was excellent
in terms of power. Running the hot tap in the kitchen would have been a
problem and that is a downside but, for endless *hot* water, you can't beat
a combi (by definition). The OP's problem was not that he wanted to wash
dishes while they were showering but didn't want the hot water to run out.

A combi solves this - you don't make the anti-combi case (and there is one)
any stronger by half truths and misleading!

Doctor Drivel

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Jan 16, 2009, 8:50:27 AM1/16/09
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"Bob Mannix" <b1o...@mannix.org.uk> wrote in message
news:gkq35n$7b8$1...@south.jnrs.ja.net...

> I am not a Drivelling evangelist

You should be as it it is better for your soul.

> A combi solves this - you don't make the anti-combi case (and there is
> one)

I know of none.

Doctor Drivel

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Jan 16, 2009, 8:52:05 AM1/16/09
to

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:501e901...@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <gkpv25$msr$1...@news.motzarella.org>,
> Doctor Drivel <kill...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>> As been said a high flow combi is what you need.
>
> Standard

Please eff off as you are a complete and utter idiotic plantpot.

Dave Plowman (News)

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Jan 16, 2009, 9:01:05 AM1/16/09
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In article <6tbeqqF...@mid.individual.net>,

gazz <n...@spam.ta> wrote:
> >> And a pathetic shower, especially if you are washing the dishes.
> >
> > You clearly haven't a clue. High flow combis can do two to three
> > showers simultaneously.
> >

> seems combi boilers and cfl's are the items that most divide this group,

> dunno if it's just people who dont own them saying they are crap due to
> jealousy or something, or they have tried a really cheap crappy version
> in the past and were rightly disappointed, and now think everyone is
> using the same cheapo crappy thing they did.

Pray tell me of one which will give a flow rate of 20 l/min at 60C all
year round as my storage system will?

--
*People want trepanners like they want a hole in the head*

John Rumm

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Jan 16, 2009, 9:09:39 AM1/16/09
to

I know someone who was having trouble with teenagers and phone usage
(this was before everyone had a mobile). He installed a payphone and set
it to make a small profit. Seemed to work wonders.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

Dave Plowman (News)

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Jan 16, 2009, 9:06:22 AM1/16/09
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In article <gkq18l$def$1...@news.motzarella.org>,

Doctor Drivel <kill...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > dunno if it's just people who dont own them saying they are crap due
> > to jealousy or something, or they have tried a really cheap crappy
> > version in the past and were rightly disappointed, and now think
> > everyone is using the same cheapo crappy thing they did.

> You are right. Most here are DIYers and don't know what is on the
> market. Combis have changed dramatically in the past 8 years or so.

Makes no difference - you were prattling on about them even then. So at
least you're consistently wrong - even if you feel the need to change your
identity several times...

*******************************

From: Adam <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com>
Subject: Re: Combi or Conventional boiler?
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:05
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y

> I do like a good soak in the bath if time permits, and the thought of
> waiting ten minutes for the bath to fill is a complete no-no.

Dave,

There are high flow combis. Some meet the 16 litres/min that British
Standard lay down for bath taps and fill the bath just as fast as any other
system. Combis can give high flow!!!!!! People on here talk as it they
can't and never will.

If occasional high repair costs cancel out the cheap running costs so
what's the problem? You still have power shower type of showers and lot of
valuable space liberated. For every person that has had a troublesome
combi there are far more that have had no problems at all year after year.

--
*The statement below is true.

John Rumm

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Jan 16, 2009, 9:18:57 AM1/16/09
to

You could leave the original stat in place and just add another. Make
them switch selectable and you can switch out of limited capacity mode
when you want.

TheScullster

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Jan 16, 2009, 9:43:57 AM1/16/09
to

"Lobster" wrote

> This is half just a rant; half a serious query...
>
> I now have three teenagers who have all graduated from the
> allergic-to-washing phase, and who now believe it's their unalienable
> right to stand in the shower under a stream of hot water gazing vacantly

> at the wall or doing whatever the hell else it is they do in there, until
> the hot water simply runs out.

snip....
>
> Thoughts please?!
>
> David

It will affect your enjoyment as well, but do you have one of these aerating
shower heads fitted?
I believe they are designed to reduce water usage.
To avoid personal inconvenience, visit the gym more frequently and get your
showers there!

Phil


Dave Liquorice

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Jan 16, 2009, 10:04:01 AM1/16/09
to
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 14:01:05 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> Pray tell me of one which will give a flow rate of 20 l/min at 60C all
> year round as my storage system will?

You don't mean what you wrote. Is your storage system really capable of
providing 20/lmin @ 60C all day every day non stop? Sounds more like a
rather powerful combi if it can... B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

Tim Downie

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Jan 16, 2009, 10:20:54 AM1/16/09
to
Lobster wrote:
> This is half just a rant; half a serious query...
>
> I now have three teenagers who have all graduated from the
> allergic-to-washing phase, and who now believe it's their unalienable
> right to stand in the shower under a stream of hot water gazing
> vacantly at the wall or doing whatever the hell else it is they do in
> there, until the hot water simply runs out. Can be >30 minutes, no
> problem.... Apart from the stupid energy bills, it means there's no
> water for the next person in (normally a parent) - and of course
> being teenagers, neither of those issues are problem in any way, so
> no matter how much I rant, threaten, and bang on the door, I just get
> a "whatever" or "hey chill out dad" and no modification to the
> behaviour.
> We have a fairly large, unvented HW tank, which believe me heats up
> pretty quickly and should contain plenty for 4 or 5 showers.
>
> I'm trying to think of a reasonable, creative way of solving this one
> and would welcome any ideas!
>
> I know the obvious way would be to time them, then maybe introduce
> sanctions or something if they go over, however, one of the
> difficulties is that invariably I don't actually know when they go in
> the bathroom or come out.

As other have said, "all things will pass" so it would be daft to rip out a
perfectly good conventional system to deal with this problem. If they're
not amenable to reason then I think Andrew's suggestion of moving the tank
stat *up* the cyclinder to reduce its effective size is the most cost
effective & sensible. Fitting a swich selectable second stat would be icing
on the cake.

Getting in the shower first would also be a smart move. ;-)

Tim


Dave Plowman (News)

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Jan 16, 2009, 10:34:39 AM1/16/09
to
In article <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.net>,

Dave Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:
> > Pray tell me of one which will give a flow rate of 20 l/min at 60C all
> > year round as my storage system will?

> You don't mean what you wrote. Is your storage system really capable of
> providing 20/lmin @ 60C all day every day non stop?

Of course not. But it means it fills a bath quickly.

> Sounds more like a rather powerful combi if it can... B-)

But that's the whole point. Even so called high flow combis can't match in
practice a well designed storage system. And what most people have in
their homes gets nowhere near.

--
*Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.*

Adrian

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Jan 16, 2009, 10:44:28 AM1/16/09
to
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

>> > Pray tell me of one which will give a flow rate of 20 l/min at 60C
>> > all year round as my storage system will?

>> You don't mean what you wrote. Is your storage system really capable of
>> providing 20/lmin @ 60C all day every day non stop?

> Of course not. But it means it fills a bath quickly.

Which is the one complaint I've got with the combi we've got. In
practice, it's a very minor complaint. You turn the bath hot tap on, do
something else for a bit whilst it fills, then kick some cold in to get
the temperature right. <shrug> Since between us, we probably one bath a
month at most, it's not the end of the world at all.

It's definitely not a high-capacity combi - a quick google suggests a
nominal 9 litres/min at average 38deg rise, according to the specs, but
it's only a small house, with one bathroom and one shower room.

What's it mean in practice, though?

A shower that'll damn near take your skin off for as long as you want it.
Certainly no temperature, volume or pressure complaints.

Whilst somebody's in the shower, there's more than enough in reserve to
be using a sink hot tap. If the washing machine's on whilst you're in the
shower, you don't notice any temperature or pressure drop, either.

It Just Works. <shrug>

george (dicegeorge)

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Jan 16, 2009, 10:57:37 AM1/16/09
to

>
> I can't do something that will impact on other users, so nipping down
> the in-line service valve on the HW to reduce the flow to a trickle
> isn't really an option, any more than adding a timed meter is!
>

Why not add the timer or volume limiter as someone suggested,
but keep it 'free' to users?

You wont be impacting on other users
as they wont want to be there longer than five minutes, will they?

The constant hot water solution would be expensive in fuel.

[g]

John Rumm

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Jan 16, 2009, 11:49:47 AM1/16/09
to
Doctor Drivel wrote:

> It in effect increase the cylinder size as the energy in the cylinder
> and the boiler are combined when the cylinder stat cuts in. It put hot
> water from the boiler at the top of the cylinder where it is needed.

As is often the case, you seem to be solving a different problem from
the one the OP would like to solve. I get the impression he does not
want to increase the hot water delivery capacity, but would much rather
reduce the demand.

It all well and good upping the capability to deliver a never ending
shower, however the chances are you just increase the time the kids
spend in there are a result, and increase the energy costs associated.

John Rumm

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Jan 16, 2009, 11:57:11 AM1/16/09
to
george (dicegeorge) wrote:
>
>>
>> I can't do something that will impact on other users, so nipping down
>> the in-line service valve on the HW to reduce the flow to a trickle
>> isn't really an option, any more than adding a timed meter is!
>>
>
> Why not add the timer or volume limiter as someone suggested,
> but keep it 'free' to users?

A subtle tweak would be to have the capability to switch the hot supply
from direct from the cylinder, to one derived from a blending valve on a
suitable stimulus (flow switch triggered timer etc with parental
override). That way you could simulate the "about to run out of hot
water" feeling when required, without it being as obvious as shutting it
off completely. You could then allow say 15 mins of shower followed by
ongoing shower at 25 degrees - tolerable enough to get the soap off if
required, but not pleasant enough to stay there long by choice.
Complaints could be deflected with "the cylinder must be scaling up - I
might get it fixed if it gets any worse, but I don't seem to have any
problem personally" ;-)

Doctor Drivel

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Jan 16, 2009, 12:07:58 PM1/16/09
to

"Tim Downie" <timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6tbmueF...@mid.individual.net...

> As other have said, "all things will pass" so it would be daft to rip out
> a perfectly good conventional system to deal with this problem.

You do not rip it out if a plate heat X and bronze pump is used. Look at
the link I gave to for your understanding.

> If they're not amenable to reason then I think Andrew's suggestion of
> moving the tank stat *up* the cyclinder to reduce its effective size is
> the most cost effective & sensible.

That will NOT solve the problem,. As I have already told you, he will need
to move the coil inside the cylinder up too, as it heats bottom up. It would
work using a plate heat X and a bronze pump though, because it heats top
down. A coil heats bottom up. Get it?

Doctor Drivel

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Jan 16, 2009, 12:09:39 PM1/16/09
to

"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote in message
news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.net...

I see what you mean. You have to pity such people. A teenager will empty
that in one shower and it will take 45 min to 1 hour to re-heat. A waste of
time. Instant water heating is the only way.

Doctor Drivel

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Jan 16, 2009, 12:13:08 PM1/16/09
to

"John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message
news:TsadnTT9695ZJ-3U...@posted.plusnet...

> Doctor Drivel wrote:
>
>> It in effect increase the cylinder size as the energy in the cylinder and
>> the boiler are combined when the cylinder stat cuts in. It puts hot

>> water from the boiler at the top of the cylinder where it is needed.
>
> As is often the case, you seem to be solving a different problem from the
> one the OP would like to solve. I get the impression he does not want to
> increase the hot water delivery capacity, but would much rather reduce the
> demand.

Reducing demand is a parental thing. What is abundantly clear is that his
water system cannot cope with the needs of his family. The solution I gave
is the most cost effective and will deliver. It is quite cheap too and will
be cheaper to run using a condensing boiler. He could have a summer switch
that switches in a cylinder stat near the top of the cylinder to only give
half a cylinder of DHW. Again cheap to do. £for well under £200 he will
transform his system and save gas in running costs too. A win, win, all
around.

You are as usual confused. I doubt you understand what I am on about.


Doctor Drivel

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Jan 16, 2009, 12:17:53 PM1/16/09
to

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:501e935...@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <gkq18l$def$1...@news.motzarella.org>,
> Doctor Drivel <kill...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> > dunno if it's just people who dont own them saying they are crap due
>> > to jealousy or something, or they have tried a really cheap crappy
>> > version in the past and were rightly disappointed, and now think
>> > everyone is using the same cheapo crappy thing they did.
>
>> You are right. Most here are DIYers and don't know what is on the
>> market. Combis have changed dramatically in the past 8 years or so.
>
> Makes

Please eff off as you are an idiotic plantpot.

Doctor Drivel

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Jan 16, 2009, 12:19:32 PM1/16/09
to

"Adrian" <tooma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6tboasF...@mid.individual.net...

If the bath is 1/3 full you can still climb as it is filling. I don't see
the problem. Of course a 40Kw combi will give much superior performance.

John Rumm

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 12:20:25 PM1/16/09
to
Doctor Drivel wrote:
>
> "John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message
> news:TsadnTT9695ZJ-3U...@posted.plusnet...
>> Doctor Drivel wrote:
>>
>>> It in effect increase the cylinder size as the energy in the cylinder
>>> and
>>> the boiler are combined when the cylinder stat cuts in. It puts hot
>>> water from the boiler at the top of the cylinder where it is needed.
>>
>> As is often the case, you seem to be solving a different problem from the
>> one the OP would like to solve. I get the impression he does not want to
>> increase the hot water delivery capacity, but would much rather reduce
>> the
>> demand.
>
> Reducing demand is a parental thing. What is abundantly clear is that his
> water system cannot cope with the needs of his family. The solution I gave

It can obviously cope with the needs of the family. It can't cope with
the wants of some of it. Wants and needs are not the same thing.

> You are as usual confused. I doubt you understand what I am on about.

That could well be true for most people. I would not take it as a
compliment though.

Doctor Drivel

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 12:35:57 PM1/16/09
to

"John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message
news:SpydnT8dKoJsXO3U...@posted.plusnet...

> Doctor Drivel wrote:
>>
>> "John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message
>> news:TsadnTT9695ZJ-3U...@posted.plusnet...
>>> Doctor Drivel wrote:
>>>
>>>> It in effect increase the cylinder size as the energy in the cylinder
>>>> and
>>>> the boiler are combined when the cylinder stat cuts in. It puts hot
>>>> water from the boiler at the top of the cylinder where it is needed.
>>>
>>> As is often the case, you seem to be solving a different problem from
>>> the
>>> one the OP would like to solve. I get the impression he does not want to
>>> increase the hot water delivery capacity, but would much rather reduce
>>> the
>>> demand.
>>
>> Reducing demand is a parental thing. What is abundantly clear is that his
>> water system cannot cope with the needs of his family. The solution I
>> gave
>
> It can obviously cope with the needs of the family.

It can't cope. He has told us. The cheap solution I gave is a combined
combi/stored water system. He will "never" run out of DHW. Irrespective of
how his family used hot water it will provide the DHW. Got it? I doubt it.

>> You are as usual confused. I doubt you understand what I am on about.
>
> That could well be true for most people. I would not take it as a
> compliment though.

Boasting about being thick, eh.

Dave Plowman (News)

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Jan 16, 2009, 1:31:52 PM1/16/09
to
In article <TsadnTT9695ZJ-3U...@posted.plusnet>,

John Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:
> > It in effect increase the cylinder size as the energy in the cylinder
> > and the boiler are combined when the cylinder stat cuts in. It put hot
> > water from the boiler at the top of the cylinder where it is needed.

> As is often the case, you seem to be solving a different problem from
> the one the OP would like to solve. I get the impression he does not
> want to increase the hot water delivery capacity, but would much rather
> reduce the demand.

> It all well and good upping the capability to deliver a never ending
> shower, however the chances are you just increase the time the kids
> spend in there are a result, and increase the energy costs associated.

When did cost ever matter to dribble - when it's other's money he's trying
to spend? Just as well he lies about being a heating engineer - he'd soon
be found out.

--
*I wished the buck stopped here, as I could use a few*

Dave Plowman (News)

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Jan 16, 2009, 1:30:12 PM1/16/09
to
In article <6tboasF...@mid.individual.net>,

Adrian <tooma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> gurgled happily, sounding
> much like they were saying:

> >> > Pray tell me of one which will give a flow rate of 20 l/min at 60C
> >> > all year round as my storage system will?

> >> You don't mean what you wrote. Is your storage system really capable of
> >> providing 20/lmin @ 60C all day every day non stop?

> > Of course not. But it means it fills a bath quickly.

> Which is the one complaint I've got with the combi we've got.

It's a complaint most have - unless they're dribble.

> In practice, it's a very minor complaint. You turn the bath hot tap on,
> do something else for a bit whilst it fills, then kick some cold in to
> get the temperature right. <shrug> Since between us, we probably one
> bath a month at most, it's not the end of the world at all.

I can see that - but suggesting you rip out a perfectly satisfactory
storage system - as dribble always wants - is just nonsense.

> It's definitely not a high-capacity combi - a quick google suggests a
> nominal 9 litres/min at average 38deg rise, according to the specs, but
> it's only a small house, with one bathroom and one shower room.

Combis do have a place. But are frequently recommended by 'experts'
because they are easy to install and make them more profit. A storage
system being low pressure requires careful well thought out pipework.

> What's it mean in practice, though?

> A shower that'll damn near take your skin off for as long as you want
> it. Certainly no temperature, volume or pressure complaints.

> Whilst somebody's in the shower, there's more than enough in reserve to
> be using a sink hot tap. If the washing machine's on whilst you're in
> the shower, you don't notice any temperature or pressure drop, either.

You would round here - the mains pressure is poor. ;-)

--
*A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion.*

Bob Eager

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Jan 16, 2009, 1:50:11 PM1/16/09
to
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 17:35:57 UTC, "Doctor Drivel"
<kill...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> It can't cope. He has told us. The cheap solution I gave is a combined
> combi/stored water system. He will "never" run out of DHW. Irrespective of
> how his family used hot water it will provide the DHW. Got it? I doubt it.

Your 'solution' (even if viable) doesn't solve the cost problem. I'd go
with the timer and the mixer; that does.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

terry

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Jan 16, 2009, 2:12:57 PM1/16/09
to
On Jan 16, 7:08 am, and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:
> In article <gtXbl.47864$t64.32...@newsfe17.ams2>,

>         Lobster <davidlobsterpot...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> > The only things I can think of is to install a stopcock to the HW
> > somewhere accessible (maybe one of those remote ones?); however that
> > only works if I know when they enter the shower (and they're quiet, the
> > cunning little blighters); plus it would mean rousing myself from in
> > front of the fire to go and switch it off.  A non-interventional method
> > is what's needed.
>
> ISTM that you simply want a smaller hot water cylinder, so it
> runs out after ~10 minutes of shower. It will likely have heated
> up again by the time next person goes in there. You can easily
> reduce the effective size of a hot water cylinder just by moving
> the thermostat higher up the side, which is a temporary change
> you can easily make until they leave home.
>
> --
> Andrew Gabriel
> [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Andrew is "An unvented cylinder" what we here in North America call
"An electrically heated hot water tank"?

If so an idea?

Here a typical 'hot water tank', a) for 3 bedroom home, equipped with
one (or 1.5 bathrooms), a largish top load washing machine and
dishwasher etc. is about 33 Imperial gallons (roughly 140 litres).
Although some homes, b) Those with a jacuzzi type bath tub, may have a
60 gallon version.

Each type has a cold water inlet, hot water outlet, pressure relief or
'blow off' valve with open pipe to some sort of drain. Each version
has two 230 volt heating elements (top and bottom) each with it's own
thermostat; wired in a 'flip-flop' manner. There is usually some sort
of sacrificial (and supposedly replaceable) anode to try and cope with
(depending on local water condition) high mineral content and
corrosion.

First the upper element heats the top portion of the tank. As water is
used new cold water enters from the top but is routed downwards. When
top of tank reaches the preset temperature its thermostat flips-over
and the lower element then heats rest of tank. (It is possible by
moving one wire to have both elements operate simultaneously, but
wiring and circuit breaker etc. must be capable of; a) 2 x 3000 = 6000
watts or, b) 2 x 4500 = 9000 watts.

Idea. If arranged as above; provide a (hidden) switch to disable the
lower heating element. The available hot water with switch 'off' will
be, approx. the upper half of the tank. Say 60 to 70 litres? Enough
for perhaps five to six minutes of showering? When needed (parental
showering) operate hidden switch to heat all the water in the tank.

Visiting a relative in the UK some years ago I was shown an electric
hot water tank very similar to what we use here (after all the voltage
available is the same!) and much described.

PS. Before anyone starts ranting about the loss of heat from these hot
water tank heaters please note that the 'wasted heat' helps heat to
house; and we use electric heat (hydro generated) anyway!

Phil L

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 2:36:46 PM1/16/09
to
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Bob Mannix wrote:
>>
>> Hate to say it but this is the situation where a combi boiler
>> (unusually) knocks the opposition right out of the game - endless
>> hot water
>
> endless warm water.
>
> and a
>> powerful shower.

>
> And a pathetic shower, especially if you are washing the dishes.

My shower can half fill the bath in about 10 minutes, and the water is a
constant temperature at whatever you set it to via the mixer tap, from warm
to scalding - even at scalding the power is three times that you could hope
for from an electric shower.

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008


kins...@delillo.lsr.ph.ic.ac.uk

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 11:39:58 AM1/16/09
to
Doctor Drivel <kill...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> Thoughts please?!
> >
> > A really stingy low-flow shower head, like you get in student halls.
> > The hot water will last longer, but they wont want to stay in such a
> > feeble shower for longer than it takes to wash.

> And the Dad has to put up with the same shower too. Not good.

But fair, and a damn sight simpler than all the exotic
plumbings/ timer/ etc ideas that are being suggested. :-)

#Paul

tony sayer

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 3:15:33 PM1/16/09
to
In article <gkqfc1$4tq$2...@news.motzarella.org>, Doctor Drivel
<kill...@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus

Aren't these young girlies into saving the planet anymore?, this might
get them to change their ways knowing of the amount of Gas there're
burning;)...
--
Tony Sayer



Andy Champ

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 3:35:02 PM1/16/09
to
Doctor Drivel wrote:
>
> You are right. Most here are DIYers and don't know what is on the
> market. Combis have changed dramatically in the past 8 years or so.
> They buy cheapo 24kW 10 litres/min scrap and then judge all combis by
> that. What amazes me is that they rigidly stick to this ridiculous belief.
>
<cough>

You are right. Most here are DIYers and don't know what is on the
market. Cylinders have changed dramatically in the past 8 years or so.
They buy cheapo small coil scrap and then judge all cylinders by that.

(It's amazing how much faster the water heats with my new cylinder, and
the same old boiler)

Andy

The Natural Philosopher

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 3:54:07 PM1/16/09
to
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <gkq18l$def$1...@news.motzarella.org>,
> Doctor Drivel <kill...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> dunno if it's just people who dont own them saying they are crap due
>>> to jealousy or something, or they have tried a really cheap crappy
>>> version in the past and were rightly disappointed, and now think
>>> everyone is using the same cheapo crappy thing they did.
>
>> You are right. Most here are DIYers and don't know what is on the
>> market. Combis have changed dramatically in the past 8 years or so.
>
> Makes no difference - you were prattling on about them even then. So at
> least you're consistently wrong - even if you feel the need to change your
> identity several times...
>
> *******************************
>
> From: Adam <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Combi or Conventional boiler?
> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:05
> Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
>
>> I do like a good soak in the bath if time permits, and the thought of
>> waiting ten minutes for the bath to fill is a complete no-no.
>
> Dave,
>
> There are high flow combis. Some meet the 16 litres/min that British
> Standard lay down for bath taps and fill the bath just as fast as any other
> system. Combis can give high flow!!!!!! People on here talk as it they
> can't and never will.
>

Oh indeed. My sister had such in the basement of her house in germany.
It was the size of a small shed.

Now leaving aside low mains pressure, you can get high rates out of a
BIG combi, or small system boiler and a storage tank.

The relative sizes and costs are up to you to decide.

But a combi needs to be somewhere where the gas/oil is, and does need
some access, whereas a hot tank can be crammed in almost anywhere.

Combis are ideal for small urban single or at most two person flats,
where space is at a premium, and capital costs are small.

Once you get up to a family though, you either need storage or a BIG combi.


> If occasional high repair costs cancel out the cheap running costs so
> what's the problem? You still have power shower type of showers and lot of
> valuable space liberated. For every person that has had a troublesome
> combi there are far more that have had no problems at all year after year.
>

Well I couldn't find an oil combi that would do 80KW, which is what I
need for what I call decent hot water. So I fitted a 12Kw system boiler
and a 250l tank. Been happy ever since.

The Natural Philosopher

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 3:54:59 PM1/16/09
to
I can fill my bath in about 3 minutes completely.

The Natural Philosopher

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 3:55:33 PM1/16/09
to
Dad can take his own shower head in and fit it.

Peter Parry

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Jan 16, 2009, 6:33:28 PM1/16/09
to
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 08:22:16 +0000, Lobster
<davidlobs...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>I'm trying to think of a reasonable, creative way of solving this one
>and would welcome any ideas!

Simple. Tell them you have fitted three hidden webcams in the shower
room. Inform them that 10 minutes after the shower goes on the webcam
is connected to the world.

Doctor Drivel

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 6:47:07 PM1/16/09
to

"Andy Champ" <no....@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:gPCdnV3maJXqcu3U...@eclipse.net.uk...

> Doctor Drivel wrote:
>>
>> You are right. Most here are DIYers and don't know what is on the
>> market. Combis have changed dramatically in the past 8 years or so. They
>> buy cheapo 24kW 10 litres/min scrap and then judge all combis by that.
>> What amazes me is that they rigidly stick to this ridiculous belief.
>>
> <cough>
> You are right. Most here are DIYers and don't know what is on the market.
> Cylinders have changed dramatically in the past 8 years or so. They buy
> cheapo small coil scrap and then judge all cylinders by that.

What cylinders have changed in 8 years. Prey tell oh DIY man.

> (It's amazing how much faster the water heats with my new cylinder, and
> the same old boiler)

Being faster than the scrap you had before doesn't mean it is good.

Doctor Drivel

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 6:45:07 PM1/16/09
to

"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:123213924...@proxy02.news.clara.net...

> Oh indeed. My sister had such in the basement of her house in germany. It
> was the size of a small shed.

This man is clearly a lunatic. 16 litres./min is wall mounted and about
35-37 kW.

<snip drivel>

Doctor Drivel

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 6:48:50 PM1/16/09
to

"tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ihbr2ZHl...@bancom.co.uk...

Young girlies do not care about the planet at all.

Doctor Drivel

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 6:48:05 PM1/16/09
to

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:501eab8...@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <6tboasF...@mid.individual.net>,
> Adrian <tooma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> gurgled happily, sounding
>> much like they were saying:
>
>> >> > Pray tell me of one which will give a flow rate of 20 l/min at 60C
>> >> > all year round as my storage system will?
>
>> >> You don't mean what you wrote. Is your storage system really capable
>> >> of
>> >> providing 20/lmin @ 60C all day every day non stop?
>
>> > Of course not. But it means it fills a bath quickly.
>
>> Which is the one complaint I've got with the combi we've got.
>
> It's

<snip drivel>

Doctor Drivel

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 6:52:02 PM1/16/09
to

"Bob Eager" <rd...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:176uZD2KcidF-p...@rikki.tavi.co.uk...

> On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 17:35:57 UTC, "Doctor Drivel"
> <kill...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> It can't cope. He has told us. The cheap solution I gave is a combined
>> combi/stored water system. He will "never" run out of DHW. Irrespective
>> of
>> how his family used hot water it will provide the DHW. Got it? I doubt
>> it.
>
> Your 'solution' (even if viable) doesn't
> solve the cost problem.

It does. It is cheap and will never run out of DIY.

--
I like http://www.diybanter.com

Doctor Drivel

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 6:55:08 PM1/16/09
to

<kins...@delillo.lsr.ph.ic.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:urp646-...@moo.uklinux.net...

The timer ideas are just plain daft. The best way is the plate heat
exchanger and bronze pump.

Doctor Drivel

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 6:52:54 PM1/16/09
to

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:501eaba...@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <TsadnTT9695ZJ-3U...@posted.plusnet>,
> John Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:
>> > It in effect increase the cylinder size as the energy in the cylinder
>> > and the boiler are combined when the cylinder stat cuts in. It put hot
>> > water from the boiler at the top of the cylinder where it is needed.
>
>> As is often the case, you seem to be solving a different problem from
>> the one the OP would like to solve. I get the impression he does not
>> want to increase the hot water delivery capacity, but would much rather
>> reduce the demand.
>
>> It all well and good upping the capability to deliver a never ending
>> shower, however the chances are you just increase the time the kids
>> spend in there are a result, and increase the energy costs associated.
>
> When

Please eff off as you a total idiotic plantpot.

Doctor Drivel

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 6:56:07 PM1/16/09
to

"Peter Parry" <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote in message
news:c562n4hag8olare5m...@4ax.com...

They will be in there mooning at night.

John Rumm

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 6:58:14 PM1/16/09
to
terry wrote:

> Andrew is "An unvented cylinder" what we here in North America call
> "An electrically heated hot water tank"?

Not usually. Its a water tank that is usually fed directly from the cold
main (and hence needs to be constructed to withstand mains pressure),
and has some mechanism built in to allow for the expansion of the water
as it is heated (plus various other safety devices). They can be heated
electrically (and will often include an immersion element as a backup)
but will usually be heated via the central heating boiler - typically
via a heat exchanger coil built into the tank.

> If so an idea?

> Idea. If arranged as above; provide a (hidden) switch to disable the
> lower heating element. The available hot water with switch 'off' will
> be, approx. the upper half of the tank. Say 60 to 70 litres? Enough
> for perhaps five to six minutes of showering? When needed (parental
> showering) operate hidden switch to heat all the water in the tank.

Andy's post about using a higher placed stat would do much the same. The
indirect heating coil from the boiler will usually be placed lower in
the cylinder, but the convection and stratification of the water will
ensure the hot ends up at the top adjacent to the draw off point.

> Visiting a relative in the UK some years ago I was shown an electric
> hot water tank very similar to what we use here (after all the voltage
> available is the same!) and much described.

The most common arrangement like this is a cylinder with one or two
heating elements similar to those which you describe. Each has an
adjacent thermostat - usually built into a tube running alongside the
element. The water feed is to the base of the tank, but it typically
from a header tank in the attic (hence is lower pressure than the mains
supply) The hot water take off point also usually has a vent pipe that
returns to just above the cold water tank in the roof space. This serves
to provide expansion room, and also as an additional safety mechanism
should the stats fail and the water boils.

Again the same arrangement is more often used with a heat exchanger coil
taking heat from a boiler. (using gas heating via the boiler is
usually significantly cheaper than using ordinary electric heating here)

> PS. Before anyone starts ranting about the loss of heat from these hot
> water tank heaters please note that the 'wasted heat' helps heat to
> house; and we use electric heat (hydro generated) anyway!

Modern cylinders here are usually fairly heavily lagged and don't loose
heat that fast anyway.

John Rumm

unread,
Jan 16, 2009, 7:34:44 PM1/16/09
to

LOL! Now that I can believe.