Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating

[Bert Coules]

I have a problem with a laminate floor, laid about one year ago. The
sub-floor is conventional floorboards with wet underfloor heating on top and
then a recommended underlay.

In one place in the kitchen there seems to be damage to the t&g join and one
plank depresses if weight is put on it:

http://bertcoules.co.uk/non%20website%20files/images/Floor%20problem%202.jpg

(short version: https://tinyurl.com/yam3sdah )

The flooring runs under the kitchen units all the way to the wall. A
laminate fitter examined this and suggested that rather than lifting and
replacing the plank it would be possible to drill a small hole, squirt in
expanding foam and then weigh down the floor until it had set.

I was OK with getting him to do that, but then he had second thoughts about
drilling the hole. "There's too big a risk of hitting the pipework" he
said.

What do people think, firstly of the suggested method and secondly of the
dangers of drilling into the laminate? I'd have thought that going
carefully and using a depth gauge (and perhaps a non-pointed bit?) it ought
to be all right.

Also, any thoughts on what might have caused the damage in the first place?

Many thanks.

[Iggy]

replying to Bert Coules, Iggy wrote:
If it's literally just that plank, then I suspect it was a defective
lamination. If it is or starts showing elsewhere, then the flooring either
isn't approved for use over floor heating (not good for you and your fitter's
relationship) or you need to submit a Warranty Claim to the manufacturer
immediately.
>
On the fix-it side, I'd agree that expanding foam is NOT a good option.
Expanding foam does "seem" fairly rigid, but it's not. You'd be much better
off with a Gorilla Glue type of polyurethane water-curing (moist, not pooling)
and expanding glue. It's very solid and any excess chips or scrapes right off
of the flooring surface.
>
In that case, I'd much prefer to avoid any drilling (if possible) and lift the
plank a little more than in the picture or just enough to squirt and push-in
with a toothpick or popsicle stick (whatever) the glue to secure and fill the
problem area. If the plank can be bowed or lifted, then drilling into the side
is fine because it'll be invisible and later hidden.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/damaged-laminate-flooring-over-underfloor-heating-1248449-.htm

[Peter Parry]

On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 11:19:41 -0000, "Bert Coules"
<ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> wrote:

>The flooring runs under the kitchen units all the way to the wall. A
>laminate fitter examined this and suggested that rather than lifting and
>replacing the plank it would be possible to drill a small hole, squirt in
>expanding foam and then weigh down the floor until it had set.

Expanding foam when expanding exerts a large force on constraining
materials and is quite likely to lift the floor no matter what you try
to weigh it down with. Moreover, in a confined space it will not set
quickly and could easily continue to expand for several days.

[Bert Coules]

Iggy,

Thanks for your reply.

> You'd be much better off with a Gorilla Glue type
> of polyurethane water-curing (moist, not pooling)
> and expanding glue.

Can you recommend a specific one? Or will the original basic Gorilla Glue
be the best choice?

> In that case, I'd much prefer to avoid any drilling (if possible)...

I agree, that's obviously desirable.

> and lift the plank a little more than in the picture...

That's tricky. I can depress the plank (as pictured) but I can't get under
it to lift it, since the adjoining plank won't move either up or down.

[ss]

On 10/11/2017 11:19, Bert Coules wrote:
> In one place in the kitchen there seems to be damage to the t&g join and
> one plank depresses if weight is put on it:

I dont have an answer but it also looks like the plank is `bowing` where
it goes under the kickboard.

[Brian Gaff]

Yes after a week after the person thought it was done and plastered over the
foam it suddenly pushed a lump of plaster out and formed what I can only
describe as a bubble gum like structure poking out of the wall by the window
the foam was filling a void near.
I hate the stuff.
Its like some kind of alien organism.
Brian

--
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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
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Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Peter Parry" <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote in message
news:83cb0d1aqjuh2bgps...@4ax.com...

[tabb...@gmail.com]

+1, disastrous idea. It might seal the holed pipe though!


NT

[Bert Coules]

NT wrote:

> +1, disastrous idea.

Yes, that does seem to be the general opinion. Thanks to you and everyone
else for reinforcing it.

> It might seal the holed pipe though!

Ah well, every cloud (or every leak) and all that...

[Iggy]

replying to Bert Coules, Iggy wrote:

Just the basic Gorilla Glue will do the trick. And oh, I see. Well then, drill
a or a few holes and force the glue down as best you can. Drill in the dark
grain areas, as those will be least noticeable. You might even be able to just
draw over the holes with a Sharpie to disappear them, but then you'll need to
polyurethane them a few times for waterproofing and durability.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <0UmNB.28669$tO4....@fx08.am4>, Iggy
<caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> writes

The underfloor heating pipes should not run under the kitchen units
anyway.

My next job:-)

Over floor grooved EPS. The heating system suppliers suggest
strengthening the floor with timber battens where the feet go. Kitchen
designer lady pooh poohed this when I ran it by her.

I guess your floor fitters used a butt joint instead of the tongue and
groove supplied.

>

--
Tim Lamb

[Bert Coules]

Tim Lamb wrote:

> The underfloor heating pipes should not run under the kitchen units
> anyway.

Is that relevant? The part of the flooring which might need to be drilled
is not under the kitchen units and so has the UFH pipes directly beneath it.

> I guess your floor fitters used a butt joint instead of the tongue and
> groove supplied.

I don't see how that can be the case, since the depression occurs only over
one small part of the entire length of the plank.

[Bert Coules]

Iggy wrote:

> Just the basic Gorilla Glue will do the trick.

Thank you.

Surely if it does prove necessary (and practical) to drill through the
laminate it should be possible to plug the holes afterwards with an
appropriately coloured filler of some sort, shouldn't it? Thank you for the
tip about waterproofing those spots.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Friday, 10 November 2017 20:09:52 UTC, Tim Lamb wrote:

> My next job:-)
>
> Over floor grooved EPS. The heating system suppliers suggest
> strengthening the floor with timber battens where the feet go. Kitchen
> designer lady pooh poohed this when I ran it by her.
>
> I guess your floor fitters used a butt joint instead of the tongue and
> groove supplied.

Flooring EPS is known for sagging in time. I'd not want to rely on it to carry the load, especially in a kitchen.


NT

[Andrew]

On 10/11/2017 11:19, Bert Coules wrote:

> Also, any thoughts on what might have caused the damage in the first place?

Someone dropped a Le Creuset cooking utensil and it hit edge down right
on a floor joint ?.

[Iggy]

replying to Bert Coules, Iggy wrote:

Actually, the glue would be much better as your filler, since it'll be solidly
connected down below and it's glue. Using some putty or auto body filler for
such a shallow patch will pop right out. If you prefer either of those though,
then re-drill the holes afterward and wiggle the drill bit around so the holes
are conical, so the patches can't pop-out or walk-up and out of their holes.

[Bert Coules]

Iggy,

It didn't occur to me that the glue itself would seal the holes but now you
point it out it is of course obvious. thanks.

[Bert Coules]

NT,

> Flooring EPS is known for sagging in time.

Even when installed on top of conventional floorboards?

[Bert Coules]

Andrew wrote:

> Someone dropped a Le Creuset cooking utensil and it hit edge down right
> on a floor joint ?

An interesting thought but I know of nothing, unfeasibly heavy or otherwise,
ever having been dropped on that spot.

[John Rumm]

Do you have a spare plank?

If so, cut the existing one out (circular saw set to depth of plank).
Cut inside the perimeter all round. Then break out the remaining edges.
Level or fix the floor under, then fit new plank having chopped off the
underside of the grove so that it can be dropped into place on a bed of
adhesive and weighted down til set.


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[tabb...@gmail.com]

I've never seen a floor done like that :)

[alan_m]

If the laminate board can be lifted slightly more the hole can be
drilled diagonally starting at the edge and may hidden when fitted flush
again.

Consider injecting the glue using a syringe without a needle (medical or
printer ink replacement from ebay). Some syringes have fairly long
plastic outlet nozzles over which the needle is attached and would allow
a hole of a few mm to be pumped full of glue. Alternative, if the glue
consistency allows, some of the ink refill syringe needles may be of a
wider bore to allow pumping glue down a 1 or 2 mm hole.

--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[alan_m]

On 10/11/2017 11:19, Bert Coules wrote:

> Also, any thoughts on what might have caused the damage in the first place?

An observation
The gap between the floor and the kitchen unit base seems to go to zero
at the point of the dodgy board. Could the kitchen unit kick board be
too tight at the point where the floor rises slightly and is levering
down the laminate plank on one side of an underlying joist - and causing
it to rise the other side of the joist? Perhaps remove the kick board
to see if the floor naturally recovers and if it does just shave a bit
from the kick board at the appropriate point.

[alan_m]

Don't consider that you have a depression but alternatively one plank is
being forced up and the adjacent planks are coming up with it. The plank
that is causing the problem cannot move but the adjacent planks tongue
and groove has partially failed so you can depress it.

[ss]

On 11/11/2017 07:48, alan_m wrote:
> An observation
> The gap between the floor and the kitchen unit base seems to go to zero
> at the point of the dodgy board. Could the kitchen unit kick board be
> too tight at the point where the floor rises slightly and is levering
> down the laminate plank on one side of an underlying joist - and causing
> it to rise the other side of the joist?  Perhaps remove the kick board
> to see if the floor naturally recovers and if it does just shave a bit
> from the kick board at the appropriate point.

I mentioned that in post above but rethinking it maybe that the board is
slightly too long and is wedged in somewhere beyond the kickboard
causing it to bow upwards.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <QradnSorF7cDhpvH...@brightview.co.uk>, Bert
Coules <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> writes

>Tim Lamb wrote:
>
>> The underfloor heating pipes should not run under the kitchen units
>>anyway.
>
>Is that relevant? The part of the flooring which might need to be
>drilled is not under the kitchen units and so has the UFH pipes
>directly beneath it.

Sorry. I hadn't looked at your photo. Do you know what type of boards
were used for the underfloor piping? I'm using the EPS version and
wouldn't risk laying laminate directly on top.

>
>> I guess your floor fitters used a butt joint instead of the tongue
>>and groove supplied.
>
>I don't see how that can be the case, since the depression occurs only
>over one small part of the entire length of the plank.

The original ground floor set up here was 25mm Jablite over concrete
with 18mm glued joint chipboard flooring. There was one heavily
trafficked place where the floor squeaked. I haven't stripped this out
yet but I suspect the flooring joint happens to coincide with the joint
in the insulation.


>
>

--
Tim Lamb

[Bert Coules]

"alan_m" wrote:

> The gap between the floor and the kitchen unit base seems to go to zero at
> the point of the dodgy board. Could the kitchen unit kick board be too
> tight at the point where the floor rises slightly and is levering down the
> laminate plank on one side of an underlying joist - and causing it to rise
> the other side of the joist? Perhaps remove the kick board to see if the
> floor naturally recovers and if it does just shave a bit from the kick
> board at the appropriate point.

Thanks for that. I've now removed the kick board in the photo, and another
nearby one at 90 degrees to it (the kitchen units being in an L shape) but
it's made no difference. I'm beginning to suspect that there might be a
problem with the underlying floorboard(s) which if so will be a real pain.
none of the laminate in this area seems to be lying properly flat and there
are signs that another board is going the same way as the damaged one.

I hope it doesn't come to removing the kitchen units.

[Andy Burns]

Bert Coules wrote:

> none of the laminate in this area seems to be lying properly flat

Is there an expansion gap round the edges?

[Bert Coules]

"ss" wrote:

> I mentioned that in post above but rethinking it maybe that the board is
> slightly too long and is wedged in somewhere beyond the kickboard causing
> it to bow upwards.

Yes, thanks for that: sorry I failed to acknowledge it earlier. With the
kickboards removed I tried to see how much (if any) gap had been left
between the laminate and the walls but it's very difficult to gauge.

Could it be that the weight of the units themselves is sufficient to prevent
the laminate's proper degree of expansion and contraction?

If so, maybe the answer is to remove the laminate from beneath the units.

[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> Do you have a spare plank?
>
> If so, cut the existing one out (circular saw set to depth of plank). Cut
> inside the perimeter all round. Then break out the remaining edges. Level
> or fix the floor under, then fit new plank having chopped off the
> underside of the grove so that it can be dropped into place on a bed of
> adhesive and weighted down til set.

Thanks for that. The idea of sawing through the laminate, even with the saw
set to its thickness, is rather daunting - just as the professional fitter I
consulted was daunted by drilling into it - but I can see that it might be
the best approach.

However, as I just wrote in a separate post, I'm beginning to have doubts
about the whole kitchen area.

[Bert Coules]

Andy Burns wrote:

> Is there an expansion gap round the edges?

It's difficult to tell since the edges in this area are covered by the
kitchen units. But elsewhere the original fitters left the usual gaps and I
imagine that they did the same here.

I wonder though (as I just posted separately) if the weight of the kitchen
units could be sufficient to prevent the flooring expanding and contracting
properly.

[Roger Hayter]

Bert Coules <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> wrote:

> "ss" wrote:
>
> > I mentioned that in post above but rethinking it maybe that the board is
> > slightly too long and is wedged in somewhere beyond the kickboard causing
> > it to bow upwards.
>
> Yes, thanks for that: sorry I failed to acknowledge it earlier. With the
> kickboards removed I tried to see how much (if any) gap had been left
> between the laminate and the walls but it's very difficult to gauge.
>
> Could it be that the weight of the units themselves is sufficient to prevent
> the laminate's proper degree of expansion and contraction?

snip

You mean by friction stopping it sliding a mm or two against the
kickboards? I don't think this is even remotely possible, the forces
from friction are going to be much too small to cause the laminate to
buckle because of the compressibility of the underlay. I could be
completely wrong of course,

--

Roger Hayter

[Bert Coules]

Roger Hayter wrote:

> You mean by friction stopping it sliding a mm or two against the

> kickboards? I don't think this is even remotely possible...

Thanks for that.

[John Rumm]

On 13/11/2017 11:34, Bert Coules wrote:
> John Rumm wrote:
>
>> Do you have a spare plank?
>>
>> If so, cut the existing one out (circular saw set to depth of plank).
>> Cut inside the perimeter all round. Then break out the remaining
>> edges. Level or fix the floor under, then fit new plank having chopped
>> off the underside of the grove so that it can be dropped into place on
>> a bed of adhesive and weighted down til set.
>
> Thanks for that. The idea of sawing through the laminate, even with the
> saw set to its thickness, is rather daunting - just as the professional
> fitter I consulted was daunted by drilling into it - but I can see that
> it might be the best approach.

If you have a similar plank, then its fairly "safe", since you can use
that to set the depth of cut on the saw. That way you can make sure you
go no deeper than the plank.

[John Rumm]

It could well be that the existing floor was not flat enough in the
first place, and hence some boards are spanning dips in the floor
substrate. Over time, the T&G edges will start to break, and that will
allow a board to depress into a dip.

[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> If you have a similar plank, then its fairly "safe", since you can use
> that to set the depth of cut on the saw. That way you can make sure you go
> no deeper than the plank.

I'd have preferred it if you hadn't chucked in that "fairly"! Yes, this
does seem the way to do it, except that my only circular saw is a massive
and unwieldy beast of a thing and not exactly a precision instrument any
more, so I'm thinking of acquiring a small plunge saw purely for this job.
There seem to be several reasonable-looking budget models around, such as
the 18V cordless Bakita:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cordless-Lithium-Precision-Circular-Extractor/dp/B06XWD98TF/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1510651363&sr=8-8&keywords=mini+circular+saw

(Short version: https://tinyurl.com/ya3cmtj8 )

I realise of course that you get what you pay for, but for an immediate
one-off task (and only the very occasional job (if that) in the future) it
seems OK to me to go for something like that. As long as the depth gauge is
reliable...

[Bert Coules]

Whoops. That's "Batavia", not Bakita.

[John Rumm]

On 14/11/2017 09:41, Bert Coules wrote:
> John Rumm wrote:
>
>> If you have a similar plank, then its fairly "safe", since you can use
>> that to set the depth of cut on the saw. That way you can make sure
>> you go no deeper than the plank.
>
> I'd have preferred it if you hadn't chucked in that "fairly"! Yes, this
> does seem the way to do it, except that my only circular saw is a
> massive and unwieldy beast of a thing and not exactly a precision
> instrument any more, so I'm thinking of acquiring a small plunge saw

You don't really need precision for the hacking out part of the exercise ;-)

> purely for this job. There seem to be several reasonable-looking budget
> models around, such as the 18V cordless Bakita:
>
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cordless-Lithium-Precision-Circular-Extractor/dp/B06XWD98TF/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1510651363&sr=8-8&keywords=mini+circular+saw
>
>
> (Short version: https://tinyurl.com/ya3cmtj8 )
>
> I realise of course that you get what you pay for, but for an immediate
> one-off task (and only the very occasional job (if that) in the future)
> it seems OK to me to go for something like that. As long as the depth
> gauge is reliable...

That kind of thing looks ideal, although note that particular one can
only cut 12mm, and some posher laminates a slightly more than that
(although most are less to be fair).

[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> That kind of thing looks ideal, although note that particular one can only

> cut 12mm...

Well spotted, thanks.

> and some posher laminates a slightly more than that (although most are
> less to be fair).

Mine is 10mm. I'm wondering now if a thicker product might not have given
rise to the problem, though it's a bit late to think about that.

[John Rumm]

When you have a void under a join in the board, you end up with the full
weight of the person standing on it being supported on a third of the
thickness of the board (i.e. the bottom part of the groove, or the
tongue), so its quite easy to break something - especially as most are
MDF backed and that is quite weak in tension across its layers)

[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> When you have a void under a join in the board, you end up with the full
> weight of the person standing on it being supported on a third of the
> thickness of the board (i.e. the bottom part of the groove, or the
> tongue), so its quite easy to break something - especially as most are MDF
> backed and that is quite weak in tension across its layers)

Which means presumably that a new board in the same position would sooner or
later go the same way.

I've been wondering about installing a new floor surface on top of the
laminate in the kitchen area (it's only a small corner section of an open
plan bungalow) - perhaps laminate again but with the planks running at
ninety degrees to the ones there now.

There are multiple snags though: the existing floor doesn't lay dead flat,
there would be two exposed edges ripe for tripping over and it would be
necessary to somehow fix down the new flooring so that it doesn't move. But
it should certainly solve the present problem.

And another thought that's just struck me: remove the existing laminate in
the kitchen and replace it with new flooring planks of the same thickness,
at ninety degrees. If I could arrange suitable junction strips of some sort
that might work, though I suspect that the different expansion tendencies
could well be a problem.

[Bert Coules]

...or floor tiles, maybe?

[tabb...@gmail.com]

You can have an ok real circular saw for that much, Aldi or machine mart.


NT

[Bert Coules]

NT wrote:

> You can have an ok real circular saw for that much, Aldi or machine mart.

Sure, but the smallness and manoeuverability of a battery plunge saw appeals
to me for this particular job.

[John Rumm]

On 14/11/2017 23:35, Bert Coules wrote:
> John Rumm wrote:
>
>> When you have a void under a join in the board, you end up with the
>> full weight of the person standing on it being supported on a third of
>> the thickness of the board (i.e. the bottom part of the groove, or the
>> tongue), so its quite easy to break something - especially as most are
>> MDF backed and that is quite weak in tension across its layers)
>
> Which means presumably that a new board in the same position would
> sooner or later go the same way.

Unless you pack the void so that the replacement board is better supported.

Most of the laminate floor instructions will include details of the
maximum level of unevenness they will tolerate

> I've been wondering about installing a new floor surface on top of the
> laminate in the kitchen area (it's only a small corner section of an
> open plan bungalow) - perhaps laminate again but with the planks running
> at ninety degrees to the ones there now.

Its one option, but it strikes me as a bit of a bodge! ;-)

> There are multiple snags though: the existing floor doesn't lay dead
> flat, there would be two exposed edges ripe for tripping over and it
> would be necessary to somehow fix down the new flooring so that it
> doesn't move. But it should certainly solve the present problem.

Its not too difficult to lose half an inch or so of height difference at
a threshold I found. I had a similar problem when I fitted and
engineered wood floor and needed to match the different level into the
room. I made up a custom threshold strip to do it:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Hard_Wood_floor_-_retrofit

> And another thought that's just struck me: remove the existing laminate
> in the kitchen and replace it with new flooring planks of the same
> thickness, at ninety degrees. If I could arrange suitable junction
> strips of some sort that might work, though I suspect that the different
> expansion tendencies could well be a problem.

What is the subfloor made from? Also why is it so uneven?

If it were a solid floor, then a coat of self levelling compound would
do the trick nicely before relaying whatever finish on to.

If its a susspended floor, could you fix it just by identifying the bad
bits and adding packers between the joists and the floor boards?

[John Rumm]

On 15/11/2017 00:10, Bert Coules wrote:

> ...or floor tiles, maybe?

You need something basically flat before you start if going that route.

[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> Its one option, but it strikes me as a bit of a bodge! ;-)

Yes, me too. But I appreciate your thoughts about making a custom
threshold.

> What is the subfloor made from?

Conventional t&g floorboards on joists.

> Also why is it so uneven?

A good question; I don't know. (But is it? See below...)

> ...could you fix it just by identifying the bad bits and adding packers

> between the joists
> and the floor boards?

Very likely, if it weren't for the unfortunate fact that the underfloor
heating is in the way. A bit of a complication, that. Actually, I suppose
it's possible that the unevenness is a problem with the moulded pipe housing
rather than the floorboards: if I succeed in removing the damaged plank
without flooding the kitchen I'll be able to see.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> You need something basically flat before
> you start if going that route.

Good point, thanks.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <hfKdnWBpdbWugZHH...@brightview.co.uk>, John
Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> writes

>On 14/11/2017 23:35, Bert Coules wrote:
>> John Rumm wrote:
>What is the subfloor made from? Also why is it so uneven?
>
>If it were a solid floor, then a coat of self levelling compound would
>do the trick nicely before relaying whatever finish on to.
>
>If its a susspended floor, could you fix it just by identifying the bad
>bits and adding packers between the joists and the floor boards?

We don't yet know if the underfloor heating pipes are retained in EPS
with no overboarding other than the laminate. Bert might be able to
discover this by looking elsewhere. Threshold strip?

This sort of stuff.
<http://www.thefloorheatingwarehouse.co.uk/acatalog/Ultra-LOW-Underloor-H
eating-Overlay-System---18mm-Panels.html>
>

--
Tim Lamb

[Tim Lamb]

In message <vN2dnZbFu6YOlpHH...@brightview.co.uk>, Bert
Coules <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> writes

Umm.. Is there no way of discovering the floor make up without damage?
If you dig around the floor heating suppliers for advice, I doubt you
will find any recommendation for click laminate directly on the
insulation systems.

There are other stronger systems which you may have.



--
Tim Lamb

[Bert Coules]

Tim Lamb wrote:

> We don't yet know if the underfloor heating pipes are retained in EPS with
> no overboarding other than the laminate. Bert might be able to discover
> this by looking elsewhere. Threshold strip?

The system used is by Maincor:

http://www.maincor.co.uk/underfloor-heating/overboard-ufh/

As far as I recall, all that's between the moulded boards which hold the
pipework and the laminate is a fairly thin underlay (a type recommended by
the laminate supplier).

[Bert Coules]

Tim Lamb wrote:

> Umm.. Is there no way of discovering the floor make up without damage?

But one plank is already damaged and will (presumably) have to come out and
be replaced. Apart from drilling though it and injecting something to fill
the gap (which obviously won't be effective if it's the underlying
structure that's dropping) I can't think of any way of examining and
hopefully fixing the problem without destroying at least one plank.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <E7-dnc09oc2O7ZHH...@brightview.co.uk>, Bert
Coules <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> writes

OK Bert. I've caught up:-)

Assuming they didn't run pipes under the kitchen units, you will have a
return board where you stand to do the washing up. These look to be less
supportive than the straight runs.

You could find the pipes by use of an infra red thermometer. It might be
better to inject a cement slurry rather than an expanding foam.

--
Tim Lamb

[Bert Coules]

Well, that didn't last long. My new (and admittedly, budget) plunge saw
arrived and seemed perfectly well made and robust. I charged the battery
and tried a few test cuts on scrap to get the feel of the tool, then with a
deep breath decided to tackle the broken plank.

I almost finished one complete lengthwise cut when the saw stopped: it
didn't have enough power to get through the laminate. The battery indicator
wasn't at empty but neither was it at full, so I charged it again. The next
cut managed about three inches before the saw stopped for a second time.

Back to the charger. The charging light flashed once and then remained
resolutely off. So - a faulty Lithium-ion battery? Whether that's it or
not, it has to go back.

I suppose "buy locally" is the moral.

[The Natural Philosopher]

over temperature cutout?


--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

[Bert Coules]

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> over temperature cutout?

Thanks for the thought. I did try again after a lengthy interval and the
charging light did come back on. But when the charger showed the battery as
completely full, the battery's own indicator didn't. And again I only got a
minute of so of use before the tool died again.

Currently, after another (cooling down?) period the battery is charging
again. It will be interesting to see what happens this time.

[Bert Coules]

Well, after some stop-and-go cutting with the plunge saw I've managed to
remove the suspect plank (and without flooding the kitchen):

http://bertcoules.co.uk/non%20website%20files/images/Plank%20removed.jpg

(Short version: https://tinyurl.com/y9ytyasp )

My initial reaction was that I was surprised to see those particular UFH
housing-boards: I expected to find the ones for straight pipe runs,
which would surely give slightly more support. Of course I don't know
what's happening at either side of the exposed section: I suppose the pipes
might well be turning back on themselves there. You can see that the
pipework runs in two different directions and the two runs at the bottom of
the image do indeed turn through 180 degrees so the layout isn't as
straightforward as I would have thought.

The next thing I noticed - annoyingly - is that the plank I removed, the one
which dropped when weight was put on it - doesn't have a damaged edge. And
bafflingly, neither does the one next to it. Not only can I see no reason
why the depression was happening, I can't see *how* it was happening.

More investigation tomorrow...

[John Rumm]

You might only get deflection of the tongue when there is force applied...

If you get a long straight edge, you should be able to see if there is a
low spot somewhere there.

[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> You might only get deflection of the tongue when there is force applied...

Yes, thanks, that's the first thing to try tomorrow, I think. Though a
slightly half-hearted bit of foot-pressure on the exposed UFH system (I'm
still a bit wary of damaging those pipes) didn't move it downwards at all,
so quite where the plank went to when it moved remains a bit of a mystery.
Perhaps I just need to be bolder.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <C7Kdnf_jwsx1iZPH...@brightview.co.uk>, John
Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> writes

>On 16/11/2017 18:55, Bert Coules wrote:
>> Well, after some stop-and-go cutting with the plunge saw I've managed to
>> remove the suspect plank (and without flooding the kitchen):
>>
>> http://bertcoules.co.uk/non%20website%20files/images/Plank%20removed.jpg
>>
>> (Short version: https://tinyurl.com/y9ytyasp )
>>
>> My initial reaction was that I was surprised to see those particular UFH
>> housing-boards: I expected to find the ones for straight pipe runs,
>> which would surely give slightly more support. Of course I don't know
>> what's happening at either side of the exposed section: I suppose the
>> pipes might well be turning back on themselves there. You can see that
>> the pipework runs in two different directions and the two runs at the
>> bottom of the image do indeed turn through 180 degrees so the layout
>> isn't as straightforward as I would have thought.
>>
>> The next thing I noticed - annoyingly - is that the plank I removed, the
>> one which dropped when weight was put on it - doesn't have a damaged
>> edge. And bafflingly, neither does the one next to it. Not only can I
>> see no reason why the depression was happening, I can't see *how* it was
>> happening.
>>
>> More investigation tomorrow...
>>
>You might only get deflection of the tongue when there is force applied...
>
>If you get a long straight edge, you should be able to see if there is
>a low spot somewhere there.

If the problem was the left hand edge in your picture, the board has
less support there because it coincides with a pipe run.
Now you have it exposed, I wonder if some sheet aluminium could be
inserted as additional support.
>

--
Tim Lamb

[John Rumm]

Chances are there is a dip either visible at the top of the UFH panels,
or under them such that they can push down a bit when loaded.

[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> You might only get deflection of the tongue when there is force
> applied...

In fact I wasn't testing the right area. The board that shifted wasn't
damaged at all: it's the adjacent board. Though its tongue appeared intact,
one length of it is completely separated: it's held in place by the
still-attached tongue either side of it which is why I didn't immediately
notice it.

So a second plank has to come up, I think - a rather less daunting process
now I've dome a previous one.

> Chances are there is a dip either visible at the top of the UFH panels, or
> under them such that they can push down a bit when loaded.

Another discovery this morning: there's no deflection at all in the UFH
panel but one area of the flooring isn't laying flat against it. With the
t&g intact it wasn't particularly noticeable but once one plank was freed to
move independently downwards it became immediately apparent.

I wonder if laminate laid over UFH needs more expansion room than the norm?
If that's the case, and if the fitters didn't leave enough space against the
walls, then the problem becomes a bigger one, given that the L-shaped
kitchen units are masking all the edges.

[Bert Coules]

Tim Lamb wrote:

> If the problem was the left hand edge in your picture, the board has less
> support there because it coincides with a pipe run.

Actually it was the right hand edge. But see my post a minute or so ago in
answer to John Rumm for more details.

[John Rumm]

On 18/11/2017 11:49, Bert Coules wrote:
> John Rumm wrote:
>
>> You might only get deflection of the tongue when there is force
>> applied...
>
> In fact I wasn't testing the right area. The board that shifted wasn't
> damaged at all: it's the adjacent board. Though its tongue appeared
> intact, one length of it is completely separated: it's held in place by
> the still-attached tongue either side of it which is why I didn't
> immediately notice it.

I had a feeling that might be the case...

> So a second plank has to come up, I think - a rather less daunting
> process now I've dome a previous one.
>
>> Chances are there is a dip either visible at the top of the UFH
>> panels, or under them such that they can push down a bit when loaded.
>
> Another discovery this morning: there's no deflection at all in the UFH
> panel but one area of the flooring isn't laying flat against it. With
> the t&g intact it wasn't particularly noticeable but once one plank was
> freed to move independently downwards it became immediately apparent.

Which kind of suggests the UFH is just following the (uneven) sub floor
its sat on. Packing out under the new laminate boards in the low spots
should fix it.

>
> I wonder if laminate laid over UFH needs more expansion room than the
> norm?

As long as it has some it should be ok. The total movement is not going
to be much in absolute terms unless the floor area is huge.

> If that's the case, and if the fitters didn't leave enough space
> against the walls, then the problem becomes a bigger one, given that the
> L-shaped kitchen units are masking all the edges.
>
>

[Tim Lamb]

In message <HaKdnfQ5HcULg43H...@brightview.co.uk>, Bert
Coules <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> writes

Yes.

Can you see if the other end of the flooring is tight to the
skirting/wall? It might be easier to adjust there than struggle under
the units.

--
Tim Lamb

[Bert Coules]

Tim Lamb wrote:

> Can you see if the other end of the flooring is tight to the
> skirting/wall? It might be easier to adjust there than struggle under the
> units.

Thanks for the thought, but unfortunately the other edges are under
skirting. However, with a mirror, a stick and some undignified lying
full-length on the floor, I've been able to establish that there's a good
space on at least one of the kitchen walls. The other is hidden behind
plumbing.

[Bert Coules]

John, thanks for that. A bit of experimentation has revealed that judicious
packing does seem to eliminate the movement. The problem now is that the
replacement plank, even with its t&g edging trimmed on three sides, doesn't
want to go back into the space left by the old one, general movement over
the whole floor being to blame, I suspect.

[John Rumm]

They are usually a fairly tight fit, so you may need to tap it into
place with a block and a hammer.

[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> They are usually a fairly tight fit, so you may need to tap it into place
> with a block and a hammer.

For fairly tight read impossible, and for tap it into place read shave a
(very small) bit off one long edge. Fixing the deflection deprived the
plank of its original full-width, non-flat-lying home, I think.

And now the job is done, everything is back in place and the floor doesn't
flex beneath my feet any more. Many thanks to everyone who chipped in with
ideas, thoughts and suggestions: all much appreciated.

There's still movement elsewhere in the area, caused I reckon by the
un-flatness of the underlying floorboards; I wouldn't be entirely surprised
if another t&g join were to fail some time in the future. But I'll be ready
for it next time...