PV solar

[williamwright]

Comments please, from anyone who has had panels on the roof for a number
of years. Pros and cons? Pitfalls? Economics?

Bill

[The Other John]

I've had them since late 2011. They were more expensive then than now, my
installation cost £11,500, but the F.I.T. was higher than now and remains
higher than for later installations. To date I've received £20k+ in
F.I.T. and before the usual moaners complain don't forget I pay 'green
taxes' too, so I'm getting my own back and a bit more. The only expense
I've had was when pidgeons started nesting between the panels and the
tiles and the soggy nest material caused one panel to develop a low
resistance which stopped the inverter starting up at sunrise. I got the
installer in and after checking the system he said the duff panel needed
replacing and that needed £600 worth of scaffolding. When they replaced
the panel I had them install wire mesh round the outside of the array to
stop birds getting in. The total bill was £2k+, so I'm still in profit.
Another plus is that I import less leccy in daylight so there's a saving
there as well.

--
TOJ.

[John Rumm]

On 01/05/2022 16:20, williamwright wrote:

> Comments please, from anyone who has had panels on the roof for a number
> of years. Pros and cons? Pitfalls? Economics?

From the point of view of energy saving or revenue generation? Also
with or without storage?


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[alan_m]

On 01/05/2022 19:26, John Rumm wrote:
> On 01/05/2022 16:20, williamwright wrote:
>
>> Comments please, from anyone who has had panels on the roof for a
>> number of years. Pros and cons? Pitfalls? Economics?
>
> From the point of view of energy saving or revenue generation? Also
> with or without storage?
>
>

FITs payments are around 5p/kWh for new installations so cannot be
compared with those paid (and still paid) to those with older
installations.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[williamwright]

On 01/05/2022 19:26, John Rumm wrote:

> On 01/05/2022 16:20, williamwright wrote:
>
>> Comments please, from anyone who has had panels on the roof for a
>> number of years. Pros and cons? Pitfalls? Economics?
>
> From the point of view of energy saving or revenue generation? Also
> with or without storage?
>
>

Just to save money. Batteries a possibility.

Bill

[RJH]

On 1 May 2022 at 19:26:44 BST, "John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null>
wrote:

> On 01/05/2022 16:20, williamwright wrote:
>
>> Comments please, from anyone who has had panels on the roof for a number
>> of years. Pros and cons? Pitfalls? Economics?
>
> From the point of view of energy saving or revenue generation? Also
> with or without storage?

Environmental impact, practicality (planning, aspect etc.), value of home,
aesthetics, reliability and maintenance . . .

--
Cheers, Rob

[Clive Page]

On 01/05/2022 16:20, williamwright wrote:

> Comments please, from anyone who has had panels on the roof for a number of years. Pros and cons? Pitfalls? Economics?

We've had ~4kW of panels on our roof from just before the FIT payments were reduced, maybe 8 years ago. It has generated slightly more than the predicted amount of power averaged over the year every year, despite slight shading by a tree during winter months, and has been completely trouble-free so far. It paid for the installation a year or two back. FIT payments much lower now, but so are the costs of solar panels. Whether it's still economical: you have to do the calculations.

The only downside is getting junk mail and phone calls from time to time from dodgy firms who have got our address from somewhere and want to sell us maintenance/cleaning/new inverter etc.


--
Clive Page

[williamwright]

On 02/05/2022 16:41, Clive Page wrote:
> The only downside is getting junk mail and phone calls from time to time
> from dodgy firms who have got our address from somewhere and want to
> sell us maintenance/cleaning/new inverter etc.

They look on Google maps for solar panels.

Bill

[Chris J Dixon]

I think it is easier than that, they simply (mis)use the national
database of installations.

My 2010 installation is 3.64 kWp, performs slightly better than
the predictions, and has generated over 40 MWh. The original cost
was around £14.5k, and currently I am over £9k in profit.

No problems to date.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

[ajh]

From my limited experience since last October I would say the battery
is what makes PV worthwhile in the absence of subsidies.

I have not imported electricity since March 5th ( not quite true as
there is always a 1/3 unit imported because of the way the PV and
battery are not quick enough to compare currents) and my consumption is
about 7-8kWh/day so the battery is a major contributor to a £2.4/day
saving and I expect that to be true for 8 or 9 months of the year.

Most days I can enjoy a hot bath heated by the immersion so have saved a
further amount on gas too.

Prices and demand have increased since my battery was installed but the
PV and battery could be had then for £8k, so a payback of around 13
years currently but is likely to get better, the panels should be good
for 20 and the battery is warranted for 10 IIRC.

[alan_m]

On 02/05/2022 20:25, Chris J Dixon wrote:
> williamwright wrote:
>
>> On 02/05/2022 16:41, Clive Page wrote:
>>> The only downside is getting junk mail and phone calls from time to time
>>> from dodgy firms who have got our address from somewhere and want to
>>> sell us maintenance/cleaning/new inverter etc.
>>
>> They look on Google maps for solar panels.
>
> I think it is easier than that, they simply (mis)use the national
> database of installations.
>
> My 2010 installation is 3.64 kWp, performs slightly better than
> the predictions, and has generated over 40 MWh. The original cost
> was around £14.5k, and currently I am over £9k in profit.

I assume that you got high FITs payments for all the electricity you
generated (and used yourself). This type and amount of FITs payment
cannot be factored into a new installation in the same way.

[Paul]

What kind of battery capacity is that ?

I'm curious as to what ratio of panels to battery you set up.

Paul

[Chris J Dixon]

You are correct. I was simply responding to the OP's question:

>Comments please, from anyone who has had panels on the roof for a number
>of years. Pros and cons? Pitfalls? Economics?

[Reentrant]

On 01/05/2022 16:20, williamwright wrote:

Don't bother if there's any chance you will move in the next 20 - 25
years. We found they added very little to the value of the property
(even with a reasonably generous, transferrable 2013 FIT).

--
Reentrant

[ajh]

On 03/05/2022 04:12, Paul wrote:
> What kind of battery capacity is that ?
>
> I'm curious as to what ratio of panels to battery you set up.
>
>    Paul

It's a Growatt 6kWh and after a minor teething problem is working well.
Programming doesn't seem that straightforward but as I do not have a
cheap offpeak tariff to charge it by yet, I'll have to cross that bridge...

In the mean time it just works and even on a cloudy day like now I am
receiving 0.5kW and the battery sits at 60% by mid morning, it only
discharges to 10% then would draw from the grid but started today at 40%.

In mid December I am lucky to even get 1kWh from the panels but even so
most days the battery contributes into the early evening.

I had wanted to replace my Potterton Suprima 50 with a Baxi Ecogen but
they are no longer available, may have had problems, and at over £10k
installed possibly not a sensible investment for the 3-4 months it would
be needed even when last available in 2016, I'd like to know how people
got on with them.

Doubling the battery capacity (and price) simply does not make sense in
my case but it may if you have an EV.

I agree that this is for the long haul and not likely to add value to a
house sale plus I shall probably not live long enough to see a payback.

It's a gamble that has done well for me so far.

[ajh]

I forgot to say it is a 4kW peak array and I cannot remember seeing more
than 3kW produced. It is far from ideally oriented as WSW and averages
3MWh annually.

[Andrew]

On 02/05/2022 23:14, ajh wrote:
> On 02/05/2022 03:17, williamwright wrote:
>> On 01/05/2022 19:26, John Rumm wrote:
>>> On 01/05/2022 16:20, williamwright wrote:
>>>
>>>> Comments please, from anyone who has had panels on the roof for a
>>>> number of years. Pros and cons? Pitfalls? Economics?
>>>
>>>  From the point of view of energy saving or revenue generation? Also
>>> with or without storage?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Just to save money. Batteries a possibility.
>>
>> Bill
>
>
>  From my limited experience since last October I would say the battery
> is what makes PV worthwhile in the absence of subsidies.
>
> I have not imported electricity since March 5th ( not quite true as
> there is always a 1/3 unit imported because of the way the PV and
> battery are not quick enough to compare currents) and my consumption is
> about 7-8kWh/day so the battery is a major contributor to a £2.4/day
> saving and I expect that to be true for 8 or 9 months of the year.
>
> Most days I can enjoy a hot bath heated by the immersion so have saved a
>  further amount on gas too.
>

Do you have a private well, or are you on a water meter ?

[Andrew]

On 02/05/2022 20:25, Chris J Dixon wrote:

> williamwright wrote:
>
>> On 02/05/2022 16:41, Clive Page wrote:
>>> The only downside is getting junk mail and phone calls from time to time
>>> from dodgy firms who have got our address from somewhere and want to
>>> sell us maintenance/cleaning/new inverter etc.
>>
>> They look on Google maps for solar panels.
>
> I think it is easier than that, they simply (mis)use the national
> database of installations.
>
> My 2010 installation is 3.64 kWp, performs slightly better than
> the predictions, and has generated over 40 MWh. The original cost
> was around £14.5k, and currently I am over £9k in profit.
>
> No problems to date.
>
> Chris

If you had bought £14.5K of shares in Scottish Mortgage IT then
you would now have about £94K in investments even at todays
much-corrected nasdaq valuations.

If you had sold them last October you would have about £160K
in the bank :-(

[alan_m]

On 03/05/2022 14:48, Andrew wrote:

> If you had bought £14.5K of shares in Scottish Mortgage IT then
> you would now have about £94K in investments even at todays
> much-corrected nasdaq valuations.
>
> If you had sold them last October you would have about £160K
> in the bank :-(

So how much did you make on these shares :)

[Theo]

Andrew <Andrew9...@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
> If you had bought £14.5K of shares in Scottish Mortgage IT then
> you would now have about £94K in investments even at todays
> much-corrected nasdaq valuations.
>
> If you had sold them last October you would have about £160K
> in the bank :-(

Or you could have roughly £0, had they tanked (hello Equitable Life, Arch
Cru and Woodford Equity Income). Meanwhile the FIT deal was guaranteed by
the government. Different risks, different rewards.

Theo

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 02/05/2022 23:14, ajh wrote:

> a payback of around 13 years currently but is likely to get better, the
> panels should be good for 20 and the battery is warranted for 10 IIRC.

If I cant get better than 10% on money invested I shouldn't even be trying.

--
Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
Mark Twain

[Peter Johnson]

On Mon, 02 May 2022 20:25:27 +0100, Chris J Dixon <ch...@cdixon.me.uk>
wrote:

>>
>>They look on Google maps for solar panels.
>
>I think it is easier than that, they simply (mis)use the national
>database of installations.
>

+1 I got quite cross with them a few years ago, because they don't
allow for people like me who leased the roof and don't own the panels.
(I get use of the generated electricity and there's enough on bright
days to heat the immersion tank. The first year I had the immersion
diverter installed I used no gas for hot water from May until
September but there haven't been any summers as good as that since.)

[Fredxx]

The panels also degrade over time.

[Andrew]

Nope. Almost impossible for a 5-star IT to do that. Even Woodford Equity
income 'only' lost about 30% (but not for people who invested at
the beginning). Equitable Life also never completely failed and
the people who think they have been 'hard done by' actually signed
up for *Guaranteed* annuity rates (with a capital G) which they
will and are getting. And unless you had also reinvested the SMT
dividends then you still have the money from those.

When those panels are end-of-life the nasty stuff used to make them
may well have been deemed 'toxic waste' by the government of the day
and cost £thousands to be removed by a 'licensed' contractor.
No-one knows what is in store after 2024 when Starmer is PM.

[Andrew]

And have fun selling the house too.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <VvedncgEHr_yae3_...@brightview.co.uk>,

But is that still the case with electricity prices on the up?

--
*I'm already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[www.GymRats.uk]

On 01/05/2022 16:20, williamwright wrote:
> Comments please, from anyone who has had panels on the roof for a number
> of years. Pros and cons? Pitfalls? Economics?

I had 4.62kWp array fitted on the new extension/garage roof November
2015 2 "blocks" one of 8 panels on one roof and the other of 6 panels.
At the time the panels were the latest tech offering 330Wp each and
significantly more expensive than the normal 220Wp but I wanted the
maximum possible output in the space available.

Solar Installer said it was unlikely to recover the additional costs but
little did he know that our old mechanical electric meter would very
accurately reflect the power flow, The spinning disk slowing down to the
point of stalling when production was the same as consumption, and
running backwards when consumption was lower than production and power
was flowing out to our neighbours.

typically March through to the end of October my electricity meter
readings are lower than the previous months as our meter racks up a
virtual "credit" a bit like having 100% efficient and constantly
adapting battery without either the cost or having to make sure the
stored power is used every day.

So far it's generated nearly 28 MegaWatt hours and had completely paid
for its self by June last year. Since then it's returned over £1000 over
cost.
That said, if you were conned into getting a "smart" meter the return on
investment will be significantly longer if actually recoverable and the
huge cost of limited life, limited capacity battery storage is also
unlikely to ever return expenditure.

Most folks without mechanical meters end up dumping excess power via
immersion heater into a hot water tank thereby only saving the much
lower cost of equivalent gas units.

Logs to date with current, daily, monthly, yearly and total output can
be seen on the following page:
http://www.ginlongmonitoring.com/Terminal/TerminalMain.aspx?pid=10576

[NY]

"www.GymRats.uk" <nor...@here.con> wrote in message
news:t63jgn$urt$1...@dont-email.me...

So can meters with a digital display not decrement the reading if you
generate more than you consume?

With a mechanical meter, during a given period of time (eg 1 day):

- if you consume 10 kWhr and generate 5 kWhr, are you charged for 5 kWhr?

- if you consume and generate 5 kWhr, are you charged 0 (meter reading stays
constant)?

- if you consume 5 kWhr and generate 10 kWhr, are you credited with 5 kWhr?

Or is a kWhr that you generate "worth" less than a kWhr that you consume
from the grid, in terms of offsetting grid consumption and crediting for
contributing back to the grid?


When you talk about a smart meter, do you literally mean a smart meter with
the ability to communicate the meter readings to the electricity company, or
are you including dumb meters that happen to have a digital display rather
than a spinning disc and analogue dials?

[alan_m]

On 18/05/2022 22:00, NY wrote:

>
> - if you consume 10 kWhr and generate 5 kWhr, are you charged for 5 kWhr?

I suspect that he received payment at a very favourable rate all solar
electricity generated both consumed on the premises and exported back to
the grid.

These schemes have since ended.

[Andy Burns]

NY wrote:

> So can meters with a digital display not decrement the reading if you generate
> more than you consume?

Generally not, they might flash up "RED" for reverse energy detected, but
they're not supposed to deduct it from energy consumed, that would be
over-generous as you'd get "paid" about 27p/kWh exported.

You can have a separate export meter that does tally up the exported units, if
you installed years ago on FIT they'll pay you ££/kWh, but now you can only go
onto SEG at about 3p/kWh, or you might get diddly squat for exports ...

[Chris J Dixon]

www.GymRats.uk wrote:

>I had 4.62kWp array fitted on the new extension/garage roof November
>2015 2 "blocks" one of 8 panels on one roof and the other of 6 panels.
>At the time the panels were the latest tech offering 330Wp each and
>significantly more expensive than the normal 220Wp but I wanted the
>maximum possible output in the space available.
>
>Solar Installer said it was unlikely to recover the additional costs but
>little did he know that our old mechanical electric meter would very
>accurately reflect the power flow, The spinning disk slowing down to the
>point of stalling when production was the same as consumption, and
>running backwards when consumption was lower than production and power
>was flowing out to our neighbours.
>
>typically March through to the end of October my electricity meter
>readings are lower than the previous months as our meter racks up a
>virtual "credit" a bit like having 100% efficient and constantly
>adapting battery without either the cost or having to make sure the
>stored power is used every day.

Has your supplier not raised a query about this?

The FIT application form I was given included the question "does
your meter run backwards". I appreciate that it may not
immediately be apparent, but it is then down to the supplier to
replace the meter if they see fit.

Most mechanical meters have a little ratchet on the spinning
disk. When my installation is exporting you can hear a faint buzz
from the meter.

[www.GymRats.uk]

On 19/05/2022 07:55, Chris J Dixon wrote:

> www.GymRats.uk wrote:

> Has your supplier not raised a query about this?
>
> The FIT application form I was given included the question "does
> your meter run backwards". I appreciate that it may not
> immediately be apparent, but it is then down to the supplier to
> replace the meter if they see fit.
>
> Most mechanical meters have a little ratchet on the spinning
> disk. When my installation is exporting you can hear a faint buzz
> from the meter.

I was with "Outfox The Market" for the first few years and "So" since
then. Never had a query or concern raised, I always submit last moths
reading +1kWh to ensure there's always a detectable (billable) charge.
No-one knows that I don't have a huge bank of batteries.

Not having the gas boiler working for the last month might raise greater
concern though as our gas consumption should be zero!

Presumably my meter pre-dates those with a back-stop. I mentioned in a
comment elsewhere and lots of folks came back reporting the same findings.

On the FIT form there was indeed the question, but having installed the
panels in November it didn't become apparent for at least 4 months.

Only visits from 3rd parties is for the bi-annual export meter reading
and they're only interested in total exported figure and serial number.

It's not "theft" from the power companies because they're not paying me
for the energy that I'm returning to the grid but is still being billed
to neighbours receiving it.

[www.GymRats.uk]

On 18/05/2022 23:16, alan_m wrote:
> On 18/05/2022 22:00, NY wrote:
>
>>
>> - if you consume 10 kWhr and generate 5 kWhr, are you charged for 5 kWhr?
>
> I suspect that he received payment at a very favourable rate all solar
> electricity generated both consumed on the premises and exported back to
> the grid.
>
> These schemes have since ended.

Didn't see the original poster but for me then yes, only 5 kWh is
recorded on the meter.

The FIT export rate for me is (off the top of my head) around 3p per
unit but it's then assumed you use 50% of all energy produced so the
quarterly payment is 1.5p per unit "produced" whether used or not.

FIT is a stupid idea. For domestic solar it should have been done like
America which is exactly how mine works, you don't get paid for exported
power you just get credited on a unit basis rather than a financial
value. By far the fairest way for everyone and those without panels
wouldn't feel like their "green tax" was going into the pockets of
micro-generation sites.