How does Part P help?

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Broadback

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Apr 7, 2005, 3:22:03 PM4/7/05
to
First a law only works if the majority abide by it, that I think will
not happen with part P. Also "professional" electricians can be as bad
as the worst DIYer. I am working on my daughters house in Manchester.
The previous occupant was an elderly lady (ripe for rip-off). Speaking
to one of her sons he tells me that she had the immersion heater, and
some other electrical work done by a electrical installation company of
some standing. Just started on the second bedroom, took out the old
airing cupboard and wiring for the immersion heater. On tracing it I
found that to save running a new wire up to it they simply disconnected
one side of the ring main from the distribution box and ring then used
that for the immersion heater. Nice money saver eh?

Adrian C

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Apr 8, 2005, 11:41:16 AM4/8/05
to
Broadback wrote:

> First a law only works if the majority abide by it, that I think will
> not happen with part P.

About seven years ago, an European directive on 'electromagnetic
compatibility' (EMC) came in to force, and the onus was on equipment
manufacturers to test and ensure that their products complied. However
the definition of manufacturer was a bit wide, and people who assembled
products built out of subassemblies (the PC builder community) also came
under the same regime, even though they had used 'CE' marked items in
the build (these don't guarantee a system 'pass' as other factors need
to be taken in to consideration....)

Anyway, back in 1998 the mechanics of fear*, uncertainty and doubt (FUD)
about impending prosecutions from the authorities, lead some companies
to spend thousands on radio frequency emission testing and static
discharge testing. A friend had a short job doing some of these tests -
getting some PC systems to pass without wrapping everything in copper
foil, ferrite cores and additional passive filters was a very
frustrating time for him, but it was felt necessary because it was the
Law...

As far as I know, It still is the law.

But apart from the larger PC manufacturers, the rest of the industry has
relaxed somewhat - and now it's back to the good ole pre-CE days. You
can probably cook a steak placing it next to some of the plastic
unshielded PC boxes on sale today. (Sorry, I jest - April 1st has just
gone by...)

So, similarly the observance of 'Part P' will pass, and people will
still be at risk from dodgy home electrics (never mind the bargain metal
table lamp from the car boot sale with the rubber sheathed two core
twisted flex)

--

Adrian


* - in a FUD fueled technical journal of the time, a case was cited
where someone working in a tree with a non-CE chainsaw, suffered a
distraction (and "lost a limb") when his non-CE walkie-talkie loudly
burst into life picking up radio frequency interferance from the chainsaw...

AlexW

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Apr 8, 2005, 4:45:15 PM4/8/05
to

It seems people are all Part Pee'd out ... if you look back a few weeks
in this NG you should be able to get the gist ...

Mike

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Apr 8, 2005, 5:08:14 PM4/8/05
to

"Adrian C" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:3bnn0rF...@individual.net...

> Broadback wrote:
>
> > First a law only works if the majority abide by it, that I think will
> > not happen with part P.
>
> About seven years ago, an European directive on 'electromagnetic
> compatibility' (EMC) came in to force, and the onus was on equipment
> manufacturers to test and ensure that their products complied. However
> the definition of manufacturer was a bit wide, and people who assembled
> products built out of subassemblies (the PC builder community) also came
> under the same regime, even though they had used 'CE' marked items in
> the build (these don't guarantee a system 'pass' as other factors need
> to be taken in to consideration....)
>
> Anyway, back in 1998 the mechanics of fear*, uncertainty and doubt (FUD)
> about impending prosecutions from the authorities, lead some companies
> to spend thousands on radio frequency emission testing and static
> discharge testing. A friend had a short job doing some of these tests -
> getting some PC systems to pass without wrapping everything in copper
> foil, ferrite cores and additional passive filters was a very
> frustrating time for him, but it was felt necessary because it was the
> Law...
>
> As far as I know, It still is the law.

It is.

> But apart from the larger PC manufacturers, the rest of the industry has
> relaxed somewhat - and now it's back to the good ole pre-CE days. You
> can probably cook a steak placing it next to some of the plastic
> unshielded PC boxes on sale today.

Yes - but the compenents - specifically the PSUs - have improved
dramatically. A home assembled PC possibly still fails but at least it
won't be so far out now.


The Natural Philosopher

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Apr 9, 2005, 6:44:34 AM4/9/05
to
AlexW wrote:

I asked a BCO about tis yesterday. He seemd very relaxed, and suggested
I simply fiill in some forms and self register myself as a competent person.

'as long as we can see your wiring before its plastered up, it should be
fine'

Miketew

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Apr 9, 2005, 1:17:56 PM4/9/05
to

The Natural Philosopher Wrote:
> AlexW wrote:
> -
> Broadback wrote:
> -

> First a law only works if the majority abide by it, that I think will
> not happen with part P. Also "professional" electricians can be as
> bad as the worst DIYer. I am working on my daughters house in
> Manchester. The previous occupant was an elderly lady (ripe for
> rip-off). Speaking to one of her sons he tells me that she had the
> immersion heater, and some other electrical work done by a electrical
> installation company of some standing. Just started on the second
> bedroom, took out the old airing cupboard and wiring for the
> immersion
> heater. On tracing it I found that to save running a new wire up to
> it they simply disconnected one side of the ring main from the
> distribution box and ring then used that for the immersion heater.
> Nice money saver eh?-

>
>
> It seems people are all Part Pee'd out ... if you look back a few
> weeks
> in this NG you should be able to get the gist ...-

>
> I asked a BCO about tis yesterday. He seemd very relaxed, and
> suggested
> I simply fiill in some forms and self register myself as a competent
> person.
>
> 'as long as we can see your wiring before its plastered up, it should
> be
> fine'


He doesn't know what he is talking about. You can't register as a
competent person, only companies in business can register and they
nominate a competent person/s. and looking at wiring before plastering
is not required, he sounds more dangerous than the DIyers. You are
supposed to tell them before starting the work and they stuff you for a
registration fee, then when it is complete you are not allowed to
energise the circuit until it has been inspected and tested by a
competent persom appointed by the BCO who will energise it when he is
satisfied and you pay the examination fee. This all costs the same as
getting a registered spark to do it for you, generally.
As for our friend who asked the question, if the company was NICEIC
registered tell them and they will take the issue up. No electrician
should be taking any shortcuts, thats if it really was done by a
company. I was involved in a similar instance some time ago and when
all came to all the guy had done it himself after other work had been
done by the company properly and he was trying to pass the blame on,
when it caused a small fire.


--
Miketew

Andy Hall

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Apr 10, 2005, 5:48:38 AM4/10/05
to
On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 18:17:56 +0100, Miketew
<Miketew...@news.diybanter.com> wrote:

>
>The Natural Philosopher Wrote:

>>
>> It seems people are all Part Pee'd out ... if you look back a few
>> weeks
>> in this NG you should be able to get the gist ...-
>>
>> I asked a BCO about tis yesterday. He seemd very relaxed, and
>> suggested
>> I simply fiill in some forms and self register myself as a competent
>> person.
>>
>> 'as long as we can see your wiring before its plastered up, it should
>> be
>> fine'
>
>
>He doesn't know what he is talking about.

From the legal perspective that is true. The practical point was
that he was not bothered about it, probably because he realises that
in comparison with what can happen if a house is not constructed
correctly, there isn't a problem to solve.

>You can't register as a
>competent person, only companies in business can register and they
>nominate a competent person/s. and looking at wiring before plastering
>is not required, he sounds more dangerous than the DIyers.

You are making the assumption that DIYers are dangerous. There is no
evidence to support that DIY fixed wiring work is a cause of fires or
electrocutions in any meaningful quantity.


>You are
>supposed to tell them before starting the work and they stuff you for a
>registration fee, then when it is complete you are not allowed to
>energise the circuit until it has been inspected and tested by a
>competent persom appointed by the BCO who will energise it when he is
>satisfied and you pay the examination fee. This all costs the same as
>getting a registered spark to do it for you, generally.

This is the NICEIC propaganda on the subject.


>As for our friend who asked the question, if the company was NICEIC
>registered tell them and they will take the issue up. No electrician
>should be taking any shortcuts, thats if it really was done by a
>company.

I hadn't noticed that the Statutory Instrument amending the Building
Regulations or even the Approved Documents appointed NICEIC as the
policeman for all of this. Also, contrary to what NICEIC may think,
there are a number of other approved self certification schemes, so it
should not imagine that it has an exclusive. You aren't in their
marketing department are you?


>I was involved in a similar instance some time ago and when
>all came to all the guy had done it himself after other work had been
>done by the company properly and he was trying to pass the blame on,
>when it caused a small fire.

You must have been very fortunate to find one of the handful of fires
that occur each year from fixed wiring.

--

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Wade

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Apr 10, 2005, 8:23:17 AM4/10/05
to
Miketew wrote:

> He doesn't know what he is talking about. You can't register as a
> competent person, only companies in business can register and they
> nominate a competent person/s.

Not necessarily. As I've mentioned in another thread recently, NAPIT
(the National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers) have
advertised a Part P scheme aimed at qualified individuals working on
their own property or doing jobs for friends and relations. This allows
you to self-certify up to eight notifications per year for a reduced
membership fee (GBP 185 pa, from memory, plus 55 quid for the initial
assessment). I'm still waiting for them to reply to my e-mail asking
for full details.

See also
http://www.electricaltimes.co.uk/news/article.asp?articleid=4094

> and looking at wiring before plastering is not required,

Others have reported inspection being required at first-fix stage, so I
wouldn't be so sure about saying that.

--
Andy

Chris

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Apr 10, 2005, 7:40:14 AM4/10/05
to
Andy Wade wrote:

> Not necessarily. As I've mentioned in another thread recently, NAPIT
> (the National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers) have
> advertised a Part P scheme aimed at qualified individuals working on
> their own property or doing jobs for friends and relations. This allows
> you to self-certify up to eight notifications per year for a reduced
> membership fee (GBP 185 pa, from memory, plus 55 quid for the initial
> assessment). I'm still waiting for them to reply to my e-mail asking
> for full details.
>

Very interesting - good job you reposted the info, because I must have
missed your original thread. I'd be intersetd to hear what details you
get from them, as there is not much on their website.

Cheers

Chris

--
Cut along the dotted line to reply

Andy Wade

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Apr 10, 2005, 9:33:50 AM4/10/05
to
Chris wrote:

> Very interesting - good job you reposted the info, because I must have
> missed your original thread.

It was in the thread titled "Total newby has urgent query."

> I'd be intersetd to hear what details you
> get from them, as there is not much on their website.

I'll follow-up here when I get some info.

--
Andy

Chris

unread,
Apr 10, 2005, 9:13:06 AM4/10/05
to
Andy Wade wrote:

> Chris wrote:
>
>> I'd be interested to hear what details you get from them, as there is

>> not much on their website.
>
>
> I'll follow-up here when I get some info.
>

Thanks Andy - it's not that I have any rewiring to do at the moment,
it's just nice to know I have another option if/when the time comes.

Cheers,

Miketew

unread,
Apr 10, 2005, 12:40:40 PM4/10/05
to

Andy Hall Wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 18:17:56 +0100, Miketew
> Miketew...@news.diybanter.com wrote:
> -
>
> The Natural Philosopher Wrote:-
> --

>
> It seems people are all Part Pee'd out ... if you look back a few
> weeks
> in this NG you should be able to get the gist ...-
>
> I asked a BCO about tis yesterday. He seemd very relaxed, and
> suggested
> I simply fiill in some forms and self register myself as a competent
> person.
>
> 'as long as we can see your wiring before its plastered up, it should
> be
> fine'-
>
>
> He doesn't know what he is talking about.-

>
> From the legal perspective that is true. The practical point was
> that he was not bothered about it, probably because he realises that
> in comparison with what can happen if a house is not constructed
> correctly, there isn't a problem to solve.
> -

> You can't register as a
> competent person, only companies in business can register and they
> nominate a competent person/s. and looking at wiring before plastering
> is not required, he sounds more dangerous than the DIyers.-

>
> You are making the assumption that DIYers are dangerous. There is no
> evidence to support that DIY fixed wiring work is a cause of fires or
> electrocutions in any meaningful quantity.
>
> -

> You are
> supposed to tell them before starting the work and they stuff you for
> a
> registration fee, then when it is complete you are not allowed to
> energise the circuit until it has been inspected and tested by a
> competent persom appointed by the BCO who will energise it when he is
> satisfied and you pay the examination fee. This all costs the same as
> getting a registered spark to do it for you, generally.-

>
> This is the NICEIC propaganda on the subject.
>
> -

> As for our friend who asked the question, if the company was NICEIC
> registered tell them and they will take the issue up. No electrician
> should be taking any shortcuts, thats if it really was done by a
> company.-

>
> I hadn't noticed that the Statutory Instrument amending the Building
> Regulations or even the Approved Documents appointed NICEIC as the
> policeman for all of this. Also, contrary to what NICEIC may think,
> there are a number of other approved self certification schemes, so it
> should not imagine that it has an exclusive. You aren't in their
> marketing department are you?
>
> -

> I was involved in a similar instance some time ago and when
> all came to all the guy had done it himself after other work had been
> done by the company properly and he was trying to pass the blame on,
> when it caused a small fire.-

>
> You must have been very fortunate to find one of the handful of fires
> that occur each year from fixed wiring.
>
>
>
> --
>
> ..andy

>
> To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
You read but obviously didn't understand what i said ( and I'm not an
NIC supporter) If the firm was NIC registered then they would take up
the issue of poor work. Not hard to follow.
I see dangerous wiring every week and it is all DIY work not done by
qualified electricians. that doesnt mean all electricians are saints
but they do understand the dangers involved in not doing things
correctly. Not hard to understand.

There arent a huge number of fires each year but there are some
attributed to electrical faults, The point I made was this guy had done
the wrong thing and attempted to blame a legit company for it and it
happens often. Not hard to understan.

You obviously have knowledge and have read the regs from end to end but
seem to spend more time being contentious than helpful which is sad.
In some cases people can and do do electricl work ok but in the main
because they do not have in depth knowledge of the subject of
electrical installation, they make mistakes or assumptions that are
potentially dangerous. I dont like part P and anyone with sense can see
its more to do with tax revenue than safety issues. but it is there and
it is law and encouraging people to flout it is irresponsible.


--
Miketew

Andy Hall

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Apr 10, 2005, 2:16:56 PM4/10/05
to
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:40:40 +0100, Miketew
<Miketew...@news.diybanter.com> wrote:

>

>>

>You read but obviously didn't understand what i said ( and I'm not an
>NIC supporter) If the firm was NIC registered then they would take up
>the issue of poor work. Not hard to follow.

Possibly, but they are meant to be operating a self certification
scheme, not acting as police with regard to the legislation.


>I see dangerous wiring every week and it is all DIY work not done by
>qualified electricians. that doesnt mean all electricians are saints
>but they do understand the dangers involved in not doing things
>correctly. Not hard to understand.

I find it very hard to believe that *all* of the bad work that you
claim that you see is attributable to DIY. The competent DIYer has a
far greater commitment to doing good and safe work than an unqualified
cowboy. You don't mention the cowboys which this legislation is
supposed to put out of business and of course won't. You are also
assuming that a qualified electrician is going to understand the
dangers in not doing something properly. That's a very big
assumption.

>
>There arent a huge number of fires each year but there are some
>attributed to electrical faults, The point I made was this guy had done
>the wrong thing and attempted to blame a legit company for it and it
>happens often. Not hard to understan.

No it isn't, and I wasn't condoning it.


>
>You obviously have knowledge and have read the regs from end to end but
>seem to spend more time being contentious than helpful which is sad.

If you had taken the trouble to read the thread and the topic, you
would have realised that this *is* a contentious issue and that most
people here who realise what has been going on and have taken the
trouble to point out to the government that the basis is flawed, are
somewhat underwhelmed by it.


>In some cases people can and do do electricl work ok but in the main
>because they do not have in depth knowledge of the subject of
>electrical installation, they make mistakes or assumptions that are
>potentially dangerous.

That's a ridiculous and sweeping statement which is not supported by
fact or outcome.


>I dont like part P and anyone with sense can see
>its more to do with tax revenue than safety issues. but it is there and
>it is law and encouraging people to flout it is irresponsible.

Nobody is encouraging anybody to flout the law, but simply pointing
out that in this case that it is an ass. The original basis for
implementing it was flawed, the statistics were cooked, the wrong
thing was implemented and the official bodies who are meant to police
it aren't interested. All of this was entirely predictable.

The only parties who actually wanted it were the trade organisations
who saw it as a way to secure work at a higher price for their members
and a government who want to regulate as much as they can and bring
the trades into the tax system. All of this was when there wasn't a
problem to solve in the first place.

--

timycelyn

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Apr 10, 2005, 2:41:10 PM4/10/05
to

"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:kfqi515nlpld7eg2k...@4ax.com...

Andy, hear, hear - a nice crisp summary of a complete and utter mess!

Cheers

Tim


Owain

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Apr 10, 2005, 2:19:58 PM4/10/05
to
Miketew wrote:
> In some cases people can and do do electricl work ok but in the main
> because they do not have in depth knowledge of the subject of
> electrical installation, they make mistakes or assumptions that are
> potentially dangerous.

Then it is better that we educate them instead of blindly wibbling on
about Part Pee, so that such people can make an informed decision about
what to do, instead of thinking that we're unhelpful yes-men for nanny
Prescott.

> I dont like part P and anyone with sense can see
> its more to do with tax revenue than safety issues. but it is there and
> it is law and encouraging people to flout it is irresponsible.

No, encouraging people to conform with Part P is irresponsible when that
leads to dangerous practices like extension leads etc.

Owain


Miketew

unread,
Apr 10, 2005, 4:23:58 PM4/10/05
to

Andy Wade Wrote:
> Miketew wrote:
> -

> He doesn't know what he is talking about. You can't register as a
> competent person, only companies in business can register and they
> nominate a competent person/s.-

>
> Not necessarily. As I've mentioned in another thread recently, NAPIT
> (the National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers) have
> advertised a Part P scheme aimed at qualified individuals working on
> their own property or doing jobs for friends and relations. This
> allows
> you to self-certify up to eight notifications per year for a reduced
> membership fee (GBP 185 pa, from memory, plus 55 quid for the initial
> assessment). I'm still waiting for them to reply to my e-mail asking
> for full details.
>
> See also
> http://www.electricaltimes.co.uk/news/article.asp?articleid=4094
> -
> and looking at wiring before plastering is not required,-

>
> Others have reported inspection being required at first-fix stage, so
> I
> wouldn't be so sure about saying that.
>
> --
> Andy
fair enough Andy although Napit have been slapped by opdm and told to
work within the rules as they are and have had to pull their Fastrack
approval where if you were ( or claimed to be) qualified electrician,
you could self certify until they got round to visiting you. As the
rules atnd you have to register and pay up front then be assesed etc, I
really can't see anyone happily paying out £500 quid just to be able to
rewire a few sockets or whatever. they have also jumped on the idea tht
you can certify someone elses work. The looking at the wiring at first
fix I would fully supporta nd some may well do it but they would be
breaking the law to then sign it off, which was the point I was making.
It has to be tested as you know in line with BS7671 as well. The whole
thing is a complete mess, if they were serious about afety they would
have just made it Illegal to do it unless you were a qualified
electrician and created a national register of such people, lioke they
do on the continent. I know a lot of competent electricians who are
retiring or going into other jobs beacause they refuse to join in this
crap. I unfortunately don't have tha option and have jumped through all
the hoops, but it wont really do any good as there is no real way you
can police this stupid legislation.


--
Miketew

Owain

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Apr 10, 2005, 7:53:17 PM4/10/05
to
Miketew wrote:
> ... The whole

> thing is a complete mess, if they were serious about afety they
> would have just made it Illegal to do it unless you were a
> qualified electrician and created a national register of such
> people, lioke they do on the continent.

Oh yes, they're famed for high standards of electrical safety on the
Continent. Telling us what colour cables we can use when they can't even
sort out their own.

Owain

Mike

unread,
Apr 10, 2005, 9:23:10 PM4/10/05
to

> Miketew wrote:
> > ... The whole
> > thing is a complete mess, if they were serious about afety they
> > would have just made it Illegal to do it unless you were a
> > qualified electrician and created a national register of such
> > people, lioke they do on the continent.

It's quite legal to do electrics yourself in most countries in the EU. But
when you sell the house they require a complete inspection plus in some
countries you have to make a statement guaranteeing all works are to
standard.

And what counts as a 'qualified electrician'. Joining the NIECEE or
whatever it's called doesn't cut it in my book. There are thousands of
members of the IEE and IEEE who are more than adequately qualified to do
such work but as they don't do it professionally they wouldn't join what is
a trade association (read closed shop).


Andy Wade

unread,
Apr 11, 2005, 5:39:48 AM4/11/05
to
Owain wrote:

> Oh yes, they're famed for high standards of electrical safety on the

> Continent. Telling us what colour cables we can use when [...]

They didn't really - it was only down to IEE input that we've got grey
as the third phase colour.

--
Andy

Bob Eager

unread,
Apr 11, 2005, 7:19:52 AM4/11/05
to
On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:14:53 UTC, Miketew
<Miketew...@news.diybanter.com> wrote:

> As for diyers being more dedicated, they may well be but they still dont
> have the knowledge. Electrical installation is a great deal more than

Of course, you are completely unbiased, being one of those NICEIC (or
similar) registered people.

Can you say 'closed shop'? Or 'legalised protection racket'? Clearly
it's a good chance for you to jack up your prices by (inaccurately)
trying to scare people. Nice work if you can get it.

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...dump Windows!

Owain

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Apr 11, 2005, 7:24:55 AM4/11/05
to
Miketew wrote:
> The NICEIC is not a trade body, it is a charity set up to promote
> electrical safety ,

By promoting the use of only *qualified* electricians? No, by promoting
the use of their member firms, which can have a majority of unqualified
personnel.

> As for diyers being more dedicated, they may well be but they still dont
> have the knowledge.

Don't they? Why can't they get the knowledge?

> I have already said the every week I see DIY work which frightens me
> and I have to put it right, also as a professional I am legally
> responsible for what I do

So is a DIYer, if someone gets killed or injured.

> There are plenty of cowboys, but I
> have not come across a cowboy electrician,

I have. I've come across electricians who couldn't wire a doorbell. I've
come across electricians who put in metal consumer units with no
grommets on the cable entries and then leave them unearthed, but still
stick their proud little "We're a member of NICEIC" sticker on the front
hoping for some repeat business.

The NICEIC used to produce a report of all the errors found by their
inspectors - basic errors like pendant flexes not looped round the
strain relief hooks - errors committed by electricians working for their
registered members.

> they are usually builders,
> central heating engineers, burglar alarm mechanics and sometimes
> first/second year apprentices, they do the strange and ridiculous things
> with household wiring.

All the more reason to DIY the job and do it properly.

Owain

Owain

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Apr 11, 2005, 7:26:17 AM4/11/05
to

Exactly - look at what we'd have had if we'd blindly followed Europe.

Owain


dmc

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Apr 11, 2005, 7:40:44 AM4/11/05
to
In article <Miketew...@news.diybanter.com>,
Miketew <Miketew...@news.diybanter.com> wrote:
>
[snip]
> ... There are plenty of cowboys, but I
>have not come across a cowboy electrician, they are usually builders,

>central heating engineers, burglar alarm mechanics and sometimes
>first/second year apprentices, they do the strange and ridiculous things
>with household wiring.

Indeed.

In fact my house was previously owned by a builder/property developer. Some
of the electrics were scary: ring main jointed with choc block wrapped in
newspaper and plastered into wall, ring run around the room behind the
skirting using flex, spurs from spurs from spurs, earth spike in shed not
actually an earth spike but a steel pole that should be holding up a temp
fence with the bare cable just wrapped around the steel etc etc).

Given that he had blatently ignored the gas regs when it came to the boiler
in the front room I have no reason to believe he would be any more likely
to take notice of Part P. He is exactly the sort of person who needs to be
clamped down on and he is exactly the sort of person who will ignore it.

As it stands if I had bought this house 5 years later I wouldn't have been
allowed to correct any of his bodges - how does that make sense?

Darren

Miketew

unread,
Apr 11, 2005, 3:14:53 AM4/11/05
to

[

And what counts as a 'qualified electrician'. Joining the NIECEE or
whatever it's called doesn't cut it in my book. There are thousands
of
members of the IEE and IEEE who are more than adequately qualified to
do
such work but as they don't do it professionally they wouldn't join
what is
a trade association (read closed shop).

The NICEIC is not a trade body, it is a charity set up to promote

electrical safety , the ECA is a trade body. They did indeed promote part
P as they they only had about 14% of the trade as members between them.
they thought they would carve up the industry and share about 8-12
million in income. Fortunately this was not allowed and there are 5
certifying bodies.


As for diyers being more dedicated, they may well be but they still dont

have the knowledge. Electrical installation is a great deal more than

just knowing electrical theory a fact which seems to elude you. Could you
be frustrated member/s of the IEE ? . Being a member of the IEE only means
you have reached a certain level of Electrical Education ( theoretical)
and are not necessarily qualified to do either Industrial or Domestic
installation, as said above there is a great deal more thn just
electrical theory involved. I have a number of friends who are still
members of the IEE and I wouldnt let them install a socket for me, but
they are brilliant engineers.

I have already said the every week I see DIY work which frightens me
and I have to put it right, also as a professional I am legally

responsible for what I do and can't abandon a ring main because the
junction box/ cable run or whatever is under the newly tiled bathroom
floor, I have to know and do whatever is necessary to make it safe/right.
The number of rings that I have to put right because they are actually
single ended daisy chains is legion. There are plenty of cowboys, but I


have not come across a cowboy electrician, they are usually builders,
central heating engineers, burglar alarm mechanics and sometimes
first/second year apprentices, they do the strange and ridiculous things

with household wiring. The training of apprentice electricians has never
been better on the academic side than it is now and the practical
training in the firms I have contact with is also very good
Some of the statements made above clearly demonstrate that you are not
doing Installation work as a living, and giving advice how ever well
meant to someone who patently doesn't understand the implications is most
definitely irresponsible ( "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" ).
The implications outside the actual electrical safety issues, are legion,
like structural integrity of building, maintaining the fire safety
integrity, running cables in defined areas, preventing failure of another
service and that failure not compromising the electrical safety, etc, etc.

I don't seek to denigrate the qualifications and abilities of other
trades / professions and neither should you, it demonstrates a very
unjustified contempt for those you see as less qualified than you.


--
Miketew

John

unread,
Apr 11, 2005, 2:59:26 PM4/11/05
to

"Mike" <mi...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:d3cjhm$v9u$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...

Quite so - the Institutions have failed most dismally to protect the
interests of the Engineers who have undergone academic and experience based
acceptance to become members. They should by definition be more competent
than the NVQ brigadebut Prescotts clueless gang don't recognise them.
Perhaps a case for "human rights" being restricted.

big...@meeow.co.uk

unread,
Apr 11, 2005, 6:32:30 PM4/11/05
to
Miketew wrote:

> As for diyers being more dedicated, they may well be but they still
dont
> have the knowledge. Electrical installation is a great deal more than
> just knowing electrical theory a fact which seems to elude you.

Feel free to explain how it is that when working on other peoples
houses we are knowledgeable professionals, yet when diying our own we
dont have the knowledge.

Then feel free to explain how the current nationwide situation with
electrical wiring is a safety problem at all, given that the deaths
from fixed wiring are so close to zero.


> Could you
> be frustrated member/s of the IEE ?

You appear to have misunderstood both the content and the motivation,
indicating a significant comprehension gap.


> I have already said the every week I see DIY work which frightens me
> and I have to put it right,

Do you know how many deaths occur per year from fixed wiring? If so,
why does what you see every week frighten you?


> The number of rings that I have to put right because they are
actually
> single ended daisy chains is legion.

You put it right for the sake of compliance, not safety. I'm not sure
you've realised that.


> There are plenty of cowboys, but I
> have not come across a cowboy electrician,

funny, as I've come across almost nothing but when it comes to domestic
wiring. Just ask them a simple question like where theyre allowed to
run wires in the plaster, over half of them cant even get that right.


NT

big...@meeow.co.uk

unread,
Apr 11, 2005, 6:39:16 PM4/11/05
to
Andy Hall wrote:

> I find it very hard to believe that *all* of the bad work that you
> claim that you see is attributable to DIY. The competent DIYer has a
> far greater commitment to doing good and safe work than an
unqualified
> cowboy. You don't mention the cowboys which this legislation is
> supposed to put out of business and of course won't. You are also
> assuming that a qualified electrician is going to understand the
> dangers in not doing something properly. That's a very big
> assumption.

I think its also a big assumption to think that they could care less.
Reality is a lot of humans couldnt give a monkeys about anything but
themselves, and the exams dont address that point in any way. The
numerous stories of general building show clearly that a lot of pros
just couldnt give a damn. DIYing eliminates most of this problem, since
you get to live with the results of your work.


NT

Miketew

unread,
Apr 12, 2005, 7:48:13 AM4/12/05
to

[ DIYing eliminates most of this problem, since

you get to live with the results of your work.


NT
No its called blissfull ignorance.
the commments from owain and A hall and others are really just an attempt
to justify their personal point of view. As for a cartel to raise prices
that is completely ridiculous there are thousands of registered
electrical installers amd they compete for work so how does that jack up
prices?. I have not raised any of my prices after spending about £500 on
registration and a bit more on incidental costs, it isn't necessary ans
my prices are extremely competitive when compared with the market rate. I
don't need to advertise as my business comes from recommendation and
repeat business so I must be doing it right. What you do display is a
complete ignorance of the day to day work of installation and a contempt
for trades men generally which is neither justified nor correct. I
personally used to earn a great deal more as a senior engineer in an
international company than I earn now or am likely to do but I am content
to earn a living and get satisfaction from a safe installation well done.
You on the other hand remind me as being the epitome of the saying, " A
man who keeps his counsel may be suspected of being a fool, but when he
opens his mouth, he removes all doubt.


--
Miketew

Andy Hall

unread,
Apr 12, 2005, 2:11:47 PM4/12/05
to
On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:48:13 +0100, Miketew
<Miketew...@news.diybanter.com> wrote:

>
>[ DIYing eliminates most of this problem, since
>you get to live with the results of your work.
>
>
>NT
>No its called blissfull ignorance.
>the commments from owain and A hall and others are really just an attempt
>to justify their personal point of view.

Not really. The statistics on the (lack of) dangers are there for
anybody to read and are from independent sources as well as the
government's own sources.

>As for a cartel to raise prices
>that is completely ridiculous there are thousands of registered
>electrical installers amd they compete for work so how does that jack up
>prices?.

There is a direct link between supply, demand and price. We know
that large numbers of electricians are not registering and are not
continuing with electrical work. There is an inevitability that
reduction in supply of "qualified" electricians together with some
people no longer doing their own work will lead to an increase in
demand and in price.

Cowboys will continue as before.


> I have not raised any of my prices after spending about £500 on
>registration and a bit more on incidental costs, it isn't necessary ans
>my prices are extremely competitive when compared with the market rate. I
>don't need to advertise as my business comes from recommendation and
>repeat business so I must be doing it right.

Possibly, or it could be that customers don't know any better and
there is a shortage of supply. What does "competitive" mean? That
you are the lowest bidder? Anybody can sell on low price and some
people are stupid enough to buy on this basis. It is no indicator of
quality of work.

>What you do display is a
>complete ignorance of the day to day work of installation and a contempt
>for trades men generally which is neither justified nor correct.

I dont think that anybody here has a contempt for good and honest
tradesmen. If you are feeling uncomfortable at the suggestion, I
would put it to you that the issue lies with you.

Besides, do you honestly expect in a DIY newsgroup that you are going
to get wide support for a position promoting hiring of tradesmen to do
electrical work which people can do perfectly safely as evidenced by
the lack of problems?

The dividing line between what is exempt and what is not in Part P is
purely arbitrary. It is completely illogical to suggest that
somebody is competent to add a socket to a spur or replace a length of
wiring but not competent to install a ring final circuit. The idiots
will screww up either way, and the capable will get it right. This is
independent of any legislation or the impact of that on what a trade
electrician might hope to gain out of it.

>I
>personally used to earn a great deal more as a senior engineer in an
>international company than I earn now or am likely to do but I am content
>to earn a living and get satisfaction from a safe installation well done.

So you're a charitable organisation now? You'll have us in tears in a
a minute.

big...@meeow.co.uk

unread,
Apr 13, 2005, 5:14:36 AM4/13/05
to
Miketew wrote:

> [ DIYing eliminates most of this problem, since
> you get to live with the results of your work.

> No its called blissfull ignorance.

You dont seem to be following this. There are 2 issues, and the above
does eliminate that one. Knowledge/ignorance is the other issue,
however the death statistics from fixed wiring show this is simply not
a problem IRL. The truth that bods like you dont like to admit is that
there is so much safety margin built into our wiring regs that even
when people get it wrong, as they do, the death rate stays very close
to zero. Again, can you tell us the annual death rate in Britain from
fixed wiring? Its kinda a key question here.


> the commments from owain and A hall and others are really just an
attempt
> to justify their personal point of view.

This topic has been discussed here in much more depth than your muddled
comments.


> As for a cartel to raise prices
> that is completely ridiculous there are thousands of registered
> electrical installers amd they compete for work so how does that jack
up
> prices?.

Its called supply and demand, basic economic concepts. Also theres the
cost of part pee inspections.


> I have not raised any of my prices after spending about £500 on
> registration and a bit more on incidental costs, it isn't necessary
ans
> my prices are extremely competitive when compared with the market
rate. I
> don't need to advertise as my business comes from recommendation and
> repeat business so I must be doing it right.

so the demand for your services is way above that in a healthy free
market, where businesses must advertise and compete.

And your business skills are so poor that you work for less than you
know you can easily get if you do a little advertising.


> What you do display is a
> complete ignorance of the day to day work of installation

Funny really.


> and a contempt
> for trades men generally

wrong again. Im not that impressed with the kind of stuff you come out
with, nor with the assorted rogues that we all know feature among
tradesmen. But no, no contempt for tradesmen generally. If they can do
a sensible job, as many can, respect. Its part of what I do, and I dont
feel any contempt for myself. :)


> which is neither justified nor correct. I
> personally used to earn a great deal more as a senior engineer in an
> international company than I earn now or am likely to do but I am
content
> to earn a living and get satisfaction from a safe installation well
done.
> You on the other hand remind me as being the epitome of the saying, "
A
> man who keeps his counsel may be suspected of being a fool, but when
he
> opens his mouth, he removes all doubt.

Sometimes ad hominem is all thats left.


NT

Mark Carver

unread,
Apr 13, 2005, 10:31:29 AM4/13/05
to
big...@meeow.co.uk wrote:
> Miketew wrote:

>
> You dont seem to be following this. There are 2 issues, and the above
> does eliminate that one. Knowledge/ignorance is the other issue,
> however the death statistics from fixed wiring show this is simply not
> a problem IRL. The truth that bods like you dont like to admit is that
> there is so much safety margin built into our wiring regs that even
> when people get it wrong, as they do, the death rate stays very close
> to zero.

Quite. You could probably walk into any house that's more than a couple
of years old, and find all sorts of non compliant practice. I have never
heard of a house fire as a result of fixed wiring errors. Plenty as a
result of daisy chained 13A adaptors etc however.

And to put things into perspective, I can walk into *any* corner shop
during October and November and purchase something that can kill, or at
the very least blow a limb off. I don't see the 'Office of the Deputy
Prime Minister' taking any action over that. (Personally I'm amazed that
fireworks are sold to the general public at all).

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply

Miketew

unread,
Apr 13, 2005, 12:48:57 PM4/13/05
to

opens his mouth, he removes all doubt.[/i][/color]

Sometimes ad hominem is all thats left.


You make it so easy , its obvious that brain, hand and commonsense are
not coincident in your case you absolutely prove the quotation1


--
Miketew

big...@meeow.co.uk

unread,
Apr 14, 2005, 7:13:00 AM4/14/05
to


If you have any genuine content, and evidence or reasoning to prove any
point, please share it with us.


NT

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