gas disconnection and scam?
John Nagelson
done for about 20 years, so it's obvious there's a leak somewhere.
Yesterday my sister called the "Smell Gas? Call us for Free" number
that's advertised all over the place by practically every company in
the industry - presumably centrally-funded. A gas guy came, found a
leak in one room and disconnected the fire there (which hasn't been
used for years). Then he sucked on his teeth and said that that hadn't
fixed the problem, and disconnected the entire supply at the mains,
and gave my mother a piece of paper to say she'd be committing a
offence if she turned it back on again.
He also said that if it were his house, he'd change everything, which
is of course the oldest way in the book of recommending that a lot of
work be done without saying in writing that he's carried out an
inspection, found the following faults, and recommends that these
specific things be done. Yes mate, sure.
It's early March. She lives in County Durham. It's freezing cold. I
was planning to get the gas fixed in the spring.
I'm going to turn it on again, regardless of whether I am breaking the
law, and then we will get the gas fixed at a time of my choosing. I'd
rather that than leave my mother, who is in her 80s, without any
heating.
Any advice?
(Just did a websearch - found sites such as
Seems that there's a hell of a lot of scamming going on in this
sector, especially against the elderly, involving unnecessary
disconnections.
John
Peter Crosland
news:0ca1354d-7d42-4b60...@o10g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
> Hi, my mother's house occasionally smells slightly of gas, and has
> done for about 20 years, so it's obvious there's a leak somewhere.
> Yesterday my sister called the "Smell Gas? Call us for Free" number
> that's advertised all over the place by practically every company in
> the industry - presumably centrally-funded. A gas guy came, found a
> leak in one room and disconnected the fire there (which hasn't been
> used for years). Then he sucked on his teeth and said that that hadn't
> fixed the problem, and disconnected the entire supply at the mains,
> and gave my mother a piece of paper to say she'd be committing a
> offence if she turned it back on again.
>
> He also said that if it were his house, he'd change everything, which
> is of course the oldest way in the book of recommending that a lot of
> work be done without saying in writing that he's carried out an
> inspection, found the following faults, and recommends that these
> specific things be done. Yes mate, sure.
>
> It's early March. She lives in County Durham. It's freezing cold. I
> was planning to get the gas fixed in the spring.
>
> I'm going to turn it on again, regardless of whether I am breaking the
> law, and then we will get the gas fixed at a time of my choosing. I'd
> rather that than leave my mother, who is in her 80s, without any
> heating.
>
> Any advice?
Yes. Don't put your mother's and other people's lives at risk by being so
arrogant. Get a second opinion from an independent expert who does not have
a financial interest in getting the work done.
Peter Crosland
John Nagelson
> Hi, my mother's house occasionally smells slightly of gas, and has
> done for about 20 years, so it's obvious there's a leak somewhere.
> Yesterday my sister called the "Smell Gas? Call us for Free" number
> that's advertised all over the place by practically every company in
> the industry - presumably centrally-funded. A gas guy came, found a
> leak in one room and disconnected the fire there (which hasn't been
> used for years). Then he sucked on his teeth and said that that hadn't
> fixed the problem, and disconnected the entire supply at the mains,
> and gave my mother a piece of paper to say she'd be committing a
> offence if she turned it back on again.
>
> He also said that if it were his house, he'd change everything, which
> is of course the oldest way in the book of recommending that a lot of
> work be done without saying in writing that he's carried out an
> inspection, found the following faults, and recommends that these
> specific things be done. Yes mate, sure.
I've just read his scrawled note, which reads "Smell of gas at fire,
Disconect [sic], Retest (so that) still leaking Cap at meter".
Not sure about the "so that" - it might say something else.
Does this mean he has capped a pipe close to the meter? (If so, does
this mean actual plumbing work, or just turning it off?) Or does it
mean he found a leak at the meter? (In the latter case, presumably the
supplier will pay, since they - or some other company - own the
meter?)
Advice would be very welcome.
John
John Nagelson
> "John Nagelson" <johnnagel...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
It isn't arrogance; it's logic. It's no more smelly now than it was 20
years ago.
Where do I find such an independent expert?
John
hugh
Crosland <g6...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
--
hugh
"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, Or who said it, Even if
I have said it, Unless it agrees with your own reason And your own
common sense." Buddha
Nightjar
It means he has undone a connection, inserted a capping disk and done
the connection up again. That is to prevent people who think they know
better simply turning the gas tap back on again. As Peter says, if you
think it has been wrongly disconnected, get a second opinion; don't just
turn the gas back on again. The fact that it has smelt of gas for 20
years does not mean it is safe, merely that your mother has been lucky
so far.
Colin Bignell
hugh
<68aa3113-094f-4ef7...@e9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, John
Nagelson <johnna...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
If he has literally disconnected at the mains rather than just turn it
off and applied a cap then yes yo would be committing an offence if you
turned it back on as you would if you do any connection work on gas.
Only a Gas Safe Registered person can do that.
If he is not a qualified person then he himself was committing an
offence.
This link might be useful
http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/help/check_an_engineer.aspx
Phil L
> Hi, my mother's house occasionally smells slightly of gas, and has
> done for about 20 years, so it's obvious there's a leak somewhere.
> Yesterday my sister called the "Smell Gas? Call us for Free" number
> that's advertised all over the place by practically every company in
> the industry - presumably centrally-funded. A gas guy came, found a
> leak in one room and disconnected the fire there (which hasn't been
And there you have it...you rang the 'gas leak' helpline, they came out and
found a leak and switched it off, end of story.
Did you think they would carry out all nessecary repairs to someone's system
free of charge? - *they are there to safeguard people's lives*, and
*nothing* else
If you want to get it fixed, call out a plumber, who will charge you
--
some diy tips, but mostly filthy jokes:
http://tipsntricks-phil.blogspot.com/
Phil L
Also, if this fire isn't used and hasn't been used for years, all you need
to do is trace the pipe back from this fire, to as close to the meter as you
can, and get someone to cut it off and cap it, the chances are the leak is
close to the end where the fire is, any gas safe plumber will probably do
this for less than £40
John Nagelson
Thanks for this info. That actually sounds like something I wouldn't
want
to fiddle with, but I'll have to research the matter. Don't worry - I
won't
let my anger cause me to put my mother at risk.
> That is to prevent people who think they know
> better simply turning the gas tap back on again.
The bastard. I'm going to fix my mother's banister next week. It's
been a bit
wobbly for years. Maybe the guy should have built a wall across her
stairway
and set a booby-trap to prevent me from removing it?
He told her if he lived in the house, the first thing he'd do would be
to get
"all the pipework" changed. "There's loads of it under the
floorboards," he said.
"Who knows where the leak is?" he asked.
That's scammers' talk.
"If I were you" is the oldest persuasion technique in the business.
Most of the pipes go to fires that haven't been used for decades. She
only
needs gas at the boiler and cooker. Whatever problem there might be,
she doesn't need "all the pipework" changed.
> Peter says, if you
> think it has been wrongly disconnected, get a second opinion; don't just
> turn the gas back on again. The fact that it has smelt of gas for 20
> years does not mean it is safe, merely that your mother has been lucky
> so far.
Please let's not get into logical arguments. The fact that I have
crossed the
road outside my house thousands of times does not mean it is safe
either;
it just means I have been lucky so far.
If I could believe in the existence of independent experts with no
financial
interest in reaching any particular conclusion, I would be happy to
pay
one say £20 to do a test. If anyone knows where I can find one, please
let me know. (Cloud cuckoo land, maybe?)
The whole set-up reminds me of how the association of electricity
supply
companies, many decades ago, obliged its members to pay something like
25% of their turnover (!!) to a public relations fund. People just had
to be
got to use electrical appliances. They could have given them away free
and still made a profit from their usage - it's like with inkjet
printers and
mobile phones. "Smell gas? Call us free!" indeed!!
I went to the GasSafe site and it's full of scare stuff aimed at
elderly people.
In fact, starting at the front page of their entire site.
John
Tabby
If you reconnect it, its a risk to life. If you leave an 80 year old
to freeze, its a risk to life. Why not just fix it.
There is a lot of gas safety scamming, but given the smell of gas,
this doesnt sound like one.
NT
John Nagelson
> In message
> <68aa3113-094f-4ef7-b7e5-d2accc44d...@e9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, John
> Nagelson <johnnagel...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
Thanks Hugh! He didn't want to give his name, and signed with a
squiggle,
but my mother did get him to give her his name. He's also entered a
7-digit number as his "Pay No."
I went to the link you mentioned, and it asks for a "Licence Card
Number",
which it also describes as an "ID number".
I entered the number he put, and got the message:
"Operative cannot be found.
Please ensure you are entering a number of 1-7 digits."
The number he gave certainly has 7 digits. But is a "Pay Number" the
same
as a "Licence Card Number"?
There are no other numbers on the piece of paper he gave my mother,
other than a "Job Voucher Number" (9 digits).
Excuse my ignorance, but what does it mean to "just turn off and apply
a cap"
rather than "literally disconnect"?
John
Phil L
>
> He told her if he lived in the house, the first thing he'd do would be
> to get
> "all the pipework" changed. "There's loads of it under the
> floorboards," he said.
> "Who knows where the leak is?" he asked.
>
> That's scammers' talk.
I see.
In what way do you think he was trying to 'scam' your mother? - by 'talking'
her into having a load of unneccesary work done? - he wouldn't be able to
price for it, nor be able to carry it out, so what would the point of that
be?
>
> "If I were you" is the oldest persuasion technique in the business.
>
> Most of the pipes go to fires that haven't been used for decades. She
> only
> needs gas at the boiler and cooker. Whatever problem there might be,
> she doesn't need "all the pipework" changed.
>
Maybe not, but if it's never been used for decades, what's the point of it
being there?
> If I could believe in the existence of independent experts with no
> financial
> interest in reaching any particular conclusion, I would be happy to
> pay
> one say £20 to do a test. If anyone knows where I can find one, please
> let me know. (Cloud cuckoo land, maybe?)
>
What do you want to spend £20 for a test to tell you what you already know -
*there's a leak in the house* - when you ring the leakline, they don't pass
your name and address onto 'dodgy derek's plumbing' - they all work for the
national grid, a national company responsible for the transportation of
gas...they don't do installations, repairs or price for work in domestic
properties
Andrew Mawson
"John Nagelson" <johnna...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0ca1354d-7d42-4b60...@o10g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
A few years back a customer 'smelled gas' in one of my landerettes and
called out British Gas, who came, said yes there was a funny smell but
couldn't source it, so turned off the supply. My commercial registered
gas man was away so I called British Gas who gave me the details of
another local one who was registered. He came, found that the smell
was acutally not gas but fluorescent tubes in their cardboard sleeves
resting against the boiler flue! Reconnected and left a suitable
certificate. When the certificate was lodged with the local authority
(as is required) it turned out he WASN'T registered despite BG
recommending him. At least he possibly prevented a small fire.
AWEM
The Natural Philosopher
dont fix it they wont pay when she blows the house to bits.
You have unfortunately opened an expensive can of worms.
Its likely it wont be insurable at all until some approved jobsworth has
signed some docket to say its all fixed, even if that means pulling up
every floorboard.
Be happy you aren't like our near neighbours, who had an oil leak under
their slab concrete floor.
11 months later, they moved back in after the floor, and 300 tonnes of
'contaminated soil' had been removed and replaced..
Man at B&Q
Is it?
Why not get a gas plumber in an price up replacing the whole lot,
without question, against tracing and fixing the leak, which could be
"who knows where".
Whilst your at it, put your tinfoil hat back on. It seesm to have
slipped.
MBQ
John Nagelson
> John Nagelson wrote:
> > Most of the pipes go to fires that haven't been used for decades. She
> > only needs gas at the boiler and cooker. Whatever problem there might
> > be, she doesn't need "all the pipework" changed.
>
> Maybe not, but if it's never been used for decades, what's the point of it
> being there?
No point whatsoever. Pipes run to where there used to be other fires
too. Pipes under all rooms except the kitchen should be capped off
near
the boiler, and could indeed be removed. But no way do they all need
to be
replaced, wherever any leak or leaks may be. She told him the position
with the fires, and that she only needs and uses gas in the kitchen.
To tell her, using a persuasion technique, that all pipes should be
*replaced* is very dodgy, in my opinion.
> > If I could believe in the existence of independent experts with no
> > financial
> > interest in reaching any particular conclusion, I would be happy to
> > pay
> > one say 20 to do a test. If anyone knows where I can find one, please
> > let me know. (Cloud cuckoo land, maybe?)
>
> What do you want to spend 20 for a test to tell you what you already know -
> *there's a leak in the house* - when you ring the leakline, they don't pass
> your name and address onto 'dodgy derek's plumbing' - they all work for the
> national grid, a national company responsible for the transportation of
> gas...they don't do installations, repairs or price for work in domestic
> properties
The answer is that capping off the fire may have solved the problem.
John
Phil L
> On Mar 2, 4:40 pm, "Phil L" <neverchec...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> No point whatsoever. Pipes run to where there used to be other fires
> too. Pipes under all rooms except the kitchen should be capped off
> near
> the boiler, and could indeed be removed. But no way do they all need
> to be
> replaced, wherever any leak or leaks may be. She told him the position
> with the fires, and that she only needs and uses gas in the kitchen.
> To tell her, using a persuasion technique, that all pipes should be
> *replaced* is very dodgy, in my opinion.
He's not interested what appliances she uses and what she doesn't use, he's
only interested about the entire system, and it was found to have a leak
somewhere, the fact that he's located it roughly in the area of an unused
fire is irrelevant, he's done this as a favour to your mother, so that she
can get it repaired more cheaply by someone - he only needed to do a drop
test at the meter end, realise there was a leak /somewhere/, cap it off and
go home, the fact that he's tracked it down is a bonus because he didn't
need to.
>
>>> If I could believe in the existence of independent experts with no
>>> financial
>>> interest in reaching any particular conclusion, I would be happy to
>>> pay
>>> one say 20 to do a test. If anyone knows where I can find one,
>>> please let me know. (Cloud cuckoo land, maybe?)
>>
>> What do you want to spend 20 for a test to tell you what you already
>> know - *there's a leak in the house* - when you ring the leakline,
>> they don't pass your name and address onto 'dodgy derek's plumbing'
>> - they all work for the national grid, a national company
>> responsible for the transportation of gas...they don't do
>> installations, repairs or price for work in domestic properties
>
> The answer is that capping off the fire may have solved the problem.
>
'May have', it also may not have, and herein lies the problem, he he'd
turned up and capped off that fire and it wasn't that, then he's taken
responsibility for that system, and he might have been there 2 days,
removing floorboards, moving wardrobes, lifting carpets etc trying to track
down a leak that he's not getting paid to fix, and that he's not allowed to
take responsibility for, which is why he capped the meter and went home.
ARWadsworth
Personally I would take no notice of the so called experts on this
newsgroup. If I was you I would reconnect the gas and test all the joints
with a cig lighter. You can get 3 for a quid off a bloke on the street
corner.
--
Adam
John Nagelson
> John Nagelson wrote:
> > On Mar 2, 4:40 pm, "Phil L" <neverchec...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > No point whatsoever. Pipes run to where there used to be other fires
> > too. Pipes under all rooms except the kitchen should be capped off
> > near
> > the boiler, and could indeed be removed. But no way do they all need
> > to be
> > replaced, wherever any leak or leaks may be. She told him the position
> > with the fires, and that she only needs and uses gas in the kitchen.
> > To tell her, using a persuasion technique, that all pipes should be
> > *replaced* is very dodgy, in my opinion.
>
> He's not interested what appliances she uses and what she doesn't use, he's
> only interested about the entire system, and it was found to have a leak
> somewhere, the fact that he's located it roughly in the area of an unused
> fire is irrelevant, he's done this as a favour to your mother, so that she
> can get it repaired more cheaply by someone - he only needed to do a drop
> test at the meter end, realise there was a leak /somewhere/, cap it off and
> go home, the fact that he's tracked it down is a bonus because he didn't
> need to.
His remit is to do up to 30 min work. His advice to change all the
pipes
was spurious.
> > The answer is that capping off the fire may have solved the problem.
>
> 'May have', it also may not have, and herein lies the problem,
Exactly. I would like to find out whether or not he was telling the
truth
when he said there was still a leak after he'd capped off the fire.
Do you know whether the "Pay Number" is supposed to be the same
as the engineer's "ID" reg number that you can check at Gas Safe.
Because if so, it doesn't check out.
> he he'd
> turned up and capped off that fire and it wasn't that, then he's taken
> responsibility for that system, and he might have been there 2 days,
> removing floorboards, moving wardrobes, lifting carpets etc trying to track
> down a leak that he's not getting paid to fix, and that he's not allowed to
> take responsibility for, which is why he capped the meter and went home.
It may be, but it may not be.
John
Andy Cap
>
>If you reconnect it, its a risk to life. If you leave an 80 year old
>to freeze, its a risk to life. Why not just fix it.
>
>There is a lot of gas safety scamming, but given the smell of gas,
>this doesnt sound like one.
>
>
>NT
The OP's point though, that everyone seems determined to miss, is not that there
wasn't a leak that needed fixing - the fire - but whether or not the extensive
follow-up work suggested was really necessary.
He's hardly mistaken in being sceptical, because the danger aspect *is*
over-egged in order to frighten people into paying for unnecesary work. The
reason older pople are fairly easy to scam, is because in their younger days,
generally both the nationalised industries and tradespeople could be relied on
to treat you fairly.
Now it is the consumer who is looked upon as stupid, if they're exploited, as if
they're the expert in the field and should have known better ! I would suggest
the OP contact the local Council, Age UK of a local Trades Bulletin, to find the
name of a reliable local man, who has a reputation to maintain. Or of course the
recommendation of friends or neighbours.
Andy C
Skipweasel
<\"cpb\"@" <"insertmysurnamehere> says...
> The fact that it has smelt of gas for 20
> years does not mean it is safe, merely that your mother has been lucky
> so far.
>
>
The house next door smelled of gas for some months. Turned out to be a
nail through a pipe, which had happened some years earlier - presumably
something shifted to make it start leaking.
--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.
SS
"Andrew Mawson" <andrew@no_spam_please_mawson.org.uk> wrote in message
news:tu2dnZCa5duA7vPQ...@bt.com...
this done properly.
I always had a faint smell of gas in my cupboard that had the old style gas
boiler (not combi).
I had a mate who is corgi reg and he checked and said its ok but yes faint
smell of gas.
About 5 years ago getting a new toilet and a different corgi reg plumber who
also said faint smell of gas and by law he must check it and if necessary
turn off at mains,
He used a couple of gadgets and found nothing, I think one was a pressure
thing on the mains.
Anyhow 2 years ago we got a combi and I had it installed in the garage as I
was never comfortable with that faint gas smell despite all checking out ok.
Yes there are scammers out there but you need to trust someone, given the
choice of my mother moving in with me or paying to get it fixed I know what
I would do :-)
John Rumm
I think you need to take a step back and think about this a bit more
rationally. It sounds like your mother contacted Transco on their
emergency "Smell Gas" number... If this is the case they will send
someone to the property quickly to ascertain if there is indeed a leak,
and if so where it is. If they find a leak at the meter or in the
pipework before the meter (i.e. the bits of the system for which they
are responsible), then they will fix free of charge.
If however they find a leak in the consumers property, then the correct
and *only* safe thing to do is to isolate the property and recommend
that they get a gas engineer in to remedy the problem, since they are
not responsible for the consumers side of the installation, and not
supposed to fiddle with it.
If having detected a leak, he were to leave the property without having
made it safe, and the following day your mother was killed in a gas
explosion, then the engineer would be guilty of, at best, gross
negligence, and more likely manslaughter.
Now it sounds like in this case the bloke in question has in fact gone
far beyond what he was actually required to do in this case, and has
made an attempt to find and rectify the fault in the customers
installation. For this you ought to be grateful since he is going beyond
his remit and presumably not even being paid for it. As a transco
engineer, he is not in a position to quote for the work, or undertake to
fix it - so suggesting that there is some financial gain to be had seems
daft.
> He told her if he lived in the house, the first thing he'd do would be
> to get
> "all the pipework" changed. "There's loads of it under the
> floorboards," he said.
> "Who knows where the leak is?" he asked.
>
> That's scammers' talk.
Or its the talk of someone who has looked at a house and noted that much
of the pipework is very old, consists of lots of disused and capped
runs in steel pipe with screw thread connections - possibly even in a
property that used to have gas lighting.
It may be he observed that there is in fact only one or two appliances
actually being used, in spite of the large network of pipes that run all
over the house.
> "If I were you" is the oldest persuasion technique in the business.
>
> Most of the pipes go to fires that haven't been used for decades. She
> only
> needs gas at the boiler and cooker. Whatever problem there might be,
> she doesn't need "all the pipework" changed.
Its sounds like that is *exactly* what is needed - but I suspect you are
not understanding what is being suggested.
He was probably suggesting that new pipework be installed to the two
appliances that are actually in use, and the entire existing system
disconnected and abandoned. This would be (by far) the cheapest an
quickest way of rectifying the problem.
>> Peter says, if you
>> think it has been wrongly disconnected, get a second opinion; don't just
>> turn the gas back on again. The fact that it has smelt of gas for 20
>> years does not mean it is safe, merely that your mother has been lucky
>> so far.
>
> Please let's not get into logical arguments. The fact that I have
> crossed the
> road outside my house thousands of times does not mean it is safe
> either;
> it just means I have been lucky so far.
Indeed. However you have not been expecting anyone else to be legally
responsible for getting you safely across the road before. This is what
you seem to be asking of the Transco engineer.
> If I could believe in the existence of independent experts with no
> financial
> interest in reaching any particular conclusion, I would be happy to
> pay
> one say £20 to do a test. If anyone knows where I can find one, please
> let me know. (Cloud cuckoo land, maybe?)
Call any gas safe engineer, and ask for them to come and test, and quote
for rectification.
Alternatively if you have the skills, and equipment, do your own test.
However, this is not rocket science - you already said you could smell
gas, so that alone is a pretty good clue that there is a leak. Now if
testing has confirmed that leak, then I would not act too surprised.
> The whole set-up reminds me of how the association of electricity
> supply
> companies, many decades ago, obliged its members to pay something like
> 25% of their turnover (!!) to a public relations fund. People just had
> to be
> got to use electrical appliances. They could have given them away free
> and still made a profit from their usage - it's like with inkjet
> printers and
> mobile phones. "Smell gas? Call us free!" indeed!!
With all due respect, bollocks.
> I went to the GasSafe site and it's full of scare stuff aimed at
> elderly people.
> In fact, starting at the front page of their entire site.
Perhaps so, but that is a different discussion.
--
Cheers,
John.
/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Nightjar
...
> His remit is to do up to 30 min work. His advice to change all the
> pipes
He is a qualified gas engineer who would get absolutely no benefit from
the replacement of the system and who has seen what the gas pipes look
like. I would not doubt what he said. I would question whether he meant
for every pipe to be replaced, rather than simply the ones that are
currently in use.
...
> Exactly. I would like to find out whether or not he was telling the
> truth
> when he said there was still a leak after he'd capped off the fire.
He had no reason to lie. He would also be in trouble with his employers
if he disconnected an elderly person's sole means of heating without
good cause.
Colin Bignell
tony sayer
>*there's a leak in the house* - when you ring the leakline, they don't pass
>your name and address onto 'dodgy derek's plumbing' - they all work for the
>national grid, a national company responsible for the transportation of
>gas...they don't do installations, repairs or price for work in domestic
>properties
>
>
Past experience with Transco is that if there is a leak they'll just
shut off the gas and thats THAT!..
Its then up to the householder to get someone else to fix it who it
seems is able to re connect the gas supply if their Gas safe etc...
Isn't there anyone else in the area who anyone here might know who you
might have a bit more faith in perhaps if it were known where this
was?..
--
Tony Sayer
John Rumm
> On Wed, 2 Mar 2011 08:17:49 -0800 (PST), Tabby<meow...@care2.com> wrote:
>>
>> If you reconnect it, its a risk to life. If you leave an 80 year old
>> to freeze, its a risk to life. Why not just fix it.
>>
>> There is a lot of gas safety scamming, but given the smell of gas,
>> this doesnt sound like one.
>>
>>
>> NT
>
> The OP's point though, that everyone seems determined to miss, is not that there
> wasn't a leak that needed fixing - the fire - but whether or not the extensive
> follow-up work suggested was really necessary.
Lets play the "Find the Leak" adventure:
Welcome to "Find the Leak", and new interactive adventure from
Transcocom. You can save the game at any time and return later. Your
score is currently 0 out of 143.
>look
You are in a large hallway in a house There is a faint smell of gas.
There is a cupboard here. Exits lead East, West, South, North, and Up.
>inv
You are carrying: a bag of spanners, a can of parrot snot, and a manometer.
> Go Cupboard
You are in small dusty cupboard under a staircase. There is a gas meter
and a maze of rusty pipes that run is all directions. There is a dead
mouse. There is a strong smell of gas. Exit to the east.
> perform pressure drop test at meter test point
Manometer shows system loosing 5" of pressure during test duration.
> isolate all appliances
You can't do that. You are in a cupboard.
> Exit cupboard
You are in a large hallway.
> isolate all appliances
You run all around the house and disconnect a boiler and a cooker. All
seven other gas points appear to be unused.
You are in a hallway. Exits lead East, West, South, North, and Up.
> Go Cupbaord
You are in small dusty cupboard.
> perform pressure drop test at meter test point
Manometer shows system loosing 5" of pressure during test duration.
> exa pipes
Pipes are old and rusty, run in all directions, and then vanish under
the floor.
> Exit cupboard
You are in a hallway. Exits lead East, West, South, North, and Up.
There is a Wise Man here.
> exa Wise Man
He is wearing blue overalls, and looks like a wise gas engineer.
> Talk to Wise Man
Engineer says "What do you want to know?"
> Where is the leak?
Engineer says "Could be anywhere. Chances are looking at the state of
the pipework, you have several leaks"
> How Can I find them?
Engineer says "You could disconnect one of the unused pipes and cap it
off, and then retest"
> Will that fix the leak?
Engineer says "Probably not, but it might"
> What next?
Engineer says "You could do the same with the next branch"
> Will that fix the leak?
Engineer says "Probably not, but it might"
> Where will it end?
Engineer says "When all branches are capped and you have no working gas
appliances"
> Will that fix the leak?
Engineer says "Probably not, but it might"
> How long will this take?
Engineer says "Could take days"
> How much should I charge the client for this?
Engineer says "£250/day"
> Well, what else could I do?
Engineer says "Install 5m of new pipe to boiler and cooker, and
disconnect all the existing pipes. Then retest"
> Will that fix the leak?
Engineer says "Yes"
> How much should I charge the client for this?
Engineer says "£150"
Night falls, You are in a hallway.
A client has just walked in. Client asks "What should I do, its getting
cold in here?". You feel you are at a crossroads. Do you follow the
advice of the wise man, or do tell your client to follow the map to the
area that says "there be dragons here"?
Nightjar
> The OP's point though, that everyone seems determined to miss, is not that there
> follow-up work suggested was really necessary....
Given that the gas engineer would gain nothing by recommending the work
be done and he did so after seeing the pipework, I would be inclined to
think it was.
Colin Bignell
John Nagelson
To what, exactly? The info about the electricity supply industry is
interesting
and spurs a better look to be had at many other things. It is like the
facts
about the origin of the "Full (English etc.) Breakfast" (pork industry
PR),
the promotion of bookshelves in new houses by the book-publishing
industry,
etc. etc. etc. My source for the electricity info is Nick Cohen's "Off-
Grid" book.
Unfortunately I don't have it to hand, but he gives proper sources. I
could go
on about printers and phones, but won't, because your exclamatory
reference
to testicles did not have the merit of making clear what it is that
you disagree
with. Perhaps it is only the comparison?
Joh
Andy Cap
It's a very valid point, well and amusingly made, however I'd be amazed
if they re-piped the two pieces of equipment for just £150 !
My only point is that these days it pays to be cautious and that elderly
people are *terrified* of calling services out for fear of ending up
with enormous bills. It's sad that even British Gas are regarded with
such suspicion and if you can find someone local with a good reputation,
then that is the way to go.
ARWadsworth
Pure class:-)
--
Adam
D.M.Chapman
John Nagelson <johnna...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>To tell her, using a persuasion technique, that all pipes should be
>*replaced* is very dodgy, in my opinion.
So did he quote her for the work? Or suggest that she contacts his company
for a quote?
>> What do you want to spend 20 for a test to tell you what you already know -
>> *there's a leak in the house* - when you ring the leakline, they don't pass
>> your name and address onto 'dodgy derek's plumbing' - they all work for the
>> national grid, a national company responsible for the transportation of
>> gas...they don't do installations, repairs or price for work in domestic
>> properties
>
>The answer is that capping off the fire may have solved the problem.
May have. AIUI, the emergency phoneline is there to stop a gas leak. I rang
it for a gas leak. Within a couple of hours they street was swarming with
gas men and a bleeding great big hole :-)
It's a "make safe" service, not a fix problem service. I don't think the guy
that comes to "make safe" sells the repair job - they just expect you to find
a plumber to sort that.
D.M.Chapman
John Nagelson <johnna...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Do you know whether the "Pay Number" is supposed to be the same
>as the engineer's "ID" reg number that you can check at Gas Safe.
>Because if so, it doesn't check out.
I've a vague memory that transco (or whatever they are now - the people
who capped the meter) pulled out of the gassafe scheme a while back.
I might have dreamt this - or it might have been a threat. I'd be amazed
if you ring the emergency number and get sent someone who isn't allowed
to work on gas...
Darren
Phil L
WTF?
If any of those things happened to have any grain of truth in them, it
/could/ be seen as a conspiracy, but how does any of this relate to Transco
making safe the gas supply to a domestic property?
1) they are responsible for the safe supply of gas in the UK.
2) they *do not* undertake any kind of work in people's houses *after* the
gas meter.
3) they do not supply, fit or service any kind of gas appliance, other than
gas meters.
4) would you expect Shell to repair your car if it developed a petrol leak?
jgharston
"abandon all existing pipework and run a supply to the cooker and
boiler".
JGH
js.b1
1 - Confirm the wiring can handle a 10A load continually, ie, it is
not rotted rubber.
2 - Buy a portable 2kW industrial fan heater (yellow) on Ebay for
about £35. They use oven sheathed elements, thermostat works, IPx4
splash rated, not quiet however. Cost about 20p/hr to run vs 10p for
gas fire at similar output.
3 - Buy a fixed 1.5kW convective heater to mount on a wall, can not be
knocked over, silent. Same cost, slower warmup.
Second, do not reconnect the gas, but many causes
- Gas safety line is National Grid. If they disconnect, you do not
reconnect, full stop.
- Gas fires are often supplied by a Gas Restrictor (chrome elbow with
slotted screw) which use a washer to seal which can rot, disintegrate,
be the wrong type or size. Any gas work turning the screw off/on can
easily cause it to fail creating a leak which varies with temperature
and rate of change of temperature (from experience).
- Gas fires often have a bottom entry with elbow, over years the seal
can be poor (white plumbing tape).
- Gas fires have a gas valve, these can go stiff & leak over time
requiring dupont cock grease.
- Copper piping involves joints and over the years these can degrade
particularly through walls, and suddenly disintegrate if moved. Lead
piping actually does not, although if festooned over time any movement
can cause problems (crystallisation, failure).
Copper pipe can corrode out of sight with only a little excess
moisture, even if denso gas tape wrapped (now banned). A pipe passing
through a wall with quarry tiles, a bit of rising damp from North
facing, can be attacked by the mortar (particularly if black or
pointed in with cement). I am not sure if de-zincification of fittings
can occur, but it is possible out of sight in damp underfloor
conditions.
You are allowed a small gas leak (in terms of pressure drop over time
limit) as long as there is no smell. If there is a smell then the rule
is disconnect. That does not mean you should tolerate a gas leak, but
realise out of all the gas fitting work we had done from 1970 it was
all the later work which leaked and not the original piping. Ironic.
All the recent transco work was condemned as "sub-standard whilst
trying to follow the intent of gas regulations", ie, someone used the
right tools, the right idea, but workmanship fell short because they
did not understand what they were doing or why.
If there are multiple appliances in the house it is possible to
disconnect the relevant gas fire and see if the remaining pipework
passes. Realise all appliances should have a gas-cock, BG were
notorious for never fitting them because the rule about leaks was
stricter if all appliances could be isolated thus testing pipework
only.
Wise to be cautious, but there is no reason for her to sit in the
cold. It is very expensive to heat solely by electric, but not
outrageous. For example basic heating to 16oC then a) blanket wrap or
b) heated overblanket is easy to arrange. You should have backup
electric heating, I prefer that to be wall mounted in one "survival
room" so reliable, not knocked over and decent (electronic)
thermostat. Easy enough to plug into an electric energy monitor if
paranoid about the units and set aside money accordingly.
Peter Crosland
news:CLmdnWWUVYgbBfPQ...@brightview.co.uk...
Zork for ever!
Peter Crosland
John Rumm
> On Mar 2, 6:13 pm, John Rumm<see.my.signat...@nowhere.null> wrote:
>> On 02/03/2011 16:18, John Nagelson wrote:
>
>>> The whole set-up reminds me of how the association of electricity
>>> supply companies, many decades ago, obliged its members to pay
>>> something like 25% of their turnover (!!) to a public relations fund. People
>>> just had to be got to use electrical appliances. They could have given
>>> them away free and still made a profit from their usage - it's like with inkjet
>>> printers and mobile phones. "Smell gas? Call us free!" indeed!!
>>
>> With all due respect, bollocks.
>
> To what, exactly? The info about the electricity supply industry is
Your suggestion that what transpired was in any way like the marketing
practices of inkjet manufacturers etc.
> and spurs a better look to be had at many other things. It is like the
> facts
> about the origin of the "Full (English etc.) Breakfast" (pork industry
> PR),
> the promotion of bookshelves in new houses by the book-publishing
> industry,
> etc. etc. etc. My source for the electricity info is Nick Cohen's "Off-
> Grid" book.
> Unfortunately I don't have it to hand, but he gives proper sources. I
> could go
> on about printers and phones, but won't, because your exclamatory
> reference
You could, but as I explained in some detail before, none of it would
have any relevance to this case. Transco/National Grid are responsible
for the distribution network up to but not including the customers
premises. If you invite them to check for a leak, and it turns out their
bit is fine, but there is a fault in your pipework, then they are stuck
between a rock and a hard place. They can't fix it for you, and they
can't leave it in an unsafe position.
So there seems little point moaning about it or coming up with some
conspiracy theory that this is some form of scam to relieve poor
pensioners of their money.
> to testicles did not have the merit of making clear what it is that
> you disagree
> with. Perhaps it is only the comparison?
Indeed it was just the comparison.
John Rumm
> John Rumm wrote:
>>
>> Lets play the "Find the Leak" adventure:
> It's a very valid point, well and amusingly made, however I'd be amazed
> if they re-piped the two pieces of equipment for just £150 !
Well the devil is obviously in the detail - i.e. how far each is from
the meter, the complexity of the route, and the gas rate demands of each
(and hence pipe diameters). Its the type of job that ought to be doable
in half a day in many cases though.
> My only point is that these days it pays to be cautious and that elderly
> people are *terrified* of calling services out for fear of ending up
> with enormous bills. It's sad that even British Gas are regarded with
> such suspicion and if you can find someone local with a good reputation,
> then that is the way to go.
Agreed, and BG are often the worst of the bunch in this respect.
John Rumm
> "John Rumm"<see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message
>> Night falls, You are in a hallway.
>> A client has just walked in. Client asks "What should I do, its getting
>> cold in here?". You feel you are at a crossroads. Do you follow the advice
>> of the wise man, or do tell your client to follow the map to the area that
>> says "there be dragons here"?
>
> Zork for ever!
;-)
Or if you are an engineer, you will find some aspects of Planetfall
strangely familiar:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~pot/infocom/planetfall.html
(runs the game in the browser using Java)
Tabby
> On 02/03/2011 17:47, Andy Cap wrote:
>
>
> > Well, what else could I do?
>
> Engineer says "Install 5m of new pipe to boiler and cooker, and
> disconnect all the existing pipes. Then retest"
>
> > Will that fix the leak?
>
> Engineer says "Yes"
>
> > How much should I charge the client for this?
>
>
> Night falls, You are in a hallway.
> A client has just walked in. Client asks "What should I do, its getting
> cold in here?". You feel you are at a crossroads. Do you follow the
> advice of the wise man, or do tell your client to follow the map to the
> area that says "there be dragons here"?
Can we have it on the wiki?
NT
Adrian C
>> On 02/03/2011 16:18, John Nagelson wrote:
>
>>> The whole set-up reminds me of how the association of electricity
>>> supply companies, many decades ago, obliged its members to pay
>>> something like 25% of their turnover (!!) to a public relations fund. People
>>> just had to be got to use electrical appliances. They could have given
>>> them away free and still made a profit from their usage - it's like with inkjet
>>> printers and mobile phones. "Smell gas? Call us free!" indeed!!
I'm curious. This is getting deeply sad. Must your mother suffer from
_your_ phobias, wreakless misunderstandings or your political agenda
taking precedence over a very uncomplicated matter of her own safety?
Where does your sister stand in all this?
--
Adrian C
John Rumm
>>
>> > Well, what else could I do?
>>
>> Engineer says "Install 5m of new pipe to boiler and cooker, and
>> disconnect all the existing pipes. Then retest"
>>
>> > Will that fix the leak?
>>
>> Engineer says "Yes"
>>
>> > How much should I charge the client for this?
>>
>>
>> Night falls, You are in a hallway.
>> A client has just walked in. Client asks "What should I do, its getting
>> cold in here?". You feel you are at a crossroads. Do you follow the
>> advice of the wise man, or do tell your client to follow the map to the
>> area that says "there be dragons here"?
>
> Can we have it on the wiki?
help yourself...
(fix the spelling while you are at it! ;-)
hugh
<c65c46be-8b06-4455...@x13g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
John Nagelson <johnna...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>On Mar 2, 3:53 pm, hugh <hugh@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:
>> In message
>> <68aa3113-094f-4ef7-b7e5-d2accc44d...@e9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, John
>> Nagelson <johnnagel...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Mar 2, 3:17 pm, John Nagelson <johnnagel...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> Hi, my mother's house occasionally smells slightly of gas, and has
>> >> done for about 20 years, so it's obvious there's a leak somewhere.
>> >> Yesterday my sister called the "Smell Gas? Call us for Free" number
>> >> that's advertised all over the place by practically every company in
>> >> the industry - presumably centrally-funded. A gas guy came, found a
>> >> leak in one room and disconnected the fire there (which hasn't been
>> >> used for years). Then he sucked on his teeth and said that that hadn't
>> >> fixed the problem, and disconnected the entire supply at the mains,
>> >> and gave my mother a piece of paper to say she'd be committing a
>> >> offence if she turned it back on again.
>>
>> >> He also said that if it were his house, he'd change everything, which
>> >> is of course the oldest way in the book of recommending that a lot of
>> >> work be done without saying in writing that he's carried out an
>> >> inspection, found the following faults, and recommends that these
>> >> specific things be done. Yes mate, sure.
>>
>> >I've just read his scrawled note, which reads "Smell of gas at fire,
>> >Disconect [sic], Retest (so that) still leaking Cap at meter".
>>
>> >Not sure about the "so that" - it might say something else.
>>
>> >Does this mean he has capped a pipe close to the meter? (If so, does
>> >this mean actual plumbing work, or just turning it off?) Or does it
>> >mean he found a leak at the meter? (In the latter case, presumably the
>> >supplier will pay, since they - or some other company - own the
>> >meter?)
>>
>>
>> >John
>>
>> Was he Gas Safe registered?
>> If he has literally disconnected at the mains rather than just turn it
>> off and applied a cap then yes yo would be committing an offence if you
>> turned it back on as you would if you do any connection work on gas.
>> Only a Gas Safe Registered person can do that.
>>
>> If he is not a qualified person then he himself was committing an
>> offence.
>> This link might be useful
>>
>> http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/help/check_an_engineer.aspx
>
>Thanks Hugh! He didn't want to give his name, and signed with a
>squiggle,
>but my mother did get him to give her his name. He's also entered a
>7-digit number as his "Pay No."
>
>I went to the link you mentioned, and it asks for a "Licence Card
>Number",
>which it also describes as an "ID number".
>
>I entered the number he put, and got the message:
>
>"Operative cannot be found.
>Please ensure you are entering a number of 1-7 digits."
>
>The number he gave certainly has 7 digits. But is a "Pay Number" the
>same
>as a "Licence Card Number"?
>
>There are no other numbers on the piece of paper he gave my mother,
>other than a "Job Voucher Number" (9 digits).
>
>Excuse my ignorance, but what does it mean to "just turn off and apply
>a cap"
>rather than "literally disconnect"?
>
>John
>
>
Sorry that wasn't very we3ll written.
If he just turn of a tap then you can turn it back on.
If he disconnected the pipe and sealed the supply end with a cap then
you would be committing an offence to reconnect it even though he may
not have been qualified to do the disconnection.
I should contact Gas Safe about this guy. Any authorised person would be
only too happy to show his credentials and give his name. They pay a lot
of money for certification.
--
hugh
"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, Or who said it, Even if
I have said it, Unless it agrees with your own reason And your own
common sense." Buddha
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember John Rumm
<see.my.s...@nowhere.null> saying something like:
>Night falls, You are in a hallway.
>A client has just walked in. Client asks "What should I do, its getting
>cold in here?". You feel you are at a crossroads. Do you follow the
>advice of the wise man, or do tell your client to follow the map to the
>area that says "there be dragons here"?
<remove dead mouse>
Smell goes away.
Sorted.
The Natural Philosopher
> In article <ikm79m$ug4$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "ARWadsworth" <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> John Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
> [snip evidence of misspent youth]
>
>> Pure class:-)
>
> I can only give it 9.8, due to two incorrect instances of "loosing".
>
Indeed. Should be loosening :-)
David WE Roberts
"John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message
news:CLmdnWWUVYgbBfPQ...@brightview.co.uk...
<snip>
> Lets play the "Find the Leak" adventure:
>
>
> Welcome to "Find the Leak", and new interactive adventure from Transcocom.
> You can save the game at any time and return later. Your score is
> currently 0 out of 143.
<snip>
> Night falls, You are in a hallway.
> A client has just walked in.
** Client is holding a box of matches and a brand new life insurance policy.
**
>Client asks "What should I do, its getting cold in here?". You feel you are
>at a crossroads. Do you follow the advice of the wise man, or do tell your
>client to follow the map to the area that says "there be dragons here"?
<snip>
chris
> John Nagelson <johnnagel...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Mar 2, 3:32 pm, "Peter Crosland" <g6...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> "John Nagelson" <johnnagel...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> >>news:0ca1354d-7d42-4b60...@o10g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >>> Hi, my mother's house occasionally smells slightly of gas, and has
> >>> done for about 20 years, so it's obvious there's a leak somewhere.
> >>> Yesterday my sister called the "Smell Gas? Call us for Free" number
> >>> that's advertised all over the place by practically every company in
> >>> the industry - presumably centrally-funded. A gas guy came, found a
> >>> leak in one room and disconnected the fire there (which hasn't been
> >>> used for years). Then he sucked on his teeth and said that that
> >>> hadn't fixed the problem, and disconnected the entire supply at the
> >>> mains, and gave my mother a piece of paper to say she'd be
> >>> committing a offence if she turned it back on again.
>
> >>> He also said that if it were his house, he'd change everything,
> >>> which is of course the oldest way in the book of recommending that
> >>> a lot of work be done without saying in writing that he's carried
> >>> out an inspection, found the following faults, and recommends that
> >>> these specific things be done. Yes mate, sure.
>
> >>> was planning to get the gas fixed in the spring.
>
> >>> I'm going to turn it on again, regardless of whether I am breaking
> >>> the law, and then we will get the gas fixed at a time of my
> >>> choosing. I'd rather that than leave my mother, who is in her 80s,
> >>> without any heating.
>
> >>> Any advice?
>
> >> Yes. Don't put your mother's and other people's lives at risk by
> >> being so arrogant. Get a second opinion from an independent expert
> >> who does not have a financial interest in getting the work done.
>
> > It isn't arrogance; it's logic. It's no more smelly now than it was 20
> > years ago.
>
> > Where do I find such an independent expert?
>
> Personally I would take no notice of the so called experts on this
> newsgroup. If I was you I would reconnect the gas and test all the joints
> with a cig lighter. You can get 3 for a quid off a bloke on the street
> corner.
>
> --
> Adam
Much more effective to rub the joints with TNT and see if they
bubble...
John Nagelson
> On 02/03/2011 17:17, John Nagelson wrote:
> ...
>
> > His remit is to do up to 30 min work. His advice to change all the
> > pipes was spurious...
>
> He is a qualified gas engineer who would get absolutely no benefit from
> the replacement of the system
Hi Colin, the industry gets the public authorities to impose rules
(and, where not rules, beliefs) which profit the industry's members.
Same with the medical industry, the legal industry, etc.
I'm not sure he was authorised. His number didn't check out. I'm
currently pursuing this with GasSafe(TM).
John
Terry Fields
John Nagelson wrote:
>Hi, my mother's house occasionally smells slightly of gas, and has
>done for about 20 years, so it's obvious there's a leak somewhere.
>It's early March. She lives in County Durham. It's freezing cold. I
>was planning to get the gas fixed in the spring.
If you are considering having the gas pipework attended to, it might
be worth considering having one of the gas fires checked for safety at
the same time then and plumbed into the gas system, in order to
provide your mother with an alternative source of heating should the
boiler break down. An electric heater back-up might not be a bad idea
either, and more or less essential if there is no backup gasfire.
TF
Tabby
:)
F
> Hi, my mother's house occasionally smells slightly of gas, and has
> done for about 20 years, so it's obvious there's a leak somewhere.
Isn't the most troubling part of all of this that a gas leak, however
'slight', has been left unattended to for 'about 20 years'?
20 years for goodness knows what to happen...
--
F
Andy Dingley
> First, your relative should have a backup heater.
> 1 - Confirm the wiring can handle a 10A load continually, ie, it is
> not rotted rubber.
> 2 - Buy a portable 2kW industrial fan heater (yellow) on Ebay for
> about £35. They use oven sheathed elements, thermostat works, IPx4
> splash rated, not quiet however. Cost about 20p/hr to run vs 10p for
> gas fire at similar output.
Supplemental to that, I would also suggest getting an immersion heater
boost timer and installing it in the supply lead to each fan heater.
This then gives your elderly relative a simple button for "I'm cold,
press this". Highlight it with red insulation tape. Make printed
signs, laminate them, and display them prominently showing that some
appliances are on timers, some are on demand buttons.
If there are carers going in, make sure that they understand the
switchgear and on pain of their immediate dismissal, they agree to
leave the settings unchanged. My Dad's place ran over its last winter
on electric heating, courtesy of a plethora of oil panel heaters with
inbuilt time switches and fan heaters adjacent to the usual chairs
with 1hr boost timers. This worked fine, except for the £1000
electricity bills, because the carers kept resetting the time switches
to run 24 hrs. There is no need to over-heat a house to carehome/
greenhouse temperatures throughout the night!
Dad's now in a carehome. The temperature is so high that he was
wearing a short sleeved shirt and no jumper yesterday, as it was too
hot for anything else (weather outside was cold enough to have the
gritters out). The windows were wide open too, to "give a bit of fresh
air". I can't imagine what their energy costs are like, but there can
be few places so in need of a heat exchanger ventilation system.
Andy Dingley
> Hi, my mother's house occasionally smells slightly of gas, and has
> done for about 20 years,
Gas or drains / dead mouse? Smell alone does not confirm a gas leak,
you have to do a pressure drop test for that.
If you do have a real leak, then it needs capping off pronto and then
fixing forthwith. Use fan heaters in the meantime. Yes, this will cost
money. If it's in old and abandoned pipework though, it may be
possible to cap off part of the system and leave the rest in service,
which will be cheaper than a total replumb.
Do _not_ use British Gas.
tony sayer
s.com>, Andy Dingley <din...@codesmiths.com> scribeth thus
Yep just been to the 'ospital and you couldn't breath for the heat in
there;!..
Anyway what might be useful to the original poster is that Menvier now
IIRC part of Cooper security do an autodialler that among things like
external alarm inputs has a built in thermostat that can dial up an
alarm if the temperature goes below a certain level so that say the
relative had a heating failure at night they might possibly get that
cold hypothermia might start to set in, at least with this it will call
someone and it can dial up to Four numbers Six times and let someone
know that all isn't as well as it ought be.
IIRC on the unit you can do a remote listen in if required..
Might prove useful to someone who's some distance away and who isn't
checked on that often ?......
--
Tony Sayer
stuart noble
We recently had a dual fuel cooker installed, and the pressure test
revealed a slight leak. The fitter said that level of leak was quite
common in older properties and that it would be over cautious to
disconnect the supply. For the sake of £200 we got him back to replace
the steel pipework anyway
Nightjar
> On Mar 2, 6:30 pm, "Nightjar<\"cpb\"@"<"insertmysurnamehere> wrote:
>> On 02/03/2011 17:17, John Nagelson wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> His remit is to do up to 30 min work. His advice to change all the
>>> pipes was spurious...
>>
>> He is a qualified gas engineer who would get absolutely no benefit from
>> the replacement of the system
>
> Hi Colin, the industry gets the public authorities to impose rules
> (and, where not rules, beliefs) which profit the industry's members.
You are being paranoid. The chap who came to check for leaks gains
nothing from suggesting that the pipework needs replacing, nor do his
employers.
> Same with the medical industry, the legal industry, etc.
I can't speak for the latter, but, as a former member of the Association
of British Healthcare Industries, I can assure you that the Department
of Health often goes against the interests of the healthcare industry,
even to the point of destroying an entire manufacturing sector by a
change in policy.
> I'm not sure he was authorised. His number didn't check out. I'm
> currently pursuing this with GasSafe(TM).
To me, that would only suggest that you have the wrong number. I would
expect an online ID checking system to need a number from his ID card,
so that you can decide whether to let him in or not. For security, I
would not expect that number to be entered on documentation left behind
after the visit.
Colin Bignell
Jim K
'kin 'ell !! - where have you been??
do you read anyone else's posts?
Jim K
Man at B&Q
> Dad's now in a carehome. The temperature is so high that he was
> wearing a short sleeved shirt and no jumper yesterday, as it was too
> hot for anything else (weather outside was cold enough to have the
> gritters out). The windows were wide open too, to "give a bit of fresh
> air". I can't imagine what their energy costs are like, but there can
> be few places so in need of a heat exchanger ventilation system.
I fixed that in my father's room by turning the radiator down. No one
noticed.
MBQ
A.Lee
> On 03/03/2011 12:25, Andy Dingley wrote:
> > On Mar 2, 3:17 pm, John Nagelson<johnnagel...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Hi, my mother's house occasionally smells slightly of gas, and has
> >> done for about 20 years,
> We recently had a dual fuel cooker installed, and the pressure test
> revealed a slight leak. The fitter said that level of leak was quite
> common in older properties and that it would be over cautious to
> disconnect the supply. For the sake of £200 we got him back to replace
> the steel pipework anyway
That's right. A 5mbar drop on the manometer over 3 minutes is acceptable
iirc. They must inform the owner that there is a leak, but it isnt too
bad. However, if there is a smell of gas, then they must disconnect, or
find the source of the leak.
Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
John Rumm
Note the permitted drop only applies to when appliances are connected
(i.e. some allowance is made for the fact the control taps may let by a
small amount). If you are testing the pipework in isolation, then there
is no permitted drop.
hugh
<\"cpb\"@" <"insertmysurnamehere>"@?.?.invalid> writes
his ID no on the documentation.
According to the OP this guy wouldn't give his name.
Every employee of a utility company calling especially on an elderly
person should as a matter of procedure clearly show his ID and be
willing to provide additional identity such as his name.
Doorstep deception crime is one of the most frequently occurring
offences and the victims are usually the trusting elderly.
Nightjar
I would expect the employee number used on documentation to be different
from a verification number on an ID card that can be used to check the
ID online. Otherwise, you are leaving lots of people with usable
verification numbers.
> According to the OP this guy wouldn't give his name.
That is not in the original post, nor in any of the posts I've read in
this thread.
> Every employee of a utility company calling especially on an elderly
> person should as a matter of procedure clearly show his ID and be
> willing to provide additional identity such as his name.
> Doorstep deception crime is one of the most frequently occurring
> offences and the victims are usually the trusting elderly.
However, doorstep scammers do not normally turn up in response to a
telephone call to GasSafe.
Colin Bignell
Andy Dingley
> However, doorstep scammers do not normally turn up in response to a
> telephone call to GasSafe.
British Gas do!
The Other Mike
Many years ago we came back to our semi after a few days away to find
our gas disconnected. Next door they had smelt gas and they couldn't
detect any pressure drop. Fortunately the gas board could get access
to our meter and saw it was a leak on our system that was somehow
affecting next door.
They came to investigate further and while there was a drop there was
no smell anywhere in our house. After lots of detective work tracing
the possible route of pipes It turned out to be a carpet gripper rod
nail that had just pierced a gas pipe buried in the concrete floor
next to a gas fire outlet. The pipe must have been pierced at least
two years before (or come close to it). It didn't leak into the room
until the gripper rod was levered off the floor but it effectively
saturated the concrete floor under the vinyl tiles and eventually -
not sure how as there was a solid party wall, it seeped through to
next door.
The concrete was as hard as diamond and even with good chisels and a
hefty hammer it took a day to hack out (pre sds!) Had another visit
to fix the damaged pipe. In those days the gas board didn't charge at
all despite the multiple trips. I reckon you could have probably lit
the concrete and used it as a burner as it still reeked a week later
when I got the tiles back down!
--
nimbu...@yahoo.co.uk
> John Nagelson wrote:
> > Hi, my mother's house occasionally smells slightly of gas, and has
> > that's advertised all over the place by practically every company in
> > the industry - presumably centrally-funded. A gas guy came, found a
> > leak in one room and disconnected the fire there (which hasn't been
>
> found a leak and switched it off, end of story.
>
> Did you think they would carry out all nessecary repairs to someone's system
> free of charge? - *they are there to safeguard people's lives*, and
> *nothing* else
>
> If you want to get it fixed, call out a plumber, who will charge you
>
> --
> some diy tips, but mostly filthy jokes:http://tipsntricks-phil.blogspot.com/
You are right to be cautious
I had a buy to let. The tenant complained about gas smell and called
Transco who promptly capped the supply on the meter. I had had teh
landlords CP12 a few weeks before and called the gas chap back. I
watched his manometer which dropped not a mm.
I can only conclude the dozy tenent left the 20 year old hob without
flame safety device on low and the idiot Transco employee either did
not turn this off OR he was unaware there was a central heating boiler
with a pilot and thermocouple.
I can think of no other explaination unless his rubber hose had a
pinhole
neadless to say I complained to Transco but to no avail but may be
effective if he makes a habit of this
There was never another smell of gas thereafter
HTH Phil;
YAPH
> Hi, my mother's house occasionally smells slightly of gas, and has done
> for about 20 years, so it's obvious there's a leak somewhere. Yesterday
> my sister called the "Smell Gas? Call us for Free" number that's
> advertised all over the place by practically every company in the
> industry - presumably centrally-funded.
Gas Emergency Service, it's called
A gas guy came, found a leak in
> one room and disconnected the fire there (which hasn't been used for
> years). Then he sucked on his teeth and said that that hadn't fixed the
> problem, and disconnected the entire supply at the mains, and gave my
> mother a piece of paper to say she'd be committing a offence if she
> turned it back on again.
...
> I'm going to turn it on again, regardless of whether I am breaking the
> law, and then we will get the gas fixed at a time of my choosing. I'd
> rather that than leave my mother, who is in her 80s, without any
> heating.
...
> Seems that there's a hell of a lot of scamming going on in this sector,
> especially against the elderly, involving unnecessary disconnections.
There's a gas leak. The bloke from the gas emergency service couldn't
find it so he did what he was required to do by law and common sense and
cut off the gas at the meter. How is that a scam? If he hadn't and your
mum had subsequently been blown up by a gas explosion would that have
been OK with you? If she gets blown up after you reconnect it will that
be OK with you? How much do a couple of convector heaters cost and is
that more than her life (and possibly those of her neighbours) is worth?
Just because there's been a leak for 20 years doesn't mean it's OK, or
that it's not getting worse and more dangerous.
And what's your objection to getting someone in to fix the problem so she
can safely use gas again?
For what it's worth I had a job like this a couple of years ago and after
a *lot* of head-scratching I found the leak at a gas fire: it was leaking
slightly and the emergency service bloke who'd investigated (and ended up
cutting off the service) had turned it off at the restrictor elbow but
that was letting by slightly so the leak persisted (and because the
escaping gas was being drawn up the chimney by its natural draught it
wasn't obvious where it was coming from).
--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk
Religion is like a penis. It is fine to have one. It's ok to be proud of
it.
Just don't wave it around in public or try to jam it down my child's
throat.
Andy Wade
Andy Wade
> I'm not sure he was authorised. His number didn't check out. I'm
> currently pursuing this with GasSafe(TM).
I'm pretty sure that operatives of National Grid Gas (formerly Transco)
don't have to be GasSafe registered. GasSafe (and previously Corgi)
registrations are a requirement of the Gas Safety (Installation and use)
regulations for anyone doing 'gas work' as defined in the scope in the
scope of those regs (and then only if for financial gain).
National Grid Gas will be operating under the terms of a gas
transporter's and/or emergency service provider's licence, and hence
under a quite separate training, regulatory and approval regime.
... grateful if anyone can confirm that this is (or isn't) correct.
--
Andy