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Overflow for a pond ? ... howto
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Rick Hughes
Mar 25, 2013, 2:41:07 PM3/25/13
to
I have been digging out to build a pond in garden ... it's around
600gall in size.
It has filled and overflowed many times in past few months... so before
I do the liner & edging need to consider a drain.
Nearest drain is too far away to simply put in a gravity run .... would
need to be pumped.
One thought is to create some form of sump, (plastic box) below ground
level, arrange overflow pipe from pond - flow starts once water gets
passed certain level.
Fit a float operated pump ... either a Hippo 2a
http://tinyurl.com/ca4sdlv
or maybe cheaper a bilgepump from a boat (I have 12V supply nearby)
such as http://tinyurl.com/cbbsnw2
Difficulty is how do I build in some form of hysteresis .. or it could
be forever cycling pump.
Wouldn't want a tiny amount overflow .. pump starts ... stops seconds
later ... or do I have to just accept that.
Tried the pond & garden groups .. they all rely on simply allowing
overflow or have them built at a highpoint and a gravity drain.
Any ideas ?
600gall in size.
It has filled and overflowed many times in past few months... so before
I do the liner & edging need to consider a drain.
Nearest drain is too far away to simply put in a gravity run .... would
need to be pumped.
One thought is to create some form of sump, (plastic box) below ground
level, arrange overflow pipe from pond - flow starts once water gets
passed certain level.
Fit a float operated pump ... either a Hippo 2a
http://tinyurl.com/ca4sdlv
or maybe cheaper a bilgepump from a boat (I have 12V supply nearby)
such as http://tinyurl.com/cbbsnw2
Difficulty is how do I build in some form of hysteresis .. or it could
be forever cycling pump.
Wouldn't want a tiny amount overflow .. pump starts ... stops seconds
later ... or do I have to just accept that.
Tried the pond & garden groups .. they all rely on simply allowing
overflow or have them built at a highpoint and a gravity drain.
Any ideas ?
Owain
Mar 25, 2013, 4:02:22 PM3/25/13
to
On Mar 25, 6:41 pm, Rick Hughes wrote:
> Difficulty is how do I build in some form of hysteresis .. or it could
> be forever cycling pump.
> Wouldn't want a tiny amount overflow .. pump starts ... stops seconds
> later ... or do I have to just accept that.
Some form of tipping container that fills up slowly, then tips and
> Difficulty is how do I build in some form of hysteresis .. or it could
> be forever cycling pump.
> Wouldn't want a tiny amount overflow .. pump starts ... stops seconds
> later ... or do I have to just accept that.
dumps it all in the sump which is them pumped out.
Owain
Toby
Mar 25, 2013, 4:26:53 PM3/25/13
to
adjusted by the length of the cable you leave between the pump and the
float.
I have a similar pump used to transfer water from a water butt over to
some large storage tanks for rainwater - the water level needs to be
about 6-8" above the pump to activate it, then it shuts off when there
is bout 1" left in the barrel.
So if your bury your plastic box and link it to the pond at the top, it
will gradually fill when the pnd is at max level, and then more water
arrived, then the pump will purge the overflow box when it is nearly full.
If you use a short dip tube into the pond, and a longer one into the box
(so an 'n' shape with a longer leg into the box) then the water should
then fill up to the high point, and then create a siphon when there is
heavier rain, to empty the pond to the level of the bottom of the pond
side of the tube.
You will need to make sure that fish and other wildlife don't get sucked
up though, as the pump will almost certainly terminate them!
--
Toby...
Remove pants to reply
Bill Wright
Mar 25, 2013, 5:08:56 PM3/25/13
to
Rick Hughes wrote:
> Difficulty is how do I build in some form of hysteresis .. or it could
> be forever cycling pump.
> Wouldn't want a tiny amount overflow .. pump starts ... stops seconds
> later ... or do I have to just accept that.
> Tried the pond & garden groups .. they all rely on simply allowing
> overflow or have them built at a highpoint and a gravity drain.
>
> Any ideas ?
>
Use a timer relay that prevents switching more often than say, once an
> Difficulty is how do I build in some form of hysteresis .. or it could
> be forever cycling pump.
> Wouldn't want a tiny amount overflow .. pump starts ... stops seconds
> later ... or do I have to just accept that.
> Tried the pond & garden groups .. they all rely on simply allowing
> overflow or have them built at a highpoint and a gravity drain.
>
> Any ideas ?
>
hour. Or use two float sensors at slightly different levels, the lower
one for 'off' and the higher one for 'on'. Various relay configurations
are possible if there are two switches.
Bill
RobertL
Mar 26, 2013, 6:24:18 AM3/26/13
to
On Monday, March 25, 2013 6:41:07 PM UTC, Rick Hughes wrote:
> I have been digging out to build a pond in garden ... it's around
> 600gall in size.
> It has filled and overflowed many times in past few months... so before
> I do the liner & edging need to consider a drain.
>
> Nearest drain is too far away to simply put in a gravity run .... would
> need to be pumped.
Since you are digging the pond, what is wrong with digging a pit under the pond and filling it with rubble (or one of those fancy plastic hollow boxes made for the purpose) and having the pond overflow into that?
> I have been digging out to build a pond in garden ... it's around
> 600gall in size.
> It has filled and overflowed many times in past few months... so before
> I do the liner & edging need to consider a drain.
>
> Nearest drain is too far away to simply put in a gravity run .... would
> need to be pumped.
Robert
Rick Hughes
Mar 30, 2013, 4:38:39 PM3/30/13
to
Rick Hughes
Mar 30, 2013, 4:54:35 PM3/30/13
to
On 25/03/2013 20:26, Toby wrote:
>
> The Hippo pump with the integrated float switch has hysteresis which is
> adjusted by the length of the cable you leave between the pump and the
> float.
>
> I have a similar pump used to transfer water from a water butt over to
> some large storage tanks for rainwater - the water level needs to be
> about 6-8" above the pump to activate it, then it shuts off when there
> is bout 1" left in the barrel.
>
> So if your bury your plastic box and link it to the pond at the top, it
> will gradually fill when the pnd is at max level, and then more water
> arrived, then the pump will purge the overflow box when it is nearly full.
>
> If you use a short dip tube into the pond, and a longer one into the box
> (so an 'n' shape with a longer leg into the box) then the water should
> then fill up to the high point, and then create a siphon when there is
> heavier rain, to empty the pond to the level of the bottom of the pond
> side of the tube.
Is this what you mean ? ....
>
> The Hippo pump with the integrated float switch has hysteresis which is
> adjusted by the length of the cable you leave between the pump and the
> float.
>
> I have a similar pump used to transfer water from a water butt over to
> some large storage tanks for rainwater - the water level needs to be
> about 6-8" above the pump to activate it, then it shuts off when there
> is bout 1" left in the barrel.
>
> So if your bury your plastic box and link it to the pond at the top, it
> will gradually fill when the pnd is at max level, and then more water
> arrived, then the pump will purge the overflow box when it is nearly full.
>
> If you use a short dip tube into the pond, and a longer one into the box
> (so an 'n' shape with a longer leg into the box) then the water should
> then fill up to the high point, and then create a siphon when there is
> heavier rain, to empty the pond to the level of the bottom of the pond
> side of the tube.
http://tinyurl.com/c5reu4r
Rick Hughes
Mar 30, 2013, 4:57:16 PM3/30/13
to
The pond is not lined now ... and it fills & overflows regularly ... i.e
ground does not allow it to soakaway ...
So digging a hole underneath even if it had a full land drainage crate
would not work. Unless I put a hole in much bigger than the pond.
The ground here does not support soakaway construction ... it does not
drain.
robgraham
Mar 30, 2013, 6:32:23 PM3/30/13
to
On Mar 30, 8:57 pm, Rick Hughes <rick_hug...@remove-me.btconnect.com>
wrote:
This is clearly one of those evenings when everyone else seems a
wally.
I have a bit bigger pond, and unless I live in an area of the country
(Scotland!) which is seriously drier than yours, then a damp or bog
bed is the solution. There are lots of plants that are well worth
growing that love damp ground and all you need to do is to research
how to make such a bed - I did so before the internet was the choice
of information and I've had absolutely no problems whatsoever with
maintaining the water flow through my pond system.
I know this may not seem to be in the ethos of "get-someone-else-to-
tell-you-do-to-it", but I've given you the solution - now go and work
out how to do it, as I had to.
Rob
wrote:
wally.
I have a bit bigger pond, and unless I live in an area of the country
(Scotland!) which is seriously drier than yours, then a damp or bog
bed is the solution. There are lots of plants that are well worth
growing that love damp ground and all you need to do is to research
how to make such a bed - I did so before the internet was the choice
of information and I've had absolutely no problems whatsoever with
maintaining the water flow through my pond system.
I know this may not seem to be in the ethos of "get-someone-else-to-
tell-you-do-to-it", but I've given you the solution - now go and work
out how to do it, as I had to.
Rob
Rick Hughes
Mar 31, 2013, 3:48:19 PM3/31/13
to
On 30/03/2013 22:32, robgraham wrote:
> On Mar 30, 8:57 pm, Rick Hughes <rick_hug...@remove-me.btconnect.com>
> wrote:
>> On 26/03/2013 10:24, RobertL wrote:
>>
> This is clearly one of those evenings when everyone else seems a
> wally.
>
> I have a bit bigger pond, and unless I live in an area of the country
> (Scotland!) which is seriously drier than yours, then a damp or bog
> bed is the solution. There are lots of plants that are well worth
> growing that love damp ground and all y
>
> Rob
> On Mar 30, 8:57 pm, Rick Hughes <rick_hug...@remove-me.btconnect.com>
> wrote:
>> On 26/03/2013 10:24, RobertL wrote:
>>
> This is clearly one of those evenings when everyone else seems a
> wally.
>
> I have a bit bigger pond, and unless I live in an area of the country
> (Scotland!) which is seriously drier than yours, then a damp or bog
> bed is the solution. There are lots of plants that are well worth
> growing that love damp ground and all y
>
But ... I don't want a damp or bog ? ......... I am building a pond.
Nothing will grow in this ground it's an infill site, about 30' above
natural ground level (they filled in a valley floor)
mainly of waste from the steel works in the 40's & 50's
gb
Mar 31, 2013, 5:53:00 PM3/31/13
to
>
> But ... I don't want a damp or bog ? ......... I am building a pond.
> Nothing will grow in this ground it's an infill site, about 30' above
> natural ground level (they filled in a valley floor)
> mainly of waste from the steel works in the 40's & 50's
If it is filled by rain water, then no more rain will fall into the pond
than would have fallen on the area it occupied before the pond was dug.
The rain must have run off somewhere so it will carry on doing the
exactly that.
If the pond is stream or spring fed, a run off area must have existed
before the pond. So again - no extra work is needed. Just dig the
hole, stock it, and enjoy.
Rick Hughes
Mar 31, 2013, 6:35:02 PM3/31/13
to
On 31/03/2013 22:53, gb wrote:
>
> Why do you think an overflow is needed?
Because it fills with water, then overflows, any pond life would simply
>
> Why do you think an overflow is needed?
overflow out of pond.
>
> If it is filled by rain water, then no more rain will fall into the pond
> than would have fallen on the area it occupied before the pond was dug.
As it's lowest point in garden any surface water on rest of garden is
free to flow into pond ... so it's effective area is much larger than
that of the hole.
> The rain must have run off somewhere so it will carry on doing the
> exactly that.
>
> If the pond is stream or spring fed, a run off area must have existed
> before the pond. So again - no extra work is needed. Just dig the
> hole, stock it, and enjoy.
up from rain.
For example I pumped out over 2' deep of it today, couple of hundred
gallons.
When it rains it fills up, then overflows, it's a simple fact that it
does not drain away at all.
Hence I need to allow for a pumped overflow.
Tim Lamb
Apr 1, 2013, 5:43:56 AM4/1/13
to
In message <OfednccqiKmEJ8XM...@bt.com>, Rick Hughes
<rick_...@remove-me.btconnect.com> writes
like Duckweed will gather at the run off spot and raise the level a bit.
pond and stimulate growth from green algae (Blanket Weed etc.)
provide a simple drain to some lower place?
I made the mistake of lining part of a *drain* on my land. Worked fine
all Summer. When the water table rose in the winter, the liner *floated*
and displaced the pond water. Bags of sand helped as did raising the
sides by 6". 15 years on, it has settled down.
>
>
--
Tim Lamb
<rick_...@remove-me.btconnect.com> writes
>On 31/03/2013 22:53, gb wrote:
>
>>
>> Why do you think an overflow is needed?
>
>
>Because it fills with water, then overflows, any pond life would simply
>overflow out of pond.
They are in the pond because they like it. Why leave? Floating stuff
>
>>
>> Why do you think an overflow is needed?
>
>
>Because it fills with water, then overflows, any pond life would simply
>overflow out of pond.
like Duckweed will gather at the run off spot and raise the level a bit.
>
>>
>> If it is filled by rain water, then no more rain will fall into the pond
>> than would have fallen on the area it occupied before the pond was dug.
>
>
>Yes - agree, but it fills with rain water, rapidly !
>As it's lowest point in garden any surface water on rest of garden is
>free to flow into pond ... so it's effective area is much larger than
>that of the hole.
You really don't want that. Surface water will carry minerals into the
>>
>> If it is filled by rain water, then no more rain will fall into the pond
>> than would have fallen on the area it occupied before the pond was dug.
>
>
>Yes - agree, but it fills with rain water, rapidly !
>As it's lowest point in garden any surface water on rest of garden is
>free to flow into pond ... so it's effective area is much larger than
>that of the hole.
pond and stimulate growth from green algae (Blanket Weed etc.)
>
>> The rain must have run off somewhere so it will carry on doing the
>> exactly that.
>>
>> If the pond is stream or spring fed, a run off area must have existed
>> before the pond. So again - no extra work is needed. Just dig the
>> hole, stock it, and enjoy.
>
>
>
>I have in effect a 4' deep hole x 6' long ... it has no stream, fills
>up from rain.
>
>For example I pumped out over 2' deep of it today, couple of hundred
>gallons.
>When it rains it fills up, then overflows, it's a simple fact that it
>does not drain away at all.
>
>Hence I need to allow for a pumped overflow.
That isn't a pond. It's a sump. Where does it overflow to? Can you not
>> The rain must have run off somewhere so it will carry on doing the
>> exactly that.
>>
>> If the pond is stream or spring fed, a run off area must have existed
>> before the pond. So again - no extra work is needed. Just dig the
>> hole, stock it, and enjoy.
>
>
>
>I have in effect a 4' deep hole x 6' long ... it has no stream, fills
>up from rain.
>
>For example I pumped out over 2' deep of it today, couple of hundred
>gallons.
>When it rains it fills up, then overflows, it's a simple fact that it
>does not drain away at all.
>
>Hence I need to allow for a pumped overflow.
provide a simple drain to some lower place?
I made the mistake of lining part of a *drain* on my land. Worked fine
all Summer. When the water table rose in the winter, the liner *floated*
and displaced the pond water. Bags of sand helped as did raising the
sides by 6". 15 years on, it has settled down.
>
>
--
Tim Lamb
Rick Hughes
Apr 1, 2013, 12:37:30 PM4/1/13
to
On 01/04/2013 10:43, Tim Lamb wrote:
>
> That isn't a pond. It's a sump.
Well ... I have a hole in the ground, and when it rains it turns into a
>
> That isn't a pond. It's a sump.
pond :-)
Measurement above missed a digit ... it's 4' deep by 16' long
> Where does it overflow to? Can you not provide a simple drain to some lower place?
there is nowhere lower ... the ground is not permeable so does not
support soakaways.
Hence this post ... I need to pump it away ... no other way to achieve this.
I do have surface water drain a few metres away so have somewhere to
pump it.
Toby
Apr 1, 2013, 1:19:44 PM4/1/13
to
Water in the pond will fill up to the point where the pipe is
horizontal, and if the water arriving into the pond is slow, will just
trickle over, however, if you get a deluge of water, it should start a
syphon, which will actively suck the water out, the longer the pipe that
goes down into the pump side, the stronger this suction will be (unless
it it too close to the bottom, then that will restrict the flow).
I am guessing that 32mm waste pipe would do the job here.
You will need to protect the pond end of the pipe, to stop stuff getting
sucked out, maybe two of these attached to each other at the open end
with cable ties, then a hole cut for the pipe.
http://www.ponddeals.com/images/products/4x4basket.gif
Toby...
Tim Lamb
Apr 1, 2013, 1:07:55 PM4/1/13
to
In message <LfCdnR__xr1TKsTM...@bt.com>, Rick Hughes
<rick_...@remove-me.btconnect.com> writes
And the surface water drain pipe is higher than the pond level you wish
to maintain?
I think we are all trying to head you away from an installed system
requiring a safe power supply (buried SWA cable), ELCB, pump and piping
plus a sump and float switch.
If gravity can't be used then bury a largish galvanised steel tank next
to your pond and create a channel such that the overflow fills the tank.
As others have said, float switches exist with a built in hysteresis so
that your pump doesn't short cycle. You might get away with a cheap pond
pump but if you are dealing with 0.75" of rain/hour worst case you can
calculate the pump rating required. Submersible sump pumps start around
70ukp and you need to consider frost damage!
--
Tim Lamb
<rick_...@remove-me.btconnect.com> writes
to maintain?
I think we are all trying to head you away from an installed system
requiring a safe power supply (buried SWA cable), ELCB, pump and piping
plus a sump and float switch.
If gravity can't be used then bury a largish galvanised steel tank next
to your pond and create a channel such that the overflow fills the tank.
As others have said, float switches exist with a built in hysteresis so
that your pump doesn't short cycle. You might get away with a cheap pond
pump but if you are dealing with 0.75" of rain/hour worst case you can
calculate the pump rating required. Submersible sump pumps start around
70ukp and you need to consider frost damage!
--
Tim Lamb
Rick Hughes
Apr 1, 2013, 6:23:18 PM4/1/13
to
be just above normal water level, and have a 2 vertical section in the
pond, and then have a 300mm vertical section in 'sump'
How do the float switch work on Hippo pumps .. the catalogue pic looks
like a rectangular box attached to a cable/pipe.
Understand it could switch on when water reaches it, but how does it get
any hysteresis .. if you make it longer or shorter (not disputing just
curious) Not even sure what it physically is.
Rick Hughes
Apr 1, 2013, 6:31:26 PM4/1/13
to
On 01/04/2013 18:07, Tim Lamb wrote:
>
> If gravity can't be used then bury a largish galvanised steel tank next
> to your pond and create a channel such that the overflow fills the tank.
> As others have said, float switches exist with a built in hysteresis so
> that your pump doesn't short cycle. You might get away with a cheap pond
> pump but if you are dealing with 0.75" of rain/hour worst case you can
> calculate the pump rating required. Submersible sump pumps start around
> 70ukp and you need to consider frost damage!
>
Drain is higher than water level of pond ... so can't use gravity feed.
>
> If gravity can't be used then bury a largish galvanised steel tank next
> to your pond and create a channel such that the overflow fills the tank.
> As others have said, float switches exist with a built in hysteresis so
> that your pump doesn't short cycle. You might get away with a cheap pond
> pump but if you are dealing with 0.75" of rain/hour worst case you can
> calculate the pump rating required. Submersible sump pumps start around
> 70ukp and you need to consider frost damage!
>
Was thinking of using a plastic cold water tank, in a brick lined hole.
N shaped drain pipe to obtain siphon that Toby explained ... and a HIPPO
submersible pump ...
They can be had for �54 (or less ... have to calculate aprox flow reqd)
Or the alternative a 12V bilge pump, these are expected to short cycle
as the float bounces around all the time on a boat.
12V would avoid any issues around power supply.
Toby
Apr 1, 2013, 6:33:15 PM4/1/13
to
will hold off at the far end of the box until it is tilted towards the
cable quite a lot, then the weight falls towards the cable end and
activates the pump.
The cable can be clipped to the pump to adjust the length, so the pump
comes on later or earlier, as a shorter cable will mean the angle is
greater for a set depth of water.
Tim Lamb
Apr 2, 2013, 4:00:58 AM4/2/13
to
In message <LpSdnQadN8cil8fM...@bt.com>, Rick Hughes
<rick_...@remove-me.btconnect.com> writes
>
>Or the alternative a 12V bilge pump, these are expected to short cycle
>as the float bounces around all the time on a boat.
>12V would avoid any issues around power supply.
Consider pump head when doing the sums. Pumping uphill dramatically
degrades the output performance of centrifugal pumps.
The siphon may not actually siphon but it is certainly better to take
the overflow from below any floating crap.
>
--
Tim Lamb
<rick_...@remove-me.btconnect.com> writes
>On 01/04/2013 18:07, Tim Lamb wrote:
>
>>
>> If gravity can't be used then bury a largish galvanised steel tank next
>> to your pond and create a channel such that the overflow fills the tank.
>> As others have said, float switches exist with a built in hysteresis so
>> that your pump doesn't short cycle. You might get away with a cheap pond
>> pump but if you are dealing with 0.75" of rain/hour worst case you can
>> calculate the pump rating required. Submersible sump pumps start around
>> 70ukp and you need to consider frost damage!
>>
>Drain is higher than water level of pond ... so can't use gravity feed.
Ah!
>
>>
>> If gravity can't be used then bury a largish galvanised steel tank next
>> to your pond and create a channel such that the overflow fills the tank.
>> As others have said, float switches exist with a built in hysteresis so
>> that your pump doesn't short cycle. You might get away with a cheap pond
>> pump but if you are dealing with 0.75" of rain/hour worst case you can
>> calculate the pump rating required. Submersible sump pumps start around
>> 70ukp and you need to consider frost damage!
>>
>Drain is higher than water level of pond ... so can't use gravity feed.
>
>Was thinking of using a plastic cold water tank, in a brick lined hole.
>N shaped drain pipe to obtain siphon that Toby explained ... and a
>HIPPO submersible pump ...
>They can be had for �54 (or less ... have to calculate aprox flow reqd)
Sounds fine. Maybe size it so a standard paving slab can act as a cover.
>Was thinking of using a plastic cold water tank, in a brick lined hole.
>N shaped drain pipe to obtain siphon that Toby explained ... and a
>HIPPO submersible pump ...
>They can be had for �54 (or less ... have to calculate aprox flow reqd)
>
>Or the alternative a 12V bilge pump, these are expected to short cycle
>as the float bounces around all the time on a boat.
>12V would avoid any issues around power supply.
degrades the output performance of centrifugal pumps.
The siphon may not actually siphon but it is certainly better to take
the overflow from below any floating crap.
>
--
Tim Lamb
Rick Hughes
Apr 2, 2013, 8:46:28 AM4/2/13
to
> Consider pump head when doing the sums. Pumping uphill dramatically
> degrades the output performance of centrifugal pumps.
>
> The siphon may not actually siphon but it is certainly better to take
> the overflow from below any floating crap.
>>
>
Bilge pumps easily cope with 1m lift as they have to kick out above
> degrades the output performance of centrifugal pumps.
>
> The siphon may not actually siphon but it is certainly better to take
> the overflow from below any floating crap.
>>
>
waterline, my lift would only be 300mm ... so I might consider one of these.
gb
Apr 3, 2013, 7:53:20 PM4/3/13
to
On 02/04/13 13:46, Rick Hughes wrote:
> my lift would only be 300mm ...
there will be natural run-off from the current water surface, then why
not consider building up and waterproofing the sides by this amount, and
allow the water to find its own level. Sounds as though it would be no
harder than constructing a brick lined hole for the tank (unless I've
got completely the wrong end of the stick - has been known lol)
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