double switch for outside lights

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jim

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Nov 18, 2008, 6:23:53 PM11/18/08
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I am about to add 2 outside wall lights. From inside the house it It
will not be obvious if it has been forgotten to switch off either.
Thus am looking for suitable double switch (preferably standard white)
with a worry factor built in such as a neon reminder.

Nearest I can find is two separate square switches with neon, (double
pole type intended for flex outlets) which would have to be mounted
side by side on a dual backing box.

Not very neat & switch rating is OTT. Any better suggestions would be
appreciated.

TIA

BigWallop

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Nov 18, 2008, 7:24:32 PM11/18/08
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"jim" <jim_in...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40e3885e-3106-4e86...@a17g2000prm.googlegroups.com...

A simple neon indicator lamp could be connected in series with the lamps.
Something as simple as this item from Maplin
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=31620&doy=19m11&C=SO&U=strat15#features
would allow internal indication that the lights are on.

The one shown can be fitted to a standard light switch by drilling a hole
above or below the internal switch gear. You would need a deeper back box
to allow the indicator to fit inside, but it is easier than buying two
separate Double Pole Switches for something as standard as a couple of
outside light fittings.

Shop around on the web to find out if you can find smaller versions of the
indicator lamp, but make sure you check that they are rated for mains
voltages (220 - 240 Vac).

Ideally the indicator would be connected to the switched live side of the
switches and a neutral, but it can also be connected across the switch live
feeds on a single pole system and it will still glow when either light is
switched on.


BigWallop

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Nov 18, 2008, 7:26:21 PM11/18/08
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"BigWallop" <spam....@good-spam-guard.com> wrote in message
news:41JUk.89719$E41....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
There are more here
http://electrical.playrecord.net/brands/electrovision.584/neon-indicators.c16/

meow...@care2.com

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Nov 18, 2008, 7:40:04 PM11/18/08
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BigWallop wrote:
> "jim" <jim_in...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:40e3885e-3106-4e86...@a17g2000prm.googlegroups.com...

> > I am about to add 2 outside wall lights. From inside the house it It
> > will not be obvious if it has been forgotten to switch off either.
> > Thus am looking for suitable double switch (preferably standard white)
> > with a worry factor built in such as a neon reminder.
> >
> > Nearest I can find is two separate square switches with neon, (double
> > pole type intended for flex outlets) which would have to be mounted
> > side by side on a dual backing box.
> >
> > Not very neat & switch rating is OTT. Any better suggestions would be
> > appreciated.
> >
> > TIA
> >
>
> A simple neon indicator lamp could be connected

best option

> in series with the lamps.

parallel tho

> Something as simple as this item from Maplin
> http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=31620&doy=19m11&C=SO&U=strat15#features
> would allow internal indication that the lights are on.
>
> The one shown can be fitted to a standard light switch by drilling a hole
> above or below the internal switch gear. You would need a deeper back box
> to allow the indicator to fit inside, but it is easier than buying two
> separate Double Pole Switches for something as standard as a couple of
> outside light fittings.
>
> Shop around on the web to find out if you can find smaller versions of the
> indicator lamp, but make sure you check that they are rated for mains
> voltages (220 - 240 Vac).
>
> Ideally the indicator would be connected to the switched live side of the
> switches and a neutral, but it can also be connected across the switch live
> feeds on a single pole system and it will still glow when either light is
> switched on.

You could, but it then would be off when both lights were on. I've
seen neons connected switched live to earth before - somehow I doubt
its regs compliant these days, if it ever was.


NT

Dave Plowman (News)

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Nov 18, 2008, 7:35:26 PM11/18/08
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In article
<40e3885e-3106-4e86...@a17g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,

You could drill and fit LED indicators to a standard 2 gang switch. For AC
use you fit a diode in parallel with the LED, but reverse polarity. And
the usual current limiting series resistor.

> TIA

--
*Microsoft broke Volkswagen's record: They only made 21.4 million bugs.

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

BigWallop

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Nov 18, 2008, 8:05:43 PM11/18/08
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<meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:91b27854-e182-4c1d...@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> BigWallop wrote:
<<<snipped>>>

> >
> > A simple neon indicator lamp could be connected
>
> best option
>
> > in series with the lamps.
>
> parallel tho
>
OOPs !!! Series is a serious mistook. :-)


BigWallop

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Nov 18, 2008, 8:20:38 PM11/18/08
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<meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:91b27854-e182-4c1d...@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> BigWallop wrote:
> > "jim" <jim_in...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >
news:40e3885e-3106-4e86...@a17g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
>
<<<snipped>>>

> > Ideally the indicator would be connected to the switched live side of
the
> > switches and a neutral, but it can also be connected across the switch
live
> > feeds on a single pole system and it will still glow when either light
is
> > switched on.
>
> You could, but it then would be off when both lights were on. I've
> seen neons connected switched live to earth before - somehow I doubt
> its regs compliant these days, if it ever was.
>
> NT
>

I was thinking of just a glow if one light was left on. Connected across
the live feeds to both switches on the 2 gang. If either switch goes on and
the indicator finds a path to neutral, it glows and indicates that one light
has been left on.

Tim S

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Nov 19, 2008, 3:23:55 AM11/19/08
to
jim coughed up some electrons that declared:

Still going to be a double box - but how about a 4 module gridswitch, two
light switch modules and two indicator modules (all available even at B&Q)?

Other than that, I think it will have to be a homebrew effort as suggested
by others.

Cheers

Tim

David Hansen

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Nov 19, 2008, 3:25:04 AM11/19/08
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On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:23:53 -0800 (PST) someone who may be jim
<jim_in...@hotmail.com> wrote this:-

>I am about to add 2 outside wall lights. From inside the house it It
>will not be obvious if it has been forgotten to switch off either.
>Thus am looking for suitable double switch (preferably standard white)
>with a worry factor built in such as a neon reminder.

Use grid components (Crabtree and MK have ranges) to make precisely
the switch you want.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Kevin

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Nov 19, 2008, 4:26:27 AM11/19/08
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the simplest way would be to wire a neon across the switch,it will light
when the lights are off and go off if the lights are on

--
Kevin R
Reply address works

Mike

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Nov 19, 2008, 5:45:19 AM11/19/08
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How do most people work out if the lights in the house are on or off?

1) look at the light fitting - if it's bright the light is on
2) or if the lamp has blown or is out of sight you look at the light
switch and see if it's in the up position

Can't you just look at the switch?

--

Andy Burns

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Nov 19, 2008, 5:48:26 AM11/19/08
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Mike wrote:

> How do most people work out if the lights in the house are on or off?
>

> look at the light
> switch and see if it's in the up position

What if it's two (or more) way switching?

Man at B&Q

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Nov 19, 2008, 5:56:20 AM11/19/08
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On Nov 19, 12:24 am, "BigWallop" <spam.gu...@good-spam-guard.com>
wrote:

> A simple neon indicator lamp could be connected in series with the lamps.

^^^^^^ ????

MBQ

David Hansen

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Nov 19, 2008, 6:30:57 AM11/19/08
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On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:23:53 -0800 (PST) someone who may be jim
<jim_in...@hotmail.com> wrote this:-

>I am about to add 2 outside wall lights. From inside the house it It


>will not be obvious if it has been forgotten to switch off either.
>Thus am looking for suitable double switch (preferably standard white)
>with a worry factor built in such as a neon reminder.

<http://www.screwfix.com/prods/52402/Electrical/Switches-Sockets/White-Moulded/Crabtree-Anti-Microbial/Crabtree-Anti-Microbial-4G-Mld-Plt-Mtl-Grid>

<http://www.screwfix.com/prods/28480/Electrical/Switches-Sockets/White-Moulded/Crabtree-Anti-Microbial/Crabtree-Anti-Microbial-10AX-1W-Rockergrid-Sw>

<http://www.screwfix.com/prods/31822/Electrical/Switches-Sockets/White-Moulded/Crabtree-Anti-Microbial/Crabtree-Anti-Microbial-10AX-Retractive-Rkrgrid-Sw>

Yes I know the description and photograph of the last item don't
agree. Use your ingenuity to find the right one.

They or MK may do switches with built in neons, which would mean
only using a single width box and face plate.

Rod

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Nov 19, 2008, 6:32:23 AM11/19/08
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Anyway, the switch being 'on' doesn't demonstrate that the light is on.
Lamp failure? Circuit protection 'off'?

Obviously need a CCTV system... :-)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
<www.thyromind.info> <www.thyroiduk.org> <www.altsupportthyroid.org>

Tony Bryer

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Nov 19, 2008, 6:55:31 AM11/19/08
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On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:48:26 +0000 Andy Burns wrote :
> What if it's two (or more) way switching?

Two or more should be wired so that all up = off IMO

--
Tony Bryer, 'Software to build on' from Greentram
www.superbeam.co.uk www.superbeam.com www.greentram.com

Kevin

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Nov 19, 2008, 7:13:25 AM11/19/08
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Tony Bryer wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:48:26 +0000 Andy Burns wrote :
>> What if it's two (or more) way switching?
>
> Two or more should be wired so that all up = off IMO
>
thats ok if you can see both, not much use if ones in the garage and the
other is in the house

Mike

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Nov 19, 2008, 9:05:14 AM11/19/08
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Two way switching on outside lights???? For what reason?

A workable solution is to have a photocell feeding into a telemetry
system signalling via GSM or sat-phone back to a console in the bat
cave...or just have the butler go and check the light for you.

--

Man at B&Q

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Nov 19, 2008, 9:52:53 AM11/19/08
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On Nov 19, 2:05 pm, Mike <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:48:26 +0000, Andy Burns
>
> <usenet.oct2...@adslpipe.co.uk> wrote:
> >Mike wrote:
>
> >> How do most people work out if the lights in the house are on or off?
>
> >> look at the light
> >> switch and see if it's in the up position
>
> >What if it's two (or more) way switching?
>
> Two way switching on outside lights????   For what reason?

So you can switch them on when you come home in the dark fumbling for
your keys, and switch them off again once you are indoors.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

MBQ

Kevin

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Nov 19, 2008, 9:58:59 AM11/19/08
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just curious that would seem the ideal case for a PIR light

Man at B&Q

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Nov 19, 2008, 10:48:06 AM11/19/08
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Which flicks on and off every time someone, or an animal, walks by.

MBQ

meow...@care2.com

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Nov 19, 2008, 10:59:00 AM11/19/08
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jim wrote:

If you dont have a neutral accessible and aren't willing to use the
earth as a return for a neon, there are other options.

1. Put an LED in series with the feed to the lights. It'll need both
series and parallel Rs. Pick them so mean LED run current is 2-4mA,
then the peak i at switch on wont be too far above the LED ratings.

2. Use a series resistor or diode plus some electronics anywhere
suitable in the light circuit to detect current flow.

3. Place a very small mirror somewhere so you can see the light bulb
from wherver you tend to sit.


NT

Kevin

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Nov 19, 2008, 11:02:45 AM11/19/08
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depends on the sensor

David Hansen

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Nov 19, 2008, 12:36:47 PM11/19/08
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On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:05:14 +0000 someone who may be Mike
<nos...@nospam.com> wrote this:-

>Two way switching on outside lights???? For what reason?

If one has a shed, garage or whatever it can be useful to turn
lights on/off from two or more locations.

dennis@home

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Nov 19, 2008, 2:48:19 PM11/19/08
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"David Hansen" <SENDdavi...@spidacom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7jj8i493munigeq95...@4ax.com...


> On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:05:14 +0000 someone who may be Mike
> <nos...@nospam.com> wrote this:-
>
>>Two way switching on outside lights???? For what reason?
>
> If one has a shed, garage or whatever it can be useful to turn
> lights on/off from two or more locations.

Yes.
I use a remote controlled socket to do that.
It works from anywhere in the house or garden.
IIRC it was £15 for a remote and three sockets.

Mike

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Nov 20, 2008, 6:09:10 PM11/20/08
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On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:36:47 +0000, David Hansen
<SENDdavi...@spidacom.co.uk> wrote:

>On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:05:14 +0000 someone who may be Mike
><nos...@nospam.com> wrote this:-
>
>>Two way switching on outside lights???? For what reason?
>
>If one has a shed, garage or whatever it can be useful to turn
>lights on/off from two or more locations.

If it's that far away you can't see the light then you're probably
breaking the rules regarding the equipotential zone.


--

Mike

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Nov 20, 2008, 6:14:07 PM11/20/08
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On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:58:59 +0000, Kevin <donte...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

Exactly.


--

David Hansen

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Nov 21, 2008, 8:51:46 AM11/21/08
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On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:09:10 +0000 someone who may be Mike
<nos...@nospam.com> wrote this:-

>>If one has a shed, garage or whatever it can be useful to turn


>>lights on/off from two or more locations.
>
>If it's that far away you can't see the light then you're probably
>breaking the rules regarding the equipotential zone.

Who said anything about not being able to see the light, of the
house presumably?

As for the wiring regulations and equipotential zones, they can be
complied with while still arranging switching from two or mo
relocations.

terry

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Nov 21, 2008, 10:32:10 AM11/21/08
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On Nov 21, 10:51 am, David Hansen <SENDdavidNOhS...@spidacom.co.uk>
wrote:

Sounds like an application for what over here is called (somewhat
oddly) a "3 way switch", although there are only two switches, such as
at the top and bottom of the stairs, to control a single light (or
several) for those stairs!

Maybe it's reference to the fact there are often three wires between
the two switches? Note 1.

In it's simplest form the live wire that is switched on and off by,
normally a single ON/OFF switch, is routed via both switches. Which
with the addition of that third wire allows one switch to be off and
the other to be on; alternately.

Both switches have to be of the CHANGEOVER type which usually cost a
little more (maybe 50cent to one dollar more each) than a regular ON/
OFF type.

Mounts in same wall box and requires a three conductor cable between
switches. The three conductor costs a little more than two conductor
(Including of course ground/earth). Thus, correctly wired, moving
either changeover switch to the other position causes light to go
either on or off. Have seen the same arrangement in UK homes.

In this Canadian house we use it for a staircase a bedroom passageway
and also for some outside lights that are not motion sensor operated.

There is also another option that involves the use of a third special
switch, (a switch that literally swaps over the two live wires going
through it) which is located between the other two, mentioned. That
allows a three switch (and I'm guessing one could have more than
three?) operation of one set of lights! If basic diagram needed please
email.

Cheers.

Andy Wade

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Nov 21, 2008, 7:13:37 PM11/21/08
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terry wrote:

> There is also another option that involves the use of a third special
> switch, (a switch that literally swaps over the two live wires going
> through it) which is located between the other two, mentioned.

Over here (UK) we call that an 'intermediate switch'. What are they
called on your side of the pond?

> That allows a three switch (and I'm guessing one could have more than
> three?)

Yes, you can have as many intermediates as you like, in between two
2-way (your 3-way) switches.

--
Andy

George (dicegeorge)

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Nov 21, 2008, 7:21:38 PM11/21/08
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It would seem sensible to me to mount
intermediate and corridor switches sideways,
left to right,
so people dont assume up is off and down is off.

Is there a regulation banning this
or would it just look odd?

--

[george]


"Andy Wade" <spamb...@maxwell.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6op152F...@mid.individual.net...

Owain

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Nov 21, 2008, 7:24:23 PM11/21/08
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terry wrote:
> Sounds like an application for what over here is called (somewhat
> oddly) a "3 way switch", although there are only two switches, such as
> at the top and bottom of the stairs, to control a single light (or
> several) for those stairs!
...

> There is also another option that involves the use of a third special
> switch, (a switch that literally swaps over the two live wires going
> through it) which is located between the other two, mentioned. That
> allows a three switch (and I'm guessing one could have more than
> three?) operation of one set of lights! If basic diagram needed please
> email.

Yeah, we do that. The swapover switch is called an 'intermediate' and
does indeed allow an unlimited number of control points.

Owain


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