hollow wall anchor setting tool

[Fred]

Hi,

In the past, I have always tightened hollow wall anchors like these:
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Screws+Fixings/Cavity+Fixings/Hollow+Wall+Anchor+5+x+52/d90/sd1930/p53569
using a screwdriver, without troubles.

Today when I did this, I had one anchor spin in the wall and erode
away the plaster, presumably weakening the fixing. It didn't help that
I then over tightened it, pulling even further into the wall!

I have seen fixing tools like this:
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Screws+Fixings/Cavity+Fixings/Setting+Tool/d90/sd1930/p96740

and always thought (wrongly) that when you pull the handle, it must
turn the bolt. I have done some googling and it would appear that
actually they just pull the bolt without rotating it.

Are these a case of you get what you pay for? Should I buy a dearer
brand (if so, which?) or are these cheapies at Toolstation and Amazon
as good as any other?

I just wondered what you had used these anchors to hold? I found
examples on the web of people holding radiators with them and wash
basins. I would have thought these were best into noggins. Surely
something as heavy as a full radiator would be pulled off?

TIA
Fred

[Ghostrecon]

the setting tool makes so much difference, I have been using one from
screwfix for years
http://www.screwfix.com/p/setting-tool/12429

was a lot cheaper when I bought it about a £5 IIRC - I sometimes find that
brnging it into a warm house from a cold shed encouraging comndensation on
the friction bearing surfaces which makes it slip a little, you also have
to be aware that the puller is attached to the shaft by a screw which
sometines works looes and can strip its thread if not tightened up - often
hang heaey item using decent sized wall anchors like these - only smallish
radators though -
--
(º•.¸(¨*•.¸ ¸.•*¨)¸.•º)
<.•°•. Nik .•°•.>
(¸.•º(¸.•¨* *¨•.¸)º•.¸)

[Roger Mills]

I bought a setting tool from Screwfix - which looks very similar to the
Toolstation one, and at a similar price - and it works fine.

It definitely *doesn't* rotate the screw - it pushes the body of the
fixing against the plasterboard and pulls the head of the screw away
from the wall - thus compressing the gubbins at the back to be a tight
fit on the plasterboard. You then have to unscrew the screw, pass it
through whatever you are fixing to the wall, and re-screw it into what
is now a very secure captive nut.

Whilst it's always good to screw into a frame member or noggin when
possible, these fittings will take a lot of weight - and are as strong
as the plasterboard. Plasterboard is actually quite strong as long as it
is adequately supported.

I have used these fixings for all sorts of things - including a ceramic
washbasin, albeit on a pedestal so that the fixing wasn't taking the
whole, weight. [I had to buy some longer screws to go through the tiles].

I don't think I've actually used them for a radiator - but I would have
no particular worries about doing so - as long as the plasterboard wall
was sound.

The only limitation I've found is when you need two screws very close
together. They must be a certain minimum distance apart - otherwise the
spready bits at the back interfere with each other. You can put them
*fairly* close if you pay careful attention to the orientation so that
'petals' of one fit in the gaps between those of the other.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

[John Rumm]

On 06/11/2011 19:16, Fred wrote:

> In the past, I have always tightened hollow wall anchors like these:
> http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Screws+Fixings/Cavity+Fixings/Hollow+Wall+Anchor+5+x+52/d90/sd1930/p53569
> using a screwdriver, without troubles.

That works... but I prefer using the setting tool.

> Today when I did this, I had one anchor spin in the wall and erode
> away the plaster, presumably weakening the fixing. It didn't help that
> I then over tightened it, pulling even further into the wall!
>
> I have seen fixing tools like this:
> http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Screws+Fixings/Cavity+Fixings/Setting+Tool/d90/sd1930/p96740
>
> and always thought (wrongly) that when you pull the handle, it must
> turn the bolt. I have done some googling and it would appear that
> actually they just pull the bolt without rotating it.

No it just pulls the bolt head using the flange on sleeve to restrain
it. Thereby folding the anchor into its "fixed" position. You can then
take the bolt out and the anchor stays firmly put.

> Are these a case of you get what you pay for? Should I buy a dearer
> brand (if so, which?) or are these cheapies at Toolstation and Amazon
> as good as any other?

I have a basic cheap one, seems to work ok.

> I just wondered what you had used these anchors to hold? I found
> examples on the web of people holding radiators with them and wash
> basins. I would have thought these were best into noggins. Surely
> something as heavy as a full radiator would be pulled off?

A radiator is fine since most of the load is in shear. A basin would be
a much more difficult load to support on plasterboard since it will have
significant "pull" on the fixing. Might be ok if its the type with a
supporting bracket.

Personally I have done rads, and large flat screen TVs (although that
was in a commercial site onto plasterboard where shop fitters typically
use two layers, which makes them harder to set. Also curtain poles etc.


--
Cheers,

John.

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[Dave Liquorice]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2011 19:16:42 +0000, Fred wrote:

> In the past, I have always tightened hollow wall anchors like these:

> using a screwdriver, without troubles.

I used to do that but bought the setting tool and selection of
anchors that Aldl had the other month. Wouldn't go back to the
screwdriver method now, with the tool you know it has been set
correctly not partially set or over done.

I'm going to play with it and plasterboard with foam insulation
bonded to the back as a lot of walls here are like that now. The foam
seems fairly friable so I don't think it will be a problem but I'll
set one or two into an off cut then dig away the foam and see what
has happened.

As for load bearing, they spread it over quite and area behind the
board and most loads are sheer. Must admit I'd be wary about fixing a
wash basin with them but that's more down to the plasterboard
deforming over time rather than a failure of the fixing.

I wonder what the plumber is going to use to fix the radiators to the
plasterboard/foam walls?

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Scott M]

Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Nov 2011 19:16:42 +0000, Fred wrote:
>
>> In the past, I have always tightened hollow wall anchors like these:
>> using a screwdriver, without troubles.
>
> I used to do that but bought the setting tool and selection of
> anchors that Aldl had the other month. Wouldn't go back to the
> screwdriver method now, with the tool you know it has been set
> correctly not partially set or over done.

*Exactly* what I was going to say!

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

[Scott M]

John Rumm wrote:

> ... onto plasterboard where shop fitters typically

> use two layers, which makes them harder to set.

You can get them with longer shanks. I had some for years with ~1"
sections before realising exactly what they were intended for!

Also, as an aside, on Friday I used four to hold a 10kg 94" projector
screen to a plasterboard ceiling....
.
.
.
.
.

Modern flat with that metal strip stuff instead of wooden joists so I
located the steel and drilled through both it and the p'board. Pushed
the fixings through both, tightened and job was a good'un.

[Mike Clarke]

On 06/11/2011 21:25, Dave Liquorice wrote:

> I'm going to play with it and plasterboard with foam insulation
> bonded to the back as a lot of walls here are like that now. The foam
> seems fairly friable so I don't think it will be a problem but I'll
> set one or two into an off cut then dig away the foam and see what
> has happened.

BTDTWTTS, found them to expand and grip without problem.

--
Mike Clarke

[The Medway Handyman]

I'd agree - makes the job painless. Only problem I've had is when using
the smaller anchors - the gap in the jaw is too wide - a washer on the
bolt sorts it.



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[Fred]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2011 20:21:47 +0000, John Rumm
<see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:

>I have a basic cheap one, seems to work ok.

Thanks. I wasn't sure whether these were like crimp tools, where you
needed a decent one to work, but judging from all the replies, the
cheap ones are just as good, so I'll go ahead and order one of those.

[Fred]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2011 21:25:10 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
<allsortsn...@howhill.co.uk> wrote:

>with the tool you know it has been set
>correctly not partially set or over done.

How does the tool "know" the bolt has been pulled as far as it can?
After all, you can get these in different lengths, so surely it would
have to pull longer bolts further to fully set them?

I can see that if it was under done, the "petals" would not have
opened fully, so would distribute the weight over a smaller area. What
is the problem of over doing it? Is it that it starts to draw the
fixing into the plasterboard, enlarging the hole?

To use the tool, do you pull the "trigger" once or do you have to pump
it a couple of times?

>As for load bearing, they spread it over quite and area behind the
>board and most loads are sheer. Must admit I'd be wary about fixing a
>wash basin with them but that's more down to the plasterboard
>deforming over time rather than a failure of the fixing.

I am surprised you can fit radiators with them, I hadn't realised
plasterboard was so strong. I had visions of the fitting being pulled
through the plasterboard and the plasterboard, rather than the fixing,
breaking.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 07 Nov 2011 21:35:21 +0000, Fred wrote:

> How does the tool "know" the bolt has been pulled as far as it can?
> After all, you can get these in different lengths, so surely it would
> have to pull longer bolts further to fully set them?

It's feel, as you pull the trigger there is some "give" as the petals
start to deform, easy pulling for a bit, then it becomes very solid
when the pyramid has been fully formed. I guess if one was well into
brute force and ignorance one could mangle the fitting but it would
take serious effort.

> I can see that if it was under done, the "petals" would not have
> opened fully, so would distribute the weight over a smaller area.

And possibly continue to deform to the correct place under load
loosening the fitting.

> What is the problem of over doing it? Is it that it starts to draw the
> fixing into the plasterboard, enlarging the hole?

That isn't going to happen with a setting tool. A screwdriver doesn't
give the same level of feedback and there is the temptation to
tighten things up too much. Particulalry if things have not gone
"solid" , these things go firm but not solid under the influence of a
screwdriver.

> To use the tool, do you pull the "trigger" once or do you have to pump
> it a couple of times?

Depends on the fixing some are longer than others... The small ones
take less than a single squeeze.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Scott M]

Fred wrote:

> How does the tool "know" the bolt has been pulled as far as it can?

It doesn't, you have to!

Like tightening a stiff nut, you feel a moderate increate in resistance
and have to know to stop otherwise you'll just crush the board.

> To use the tool, do you pull the "trigger" once or do you have to pump
> it a couple of times?

Like mastic guns you "pump" them.

[John Rumm]

On 07/11/2011 21:35, Fred wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Nov 2011 21:25:10 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
> <allsortsn...@howhill.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> with the tool you know it has been set
>> correctly not partially set or over done.
>
> How does the tool "know" the bolt has been pulled as far as it can?

You feel the resistance step up dramatically...

> After all, you can get these in different lengths, so surely it would
> have to pull longer bolts further to fully set them?

Yes.

> I can see that if it was under done, the "petals" would not have
> opened fully, so would distribute the weight over a smaller area. What
> is the problem of over doing it? Is it that it starts to draw the
> fixing into the plasterboard, enlarging the hole?

Probably - although that would be hard to do with a setting tool.

> To use the tool, do you pull the "trigger" once or do you have to pump
> it a couple of times?

Several times - more than two usually - its a bit like one of those
single handed clamps if you ever used one. The action is quite "geared
down".

>> As for load bearing, they spread it over quite and area behind the
>> board and most loads are sheer. Must admit I'd be wary about fixing a
>> wash basin with them but that's more down to the plasterboard
>> deforming over time rather than a failure of the fixing.
>
> I am surprised you can fit radiators with them, I hadn't realised
> plasterboard was so strong. I had visions of the fitting being pulled
> through the plasterboard and the plasterboard, rather than the fixing,
> breaking.

Plaster board is actually very strong with loads in shear. Its far less
good with loads under tension. Needless to say, rads are close to the
wall, and present most of their load in shear.

(usually when fixing to a stud wall, you can arrange for at least one
rad bracket to align with a stud. Then you only need a PB fixing on one
side).

[Fred]

On Tue, 08 Nov 2011 16:36:17 +0000, John Rumm
<see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:

>usually when fixing to a stud wall, you can arrange for at least one
>rad bracket to align with a stud. Then you only need a PB fixing on one
>side).

Thanks for all the replies. A no-name tool arrived in the post from
Tool station today, ready for next time I have to use these fixings.
Now that I have got one, you can guarantee I won't need to use it for
a while!

Sorry if I did not make myself clear; my remarks about under and over
tightening were about using screwdrivers, not the setting tool.

It's an interesting point you've made about fixing one radiator
bracket to a stud and the other to an anchor. Fortunately, the only
time I ever fitted a radiator to a stud wall, I built the wall first
and positioned extra studs where I knew the radiator would be, but now
I know for next time.

Thanks again everyone.