Digging fence post holes - auger or "post hole digger"?

[unknown]

Previously I've just used a spade to dig-out holes for concrete spurs
but I'm tempted by either an auger or a "post hole digger" ... which
works best?
These are available from several places; the SF ones get good reviews
but look a bit expensive compared to the others ... is the extra cost
justified?

Supplementary: how much postcrete am I likely to need when setting a
75x75 spur into a 600x150'ish round hole? (I know I could do some sums
but in this case I think benefitting from experience is going to give a
better estimate)

[Rick Hughes]

pi x r2 x depth = volume required

[The Medway Handyman]

On 13/04/2013 14:59, unknown wrote:

> Previously I've just used a spade to dig-out holes for concrete spurs
> but I'm tempted by either an auger or a "post hole digger" ... which
> works best?

No experience of a auger. Post hole diggers work a treat.

> These are available from several places; the SF ones get good reviews
> but look a bit expensive compared to the others ... is the extra cost
> justified?

Got mine from Wickes years ago.

>
> Supplementary: how much postcrete am I likely to need when setting a
> 75x75 spur into a 600x150'ish round hole? (I know I could do some sums
> but in this case I think benefitting from experience is going to give a
> better estimate)

I reckon a bag a hole max.
--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[Tim Lamb]

In message <SqCdnU3J05F-AfTM...@bt.com>, Rick Hughes
<rick_...@remove-me.btconnect.com> writes

Less that displaced by the post?

--
Tim Lamb

[Onetap]

On Saturday, April 13, 2013 2:59:56 PM UTC+1, unknown wrote:

I used a post-hole auger west of London and it was great. The soil was clay and it was like drilling holes in plasticine.

I borrowed it again and used it in Essex; utter waste of time. The soil was sandy and gravelly, the auger wouldn't drill and the holes collapsed. I found a long trenching spade to be easier.

[Phil L]

buy cement and ballast and mix your own, or if there's a lot, buy a tonne
bag each of sharp sand and 10mm gravel....trying to make the hole smaller is
cutting down on concrete, thereby defeating the object of making a hole at
all.

[Dave W]

Should you even be thinking of concrete in the first place? My
neighbour's fence has keeled over because two of the fence posts have
rotted in the concrete. According to several web sources this is not
uncommon, owing to water seeping down and staying there to rot the
wood.

She will be having a man in to dismantle the fence enough to be able
to dig out the large lumps of concrete. The man said the existing hole
in the concrete was too deep to drill out the old wood. While my
neighbour is saving up to afford the enormous cost, I am going to try
and drill out the wood using a 460cm x 18mm auger I got off ebay.

Maybe you would be better using Metposts?

--
Dave W

[ARW]

Dave W wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 18:58:56 +0100, Rick Hughes
> <rick_...@remove-me.btconnect.com> wrote:
>
>> On 13/04/2013 14:59, unknown wrote:
>>> Previously I've just used a spade to dig-out holes for concrete
>>> spurs but I'm tempted by either an auger or a "post hole digger"
>>> ... which works best?
>>> These are available from several places; the SF ones get good
>>> reviews but look a bit expensive compared to the others ... is the
>>> extra cost justified?
>>>
>>> Supplementary: how much postcrete am I likely to need when setting a
>>> 75x75 spur into a 600x150'ish round hole? (I know I could do some
>>> sums but in this case I think benefitting from experience is going
>>> to give a better estimate)
>>
>>
>> pi x r2 x depth = volume required
>
> Should you even be thinking of concrete in the first place? My
> neighbour's fence has keeled over because two of the fence posts have
> rotted in the concrete. According to several web sources this is not
> uncommon, owing to water seeping down and staying there to rot the
> wood.

That will not happen to the OPs concrete spurs will it:-)?

--
Adam

[dennis@home]

You don't usually need concrete at all for fence posts.
If the hole doesn't collapse when you dig it a bit of gravel compacted
around it works fine.
You don't see many telephone poles concreted in.

[polygonum]

Telephone poles have certain differences to fence posts:

They are very often installed using a purpose-built vehicle with auger
bit which is JUST the right size to allow clearance of the pole. So they
have a nice, clean hole. Not a bloody great mess with collapsing sides.

They go very much deeper than fence posts.

Any gravel used to pack out a telephone pole would amount to a very thin
layer over a long length of pole.

Not to say that concrete is always necessary for fence posts - but
sometimes it is.

--
Rod

[charles]

In article <516a72b3$0$2264$c3e8da3$40d4...@news.astraweb.com>,

True, but they tend to go in far deeper and the hole is machine made. When
the hole has to be dug with a spade there is a large void round the post.
Gravel tends to migrate into the surrounding soil.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[ARW]

dennis know all about digging holes.

--
Adam

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <s9fjm8tj3r89r9jfu...@4ax.com>,

Dave W <dave...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> Should you even be thinking of concrete in the first place? My
> neighbour's fence has keeled over because two of the fence posts have
> rotted in the concrete. According to several web sources this is not
> uncommon, owing to water seeping down and staying there to rot the
> wood.

Yes, if you put the posts into concrete (or into the ground),
expect them to start failing after about 5 years.

> She will be having a man in to dismantle the fence enough to be able
> to dig out the large lumps of concrete. The man said the existing hole
> in the concrete was too deep to drill out the old wood. While my
> neighbour is saving up to afford the enormous cost, I am going to try
> and drill out the wood using a 460cm x 18mm auger I got off ebay.

If the concrete is substantial, cut a metapost spike short, and
hammer it into the old stump without removing any of it. You can
get repair metaposts specifically designed for this, but they're
harder to find - I've only ever done it with the standard spikes,
having cut the spikes shorter.

> Maybe you would be better using Metposts?

He is, well concrete spurs, which is the best solution IMHO when
starting from scratch, although my 25 year old metapost fence is
still doing fine, but the metaposts were better quality 25 years
ago (the make was Fensock, which no longer exists).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[dennis@home]

On 14/04/2013 10:44, charles wrote:
> In article <516a72b3$0$2264$c3e8da3$40d4...@news.astraweb.com>,
> dennis@home <den...@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote:

8<

>> You don't usually need concrete at all for fence posts. If the hole
>> doesn't collapse when you dig it a bit of gravel compacted around it
>> works fine. You don't see many telephone poles concreted in.
>
> True, but they tend to go in far deeper and the hole is machine made. When
> the hole has to be dug with a spade there is a large void round the post.
> Gravel tends to migrate into the surrounding soil.
>

The holes are frequently hand dug with a post hole tool.
If you use the auger on loose soil the hole collapses and you can't get
the pole to stay up.

AIUI they dig with post hole tool until they hit clay and then use the
auger.
If they don't hit clay they dig it all by hand.

Its actually quite easy to dig a neat hole with a post hole tool unless
you hit lots of rocks/house bricks.

[charles]

In article <516a9feb$0$58213$c3e8da3$88b2...@news.astraweb.com>,

or flints

[polygonum]

Especially when the flints are the best part of a foot across.

DAMHIKT

--
Rod

[ss]

It depends on the unknown :-) I have just used an auger in decent soils
....for the first 16 inches then one hole had a large piece of slab,
another had 2 bricks and another had a wall buried.
Unless you have known issues (like flint) then its pot luck.
Having said that I found the auger much quicker,neater and less work
than digging.

[David.WE.Roberts]

As others have said, it depends on the ground!

I bought an augur.
It was no good in gravel or sandy soil and I gave it away on Freegle.

I now use the 'two spoons tied together' tool for removing waste from the
hole when it starts to get deep.

To dig the hole I start with a spade - also a trenching spade which is
good for keeping the walls of the hole reasonably small.

If the ground is soft I then dig out with the post hole digger described
above.

When we did the fence here with concrete posts a few years back the sandy
ground was so dry it was like rock and we had to break it up with a long
iron bar before digging it out.

I use PostCrete or similar, about one bag per hole (depending on how
vertical the sides of the hole are I sometimes get away with two bags to
three holes).
There are cheaper ways but it just does the job with no hassle.
You don't have to fill the hole completely - just get a lump of concrete
which grips the post at the bottom and grips the ground around it.

Cheers

Dave R

[newshound]

+1. Auger is normally OK except in very sandy gravelly soils.

[polygonum]

Precisely how do you use an auger through a layer of clay with many
massive embedded flints? Your exception clause is woefully inadequate, I
fear.

--
Rod

[PeterC]

Or, as I did, a rusted 5 gallon drum when only about 3" more needed - at
least I had a fair bit of soil handy.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

[Dave W]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 10:09:57 +0000 (UTC), and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

>In article <s9fjm8tj3r89r9jfu...@4ax.com>,
> Dave W <dave...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>> Should you even be thinking of concrete in the first place? My
>> neighbour's fence has keeled over because two of the fence posts have
>> rotted in the concrete. According to several web sources this is not
>> uncommon, owing to water seeping down and staying there to rot the
>> wood.
>
>Yes, if you put the posts into concrete (or into the ground),
>expect them to start failing after about 5 years.
>
>> She will be having a man in to dismantle the fence enough to be able
>> to dig out the large lumps of concrete. The man said the existing hole
>> in the concrete was too deep to drill out the old wood. While my
>> neighbour is saving up to afford the enormous cost, I am going to try
>> and drill out the wood using a 460cm x 18mm auger I got off ebay.
>
>If the concrete is substantial, cut a metapost spike short, and
>hammer it into the old stump without removing any of it. You can
>get repair metaposts specifically designed for this, but they're
>harder to find - I've only ever done it with the standard spikes,
>having cut the spikes shorter.
>

That was the first suggestion I made to 'the man', but he said he'd
tried that and it didn't work. Maybe he didn't try hard enough.
--
Dave W

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <ast6mu...@mid.individual.net>,

unknown <unk...@unknown.com> writes:
> Previously I've just used a spade to dig-out holes for concrete spurs
> but I'm tempted by either an auger or a "post hole digger" ... which
> works best?
> These are available from several places; the SF ones get good reviews
> but look a bit expensive compared to the others ... is the extra cost
> justified?

One comment I would make - make sure the holes have flat bottoms
with good square corners where the base meets the side. Many years
ago, I dug a couple of holes for a neighbour, and I did as I said
here. The holes he dug were shaped like someone had pushed a football
into the soil. A year later in a strong wind, all his concrete lumps
rotated in their holes leaving his bit of the fence leaning (none of
the posts snapped), and the ones I did were still upright.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 16:36:31 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:

> One comment I would make - make sure the holes have flat bottoms
> with good square corners where the base meets the side. Many years
> ago, I dug a couple of holes for a neighbour, and I did as I said
> here. The holes he dug were shaped like someone had pushed a football
> into the soil. A year later in a strong wind, all his concrete lumps
> rotated in their holes leaving his bit of the fence leaning (none of
> the posts snapped), and the ones I did were still upright.

Sounds more like they wern't deep enough. Rule of thumb is 1/3 in the
ground as is above. 6' fence uses 8' posts with 2' in the ground.

Admitedly a square lump is less likely to rotate than a ball (in socket).

--
Cheers
Dave.

[hewhowalksamongus]

I have been having the same thoughts.

I think an auger is too specific and can suffer a lot if conditions
arn't ideal for it.
The post hole diggers ("the scoops hinged together") look great and are
efficient, but pricey and can't help you dig out old concrete.

A digging spade is good for creating small diameter holes but if the
soil has rocks or concrete then it cannot dislodge these.

I am tempted a digging bar which is really just a small blade to loosen
the soil. The other end is a tamper to flatten and compact the soil at
the bottom of the hole. This will be the neatest method, but lots of
scooping soil.

A digging bar is much more flexible in jobs you can do and will not get
stuck. But it means a lot of being on your knees cleaning out the loose
soil.

If you are really stuck with a mess in the hole a pick axe/mattock this
will clear a large hole through anything and will make a big mess.

I think it comes down to the soil type, fix/repairing old posts or new
holes. Most importantly how many holes you need to dig and how much you
want to spend.

Also I find the post mix bags are just too small for 1 post, unless you
are good/lucky enough to get it just right everytime. Buy bulk bags or
small bags and mix your own. (depends how many holes you need)

I position the post before adding concrete with some large bricks to
wedge the post before.

If time and effort are not a problem and you really want to save costs I
managed to re-fence my garden at about £100 a saving of about £2500.
That after 2 years a post has come loose because the concrete
surrounding the post has broken a now the post can rock. It is true but
I am ok with the fact that the posts will probably only last about 10
years. (lots of cresote poored down the lower part of the post) Also the
posts twisting above ground is a problem.




--
hewhowalksamongus

[Fred]

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 11:57:44 -0700 (PDT), Onetap <one...@talk21.com>

wrote:

>I used a post-hole auger

Are people talking about the petrol driven augers or hand powered
ones? I've not used either but thought the powered one looks fun ;)

[terence...@gmail.com]

I think that's 1/4 Dave ;)

[Brian Gaff]

Has this argument been going on since 2013?
I'd imagine some so called treated wood by now would have rotted away.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Blind user, so no pictures please!
<terence...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a99e4edc-888e-4a71...@googlegroups.com...

[FMurtz]

We work on a third round here

[The Other John]

terence...@gmail.com wrote:

> I think that's 1/4 Dave ;)

It's 1/4 of the post but 1/3 of the fence and 5 years late! :)

--
TOJ.

[Roger Hayter]

But is it a third of the whole post, or third of the part above ground?

--

Roger Hayter

[Robin]

I can well believe it's a third of the whole post. I've seen that
recommended for high wind loads in the UK. And there's lots of other
risks to fences Down Under - eg people clambering over them to get away
from a funnel-web, or a redback, or a common brown, or an inland taipan,
or...
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[Rod Speed]

"Roger Hayter" <ro...@hayter.org> wrote in message
news:1nnx9t0.huxsxgpfagaoN%ro...@hayter.org...

> FMurtz <hag...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> terence...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 at 12:41:48 AM UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 16:36:31 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> One comment I would make - make sure the holes have flat bottoms
>> >>> with good square corners where the base meets the side. Many years
>> >>> ago, I dug a couple of holes for a neighbour, and I did as I said
>> >>> here. The holes he dug were shaped like someone had pushed a football
>> >>> into the soil. A year later in a strong wind, all his concrete lumps
>> >>> rotated in their holes leaving his bit of the fence leaning (none of
>> >>> the posts snapped), and the ones I did were still upright.
>> >>
>> >> Sounds more like they wern't deep enough. Rule of thumb is 1/3 in the
>> >> ground as is above. 6' fence uses 8' posts with 2' in the ground.
>> >>
>> >> Admitedly a square lump is less likely to rotate than a ball (in
>> >> socket).
>> >

>> > I think that's 1/4 Dave ;)
>> >
>> We work on a third round here
>
> But is it a third of the whole post, or third of the part above ground?

Third of the whole post, because that’s what you start
with, a whole post, when you are digging the hole.