Caustic Soda
Martin Robbins
After sanding away at coving I found that rather than being plaster it is
actually wood. I thought it would be nice to get it back to it's original
state. I've removed most of the paint with a hot air gun and then gone over
with Nitromors but there are still some stubborn patches of paint embedded
in what seem to be small gouges in the wood.
I've got some industrial strength caustic soda from a local brewery but I
don't know what quantities to mix, what to apply it with or how long to
leave it. I've tried a bristle brush in a sample solution but it lasted only
a short while !!!
Thanks in anticipation
Martin
Terry D
Please be extremely careful with sodium hydroxide (caustic soda or 'lye' as
our Americans friends like to call the diluted form). Avoid any skin
contact (PVC gloves are a must) and wear goggles. Believe me - it can be
lethal - I cannot stress too much the dangers of this substance. It's
highly alkaline, very toxic and can strip the skin from your fingers - also
avoid any inhalation. If you must use it, add very carefully to COLD water
(it generates heat), stirring constantly and avoid contact with zinc or
aluminium and certainly anything acidic. Is this a solution you've obtained
or the solid form or in pellets? As an ex industrial chemist, I've handled
both, but again I must stress the safety aspects. Please don't mess with it.
My advice is to dispose of it safely (take advice) and think of another
method.
Terry D.
Martin Robbins
heat.
"Terry D" <terry.dut...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:UCUmb.1857$Zr...@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
stuart noble
Terry D wrote in message ...
>Please be extremely careful with sodium hydroxide (caustic soda or 'lye' as
>our Americans friends like to call the diluted form). Avoid any skin
>contact (PVC gloves are a must) and wear goggles. Believe me - it can be
>lethal - I cannot stress too much the dangers of this substance. It's
>highly alkaline, very toxic and can strip the skin from your fingers - also
>avoid any inhalation. If you must use it, add very carefully to COLD water
>(it generates heat), stirring constantly and avoid contact with zinc or
>aluminium and certainly anything acidic. Is this a solution you've
obtained
>or the solid form or in pellets? As an ex industrial chemist, I've handled
>both, but again I must stress the safety aspects. Please don't mess with
it.
>My advice is to dispose of it safely (take advice) and think of another
>method.
heat you describe has subsided. You could wash your hands in it providing
you got it off quickly. The danger is *prolonged* contact with skin. Get it
inside your gloves and you can peel back your finger nails to the quick
after half an hour.
Using it overhead on coving would be very messy but, if you insist, get a
synthetic bristle brush and put some tape round your cuffs.
The stuff you're trying to get rid of from the grain is probably filler,
which even caustic may not remove. The main advantage is that it changes the
look of the wood and IMO improves it if you're looking for an antique
colour.
You can sort of thicken caustic soda with flour. Dissolve the flour in water
first. Still slops everywhere but that's the nature of the beast.
Mary Fisher
"Terry D" <terry.dut...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:UCUmb.1857$Zr...@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
>
as
> our Americans friends like to call the diluted form).
Lye is the old English word for it. It was made by pouring water through
wood ash, still is by those who demonstrate mediaeval soap making, like me!
Mary
Terry D
> It's in a sort of crystal form, a little like salt. I noticed it
> generated heat.
>
supplied it to you in in the first place. Believe me , you don't want to
mess with this stuff.
Terry D.
Grunff
> Please be extremely careful with sodium hydroxide (caustic soda or 'lye' as
> our Americans friends like to call the diluted form). Avoid any skin
> contact (PVC gloves are a must) and wear goggles. Believe me - it can be
> lethal - I cannot stress too much the dangers of this substance. It's
> highly alkaline, very toxic and can strip the skin from your fingers - also
> avoid any inhalation. If you must use it, add very carefully to COLD water
> (it generates heat), stirring constantly and avoid contact with zinc or
> aluminium and certainly anything acidic. Is this a solution you've obtained
> or the solid form or in pellets? As an ex industrial chemist, I've handled
> both, but again I must stress the safety aspects. Please don't mess with it.
> My advice is to dispose of it safely (take advice) and think of another
> method.
My goodness - that's a warning and a half! I feel you're
scaremongering a little.
Sodium hydroxide is a strong alkali, and will strip skin and
damage eyes. But so will boiling water, and we all handle that
every time we make tea. A splash of concentrated sodium
hydroxide on your skin will not do any damage as long as it's
washed off straight away. Just be careful using it and you'll be
fine.
As for the heat generation, pellets dissolve at such a slow rate
that the heat is generated in a very controlled manner. Just
don't dump a whole load of pellets in a small volume of water
all at once.
I commend the brewery for their helpfulness - getting hold of
useful materials is getting increasingly difficult, unless you
work in a lab.
--
Grunff
(who has spent too long in labs working with far nastier compounds)
Andrew Heggie
<mary.b...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Terry D" <terry.dut...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>news:UCUmb.1857$Zr...@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
>>
>> Please be extremely careful with sodium hydroxide (caustic soda or 'lye'
>as
>> our Americans friends like to call the diluted form).
>
>Lye is the old English word for it.
Soda lye maybe
>It was made by pouring water through
>wood ash,
Potash lye
> still is by those who demonstrate mediaeval soap making, like me!
Soda lye makes a harder soap than potash lye, no idea if there is any
difference in their cleansing ability.
AJH
The Natural Philosopher
Oh well. I use it on crystal form, and break all the rules, except the
one that says never get it on your eyes.
In my 6th form chemisty class teh not-very-bright boy of the class
managed to suck a cc or so into his mouth using a pipette.
Washed out with gallons of water.
I regularly get it on my skin. It turns the skin into soap. Wash with
lots of cold water.
It rots jeans very quickly.
I have even poouyred boilig water on it to get a really superheated hot
solution for drain blocakges. Yes, it boils fiercely and splashes
boiling hot concentrated alkali everywhere. No, it hasn't killed me yet.
I'd rather handle that stuff than a router or planer franjkly - come
far nearer serious accidents.
Application of it is tricky. You need a brush that won't be attacked.
Most will be. Any drips will wreck whatever they fall on. sso its nopt
an ideal solution (haha) for paint stripping - you are probably better
of with nitromors and a (electric?) toothbrush. That's not so good on
skin either, and a nono for eyes - wear glasses at least.
Caustic is fearsome stuff, but its not instant death the way a chainsaw
can be. The antidote is gallons of cold water INSTANTLY on anything that
gets splashed, and a very weak acid like vinegar *afterwards* can get
the Ph balanced.
I don't think its right for your application, but I think the respondee
here is being over cautious.
>
> Terry D.
>
>
>
The Natural Philosopher
Keep it for drain clearance. You can buy solid NaOH from most hardware
shops anyway.
> Terry D.
>
>
>
Andy Dingley
<terry.dut...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>My advice is to dispose of it safely (take advice)
Mix it with yeast and hydrochloric acid and you can make Marmite....
(ever wondered why it tasted so salty ?)
I think NaOH is just about the second-safest caustic chemical I have
in the workshop. Everything else is _much_ worse.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
Chris Oates
"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:3F9C4173.4070808@b.c...
New coving sounds simpler
M...@mj.com
wrote:
>
>
>Caustic is fearsome stuff, but its not instant death the way a chainsaw
>can be. The antidote is gallons of cold water INSTANTLY on anything that
> gets splashed, and a very weak acid like vinegar *afterwards* can get
>the Ph balanced.
>
>I don't think its right for your application, but I think the respondee
>here is being over cautious.
>
Just keep a bucket of water nearby if you're at all worried.
MJ
geoff
<grun...@ixxa.com> writes
My sentiments exactly.
I use it from time to time, and as long as you take sensible
precautions, you should be OK
Get it on your skin and it itches, but I've never had chunks of flesh
peeling away yet.
The heat generated by hydration can be quite severe, so add crystals
slowly and take precautions against getting splashed.
Lastly, it is hygroscopic - keep it dry or you could end up with a bag
full of one big lump of sodium hydroxide
--
geoff
Michael Mcneil
news:bngvmc$48g$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk
> I've got some industrial strength caustic soda from a local brewery but I
> don't know what quantities to mix, what to apply it with or how long to
> leave it. I've tried a bristle brush in a sample solution but it lasted only
> a short while !!!
You might try mixing the solution -once you obtain it, into some lime.
The paste should be easier to handle at least. I imagine caustic would
be no kinder to flour than it is to skin and brushes.
Have you tried a mild acid such as vinegar on the filler. If it lime
based that should ruin it shouldn't it? No idea about that though. Nor
what to use to make a paste of it.
Keep us posted
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Andy Dingley
>Lastly, it is hygroscopic - keep it dry or you could end up with a bag
>full of one big lump of sodium hydroxide
It's actually deliquescent. Wait long enough (not long in this
weather) and you'll end up with a puddle of saturated NaOH solution.
A K
an adult and responsible for keeping themselves safe. One thing I
would say is that as a childrens nurse I have seen horrible effects
when a child put a single chrystal in their mouth (the chrstal had
fallen on the floor when dad was mixing it). The child did such
damage to their mouth and wind pipe that they now have a tracheostomy
and will face years of painful surgery just to get some semblance of
normality back.
I agree with Terry, use something else if you can, if not for
goodness sake store it safely and be careful how you handle it.
AK
MarkM
I remember a lab technician who preferred not to wear gloves when
dealing with the nasty chemicals in a semiconductor lab (stuff much
worse than caustic soda). His logic was that with latex gloves, a
pinhole or tear could go un-noticed, and you could have nasty stuff
(like HF) on your hands for a long time before you notice (hands
invariably get sweaty in the gloves anyway, so dampness not a clue),
whereas without gloves any splashes would be noticed and remedied
immediately. Seemed to make sense.....
Grunff
That's ridiculous.
Preventing accidents involving children is not achieved by not
using things, it's achieved by being careful with what the child
has access to.
How many children have you seen with severe burns resulting from
boiling water? I don't see you advising people to avoid using
kettles and saucepans - or perhaps kitchens altogether.
--
Grunff
dave @ stejonda
<a...@imnottellingyou.com> writes
>but everyone here is an an adult
on what data do you base that assumption?
--
dave @ stejonda
A K
> > I agree with Terry, use something else if you can, if not for
> > goodness sake store it safely and be careful how you handle it.
>
> That's ridiculous.
> Preventing accidents involving children is not achieved by not
> using things, it's achieved by being careful with what the child
> has access to.
Perhaps you ought to read things properly and engage your brain
before replying. I didn't say not to use it I said use something
else if you can, and if you do use it be careful. The guy had stored
it carefully, but had not realised that a chrystal had fallen on the
floor. IMHO it doesn't hurt to just to illustrate that accidents can
happen
> How many children have you seen with severe burns resulting from
> boiling water? I don't see you advising people to avoid using
> kettles and saucepans - or perhaps kitchens altogether.
I have seen many children burn with water and my advice would be the
same - BE CAREFUL. There is no alternative to water but there is
alternatives to caustic soda and they should be considered.
AK
Bob Mannix
"Grunff" <grun...@ixxa.com> wrote in message
news:106725512...@lotis.uk.clara.net...
> A K wrote:
>
> > There is no doubt caustic soda is dangerous but everyone here is an
> > an adult and responsible for keeping themselves safe. One thing I
> > would say is that as a childrens nurse I have seen horrible effects
> > when a child put a single chrystal in their mouth (the chrstal had
> > fallen on the floor when dad was mixing it). The child did such
> > damage to their mouth and wind pipe that they now have a tracheostomy
> > and will face years of painful surgery just to get some semblance of
> > normality back.
> >
> > I agree with Terry, use something else if you can, if not for
> > goodness sake store it safely and be careful how you handle it.
>
> That's ridiculous.
>
> Preventing accidents involving children is not achieved by not
> using things, it's achieved by being careful with what the child
> has access to.
Err, that's exactly what AK wrote:
"...being careful with what child has access to" =
a) don't use hazardous materials if you don't have to (as AK said) , the
ultimate form of access control
b) store hazardous materials safely (as AK siad), the next best thing
Not sure what you are disagreeing with! (And, yes, I have used caustic soda,
but I don't store any if I can help it).
--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)
Grunff
> Perhaps you ought to read things properly and engage your brain
> before replying. I didn't say not to use it I said use something
> else if you can, and if you do use it be careful.
Exactly - "use something else if you can". Why? How does that
help children? One good alternative to sodium hydroxide for
paint stripping is methylene chloride based stripper. Is that a
safer alternative to sodium hydroxide? Most would say not.
> I have seen many children burn with water and my advice would be the
> same - BE CAREFUL. There is no alternative to water but there is
> alternatives to caustic soda and they should be considered.
The problem is that your assessment of the danger posed by
sodium hydroxide is based solely on the incident you described,
and not on an understanding of the effects of sodium hydroxide,
the alternatives available and the risks associated with them.
Your statement "use something else if you can" implies that
anything else is preferable. This is far from the truth.
Stripping paint by definition requires a violent process,
whether this is mechanical, thermal or chemical. Whatever you do
will have risks associated with it. Sodium hydroxide is probably
one of the lowest risk options.
--
Grunff
Grunff
> Not sure what you are disagreeing with! (And, yes, I have used caustic soda,
> but I don't store any if I can help it).
I'm disagreeing with "use something else if you can", which
implies that anything is preferable to sodium hydroxide. I
should've snipped the quote a bit.
--
Grunff
A K
> Exactly - "use something else if you can". Why? How does that
> help children? One good alternative to sodium hydroxide for
> paint stripping is methylene chloride based stripper. Is that a
> safer alternative to sodium hydroxide? Most would say not.
Guy's hospital poisons unit (which holds the national database on all
chemicals and poisons) would tell you that there is very little that
is worse than caustic soda. Call them if you don't believe me
Grunff
> Guy's hospital poisons unit (which holds the national database on all
> chemicals and poisons) would tell you that there is very little that
> is worse than caustic soda. Call them if you don't believe me
Riiiight...
I don't need to call them, I have full access to MSDS for about
100,000 compounds.
You have been severely misinformed.
--
Grunff
Bob Mannix
I think you are being a bit cavalier with your inferences. IMHO most
reasonable readers would have inferred that AK's meaning was "use something
less hazardous if you can" and not "anything is preferable to Sodium
Hydroxide", as the thread was about hazard.
There are, occasionally, posters on this ng who just say "don't do this,
it's dangerous" - I understand this can annoy. AK did not do this - it's not
that helpful to react as though (s)he did!
Grunff
> I think you are being a bit cavalier with your inferences. IMHO most
> reasonable readers would have inferred that AK's meaning was "use something
> less hazardous if you can" and not "anything is preferable to Sodium
> Hydroxide", as the thread was about hazard.
Point taken, but if you now read AK's other post, where (s)he says:
"Guy's hospital poisons unit (which holds the national database
on all chemicals and poisons) would tell you that there is very
little that is worse than caustic soda. Call them if you don't
believe me"
You will see that my initial assumption, though premature, was
apparently correct.
--
Grunff
Bob Mannix
At the risk of prolonging the discussion, I would say
a) AK's original post was OK, you misinterpreted it and now everyone is
getting riled and the thread less objective!
b) It may well be that of the things the Guy's poisons unit sees on a day to
day basis caustic soda is as bad as it gets (because of its caustic
properties). Clearly there are worse poisons but they are rather uncommon.
I would *choose* (which I guess is where you are coming from) not to store
caustic soda at home, as I have children around. Personally I would regard
it as being sufficiently hazardous that I would not rely on getting them
used to it and keeping it in a "not to be touched" cupboard. The cautionary
tale merely demonstrates to me that this is a sensible precaution. It's
little comfort, if you have a badly burned child, to know something else
might have been worse! If the situation demanded it, I would certainly use
caustic soda, have no fear! I would, now, take even more care over cleaning
up or disposal (vacuuming rather than brushing etc.). There are also,
undoubtedly, occasional d*ck-brains who read this newsgroup who shouldn't be
let out on their own and, no, the rest of us aren't responsible for them.
Identifying hazards, however, is a perfectly reasonable thing to do (and
even somewhat exaggerating them if necessary) as long as you don't actually
tell people what to do.
N. Thornton
It is normal with stripped wood to have little bits of paint and
filler left in place. I would either let them be, or else carefully
paint over them with a wood matching colour before varnishing etc.
Or if youre really determined, use a powered rotary wire brush, but
it will leave a wood surface that I dont know how to describe: it rips
out the soft pith but leaves the hard fibres, so you get a finely
ridged finish.
Regards, NT
N. Thornton
Regards, NT
AlanG
Firth) wrote:
>Terry D <terry.dut...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> >
>> My advice is to take it back to the brewery, who really shouldn't have
>> supplied it to you in in the first place. Believe me , you don't want to
>> mess with this stuff.
>
>Ghod above, what are you? Mr Worry? You can buy caustic soda pellets at
>most ironmongers and it's pretty de-rigeur for farm use.
I get mine from the local chemist. 'Battles Caustic Soda' . £1.65 for
500gms. Cleans and sterilises drains and toilets. Also removes stains
from teapots and degreases metal prior to painting.
> It's complete
>bollocks to state that the brewery shouldn't have sold it to him and
>it's up to the individual to work safely with chemicals.
Indeed
>
>It's also complete bollocks to say "you don't want to mess with this
>stuff" what you want to do is to learn how to work safely with this
>stuff.
Indeed
--
Alan G
"The corporate life [of society] must be
subservient to the lives of the parts instead
of the lives of the parts being subservient to
the corporate life."
(Herbert Spencer)
Andy Dingley
<a...@imnottellingyou.com> wrote:
>Guy's hospital poisons unit (which holds the national database on all
>chemicals and poisons)
Moved to Birmigham now, hasn't it ?
>would tell you
Sadly they won't, Toxbase is NHS or subscription only.
>that there is very little that is worse than caustic soda.
In that case they're either stating "caustic soda causes most of our
serious injuries" or they've seriously skewed their stats by incidence
(caustic soda is after all extremely common).
NaOH is far from the most toxic, or even the most corrosive chemical
that you can buy "over the counter" on a "typical high street". Look
at common industrial chemicals and there are much, much worse.
Martin Robbins
!!! I will take on board the useful advice given here and give it a try as I
believe that, armed with knowledge and a little common sense, anything is
achievable.
Thanks to those who gave advice. Thanks for nothing to the rest of you.
"Martin Robbins" <mar...@robbinm.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bngvmc$48g$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
The Natural Philosopher
Indeed, if used by an adult who isn't aware that the correct and
immediate abtidote is gallons of water immediately, around children.
Get it into your tum tum and the hydrochloric acid should fix it. Its
what happens in the way down that is scary.
Parents who haven't a clue about basic first aid and chemistry -
probably the norm these days since advanced school chemistry probably
consists of 'how to make bread using yeast and sugar' - shouldn't be
usingf anything more complicated than a mobile phone.
>
The Natural Philosopher
> Martin Robbins <mar...@robbinm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>Does anyone know how to mix and use caustic soda ?
>>
>
> Always add the dry pellets to water,
Unless you are prepared for an exciting reaction that generates very
concentrated hot alkali. And a lot of presure. Ideal for poipe clearance.
> never the other way around.
Nah., Its biring that way round.
> Stir
> continuously mix in a stainless steel or plastic container and use a
> wooden spoon or a stainless one.
Glass is OK, unless it cracks. Stir with anything, but be aware what you
start stirring with may not last the course, including your finger. :-)
>
> Do not ever mix caustic + aluminium or leave a caustic soda solution in
> a plastic bottle for storage. Even plastic mixing vessels will,
> eventually, crumble into dust, so stainless is best.
Indeed. Once you hace cleaned your plastic drain, flush properly with a
little vinegar. I used to cklean my horrid tea stained plastic sink with
caustic crsytals and boiling water poured on. Got rid if the teastains,
and quite a few pairs of jeans, Plastic did degrade, but it was on its
last legs anyway.
>
> Other than that, read the label, wear gloves and eye protection, don't
> be a prat.
>
>
Definietlty watch out for eyes. Disagree about gloves: If it gets inside
you will be seriously burnt before you can get the buggers off, but a
splash on the hand is no worse if rapidly washed than a splash of hot
water - and not NEARLY as bad as a splash of hot fat.
The Natural Philosopher
> A K <a...@imnottellingyou.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Guy's hospital poisons unit (which holds the national database on all
>>chemicals and poisons) would tell you that there is very little that
>>is worse than caustic soda.
>>
>
> The fuck they would.
>
> Ask them about Ricin.
Or indeed Amanita phalloides ior Amanita Virosa.
You get sick, you get better.
Then you die.
>
>
geoff
<din...@codesmiths.com> writes
>On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 23:16:45 +0000, geoff <ra...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>Lastly, it is hygroscopic - keep it dry or you could end up with a bag
>>full of one big lump of sodium hydroxide
>
>It's actually deliquescent. Wait long enough (not long in this
>weather) and you'll end up with a puddle of saturated NaOH solution.
Ok, corrected,
What's the difference ?
--
geoff
geoff
<m...@privacy.com> writes
>On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:13:55 +0000, usen...@malloc.co.uk (Steve
>Firth) wrote:
>
>>Terry D <terry.dut...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>> >
>>> My advice is to take it back to the brewery, who really shouldn't have
>>> supplied it to you in in the first place. Believe me , you don't want to
>>> mess with this stuff.
>>
>>Ghod above, what are you? Mr Worry? You can buy caustic soda pellets at
>>most ironmongers and it's pretty de-rigeur for farm use.
>
>I get mine from the local chemist. 'Battles Caustic Soda' . £1.65 for
>500gms. Cleans and sterilises drains and toilets. Also removes stains
>from teapots and degreases metal prior to painting.
>
I buy 20 kg bags from an electroplaters for £8, using it before it
solidifies is a bit of a problem
--
geoff
geoff
<usen...@malloc.co.uk> writes
>Martin Robbins <mar...@robbinm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know how to mix and use caustic soda ?
>
>continuously mix in a stainless steel or plastic container and use a
>wooden spoon or a stainless one.
>
>a plastic bottle for storage. Even plastic mixing vessels will,
>eventually, crumble into dust, so stainless is best.
>
>be a prat.
>
containers. Don't store it in liquid form unless it is in a securely
closed container
--
geoff
geoff
writes
--
geoff
stuart noble
Steve Firth wrote in message <1g3hnij.3oj5t91o2kmnhN%%steve%>
>Even plastic mixing vessels will,
>eventually, crumble into dust, so stainless is best.
or varnishes.
stuart noble
Michael Mcneil wrote in message
>You might try mixing the solution -once you obtain it, into some lime.
>The paste should be easier to handle at least. I imagine caustic would
>be no kinder to flour than it is to skin and brushes.
AFAIK starch is the only thing that gels caustic soda. It's how they used to
make alkaline paint strippers.
Andy Dingley
>What's the difference ?
Hygroscopic materials absorb water from the air.
Deliquescent materials absorb so much that they'll dissolve in it.
Relatively few hygroscopic materials do this.
Conventionally, deliquescent materials aren't described as hygroscopic
(i.e. using the term hygroscopic implies that it isn't actually
deliquescent)
Grimly Curmudgeon
>I buy 20 kg bags from an electroplaters for £8, using it before it
>solidifies is a bit of a problem
I've been using quite a lot of it recently in the biodiesel process -
I've found storing it in a plastic barrel with airtight lid and clamp
helps a lot in keeping the moisture at bay.
--
Dave
Andy Dingley
<stuart'noble...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Doesn't affect plastic at all, which is why it doesn't strip modern paints
>or varnishes.
It'll saponify oils though, so it may have an effect on partially
cured long-oil varnishes. With waxed or oiled finishes, almost
anything could happen.
I use it a lot for cleaning old furniture (gelled with methyl
cellulose, and worked with gloved hands), because it's good at
clearing handling grease, but doesn't affect most finishes.
geoff
<din...@codesmiths.com> writes
>On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:42:29 +0000, geoff <ra...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>What's the difference ?
>
>Hygroscopic materials absorb water from the air.
>
>Deliquescent materials absorb so much that they'll dissolve in it.
>Relatively few hygroscopic materials do this.
>
>Conventionally, deliquescent materials aren't described as hygroscopic
>(i.e. using the term hygroscopic implies that it isn't actually
>deliquescent)
>
font of knowledge with dictionary thrown in ...
cheers
--
geoff
The Natural Philosopher
Fair point. Think of it as evolution in action.
The Natural Philosopher
Plastic covers a wide range of materials##
It certainlty degrades the sorts of plastic bristled bog/dish brushes
you buy.
>
>
PoP
>Isn't uk-diy marvellous
>
>font of knowledge with dictionary thrown in ...
You are taking the mickey. I claim my five pounds. ;)
PoP
PoP
>One more point, NaOH solution is very good at "creeping" out of
>containers. Don't store it in liquid form unless it is in a securely
>closed container
Tell me about it. I bought a couple of bottles of Screwfix drain
cleaning solution. Put them on my shelf in the garage until I needed
them. Fortunately a couple of weeks later I had a need to go routing
thru the shelf contents - and found that this drain cleaner was
seeping out of the sealed plastic bottles.
Immediately cleaned our drains so as to get rid of it, although the
drains didn't need cleaning.
PoP
R W
> On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:42:29 +0000, geoff <ra...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> What's the difference ?
>
> Hygroscopic materials absorb water from the air.
>
> Deliquescent materials absorb so much that they'll dissolve in it.
> Relatively few hygroscopic materials do this.
>
> Conventionally, deliquescent materials aren't described as hygroscopic
> (i.e. using the term hygroscopic implies that it isn't actually
> deliquescent)
I have some of that Oxygen based cleaning powder. Vanish Oxy Action is
one brand, but not the brand I have.
On both tubs they say you shouldn't store it once you mix with water, as
it will continue to produce oxygen.
Ok I ask, why not? What's wrong with it continuing to produce oxygen?!
dave @ stejonda
writes
>Steve Firth wrote:
>> A K <a...@imnottellingyou.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Guy's hospital poisons unit (which holds the national database on all
>>>chemicals and poisons) would tell you that there is very little that
>>>is worse than caustic soda.
>>>
>
>Or indeed Amanita phalloides ior Amanita Virosa.
>
>You get sick, you get better.
>
>Then you die.
>
--
dave @ stejonda
Andy Dingley
wrote:
>Ok I ask, why not? What's wrong with it continuing to produce oxygen?!
It'll burst a sealed container.
If the action relies on it producing oxygen, then having this useful
reaction go on in storage will mean that it'll have run out of steam
by the time you come to use it.
Gordon Henderson
Steve Firth <usen...@malloc.co.uk> wrote:
>Do not ever mix caustic + aluminium or leave a caustic soda solution in
>a plastic bottle for storage. Even plastic mixing vessels will,
>eventually, crumble into dust, so stainless is best.
Interstingly enough, in an attempt to clear a blocked drain a while back,
I bought a plastic tub of caustic mixed with flakes of aluminium foil
out of my local hardware shoppe...
It didn't work and I ended up hiring a long flexable turny thing to grind
out several years worth of massage oils and a dead frog from the pipe...
Gordon
Peter Ashby
usen...@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth) wrote:
>
> It's also complete bollocks to say "you don't want to mess with this
> stuff" what you want to do is to learn how to work safely with this
> stuff.
>
Indeed, I have a bottle of 4 Molar NaOH on hand constantly at work, when
using it I don a lab coat (to protect my clothes) and gloves for my
hands. If I was using it in coving in situ I would add safety glasses
and possibly a face mask and would thicken it, but that has already been
dealt with.
As an undergrad I mouth pippetted a large dollop of 1M into my mouth and
survived fine (the bulbs came out after the incident). I've had worse
burns from eating supermarket fresh pineapple.
Peter
--
Peter Ashby
School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland
To assume that I speak for the University of Dundee is to be deluded.
Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.
Peter Ashby
Andy Dingley <din...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
>
> NaOH is far from the most toxic, or even the most corrosive chemical
> that you can buy "over the counter" on a "typical high street". Look
> at common industrial chemicals and there are much, much worse.
Indeed, I once dripped about 20microlitres of liquid buffered phenol on
my leg (I was wearing shorts and sitting down). Boy did that hurt, far
nastier than caustic.
Andy Dingley
over a stove, is it safer to use the bluing salts alone, or to make a
eutectic mixture with caustic soda and lower the melting point ?
One is a large pan full of a very hot oxidiser (don't stir it with a
stick !), the other is a pan full of less hot, but more corrosive,
salt.
Gun-bluing steel BTW, not mixing it with sugar.
Grunff
> When melting (not dissolving) a fish-kettle full of potassium nitrate
> over a stove, is it safer to use the bluing salts alone, or to make a
> eutectic mixture with caustic soda and lower the melting point ?
You're one brave guy! I'd personally leave it neat - melting
point is what, 300C ish? Not too bad.
If I'm not wrong, the boiling point is going to be not a million
miles off the melting point, so you're gonna have to be careful
that it doesn't start boiling before it's all melted.
> Gun-bluing steel BTW, not mixing it with sugar.
Is that how it's done - I've often wondered, but never googled.
--
Grunff
Mary Fisher
>
> I've seen people make up 0.1N NaOH solutions in laboratories and leave
> them in polyethylene and polypropylene bottles. After a month or so the
> bottles turn to something that looks like, and has the sructural
> properties of, candlewax.
What do you mean by candlewax?
Mary
geoff
<E--1...@anyoldtripe.co.uk> writes
reply ready 2 minutes after posting the question.
--
geoff
Suz
>
> Hygroscopic materials absorb water from the air.
>
> Deliquescent materials absorb so much that they'll dissolve in it.
> Relatively few hygroscopic materials do this.
I just bought some toffee apples covered deliquescent toffee from
Sainsbury's. Less than 24 hrs later it has absorbed so much water from the
air/apples that it has dissolved in it. Grrrr...
Suz
> little vinegar. I used to cklean my horrid tea stained plastic sink with
> caustic crsytals and boiling water poured on. Got rid if the teastains,
> and quite a few pairs of jeans, Plastic did degrade, but it was on its
> last legs anyway.
Would that be the same as stuff my mum used years (decades) ago? It was in
a crappy wobbly cardboard box, half red and half white and said Soda
Crystals on the outside? We weren't allowed to touch it, she had a special
spoon reserved for digging bits out of it. She put a couple of spoonfuls in
her mop bucket to take really stubborn stains off the very ancient kitchen
tiles. It always brought them up like new.
Suz
Andy Dingley
<suzanne...@dontsendmail.com> wrote:
>Would that be the same as stuff my mum used years (decades) ago? It was in
>a crappy wobbly cardboard box,
No, that would have been washing soda - sodium carbonate.
Sodium bicarbonate is baking soda. Sodium hydroxide is caustic soda.
Sodium carbonate is hygroscopic, not deliquescent (like caustic). so
you can store it in a cardboard box and it will go crappy and wobbly.
Store caustic like that and you'll have a corrosive puddle before
long. It's also a salt commonly found in dry "salt lakes". The ancient
Egyptians knew it as "natron" and because it absorbs water, they
packed dead bodies in it to dry them out for mummification.
I use washing soda for shifting grease (it saponifies fats by turning
them into a crude soap), and I can do this in the kitchen sink while
my hands are still in there. I lose some oil from my skin, but a
little hand cream deals with that. I also use it to make tapwater
conductive in my electrolytic derusting tank (DAGS)
stuart noble
Steve Firth wrote in message <1g3jafd.1xxykhz1t947daN%%steve%
>Sorry, you're wrong. It will turn polyethylene in particular into a
>brittle dust. Modern paints tend to be alkyd resins (which IIRC sodium
>hydroxide does remove) or acrylic which is, I think, resistant to
>alkali.
>
>It's more like NaOH will attack most plastics and lead to them
>crumbling, but not all. PVC is more resistant than polyethylene but
>eventually fails because the NaOH removes the plasticiser from PVC
>leaving it as a brittle powder.
>
>I've seen people make up 0.1N NaOH solutions in laboratories and leave
>them in polyethylene and polypropylene bottles. After a month or so the
>bottles turn to something that looks like, and has the sructural
>properties of, candlewax.
are packaged in plastic tubs, which are obviously resistant because, once
opened, they attract moisture, and the crystals would then be attacking the
container big time. Also, dilute potassium hydroxide is sold in bog standard
5L plastic jerry cans. I've had one on the shelf for at least 10 years with
absolutely no degradation. Come to think of it I've stored 10% caustic in
plastic lemonade bottles before now. I suppose it's possible the initial
heat reaction might melt low grade plastic but I have never seen the
reactions you describe. How the devil would the stuff be distributed?
stuart noble
>> It certainlty degrades the sorts of plastic bristled bog/dish brushes
>> you buy.
>them susceptible to NaOH.
It's never happened to me and I used to use the stuff all day long. It's
possible the initial heat generated might be enough to melt nylon. Certainly
synthetic bristle paint brushes are not affected
>
Andy Dingley
<stuart'noble...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Hmm. Well I can only go by my own observations which are that the crystals
>are packaged in plastic tubs, which are obviously resistant because,
Those are _dry_ pellets in the tub, hence unreactive. Get some
moisture in there and it's a whole different story.
I happened to notice that my last plastic bottle of caustic soda had
an aluminium foil "freshness seal" under the cap. That's going to last
seconds, if it ever got damp inside.
Mary Fisher
>
> > What do you mean by candlewax?
>
> Paraffin wax.
If paraffin was meant it should have been stated.
Mary
Terry D
> Thanks for the advice. I never imagined it could cause so much
> controversy !!! I will take on board the useful advice given here and
> give it a try as I believe that, armed with knowledge and a little
> common sense, anything is achievable.
>
> Thanks to those who gave advice. Thanks for nothing to the rest of
> you.
>
>
>
> "Martin Robbins" <mar...@robbinm.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:bngvmc$48g$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
>> Does anyone know how to mix and use caustic soda ?
>>
>> After sanding away at coving I found that rather than being plaster
>> it is actually wood. I thought it would be nice to get it back to
>> it's original state. I've removed most of the paint with a hot air
>> gun and then gone over with Nitromors but there are still some
>> stubborn patches of paint embedded in what seem to be small gouges
>> in the wood.
>>
>> I've got some industrial strength caustic soda from a local brewery
>> but I don't know what quantities to mix, what to apply it with or
>> how long to leave it. I've tried a bristle brush in a sample
>> solution but it lasted only a short while !!!
>>
>>
>> Thanks in anticipation
>>
>>
>> Martin
On the local news this evening - a tanker carrying caustic soda has crashed
on the A1 near Wetherby. The road is now closed and will have to be
resurfaced. Does this answer some of the previous trivial messages
underestimating dangers of this material?
Terry D.
geoff
<terry.dut...@ntlworld.com> writes
>Martin Robbins wrote:
>
>On the local news this evening - a tanker carrying caustic soda has crashed
>on the A1 near Wetherby. The road is now closed and will have to be
>resurfaced. Does this answer some of the previous trivial messages
>underestimating dangers of this material?
>
No
so, it reacts with tar ...
--
geoff
The Natural Philosopher
No.
A tanker load of just about anything would do the same.
Petrol catchhingv fire
Liquid nitrogen cracking the road.
Even milk turning into cgeese would not be good news.
Learn some chemistry or bugger off.
> Terry D.
>
>
>
The Natural Philosopher
As indeed does freezing water in the cracks.
DANGER ICE LOLLIES LETHAL SAYS MARTIN ROBBINS ECO WARRIOR EXTRORDINAIRE.
Mary Fisher
crashed
> on the A1 near Wetherby. The road is now closed and will have to be
> resurfaced. Does this answer some of the previous trivial messages
> underestimating dangers of this material?
>
> Terry D.
You live near Wetherby?
Mary
Leeds
>
>
Grimly Curmudgeon
<terry.dut...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>On the local news this evening - a tanker carrying caustic soda has crashed
>on the A1 near Wetherby.
That was careless.
> The road is now closed and will have to be
>resurfaced. Does this answer some of the previous trivial messages
>underestimating dangers of this material?
<shrug>
Would've resulted in the closure/resurfacing of the carriageway if 40
tonnes of heating fuel had spilt instead.
--
Dave
Suz
"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:3FA03234.1040404@b.c...
er.. that'll be TERRY D ECO WARRIOR EXTRODINAIRE I think? No?
Owain
| Come to think of it I've stored 10% caustic in
| plastic lemonade bottles before now.
Regardless of the properties of the plastic, storing Nasty Chemicals in
lemonade bottles is irresponsible. Somebody sometime is going to make a
mistake.
Although you might think they deserve it, you are laying yourself wide open
to a hefty claim if any scrote breaks into your garden shed / chemical
bunker and takes a quick swig of suspiciously cloudy Fizzy Pineapple.
Owain
Grunff
> "stuart noble" wrote
> | Come to think of it I've stored 10% caustic in
> | plastic lemonade bottles before now.
>
> Regardless of the properties of the plastic, storing Nasty Chemicals in
> lemonade bottles is irresponsible. Somebody sometime is going to make a
> mistake.
And this is where natural selection comes into play. If someone
really can't tell the difference between a bottle of drinkable
lemonade and a bottle of sodium hydroxide, probably kept in the
garage or shed, they really are best out of the genepool.
Irresponsible indeed!
> Although you might think they deserve it, you are laying yourself wide open
> to a hefty claim if any scrote breaks into your garden shed / chemical
> bunker and takes a quick swig of suspiciously cloudy Fizzy Pineapple.
Like hell you are.
--
Grunff
stuart noble
Andy Dingley wrote in message
>Those are _dry_ pellets in the tub, hence unreactive. Get some
>moisture in there and it's a whole different story.
outdoors because of moisture. The sacks do not degrade in any way.
I would like someone to tell me how this stuff could be distributed and
stored if this were not the case.
Andy Dingley
<stuart'noble...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>25kg sacks are supplied in polythene
I've never seen caustic soda in polythene sacks. PVC or
polypropylene, yes, but never polythene. Polythene is very permeable
to water.
Andy Dingley
<terry.dut...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>On the local news this evening - a tanker carrying caustic soda has crashed
>on the A1 near Wetherby.
Could be worse
jerrybuilt
> > > What do you mean by candlewax?
> >
> > Paraffin wax.
>
> If paraffin was meant it should have been stated.
Rubbish. Paraffin wax makes up the vast majority of candles,
and it's what most people expect.
be your...@thai.com!
Shop all amazing products and get our special offers!
jerrybuilt
> > On the local news this evening - a tanker carrying caustic
> > now closed and will have to be resurfaced. Does this
> > answer some of the previous trivial messages
> > underestimating dangers of this material?
> >
>
> You live near Wetherby?
Take it to e-mail.
Learn how to quote properly.
jerrybuilt
> Owain wrote:
> > "stuart noble" wrote
> > | Come to think of it I've stored 10% caustic in
> > | plastic lemonade bottles before now.
>
> > Regardless of the properties of the plastic, storing Nasty
> > Chemicals in lemonade bottles is irresponsible. Somebody
> > sometime is going to make a mistake.
>
> And this is where natural selection comes into play. If someone
> really can't tell the difference between a bottle of drinkable
> lemonade and a bottle of sodium hydroxide, probably kept in the
> garage or shed, they really are best out of the genepool.
>
> Irresponsible indeed!
It is irresponsible. It is good advice not to store such things like
that. Young children, for instance, won't know what caustic soda,
garden chemicals etc. are, but may well know what a lemonade
bottle looks like, and be able to undo the top. They will, of
course, realise that something is wrong after a good swig.
John Armstrong
> Polythene is very permeable
> to water.
Will probably regret asking this, but why is it used as a dpc/dpm material
then?
Andy Dingley
Because it's cheap, and it's reasonably impermeable. Buildings get
rained on anyway - there's no point in trying to keep them
_absolutely_ dry. And lots of those membranes are PVC anyway, if
you're expecting one side to be exposed to saturation.
Look inside a bag of crisps - aluminium metallisation. Look at a
telephone cable - aluminium foil wrapper inside.
The Natural Philosopher
> Mary Fisher wrote (but ballsed up the attributions):
>
>> > > What do you mean by candlewax?
>> >
>> > Paraffin wax.
>> If paraffin was meant it should have been stated.
>
>
> Rubbish. Paraffin wax makes up the vast majority of candles,
> and it's what most people expect.
Indeed.
If the original criticism is serious the poster should have been
educated proper, So there!
We can all play the 'should' game.
The Natural Philosopher
> On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:05:37 GMT, "jerrybuilt"
> <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>
> Caustic soda also causes huge explosions in ng responses too :-) Intrestin'
> thread though.
> So say I buy some of this stuff and use it to clean the drains. how would I get
> rid of the unused amount? Tip it all down the drain?
Yes.
Then add lots of water.
> The message seems to be not
> to try and store this stuff in the first place.
>
Its fine as it comes from the shop. In an airtigfht plastic container
with a childproof lid and lots of orange poison and hazard signs on it.
As a crystal.
>
geoff
<din...@codesmiths.com> writes
>On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:24:04 -0000, "stuart noble"
><stuart'noble...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>25kg sacks are supplied in polythene
>
>I've never seen caustic soda in polythene sacks. PVC or
>polypropylene, yes, but never polythene. Polythene is very permeable
>to water.
Want a photo ?
--
geoff
geoff
<Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes
Do you think you could separate this from your posting, like putting it
in your sig or something ?
>be your...@thai.com!
>Shop all amazing products and get our special offers!
>
>
>
>
>
--
geoff
stuart noble
dave wrote in message ...
>On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:05:37 GMT, "jerrybuilt"
><Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>
>Caustic soda also causes huge explosions in ng responses too :-) Intrestin'
>thread though.
>So say I buy some of this stuff and use it to clean the drains. how would I
get
>rid of the unused amount?
stuart noble
Andy Dingley wrote in message ...
> Polythene is very permeable
> to water.
>and it's reasonably impermeable.
Well, quite.
John Armstrong
Perhaps with a high power UV light to make it glow?
Andy Dingley
My walls are rather less affected by a little damp than a sackful of
caustic.
Suz
Intrestin'
> >>thread though.
> >>So say I buy some of this stuff and use it to clean the drains. how
would I
> > get
> >>rid of the unused amount?
> > Put it in a plastic bag and hang it in a child's bedroom :-)
>
> Perhaps with a high power UV light to make it glow?
And some sharp knives so they can beat the lot like a pinata.
AlanG
>On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:05:37 GMT, "jerrybuilt"
><Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>
>Caustic soda also causes huge explosions in ng responses too :-) Intrestin'
>thread though.
>So say I buy some of this stuff and use it to clean the drains. how would I get
>rid of the unused amount? Tip it all down the drain? The message seems to be not
>to try and store this stuff in the first place.
Most of the talk has been on industrial quantities. You will not be
needing that.
If you buy it at a chemists or ironmongers you'll get it in a kilo or
half kilo container in which it can be stored indefinitely. Use what
you need according to the instructions and keep the rest sealed up
safely away from children. The stuff can be dangerous but no more so
than some oven cleaners.
--
Alan G
"The corporate life [of society] must be
subservient to the lives of the parts instead
of the lives of the parts being subservient to
the corporate life."
(Herbert Spencer)
Mark Evans
> On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:05:48 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
> <mary.b...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>"Terry D" <terry.dut...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>>news:UCUmb.1857$Zr...@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
>>>
>>> Please be extremely careful with sodium hydroxide (caustic soda or 'lye'
>>as
>>> our Americans friends like to call the diluted form).
>>
>>Lye is the old English word for it.
> Soda lye maybe
>>It was made by pouring water through
>>wood ash,
> Potash lye
>> still is by those who demonstrate mediaeval soap making, like me!
> Soda lye makes a harder soap than potash lye, no idea if there is any
> difference in their cleansing ability.
I can't see why it should, since the active part of the soap is
the organic acid ion. Unless using the different hydroxides leaves
differing amounts of the original ester in the resulting soap.
Mark Evans
> As for the heat generation, pellets dissolve at such a slow rate
> that the heat is generated in a very controlled manner. Just
> don't dump a whole load of pellets in a small volume of water
> all at once.
Also you add the solid hydroxide to water, slowly. Doing it the
other way around means you are likely to wind up with a combination
of boiling saturated solution and steam.
Mark Evans
> "Grunff" <grun...@ixxa.com> wrote in message
> news:106725681...@lotis.uk.clara.net...
>> Exactly - "use something else if you can". Why? How does that
>> help children? One good alternative to sodium hydroxide for
>> paint stripping is methylene chloride based stripper. Is that a
>> safer alternative to sodium hydroxide? Most would say not.
> Guy's hospital poisons unit (which holds the national database on all
> chemicals and poisons) would tell you that there is very little that
> is worse than caustic soda. Call them if you don't believe me
Whilst alkali metal hydroxides are not nice chemicals they hardly
compare with various alkaloids which can have lethal doses measured
in 10's on mg.
Mark Evans
> I have some of that Oxygen based cleaning powder. Vanish Oxy Action is
> one brand, but not the brand I have.
> On both tubs they say you shouldn't store it once you mix with water, as
> it will continue to produce oxygen.
> Ok I ask, why not? What's wrong with it continuing to produce oxygen?!
What it's probably producing is single oxygen atoms, which
are highly reactive. What you have is an unstable compound
which releases oxygen. Similar to hydrogen peroxide and sodium
hypochlorite.