More eco-bollox ...

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Arfa Daily

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Feb 26, 2009, 4:28:21 AM2/26/09
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My wife is just buying another cafe nearby. It's getting towards the end of
the process, so all of the paperwork is starting to slop around the system
between the solicitors. Yesterday, we received a copy of a bloody "Energy
Report" for the building. I have never read such a waste-of-time crap in all
my life ! Some of the recommendations about replacing decorative light
fittings and so on with types to take a CFL are little short of ludicrous.
They even recommend that we dismantle any flourescent lights, and replace
the ballasts with more efficient 'electronic' types. Yeah, right. Like
anyone is ever going to do that ...

Each of their silly points has an 'impact' rating attached to it. The final
conclusion is that the building falls exactly into the band that you would
expect it to for one of that type and age. Well now, there's a surprise ...

How much has it cost the poor sods who are selling us the business, to have
these 'consultants' along to produce this report ? I dread to think. I
wonder how many politicians are on the boards of these companies, and are
then working it back the other way as 'advisors' to the government to get
all this nanny legislation nonsense on the statute book ? I really hate what
this country is becoming.

Arfa


bill...@hotmail.com

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Feb 26, 2009, 5:57:06 AM2/26/09
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On 26 Feb, 09:28, "Arfa Daily" <arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[...]

> I really hate what
> this country is becoming.
>
> Arfa

The door's over there.

Arfa Daily

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Feb 26, 2009, 6:03:13 AM2/26/09
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<bill...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2997cca4-7297-4ba1...@q9g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...

Off you go then ...

Arfa


tony sayer

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Feb 26, 2009, 6:19:21 AM2/26/09
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In article <Vgtpl.158$gj...@newsfe30.ams2>, Arfa Daily
<arfa....@ntlworld.com> scribeth thus

It keeps them in a job. There're not much use for anything else so what
do you do put 'em on the dole or get them to do stupid jobs like this
when if the govermint had any idea they'd be subsidising real things
like insulation to the hilt ... which they aren't!....
--
Tony Sayer



cynic

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Feb 26, 2009, 7:18:23 AM2/26/09
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On 26 Feb, 09:28, "Arfa Daily" <arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

Send a copy of your post to all the newspapers you can think of. One
or two might pick up on it and run a suitably embarrassing article for
the government to read

Doctor Drivel

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Feb 26, 2009, 7:59:23 AM2/26/09
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"cynic" <icel...@talktalk.net> wrote in message
news:7b39ca91-61e8-478d...@v31g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

The energy report is there for a reason. It is best he stops reading the
Tory brainwashing Daily Mail and learn some common sense. It is clear the
Daily Mail has affected his brain. He should use this appalling paper to
stuff in the holes in the building to stop air leaks.

Grimly Curmudgeon

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Feb 26, 2009, 8:26:00 AM2/26/09
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We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk>
saying something like:

>It keeps them in a job. There're not much use for anything else so what
>do you do put 'em on the dole or get them to do stupid jobs like this

<a big DING! for that man>

The real unemployment figures would be far higher if all those people in
jobs like that were included. The infamous Jobs Creation Schemes of the
70s never went away, just got re-designated and came from a different
direction.

The Natural Philosopher

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Feb 26, 2009, 8:44:36 AM2/26/09
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tony sayer wrote:
> In article <Vgtpl.158$gj...@newsfe30.ams2>, Arfa Daily
> <arfa....@ntlworld.com> scribeth thus

>> How much has it cost the poor sods who are selling us the business, to have

>> these 'consultants' along to produce this report ? I dread to think. I
>> wonder how many politicians are on the boards of these companies, and are
>> then working it back the other way as 'advisors' to the government to get
>> all this nanny legislation nonsense on the statute book ? I really hate what
>> this country is becoming.
>>
>> Arfa
>>
>>
>
> It keeps them in a job. There're not much use for anything else so what
> do you do put 'em on the dole or get them to do stupid jobs like this
> when if the govermint had any idea they'd be subsidising real things
> like insulation to the hilt ... which they aren't!....

Yup.

Trouble is 'pay a man to do a make believe job and you feed him till the
govmint goes bust: educate a man to do something productive, and you
will be out of a job'

What a dilemma!

Arfa Daily

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Feb 26, 2009, 8:57:18 AM2/26/09
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"Doctor Drivel" <kill...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:go63nk$hhf$1...@news.motzarella.org...

What, and the bunch of clowns that are in power at the moment are doing a
good job are they ? Reminds me of the shit we were in last time we let them
stay in for too long ... I suggest that you get back to your Daily Mirror.
Even they can't find it in their hearts to support them any more. Drivel by
nic, drivel by mouth ...

Arfa


Andy Dingley

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Feb 26, 2009, 1:30:51 PM2/26/09
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On 26 Feb, 09:28, "Arfa Daily" <arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> we received a copy of a bloody "Energy
> Report" for the building. I have never read such a waste-of-time crap in all
> my life !

We had one of those. I remember three paras:

* Lightbulbs are all incandescents.

* Did you know you could fit photovoltaic panels?

* It's Victorian and untouched, so score zilch on everything.


I don't mind the first two. There are ignorant people around who need
to have this pointed out to them. What I dislike is that there's no
expansion on these two observations. Yes, replace incandescents with
CFLs (did it the first night). It's cheap and it's a good saving.
However PV panels are an expensive con that won't payback in any
finite time, so avoid them. Yet from this report itself, there is
_nothing_ to distinguish the two, or their relative viability.

The third point is important. But I could have told you that much from
seeing a photo of the outside.

This report is a failure because it's merely a report, not a
recommendation. It tells you what you have, not what to do next. It
also does so in an amazingly patronising manner. So it's a document
that's only of use to those who already know enough to know what to do
next, and it talks down to these people. One group are baffled, the
other are patronised.

Rednadnerb

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Feb 26, 2009, 2:48:27 PM2/26/09
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I went into an Estate Agents today to look at the Home Information
Pack for a flat that I am thinking of buying, the pack included an
energy performance certificate which I found very interesting and it
gave me the answer to some questions that the estate agent couldn't
help me with.

Ignoring the common sense stuff about lightbulbs, it told me that the
heating system is communal and very efficient and the hot water is
from an electric immersion heater and there's not much I can do to
improve on that.
Without that information I might well have ripped it all out and put
in a combi boiler, costing loads and saving not much.

It's not all bad.

Frank Erskine

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Feb 26, 2009, 3:02:13 PM2/26/09
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On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 11:48:27 -0800 (PST), Rednadnerb
<bhar...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

>I went into an Estate Agents today to look at the Home Information
>Pack for a flat that I am thinking of buying, the pack included an
>energy performance certificate which I found very interesting and it
>gave me the answer to some questions that the estate agent couldn't
>help me with.

Do you _always_ believe what's written on certificates?

--
Frank Erskine

Rednadnerb

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Feb 26, 2009, 4:14:49 PM2/26/09
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They're not selling anything. Why would the information be false? When
it comes to energy efficiency I have to rely on someone else's
calculations, getting the necessary information and doing the
calculations myself is not something I would be able to do.

It also told me that replacing the the single glazing with energy
efficient coated double glazed units will save me about thirty odd
quid a year, another expensive mistake avoided!

The Natural Philosopher

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Feb 26, 2009, 6:38:50 PM2/26/09
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Rednadnerb wrote:
> I went into an Estate Agents today to look at the Home Information
> Pack for a flat that I am thinking of buying, the pack included an
> energy performance certificate which I found very interesting and it
> gave me the answer to some questions that the estate agent couldn't
> help me with.
>
> Ignoring the common sense stuff about lightbulbs,

What is common sense about it? CFLS are just ecobollox in themselves by
and large.


When I bought my house, they removed all the lightbulbs from it anyway..

Lobster

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Feb 27, 2009, 2:42:20 AM2/27/09
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Rednadnerb wrote:
> They're not selling anything. Why would the information be false?

I've had two done for properties of my own since they started: both
reports had errors in which I pointed out and had altered.

David

John Rumm

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Feb 28, 2009, 10:43:00 AM2/28/09
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Arfa Daily wrote:

> How much has it cost the poor sods who are selling us the business, to have
> these 'consultants' along to produce this report ? I dread to think. I

Prolly about £30 - the EPC is usually paid for out of the payment for
the HIP


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

John Rumm

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Feb 28, 2009, 10:49:23 AM2/28/09
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No offence intended, but that has to be one of the most feeble defences
of EPCs I have ever read... how difficult do you suppose it would have
been to gain that information without the EPC? Would you normally set
about ripping and replacing a heating system without even looking at
what is there first?

John Rumm

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Feb 28, 2009, 11:01:23 AM2/28/09
to
Rednadnerb wrote:

> They're not selling anything. Why would the information be false? When

In my limited experience of these things, it probably will be due to
lack of knowledge and assumptions made about the building. The
inspectors can only look at stuff, and not peer into the fabric of the
building or carry out any detailed inspection (after all this is a
budget service involving a quick walk round taking some notes and then a
cut'n'paste job to prepare the report back at abase along with the five
others he did that morning).

> it comes to energy efficiency I have to rely on someone else's
> calculations, getting the necessary information and doing the
> calculations myself is not something I would be able to do.

And neither can they. They will ask you about the construction (if you
are there for the inspection) - but if you don't know they can only
guess and will frequently guess wrong[1]. Hence they are starting with
the wrong data before they do any calculation.

They ought to come out with a assessment that is in the approximate
ballpark, but it could easily be an energy band one way or the other in
the wrong direction.

> It also told me that replacing the the single glazing with energy
> efficient coated double glazed units will save me about thirty odd
> quid a year, another expensive mistake avoided!

Its a shame that this is not common knowledge really - but it has always
been the case the DG is hard to justify on a cost saving basis alone.

[1] I walked round with the inspector for the one on the last place I
sold - I had detailed knowledge of the buildings construction, right
down to being able to give him u values for all the bits I have
built/extended. Even with that the report still contained a fair amount
of nonsense like an observation that the loft had less than the
recommended amount of insulation (there was no loft - I had converted it
- and in the process insulated all of the envelope to better than
current required standards ).

Alang

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Feb 28, 2009, 11:32:04 AM2/28/09
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On Sat, 28 Feb 2009 16:01:23 +0000, John Rumm
<see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:

>Rednadnerb wrote:
>

>
>> It also told me that replacing the the single glazing with energy
>> efficient coated double glazed units will save me about thirty odd
>> quid a year, another expensive mistake avoided!
>
>Its a shame that this is not common knowledge really - but it has always
>been the case the DG is hard to justify on a cost saving basis alone.
>

As someone who had pools of water on window cills and water running
down the walls from them I consider double glazing a must. The current
specifications and regulations however go right over the top. Prescott
is a complete twat

Arfa Daily

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Feb 28, 2009, 12:51:45 PM2/28/09
to

"John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message
news:gNCdnR2-a4oZxjTU...@posted.plusnet...

> Arfa Daily wrote:
>
>> How much has it cost the poor sods who are selling us the business, to
>> have these 'consultants' along to produce this report ? I dread to think.
>> I
>
> Prolly about £30 - the EPC is usually paid for out of the payment for the
> HIP
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John.
>

Ah, but this was the sale of a business, and the premises that it is
conducted in, that are to be leased by us, so I expect that it then became
some nonsense figure, because it was 'commercial' ...

Arfa


John Rumm

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Feb 28, 2009, 4:24:44 PM2/28/09
to

Indeed as I alluded, there may be other good reasons for wanting it that
are nothing to do with cost savings directly.

Rednadnerb

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Feb 28, 2009, 7:22:40 PM2/28/09
to

No offence taken.
But yes, I have always thought that says electricity is expensive but
gas is cheap and I have always thought that if you have a gas supply
then you are a fool not to have a gas boiler.
The energy performance certificate put me right.

>how difficult do you suppose it would have
> been to gain that information without the EPC?

Unless you work for the building research establishment then I would
have thought this kind of information would be difficult to obtain,
and who has the time anyway? I want to take someone else's word for
it.

Most of the people who subscribe to this website, like most of the
people that I know, have absolutely no need of energy performance
certificates or indeed house surveys but we should not forget that we
are a minority. 90% of people out there are absolutely clueless.

The more information the better, even if most of us don't need it.

John Rumm

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Feb 28, 2009, 8:52:39 PM2/28/09
to
Rednadnerb wrote:

>>> I went into an Estate Agents today to look at the Home Information
>>> Pack for a flat that I am thinking of buying, the pack included an
>>> energy performance certificate which I found very interesting and it
>>> gave me the answer to some questions that the estate agent couldn't
>>> help me with.
>>> Ignoring the common sense stuff about lightbulbs, it told me that the
>>> heating system is communal and very efficient and the hot water is
>>> from an electric immersion heater and there's not much I can do to
>>> improve on that.

>>> Without that information I might well have ripped it all out and put
>>> in a combi boiler, costing loads and saving not much.
>>> It's not all bad.

>> No offence intended, but that has to be one of the most feeble defences
>> of EPCs I have ever read... how difficult do you suppose it would have
>> been to gain that information without the EPC? Would you normally set
>> about ripping and replacing a heating system without even looking at
>> what is there first?

> No offence taken.


> But yes, I have always thought that says electricity is expensive but
> gas is cheap and I have always thought that if you have a gas supply
> then you are a fool not to have a gas boiler.

For heating this is true generally. For hot water it is also true, but
since the amounts involved are far less, it is less relevant.

> The energy performance certificate put me right.

Well, it depends on your point of view; A gas multipoint or combi would
have produced cheaper hot water probably, although it would take a very
long time to get any payback.

>> how difficult do you suppose it would have
>> been to gain that information without the EPC?
>
> Unless you work for the building research establishment then I would
> have thought this kind of information would be difficult to obtain,
> and who has the time anyway? I want to take someone else's word for
> it.

I figured that a quick look about the property would identify how the
water was heated, and also display an absence of space heating boiler in
the flat. A chat with a neighbour or freeholder would confirm the
communal heating. Hardly something you need a "consultant" for.

> Most of the people who subscribe to this website, like most of the
> people that I know, have absolutely no need of energy performance
> certificates or indeed house surveys but we should not forget that we
> are a minority. 90% of people out there are absolutely clueless.

clueless and probably still don't care.

> The more information the better, even if most of us don't need it.

Shame is someone is paying for the information that could could work out
for yourself in five mins, and probably has little if any bearing on
your decision to buy a particular property.

The Natural Philosopher

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Feb 28, 2009, 9:27:22 PM2/28/09
to
Rednadnerb wrote:
>
> But yes, I have always thought that says electricity is expensive but
> gas is cheap and I have always thought that if you have a gas supply
> then you are a fool not to have a gas boiler.
> The energy performance certificate put me right.
>
A heat pump is about even-stevens with fossils right now, and better
carbon footprint.

Doctor Drivel

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Mar 1, 2009, 4:36:09 AM3/1/09
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"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:12358746...@proxy01.news.clara.net...

Air sourced heat pumps are not. Only well installed ground sourced heat
pumps are and then it depends on the installation.

Andrew Gabriel

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Mar 1, 2009, 8:17:12 AM3/1/09
to
In article <godkv1$sps$1...@news.motzarella.org>,

"Doctor Drivel" <kill...@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
> "The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
> news:12358746...@proxy01.news.clara.net...
>> Rednadnerb wrote:
>>>
>>> But yes, I have always thought that says electricity is expensive but
>>> gas is cheap and I have always thought that if you have a gas supply
>>> then you are a fool not to have a gas boiler.
>>> The energy performance certificate put me right.
>>>
>> A heat pump is about even-stevens with fossils right now, and better
>> carbon footprint.
>
> Air sourced heat pumps are not.

Just did a check on mine, and it beats fossel fuel just, if you
take a gas boiler to be 100% efficient. Given that even a condensing
boiler isn't 100% efficient, then the air sourced heat pump is actually
doing better than just the fuel usage would indicate. However, we're
only talking of something like a 20-30% difference, not factors of two,
or orders of magnitude. Mine is part of a 12000 BTU/hr aircon unit;
larger units will be more efficient (and conversely, smaller ones are
less efficient).

> Only well installed ground sourced heat
> pumps are and then it depends on the installation.

I suspect a ground sourced heat pump would be more viable for more of
the year (i.e. at low outdoor temperatures, where air sourced ones
have to start running defrost cycles).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Doctor Drivel

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Mar 1, 2009, 11:56:59 AM3/1/09
to

"Andrew Gabriel" <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:49aa8ad8$0$513$5a6a...@news.aaisp.net.uk...

> In article <godkv1$sps$1...@news.motzarella.org>,
> "Doctor Drivel" <kill...@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>
>> "The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
>> news:12358746...@proxy01.news.clara.net...
>>> Rednadnerb wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But yes, I have always thought that says electricity is expensive but
>>>> gas is cheap and I have always thought that if you have a gas supply
>>>> then you are a fool not to have a gas boiler.
>>>> The energy performance certificate put me right.
>>>>
>>> A heat pump is about even-stevens with fossils right now, and better
>>> carbon footprint.
>>
>> Air sourced heat pumps are not.
>
> Just did a check on mine, and it beats fossel fuel just,

What cost over a year? Taking one snatch does not tell all the story. As
you noted defrost when it works in reverse and low outdoor temps when
resistance heaters need to be used to top up. There are also good and bad
ASHPs.

As general guide ASHPs do not compete with good condensing gas boiler in
running costs. GSHP's are generally equal. Then there is the higher
capital costs of heat pumps - although some makers are saying ASHPs are
compatible with boilers.


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