Dri master condensation unit?

[sweetheart]

I know I am always banging on about the condensation issue I have. I have
tried many things but I came across this
"Drimaster" thing by accident .

Can someone explain in simpletons terms
a) what it is
b) how it works ( seen dozens of diagrams about air flow and understoond
nothing)
c) is it expensive to fit?
d)how is it fitted?
e) does it work?

We had been considering cavity wall insulation but this time of year the
kitchen external wall ( North) is virtually streaming with water.
Dehumidifier helps but it isn't a real solution.

Thanks.

(we have a detached bungalow in the Tamar Valley and its very wet here.
No gas mains and all electric)

[Harry Bloomfield]

sweetheart laid this down on his screen :

> I know I am always banging on about the condensation issue I have. I have
> tried many things but I came across this
> "Drimaster" thing by accident .

Which seems to be a NZ based company and all it seems to do is provide
ventilation.

>
> Can someone explain in simpletons terms
> a) what it is
> b) how it works ( seen dozens of diagrams about air flow and understoond
> nothing)

Warm air can support more moisture in the air than can cold. Warm moist
air hits a colder surface and the moisture condenses out on the
surface. Thee fix is to increase the surface temperature (warmth and
insulation) and /or reduce the amount of moisture in the warm air -
extract the moist air, cure the source of the moisture and /or
dehumify.

To prevent moisture in the atmosphere - don't dry clothes in the house
without some special arrangement to remove the moisture. Use a cooker
hood which extracts moisture to the outside, always fit lids on pans
when simmering food - it saves fuel and moisture in the air. Fit an
extract fan in the bathroom and make sure it always runs when the bath
or shower are used.

We dry clothes in a small utility room, which has a flat roof and just
double brick walls (no cavity) using washing lines, a fan and a
dehumidifier - rather than using the drier. Even the heaviest items dry
overnight and we never get any moisture appearing on the walls.

This house used to be cold and suffer damp. Central heating, good
insulation, good double glazing and extractor fans in appropriate
places now mean it is as dry as a bone, never cold and heating bills
are low.

> c) is it expensive to fit?
> d)how is it fitted?
> e) does it work?
>
> We had been considering cavity wall insulation but this time of year the
> kitchen external wall ( North) is virtually streaming with water.
> Dehumidifier helps but it isn't a real solution.
>
> Thanks.
>
> (we have a detached bungalow in the Tamar Valley and its very wet here. No
> gas mains and all electric)

Even more reason to sort out some proper insulation.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

[sweetheart]

"Harry Bloomfield" <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mn.6bdd7dd140...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk...

>

>
> Even more reason to sort out some proper insulation.
>

Thanks but everything else is insulated. Just finished new widows and
doors ( cos I was told this might sort the problem) Roof insulation done
The cavity walls were left because of the condensation issues. In fact
probably the condensation is a result of being over insulated.

In fact things might be worse now than before vis condensation - and it is
condensation. I have had this confirmed by a surveyor.

Short of dying I cant see any other ways we can now reduce the moisture in
the air as it seems its just a product of being alive.

The dri master thing is being sold here locally by a firm in Devon ( not
NZ - although it may be an NZ import) as a permanent solution to
condensation.

[Peter Parry]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 15:57:56 -0000, "sweetheart" <hotmail.com> wrote:


>Can someone explain in simpletons terms

>a) what it is

An expensive ceiling fan

>b) how it works ( seen dozens of diagrams about air flow and understoond
>nothing)

Same way as any fan, except instead of extracting air it blows cold
air in from the attic.

>c) is it expensive to fit?

In a bungalow it shouldn't be that expensive, it only involves cutting
a hole in the ceiling, screwing the small motor to the roof (to reduce
the noise it makes) and wiring it up. In a house it may be more
involved if you want to bring the tube down to the ground floor.

>d)how is it fitted?

As above

>e) does it work?

No better than any other small fan. It won't compensate for drying
clothes inside for example. They do have some quite good guidance on
avoiding condensation at
http://www.nuairegroup.com/our-products/residential/solutions-for-home-owners/
follow that and you probably won't need their expensive fan.

[Peter Parry]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:38:36 -0000, "sweetheart" <hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Harry Bloomfield" <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:mn.6bdd7dd140...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk...
>>
>
>>
>> Even more reason to sort out some proper insulation.
>
> Thanks but everything else is insulated. Just finished new widows and
>doors ( cos I was told this might sort the problem)

They lied. Fitting new windows and doors will have exacerbated the
problem as they would reduce natural ventilation in the bungalow.

> Roof insulation done
>The cavity walls were left because of the condensation issues.

Cavity wall insulation would have been the one thing which helped and
would have been more effective than new windows.

> In fact
>probably the condensation is a result of being over insulated.

No, it is a result of under heating and under ventilation.

>In fact things might be worse now than before vis condensation

Of course, what little ventilation you had has been reduced by the new
doors and windows.

>Short of dying I cant see any other ways we can now reduce the moisture in
>the air as it seems its just a product of being alive.

It's a product of inadequate ventilation and inadequate heating. As
long as you have both of these you will have condensation. It is very
simple to cure.

>The dri master thing is being sold here locally by a firm in Devon ( not
>NZ - although it may be an NZ import) as a permanent solution to
>condensation.

Unless you change your lifestyle it won't achieve anything. If you
change your lifestyle you won't need it.

[sweetheart]

"Peter Parry" <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote in message
news:orr5f8lce2dfcmvq6...@4ax.com...

Thanks for explaining that.

[sweetheart]

"Peter Parry" <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote in message

news:jls5f8duv3akpdsbc...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:38:36 -0000, "sweetheart" <hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Harry Bloomfield" <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:mn.6bdd7dd140...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk...
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> Even more reason to sort out some proper insulation.
>>
>> Thanks but everything else is insulated. Just finished new widows and
>>doors ( cos I was told this might sort the problem)
>
> They lied. Fitting new windows and doors will have exacerbated the
> problem as they would reduce natural ventilation in the bungalow.
>
>> Roof insulation done
>>The cavity walls were left because of the condensation issues.
>
> Cavity wall insulation would have been the one thing which helped and
> would have been more effective than new windows.
>

Except I wastold I would be better not having Cavity wall insulation ( this
was the energy grants thing) because of the condensation.

>
> No, it is a result of under heating and under ventilation.

It may well be under heating . I have an eco warrieor OH ( as I have said
before). He follows the government advice to the letter ( turn down heating
etc) - and what we have is a effectively a mess. When I used to have the
heating on in winter we didnt have condensation like now.

Then OH retired and we had a recession and everyone was supposed to be "
poor and .... we got advice to turn down for " green reasons" and now I have
a problem.

What needs sorting out is the governemtn advice to be frank ( because t****
like my OH take them too seriously) Rant over

>
>>In fact things might be worse now than before vis condensation
>
> Of course, what little ventilation you had has been reduced by the new
> doors and windows.
>
>>Short of dying I cant see any other ways we can now reduce the moisture
>>in
>>the air as it seems its just a product of being alive.
>
> It's a product of inadequate ventilation and inadequate heating. As
> long as you have both of these you will have condensation. It is very
> simple to cure.

> Unless you change your lifestyle it won't achieve anything. If you
> change your lifestyle you won't need it.

With respectyou dont know my lifestyle to make that comment. I have done
absolutely everything to minimise condensation. I do not dry indoors if I
can help it ( I run the washing machine and a condensing intergral dryer
once a week. I hardley ever cook except on Sunday lunch times.

I dont use water , boil a kettle or anything else very often ( conscious of
how it affects the kitchen)

The kitchen is cold. It is not heated. There is no heat source there. There
is a dehumidifier because I put it there.

But clearly the dri master wont do much more than the dehumidifier does now

I know heat cures it. But I am not allowed to have heat on.

[polygonum]

The Drimaster appears to quote its cost of running as its own
electricity consumption. But completely ignores that you will be blowing
COLD air from outside. So, to keep even your current interior
temperature, you will have to be heating that incoming air.

Their Irish site is odd. Says the units use between 4.6 and 8 watts per
day. (Obviously not understanding measurement of electricity very well.)

http://www.drimaster.ie/drimaster-product-range

--
Rod

[Harry Bloomfield]

sweetheart pretended :

> Except I wastold I would be better not having Cavity wall insulation ( this
> was the energy grants thing) because of the condensation.

That is simply wrong advice. Lack of insulation makes for colder
surfaces, colder surfaces is where it will condense. Warmth and good
insulation will help, but you also need to keep the interior airs
moisture level down to acceptable levels, by ventilating sources of
moisture as close to the sources as possible.

People do exhale some moisture, but by far the worse sources are
washing, cooking and bathing.

[Harry Bloomfield]

polygonum brought next idea :

> The Drimaster appears to quote its cost of running as its own electricity
> consumption. But completely ignores that you will be blowing COLD air from
> outside. So, to keep even your current interior temperature, you will have to
> be heating that incoming air.
>
> Their Irish site is odd. Says the units use between 4.6 and 8 watts per day.
> (Obviously not understanding measurement of electricity very well.)
>
> http://www.drimaster.ie/drimaster-product-range

I would give that a very wide berth. An 8w fan will make no difference
even to a tiny room, never mind a bungalow. They also make no mention
of any attempt to recover any heat.

[Peter Parry]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 18:17:25 -0000, "sweetheart" <hotmail.com> wrote:


>"Peter Parry" <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote

>> Cavity wall insulation would have been the one thing which helped and
>> would have been more effective than new windows.

>Except I wastold I would be better not having Cavity wall insulation ( this
>was the energy grants thing) because of the condensation.

You were told wrongly.

>> No, it is a result of under heating and under ventilation.

>It may well be under heating . I have an eco warrieor OH ( as I have said
>before). He follows the government advice to the letter

No he doesn't, I doubt if either of you even know where to find it.

The Energy Saving Trust advice is "Your room thermostat should be set
to the lowest comfortable temperature - typically between 18°C and
21°C. "

They also say :-

"5.4 Under-heating
When a home is not properly heated, the internal surface temperatures
of the external walls and roof can be very low, particularly if the
building is not adequately insulated. When the warm moist air
circulating within the property comes into contacts with the cold
surfaces, it is chilled and less able to carry moisture. This results
in surface condensation.

The problem of under-heating is often exacerbated by poor ventilation.
Moisture is put into the air inside the home by the residents’ cooking
and bathing, drying clothes and simply just breathing. This moisture
can be readily removed from the air (ie by extract fans in kitchens
and bathrooms or flues on heating appliances); if it is not, then the
risk of surface condensation is increased."

You might want to try to read the following Energy Saving Trust
documents :-

http://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/media.jsp?mediaid=22603&filetype=pdf
(page 7 onwards)

> ( turn down heating
>etc) - and what we have is a effectively a mess. When I used to have the
>heating on in winter we didnt have condensation like now.

Precisely. Now you know the solution.

>Then OH retired and we had a recession and everyone was supposed to be "
>poor and .... we got advice to turn down for " green reasons" and now I have
>a problem.

You were not told to turn off the heating nor were you told to keep it
at such a level that condensation was inevitable.

Don't blame the government for you and your partners inability to
read. The World Health Organization's standard for warmth says 18C is
suitable for healthy people who are appropriately dressed. For those
with respiratory problems or allergies, they recommend a minimum of
16C and for the sick, disabled, very old or very young, a minimum of
20C .

>What needs sorting out is the governemtn advice to be frank ( because t****
>like my OH take them too seriously)

No, what needs to be sorted out is you and your idiot partner. Where
does this "government advice" tell you to turn of the heating
completely or keep it at levels where condensation occurs?

>> It's a product of inadequate ventilation and inadequate heating. As
>> long as you have both of these you will have condensation. It is very
>> simple to cure.
>> Unless you change your lifestyle it won't achieve anything. If you
>> change your lifestyle you won't need it.
>
>With respectyou dont know my lifestyle to make that comment.

You have explained it in tedious detail over some years and
steadfastly refused to accept all advice on solving the problem.

> I have done absolutely everything to minimise condensation.

No you haven't.

> I do not dry indoors if I can help it ( I run the washing machine and a condensing intergral dryer
>once a week.

Condensing combined washer dryers put litres of water per load into
the room they are in.

>I hardley ever cook except on Sunday lunch times.

>I dont use water , boil a kettle or anything else very often ( conscious of
>how it affects the kitchen)

You don't shower or bathe?

>The kitchen is cold. It is not heated. There is no heat source there. There
>is a dehumidifier because I put it there.

Try heating it.

>But clearly the dri master wont do much more than the dehumidifier does now

It will do considerably less, it is only a small fan and relies upon
the rooms below being maintained at an adequate temperature.

>I know heat cures it. But I am not allowed to have heat on.

So live with your soggy partner and wet walls and stop winging. There
isn't another solution which will work.

[Chris J Dixon]

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

>> http://www.drimaster.ie/drimaster-product-range
>
>I would give that a very wide berth. An 8w fan will make no difference
>even to a tiny room, never mind a bungalow.

Agreed.

>They also make no mention
>of any attempt to recover any heat.

Well, it does make the claim:

http://nuaire.info/catalogue/PIV-Drimaster2000.pdf

>EXTREMELY LOW POWER CONSUMPTION
>Average approximately 0.16 watts / litre / second
>and solar gains up to 550kW / hr / year.

>INTELLIGENT HEAT RECOVERY
>Twin sensors optimise energy efficiency, adjusting
>settings to provide increased comfort.

However, if you look closer, what it actually does is

>The unit�s �Intelligent Heat Recovery� shall be achieved via twin temperature
>sensors; one sensor integral to the unit to monitor loft temperatures and one
>sensor located in the living space. The twin sensors shall optimise energy
>performance accordingly.

So, all it can do is decide whether, or at what speed, to
operate. The occasions during the heating season when the loft is
warmer than you want the house to be are likely to be few.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk

Plant amazing Acers.

[sweetheart]

"Harry Bloomfield" <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message

news:mn.6ced7dd1f1...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk...
> sweetheart pretended :

> People do exhale some moisture, but by far the worse sources are washing,
> cooking and bathing.

Thanks for the advice but I have done all of that and I still get
condensation. I cant have wall insulation now as grants have been stopped -
so that is that as they say.

I cook once a week ( around an hour. I use a microwave or toaster the rest
of the time - and that is that. I am not in during the day Mon - Friday. I
wash once a week . I never dry clothes indoors.

The bathroiom does not suffer from condensation. Its only the kitchen - and
only the one wall.

The advice of Cornwall Country Council was to keep all the windows open
permanently. It seems a lot of people have condensation and mould down here.

[sweetheart]

"Peter Parry" <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote in message

news:joc6f81uleqgl1q4k...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 13 Jan 2013 18:17:25 -0000, "sweetheart" <hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>"Peter Parry" <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote

> No he doesn't, I doubt if either of you even know where to find it.
>
> The Energy Saving Trust advice is "Your room thermostat should be set
> to the lowest comfortable temperature - typically between 18°C and
> 21°C. "

Then you think worongly. I went to the energy saving trust. They told me I
should not have cavity wall insulation. They said a lot of things.

I also did their web site " energy test" and despite their 21 degrees
arguement , the calculations would place us well above any eco values if we
followed them. So much for their " knowledge.

After having spoken to an advisor of theirs on the phone, I lost all faith
in anything they say. he knew less than I did.

We have poor ( in fact NO ventilation since we bubble wrappedthe house to "
save energy costs" . I acknowledge that.) The extractor fan in the kitchen
does nothing . It would have to be on all the time ( like the
dehumidifier. )

It does seem to ease up when its warmer outside or when its dry. The rain
doesnt help at all - and its barely stoped raining for the last three years.

( dont think I am stupid because I ask a lot of questions. I am just
lacking in an decent education)

The fact is, I suspect,like many things these quangos wereset up with half
baked ideas. People like my OH and his predecessor her, took them up. Then
the problems started and then they revised their ideas at the quango, but
the problem remains .

They are stuck now with just one thing " dont breathe". I know DIYers will
not believe that but it is the reality here.
>
> They also say :-
>

Yeah, I know what they say. I spoke to them. They are less knowledgeable
than I am if you get their " advisors" They just read off a set text.

> Moisture is put into the air inside the home by the residents' cooking
> and bathing, drying clothes and simply just breathing. This moisture
> can be readily removed from the air (ie by extract fans in kitchens
> and bathrooms or flues on heating appliances); if it is not, then the
> risk of surface condensation is increased."

I changed my lifestyle and the " breathing" bit is the only bit of all of
that left that is done in this house. Its their stock answer and its just
plain wrong - self evidently since I cannot deal with the problem.

It is condensation and it only on the one wall. Taking the pantry down has
helped but not cured this. Instead of water dripping down all the walls of
the pantry, its now just the outide wall on the end.

When I find the solution, I will have to let you know. Until then, thanks
for the advice. I do value it. It gives me ideas as to what else and which
direction I need to move next in persuit of sorting this.

[sweetheart]

"Harry Bloomfield" <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message

news:mn.6d467dd1b2...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk...

They told my other half about a heat recovery unit ( we think it was them -
he isnt sure!). But it would only work on gas or oil systems as it is
attached somewhere in the heating system and you have to have a wet system
for that.. We dont have either.

[sweetheart]

"Harry Bloomfield" <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mn.6d467dd1b2...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk...
> polygonum brought next idea :

>

> I would give that a very wide berth. An 8w fan will make no difference
> even to a tiny room, never mind a bungalow. They also make no mention of
> any attempt to recover any heat.
>

Clearly scotching the idea of a dri master. Thanks. No money wasted trying
that :)

[John Williamson]

sweetheart wrote:
> When I find the solution, I will have to let you know. Until then,
> thanks for the advice. I do value it. It gives me ideas as to what else
> and which direction I need to move next in persuit of sorting this.
>

You've been told the solution many times. You need to increase the
ventilation and increase heat usage to maintain relative hunidity
indoors at a low level, which will reduce the dew point on the exterior
walls. This will cure your condensation problems.

It's a problem I've seen many times in student (and pensioners')
accommodation where they close all the ventilation off and turn heat
down to save money. Open even a small window a crack or install some
permanent vents, such as an airbrick in the worst affected rooms, and
turn the heat up a touch, and the problem goes away as if by magic. I
did it once in a *very* stuffy 19th Century house in Shepherds Bush by
removing the blanking plate at the back of a hearth. The effect was
immediate, and noticed by the clients within seconds.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Chris J Dixon]

sweetheart wrote:

>They told my other half about a heat recovery unit ( we think it was them -
>he isnt sure!). But it would only work on gas or oil systems as it is
>attached somewhere in the heating system and you have to have a wet system
>for that.. We dont have either.

There are lots of possibilities for heat recovery, depending upon
what you are willing to invest. These start at units suitable for
a single room, and are basically air to air heat exchangers where
the outgoing warm air heats the incoming cold air.

Whole house units are naturally more complicated, but in a
bungalow at least you have relatively easy access to both
bathroom and kitchen.

What you have part described sounds more like some form of heat
pump, a very different thing.

[Peter Parry]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 08:29:34 -0000, "sweetheart" <hotmail.com> wrote:


>"Peter Parry" <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote

>> The Energy Saving Trust advice is "Your room thermostat should be set
>> to the lowest comfortable temperature - typically between 18°C and
>> 21°C. "
>
>Then you think worongly.

Try reading

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Heating-and-hot-water/Thermostats-and-controls

That is where the quotation came from.

>I went to the energy saving trust.
>They told me I should not have cavity wall insulation. They said a lot of things.

Why did they say you should not have cavity wall insulation? What
other things did they say?

>I also did their web site " energy test" and despite their 21 degrees
>arguement , the calculations would place us well above any eco values if we
>followed them.

What is an "eco value"?

>We have poor ( in fact NO ventilation since we bubble wrappedthe house to "
>save energy costs" .

So where do you think all the moisture generated within the house is
going to go? Stopping ventilation does not reduce energy costs.

>I acknowledge that.) The extractor fan in the kitchen
>does nothing . It would have to be on all the time ( like the
>dehumidifier. )

It really is very simple. You have two choices, both of which will
eliminate the condensation problem quickly and reliably.

The first is to turn off the heating completely and to leave all the
windows open permanently. If you can reduce the inside temperature of
the house to be the same as outside you will get no condensation.

The second is to improve ventilation and raise heating levels.

Nothing else will work. It really is that simple.

The amount of condensation in the bungalow depends upon three
factors:

1. how much water vapour is produced by the actions of its residents
2. how cold or warm the bungalow is.
3. How much ventilation there is.

You have reduced the first but have either done nothing about the
other two or made things worse such as by fitting double glazing.

As you are repeatedly told, all three factors must be addressed, not
just one.

>It does seem to ease up when its warmer outside or when its dry. The rain
>doesnt help at all - and its barely stoped raining for the last three years.

>( dont think I am stupid because I ask a lot of questions.

It is not asking questions but a refusal to listen to answers which is
a better indication of intelligence.

>I changed my lifestyle

Not where it mattered you didn't.

>and the " breathing" bit is the only bit of all of that left that is done in this house.
> Its their stock answer and its just plain wrong - self evidently since I cannot deal with the problem.

You cannot deal with the problem because you steadfastly refuse to do
what is necessary to solve it. As long as you continue to do that the
problem will continue.

>It is condensation and it only on the one wall. Taking the pantry down has
>helped but not cured this. Instead of water dripping down all the walls of
>the pantry, its now just the outide wall on the end.
>
>When I find the solution, I will have to let you know.

You have been told the solution many times by many people but refuse
to listen. As long as you continue to refuse to listen and refuse to
take the simple steps necessary to solve the problem it will remain
and you will have to live with it.

[sweetheart]

"Chris J Dixon" <ch...@cdixon.me.uk> wrote in message
news:brm7f8tirkrk8r7m4...@4ax.com...

> sweetheart wrote:

>
> Whole house units are naturally more complicated, but in a
> bungalow at least you have relatively easy access to both
> bathroom and kitchen.
>
> What you have part described sounds more like some form of heat
> pump, a very different thing.

These peoplerang up afterwehadcalled the energy saving trust. I guesswe were
passed on. They offered all sorts of things on the new " green deal" but
assumed we had gas or oil - when OH said we didnt, they said they couldnt
help.

They asked him what we had been looking for. He said wall insulation. They
dont do that. Apparently the green deal operates through private companies
( if what I got the drift of was right) and you can have all sorts( by a
loan) but only if they have an installer in your area doing it.

Clearly we dont have one for wall insulation. In short its a rip off.

[sweetheart]

"Peter Parry" <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote in message

news:n4k7f8polosod31uf...@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 08:29:34 -0000, "sweetheart" <hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>"Peter Parry" <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote
>
>>> The Energy Saving Trust advice is "Your room thermostat should be set
>>> to the lowest comfortable temperature - typically between 18°C and
>>> 21°C. "
>>
>>Then you think worongly.
>
> Try reading
>
> http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Heating-and-hot-water/Thermostats-and-controls
>
> That is where the quotation came from.
>
> >I went to the energy saving trust.
>>They told me I should not have cavity wall insulation. They said a lot of
>>things.
>
> Why did they say you should not have cavity wall insulation? What
> other things did they say?

They said we could not have cavity wall insulation because we had to deal
with the condensation first.

They said we would have to have a loan under the green deal.

They said they wouldpass us on to a company in our area who was authorised
to do work under the green deal ( thats where this dri master started)

They said we could have three AAA tripple glazed windows as the deal.

We could have a boiler ( cant!)

We could have loft insultation ( got it)

But not cavity wall insulation as it was not available to us and it wouldnt
suit because of the condensation..

>

> What is an "eco value"?

This was that calculator thing that could determine if you were saving
enough to be " green" My estimation of playing with that is hardly anyone
can match the criteria for " saving enough" unless they
a) have one bath a week ( only one if two of you - then its one bath a
fortnight!)

b) have a dishwasher but only use it twice a week

c) wash clothes once a week.

d) dry everything elsewhere ( outside or dont wash if it rains).

..... I have cut almost everythintg to this for the condensation anyway
,what we areleft with is breathing.

>
"

> It really is very simple. You have two choices, both of which will
> eliminate the condensation problem quickly and reliably.
>
> The first is to turn off the heating completely and to leave all the
> windows open permanently. If you can reduce the inside temperature of
> the house to be the same as outside you will get no condensation.
>
> The second is to improve ventilation and raise heating levels.
>
> Nothing else will work. It really is that simple.
>
> The amount of condensation in the bungalow depends upon three
> factors:
>
> 1. how much water vapour is produced by the actions of its residents
> 2. how cold or warm the bungalow is.
> 3. How much ventilation there is.
>
> You have reduced the first but have either done nothing about the
> other two or made things worse such as by fitting double glazing.
>
> As you are repeatedly told, all three factors must be addressed, not
> just one.
>
>>It does seem to ease up when its warmer outside or when its dry. The rain
>>doesnt help at all - and its barely stoped raining for the last three
>>years.
>


>

> You have been told the solution many times by many people but refuse
> to listen. As long as you continue to refuse to listen and refuse to
> take the simple steps necessary to solve the problem it will remain
> and you will have to live with it.

Its not practical is it? OH wont pay the bills and I am not sure we could
afford them. So I guess the answer is open the windows and live in the cold?

[sweetheart]

"Chris J Dixon" <ch...@cdixon.me.uk> wrote in message
news:brm7f8tirkrk8r7m4...@4ax.com...
> sweetheart wrote:
>
>

> Whole house units are naturally more complicated, but in a
> bungalow at least you have relatively easy access to both
> bathroom and kitchen.

The only condensation is in the kitchen. I cured the bathroom

>

[sweetheart]

"John Williamson" <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:alhva4...@mid.individual.net...

> sweetheart wrote:

> You've been told the solution many times. You need to increase the
> ventilation and increase heat usage to maintain relative hunidity indoors
> at a low level, which will reduce the dew point on the exterior walls.
> This will cure your condensation problems.
>
> It's a problem I've seen many times in student (and pensioners')
> accommodation where they close all the ventilation off and turn heat down
> to save money.

You have hit the nail on the head. OH lost his job and we have to live like
" pensioners"

[Tim Lamb]

In message <F5qdnePCrsEAX27N...@bt.com>, sweetheart
<hotmail.com@?.?.invalid> writes

>>> http://www.drimaster.ie/drimaster-product-range
>>
>> I would give that a very wide berth. An 8w fan will make no
>>difference even to a tiny room, never mind a bungalow. They also make
>>no mention of any attempt to recover any heat.
>
>They told my other half about a heat recovery unit ( we think it was
>them - he isnt sure!). But it would only work on gas or oil systems as
>it is attached somewhere in the heating system and you have to have a
>wet system for that.. We dont have either.

Vent axia and many others do a *heat recovery* ventilation system.

Basically warm moist air is extracted by fan through a heat exchanger
matrix. Fresh air from outside follows a different route through the
matrix and picks up *some* of the heat from your outgoing air.

The maximum heat recovery is around 60%.

The down side is the installation cost and some noise. Cooling the
outgoing air leads to condensation within the unit which may need a
drain to waste.
>

--
Tim Lamb

[sweetheart]

"sweetheart" <hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:otidna2oR_FGe27N...@bt.com...

I forgot to add they also told us we could have draught proofing ( and yet
you all tell me its lack of ventilation that causes the problem - so just
make sure we have even less ventilation then? So much for the energy trust.

They also told us to get a water meter - and frankly, even SWW told us a
water meter would not save us anything on that.

[Harry Bloomfield]

After serious thinking Peter Parry wrote :

> Why did they say you should not have cavity wall insulation? What
> other things did they say?

It does seem a very odd thing for them to say!

Any surface upon which moisture condenses is due to the fact that the
surface is cold. Make the surface warmer, or the air drier and it will
not condense out on the wall.

>
>> We have poor ( in fact NO ventilation since we bubble wrappedthe house to "
>> save energy costs" .
>
> So where do you think all the moisture generated within the house is
> going to go? Stopping ventilation does not reduce energy costs.

A damp atmosphere in a home will make it feel colder than if it were
dry.

[Man at B&Q]

On Jan 14, 11:49 am, "sweetheart" <hotmail.com> wrote:
> "sweetheart" <hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:otidna2oR_FGe27N...@bt.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Peter Parry" <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote in message
> >news:n4k7f8polosod31uf...@4ax.com...
> >> On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 08:29:34 -0000, "sweetheart" <hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>"Peter Parry" <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote
>
> >>>> The Energy Saving Trust advice is "Your room thermostat should be set
> >>>> to the lowest comfortable temperature - typically between 18°C and
> >>>> 21°C. "
>
> >>>Then you think worongly.
>
> >> Try reading
>

> >>http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Heating-and-hot-water/Thermostats...

>
> >> That is where the quotation came from.
>
> >> >I went to the energy saving trust.
> >>>They told me I should not have cavity wall insulation. They said a lot of
> >>>things.
>
> >> Why did they say you should not have cavity wall insulation?  What
> >> other things did they say?
>
> > They said we could not have cavity wall insulation because we had to deal
> > with the condensation first.
>
> > They said we would have to have a loan under the green deal.
>
> > They said they wouldpass us on to a company in our area who was authorised
> > to do work under the green deal ( thats where this dri master started)
>
> > They said we could have three AAA tripple glazed windows as the deal.
>
> > We could have a boiler ( cant!)
>
> > We could have loft insultation ( got it)
>
> > But not cavity wall insulation as it was not available to us and it
> > wouldnt suit because of the condensation..
>
> I forgot to add they also told us we could have draught proofing ( and yet
> you all tell me its lack of ventilation that causes the problem - so just
> make sure we have even less ventilation then?  So much for the energy trust.
>
> They also told us to get a water meter - and frankly, even SWW told us a
> water meter would not save us anything on that.

Given your frugal lifestyle, a water meter will probably save you a
fortune. But I guess that's just another piece of advice you will
ignore.

MBQ

[Man at B&Q]

On Jan 14, 10:57 am, "sweetheart" <hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Chris J Dixon" <ch...@cdixon.me.uk> wrote in messagenews:brm7f8tirkrk8r7m4...@4ax.com...

>
> > sweetheart wrote:
>
> > Whole house units are naturally more complicated, but in a
> > bungalow at least you have relatively easy access to both
> > bathroom and kitchen.
>
> > What you have part described sounds more like some form of heat
> > pump, a very different thing.
>
> These peoplerang up afterwehadcalled the energy saving trust. I guesswe were
> passed on.  They offered all sorts of things on the new " green deal" but
> assumed we had gas or oil - when OH said we didnt, they said they couldnt
> help.
>
> They asked him what we had been looking for. He said wall insulation. They
> dont do that.

So was it the EST who said you "cannot have" CWI or was it just this
private company who said they don't do it? Have you tried finding
other companies that DO do CWI under the "green deal".

MBQ

[anne.bei...@gmail.com]

I don't know anything about "Drimaster" but it sounds like you what you really need is some insulation. This doesn't have to be horribly expensive or complicated as there are products such as clear insulating film and insulating paint available on the market.

You might be interested by checking out this ressource which explains things like how to do your own home energy audit, understand how air circulates in a house and how to make inexpensive and efficient improvements yourself: http://bit.ly/W2ojt9

Kind regards,

Anne-Marie

[Peter Parry]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:49:51 -0000, "sweetheart" <hotmail.com> wrote:


>I forgot to add they also told us we could have draught proofing ( and yet
>you all tell me its lack of ventilation that causes the problem - so just
>make sure we have even less ventilation then? So much for the energy trust.

There is a difference between draughts which are uncontrolled and
ventilation which is controlled. You new windows should have trickle
ventilators to compensate to some extent for their better sealing - I
assume you have probably closed these.

[Harry Bloomfield]

sweetheart wrote :

> I forgot to add they also told us we could have draught proofing ( and yet
> you all tell me its lack of ventilation that causes the problem - so just
> make sure we have even less ventilation then? So much for the energy trust.

Good ventilation is a world away from drafts. Ventilation is provided
where it needs to be, drafts just left in cold air and hot air out wily
nily.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Tim Lamb submitted this idea :

I cannot see how a passive recovery system can (even in theory) manage
better than 50%.

[sweetheart]

"Man at B&Q" <manat...@hotmail.com> wrote in

Given your frugal lifestyle, a water meter will probably save you a
fortune. But I guess that's just another piece of advice you will
ignore.

Frugal it maybe but I have little choice. I would hate to feelthat I dare
not use water if I wanted to because that too had to be read daily and cut
down when it went up a penny over what OH decided was allowed ( or above
what they energy trust says is your carbon footprint).

Let someone else save the bloody planet as far as I am concerned. So, if you
dont mind,I will not take your advice.

[sweetheart]

"Harry Bloomfield" <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message

news:mn.73df7dd1a9...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk...

>
> Good ventilation is a world away from drafts. Ventilation is provided
> where it needs to be, drafts just left in cold air and hot air out wily
> nily.

Well, we havent got any draughts anyway. That was done by my predecessor
years ago.

[sweetheart]

"Man at B&Q" <manat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:20a8e6b6-22d0-434f...@g6g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...

So was it the EST who said you "cannot have" CWI or was it just this
private company who said they don't do it? Have you tried finding
other companies that DO do CWI under the "green deal".

It works like this:
a) I went to the energy saving trust who gave me advice and said that
therewere a few partical grants going for " early birds" who signed up for
the green deal ahead of time. Beyond that the bloke at their centre was
pretty useless and clueless.

I was passed by him to CCC. CCC told me that I would have to register an
interest. The web site they sent me to did ( in fairness ) say that cavity
wall insulation was available but it asked you to tick a list. We have
condensation and the web site said that beforewe could apply for CWI we
would have to fix the condensation! ( OH thought that having CWI would "
fix" the condensation - hence we (he) were ( was) willing to shellout).

We got a referral. The green deal is sent to accredited private firms.
They called and told OH what they had to offer ...... you cant have what
they do not offer!

They offered everything from this dri master to glaxing and back but when
OH said we didnt have gas or oil and they couldnt fit what they were
offering, they asked him what he was looking for.He said CWI - they said
they didnt do that one.

So we are not able to have CWI . No one locally seems to be accredited to do
it at the moment ( btw - the green deal isn't in yet, we pre registered and
thats how we came to be called up)

[sweetheart]

<anne.bei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0c222d31-262c-48b7...@googlegroups.com...

I don't know anything about "Drimaster" but it sounds like you what you
really need is some insulation. This doesn't have to be horribly expensive
or complicated as there are products such as clear insulating film and
insulating paint available on the market.

You might be interested by checking out this ressource which explains things
like how to do your own home energy audit, understand how air circulates in
a house and how to make inexpensive and efficient improvements yourself:
http://bit.ly/W2ojt9

Thanks. I was wondering if there might be some way of insulating the wall
without CWI ( since we seem to not be able to get that) I will look at the
site.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Oh an infinitely long tube can reach 100%...:-0)

60% is really pretty good. Diminishing returns and all that.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

[sweetheart]

"sweetheart" <hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:hYSdnXlxbr9apWnN...@bt.com...

>
> "Man at B&Q" <manat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:20a8e6b6-22d0-434f...@g6g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> So was it the EST who said you "cannot have" CWI or was it just this
> private company who said they don't do it? Have you tried finding
> other companies that DO do CWI under the "green deal".

You don't get a choice . They refer you to the firm that is selected for
your area. EST told me there was one firm I would be referred to.

[John Williamson]

Internal insulation, maybe 50mm of Celotex, with a vapour barrier of
plastic sheeting on the exposed (interior) side? Insulating plasterboard
on studs next time you replaster the wall?

The book linked to by our gmail using friend is American, and apparently
contains advice on things like better insulation on your hot water
cylinder than a fibreglass jacket. Well, yes, a decent new one with
built in insulation would be that answer. And reducing your lighting
bill without using those "new fangled" CFLs. You'd be better served
listening on here than spending $27 on an American publication with no
preview of its contents, I'd say.

[S Viemeister]

If I remember correctly, you are still employed - tell him it's _your_
money you are spending on heating your home. You might also suggest that
constant damp isn't good for the structure of the building or its
contents (human contents included), and 'saving' money by skimping on
heat, could actually be more expensive in the long run.

[Man at B&Q]

On Jan 14, 4:46 pm, "sweetheart" <hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Man at B&Q" <manatba...@hotmail.com> wrote in

>
> Given your frugal lifestyle, a water meter will probably save you a
> fortune. But I guess that's just another piece of advice you will
> ignore.
>
> Frugal it  maybe   but I have little choice. I would hate to feelthat I dare
> not use water if I wanted to because that too had to be read daily and cut
> down when it went up a  penny over what OH decided was  allowed ( or above
> what they energy trust says is your  carbon footprint).

It's not about being frugal. A family of two will almost certainly
save a fortune even without reducing water usage, just by having a
meter fitted. Our bill was *halved* for a family of 5 when we had a
meter fitted.

[sweetheart]

"Man at B&Q" <manat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c8b20745-39dd-499f...@q16g2000pbt.googlegroups.com...

No it wont. We have a septic tank and so pay very little water rates ( own
drains and land drains and sewerage). SWW make a charge for metered water
that includes sewerage and they themselves have said that no water meter
could end up lower than our current rated water

[Bill Taylor]

I don't think that's true. If they don't provide a service they should
not be charging for it. Although they have a terrible web site this

http://southwestwater.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/172

says

"From April 1st 2012, the volume charge (per cubic metre) of water is
�1.95 (this applies to measured customers only).

If your property is connected for both water and sewerage you can
calculate the total unit cost of supplying, disposing and treating
your water by adding the relevant sewerage volume charge below to the
water volume charge.

The volume charge (per cubic metre) - foul, surface and highway is
�3.30
The volume charge (per cubic metre) - foul and highway is �3.03"

which quite clearly says that you should not be charged for sewerage
and surface water disposal if they don't provide it. Your contact in
SWW was talking rubbish.

[Man at B&Q]

On Jan 15, 9:13 pm, "sweetheart" <hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Man at B&Q" <manatba...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:c8b20745-39dd-499f...@q16g2000pbt.googlegroups.com...

I am very surprised at that and would investigate further.

Have you tried their calculator for yourself?
http://www.southwestwater.co.uk/index.cfm?articleid=7314 shows a
reduction for not putting surface water into the sewers.

MBQ

[sweetheart]

"Bill Taylor" <no...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:salbf8hp2sn8a6ivd...@4ax.com...

But it depends on what you are comparing to. You seem to be assuming we
have a high water rates bill. It doesn't even reach three figures a year.
Can your meter beat that?

SWW meter charges cant.

[sweetheart]

"Man at B&Q" <manat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:8ecb1e88-c2e6-4be2...@xm8g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...

We have a house with a low rateable value ( despite its size ) and that
affects our rateable water charge. You paying less than �100 a year for
water are you?

And remember I can use what I like for my rates. You have to count it up.

I sorry life is miserable enough without having to count the cost of water
via a meter.

[Bill Taylor]

Yes I can. I don't pay anything to any water company. I don't have a
mains water supply and all sewerage and surface water is processed on
site.

I rather think that you would save money by using a meter, but as you
choose to ignore any valid points I guess that you're just trolling.

[sweetheart]

Thanks to everyone for the input. I have decided to try the celotex idea for
insulating/ boarding the walls. I will let you know how I get on.

"sweetheart" <hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:9ICdncZJhJbDW2jN...@bt.com...