Strengthening ceiling joists

[teddy...@hotmail.com]

I'm in the process of moving into a new house (well, old house, but you know what I mean, I hope!). I've had a structural engineer's visit and he said that if I want to board the attic and use it for storing anything heavier than bags of feathers I need to upgrade the existing 4x2 ceiling joists. Initially I thought of taking down the ceilings and replacing with 6x2 joists, but my brother suggested strengthening the existing joists by screwing (and/or glueing) 2x2 lengths; in effect, laminating. This would be considerably quicker, cheaper, and less messy.

Now, I _could_ ask the structural engineer if he thinks this is a satisfactory solution, but a) he's forgotten to send his bill, and I'm reluctant to remind him, and b) he seemed quite blase about the ceilings (he said they wouldn't collapse, just that they might bow or deform a bit) so I don't think I'm putting myself at risk by going down this route.

Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks

Edward

[The Natural Philosopher]

As long as the bits cant slide over the other bits a laminated beam
should work.


> Thanks
>
> Edward


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 00:49:21 -0700 (PDT), teddy...@hotmail.com wrote:

> Initially I thought of taking down the ceilings and replacing with 6x2
> joists,

Ugh, very messy. One assumes you are living in this house or will be
whilst this work happens.

How about putting more 4x2's cross ways to the existing ceiling joists?
That would spread the load and give you an 8" gap to fill with
insulation... I suspect that each crossing point really ought to be fixed
to prevent movement and make a more rigid structure.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[harry]

If your roof has purlins.

You nail/screw a bit of 4x2 across the ceiling joists at 90
deg,immediately beneath the purlins. Then you put vertical ties/
hangers between this bit of wood and the purlins.
This supports the ceiling off the purlins.
In a proper roof, this should have been done already.
If it has,you can put in additional ties/hangers.
Most ceilings have additional support off partition walls below.

Your inspector may just be covering his arse.
Most are complete tossers anyway.
A proper carpenter who works in the building trade can tell you far
more

[charles]

In article <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk>,

you will need to make sure your additional piece is supported at the ends
by the walls - otherwise it's just an extra load.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[polygonum]

harry,

Which "inspector"? None mentioned by OP.

An excuse for trotting out your bile on BIs?

--
Rod

[harry]

Subject to above, screwing gluing extra bits on is a good plan.
Just make sure you can wangle long enough pieces through the loft
trapdoor.
And don't forget to incorporate insulation into your plan.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 00:49:21 -0700 (PDT), teddy...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> Initially I thought of taking down the ceilings and replacing with 6x2
>> joists,
>
> Ugh, very messy. One assumes you are living in this house or will be
> whilst this work happens.
>
> How about putting more 4x2's cross ways to the existing ceiling joists?

That doesn't net the same stiffening.

> That would spread the load and give you an 8" gap to fill with
> insulation... I suspect that each crossing point really ought to be fixed
> to prevent movement and make a more rigid structure.
>


--

[Tim Watts]

How long are the joist spans? 4x2" is pretty string over shorter spans.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

"It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent
moral busybodies."

[Lobster]

On 24/10/2012 08:49, teddy...@hotmail.com wrote:
> you know what I mean, I hope!). I've had a structural engineer's
> visit and he said that if I want to board the attic and use it for
> storing anything heavier than bags of feathers I need to upgrade the
> existing 4x2 ceiling joists.

But what are you actually wanting to use the area for? Living
accomodation or just storage of stuff; and if so, what stuff (how
heavy?) Depends on the unsupported length, but 4x2 is still reasonably
meaty: I imagine for converting to living accomodation building control
would insist on upgrading them, but for just boarding out and stashing
junk, unless it's really heavy stuff I'd have thought you'd probably be OK.

Over my lifetime I've certainly scampered around plenty of roofspaces,
with old, much shallower joists than that (often without even crawling
boards, let alone full, fixed boarding) and have never come to grief.

> I'm reluctant to remind him, and b) he seemed quite blase about the
> ceilings (he said they wouldn't collapse, just that they might bow or
> deform a bit) so I don't think I'm putting myself at risk by going
> down this route.

The guy's going to be professionally qualified - does it not occur to
you that maybe he knows what he's talking about? Imagine putting a 4x2
out in the garden laid out across two supports, like a joist - then you
and a mate climb on and start jumping up and down in the middle. Do you
seriously reckon you'll snap it? That's a far worse scenario than in
your roof space, where the joists will be connected via boards and the
load will be much more spread out.

David

[David WE Roberts]

<teddy...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b08476f6-f640-48a0...@googlegroups.com...

I'm in the process of moving into a new house (well, old house, but you know
what I mean, I hope!). I've had a structural engineer's visit and he said
that if I want to board the attic and use it for storing anything heavier
than bags of feathers I need to upgrade the existing 4x2 ceiling joists.
Initially I thought of taking down the ceilings and replacing with 6x2
joists, but my brother suggested strengthening the existing joists by
screwing (and/or glueing) 2x2 lengths; in effect, laminating. This would be
considerably quicker, cheaper, and less messy.

<snip>

During the course of our refurb we found that our ground floor is on 2*4 at
(IIRC) 350mm centres.
So in principle no great problem in supporting a loft floor as long as the
length of the joist between supports is not excessive and the spacing
between joists is likewise not excessive.
There are calculators around online to tell you what minimum joists you need
for a given length and spacing.

Our loft is on 4*2s at (IIRC) about 400mm spacing.
I've floored it in with chipboard which is screwed to the joists so that
should give a little more strength.
Loads of crap up there and the ceilings haven't come down yet.

AFAICS the main benefit of increasing the joist height is to allow you to
get more insulation down between the joists before flooring over.
Alternatively you could lay Celotex across the joists then chipboard on top
of that and screw through.
This gives more structural rigidity and more insulation.

Oh, and I am assuming that to glue the new wood down you would have to make
sure that the tops of the old joists are reasonably clean :-)

Cheers

Dave R
--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article
<bcc306c6-7929-41e8...@s12g2000vbw.googlegroups.com>,

harry <harry...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Your inspector may just be covering his arse.
> Most are complete tossers anyway.

A structural engineer isn't an 'inspector'.

> A proper carpenter who works in the building trade can tell you far
> more

Fine (maybe) if your house is the same as others he's seen. But it's very
unlikely he will be able to do the calculations required. Nor will he have
the insurance a pro does.

--
*Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt.

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[teddy...@hotmail.com]

Many thanks to all posters. There are a number of solutions that I'll cost out and discuss with the carpenter. I think the main difficulty would be getting the lengths of timber into the roof space - I'm currently thinking that when I put in the recommended air bricks into the gable ends will provide the opportunity to feed in the timber.

[John Williamson]

teddy...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Many thanks to all posters. There are a number of solutions that I'll cost out and discuss with the carpenter. I think the main difficulty would be getting the lengths of timber into the roof space - I'm currently thinking that when I put in the recommended air bricks into the gable ends will provide the opportunity to feed in the timber.

Just one other thought. If you're upgrading the timber anyway, then it
might pay you to upgrade it as if you were going to use the loft for
living space. The extra timber cost now will be less than the labour and
materials to do it again if ever you or a future occupier decides to
convert the loft space, and it may increase the value on resale if the
loft is "conversion ready".

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[michael adams]

<teddy...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b08476f6-f640-48a0...@googlegroups.com...

- I'm in the process of moving into a new house (well, old house, but
- you know what I mean, I hope!). I've had a structural engineer's
- visit and he said that if I want to board the attic and use it for
- storing anything heavier than bags of feathers I need to upgrade
- the existing 4x2 ceiling joists. Initially I thought of taking
- down the ceilings and replacing with 6x2 joists, but my brother
- suggested strengthening the existing joists by screwing
-(and/or glueing) 2x2 lengths; in effect, laminating. This would
- be considerably quicker, cheaper, and less messy.

- Now, I _could_ ask the structural engineer if he thinks this is
- a satisfactory solution, but a) he's forgotten to send his bill,
- and I'm reluctant to remind him, and b) he seemed quite blase
- about the ceilings (he said they wouldn't collapse, just that
- they might bow or deform a bit) so I don't think I'm putting
- myself at risk by going down this route.

- Thoughts, anyone?

- Thanks

- Edward

You don't actually say what you intend to store in the attic
or how heavy its likely to be. But unless you also intend to
widen the loft hatch in the old house, then there's a limit to
the size, and presumably the number of really heavy things
you'll be able to get up there. So that all you need do is
mark out your joists as go along as you board up your loft
and once its finished measure out from below and mark up on
the loft floor above exactly where your supporting walls are
underneath. And then make sure, if you're worried about it that
you only put really heavy things directly above where a joist crosses
a supporting wall. I've got 4x2's and the heaviest thing I've
put up in my loft is a radial arm saw in bits which I winched
up on a pulley directly above the hatch. Though the loft
was already partly boarded up I didn't bother with the marking
at the time but simply measured up below to identify the
best spot over a supporting wall.

Then in 50 years time the person you sold your house to
will be posting on here (some hopes) asking if anyone
can explain all the strange marks on his loft floor


michael adams

...

[meow...@care2.com]

You forgot to tell us the span and spacing of the 4x2s. Those figures change everything.


NT

[PeterC]

That's what I was looking for. My loft is boarded on 3x2 and there's no sign
of any new damage to the ceiling boards (only the cracks that were there
anyway). My spans are about 4m and 3m, with quite big timbers at
right-angles and the double-pointy-nail-thingies in each joist, so this
might not be a guide.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

[harry]

On Oct 24, 11:02 am, "Dave Plowman (News)" <d...@davenoise.co.uk>
wrote:
> In article
> <bcc306c6-7929-41e8-9bd4-2b58713f5...@s12g2000vbw.googlegroups.com>,

>    harry <harry130...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> > Your inspector may just be covering his arse.
> > Most are complete tossers anyway.
>
> A structural engineer isn't an 'inspector'.
>
> > A proper carpenter who works in the building trade can tell you far
> > more
>
> Fine (maybe) if your house is the same as others he's seen. But it's very
> unlikely he will be able to do the calculations required. Nor will he have
> the insurance a pro does.
>

Calculations can be got wrong.
Someone experienced in building construction is far more reliable than
some twerp who has only read books.

I have never had a prospective house purchase surveyed.
Determining domestic house faults is not rocket science as some would
have you believe.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article
<0e54e0ad-8817-4bbb...@p11g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,

harry <harry...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Calculations can be got wrong.
> Someone experienced in building construction is far more reliable than
> some twerp who has only read books.

You think a structural engineer only reads books?

BTW, how do you find this mythical experienced carpenter? Take his word
for it?

> I have never had a prospective house purchase surveyed.

You could start by finding out the difference between a surveyor and a
structural engineer.

> Determining domestic house faults is not rocket science as some would
> have you believe.

And this topic is about 'house faults'?

Perhaps, Harry, you should go back to books and learn now to read properly.

--
*The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese *