Do Bryant Homes have a good reputation for quality?
Mike Mitchell
experiences of this company and its properties?
MM
PJO
Difficult to answer because it is now a trading name of a larger company.
Bryant was independent until bought out (don't know when) and are now part
of the Taylow Woodrow empire. Recently Taylor Woodrow also bought Wilson
Connolly Homes and have now rebranded that company to Bryant too. So, the
Bryant homes near you may not be the same Bryant as on another site where
people have experience.
Bear in mind also that there are always unhappy customers and bad shots
should be taken lightly until proven.
All house developers are much the same and if you want something "nice" or
unusual then build yourself or approach a much smaller developer/builder.
John
work and the standards of the site foreman.
Some house builders set ridiculous time allowances subbies to do some
tasks - leading to skimping (which can be covered up).
Also - what is Quality? To some it may be the 'quality of finish' on the
door handles - to others the quality of the bathroom suite. What it should
mean is Foundations, drains, roofing, brickwork, flooring, etc. Builders can
easily fool the buyer with some slightly more expensive fittings which lead
you to believe the whole property must be of high quality.
--
Regards
John
"PJO" <Peter.jbb.@hotiemaill.nospam.please.com> wrote in message
news:c2cujr$s4l$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
---
All of my outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.613 / Virus Database: 392 - Release Date: 04/03/2004
Mike Tomlinson
<kyli...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>Bryant are now building where I want to move to. What are people's
>experiences of this company and its properties?
http://www.wronglybuilthouses.co.uk/bryant.html
may be of interest.
Mike Mitchell
Thanks for that. I've seen that site before. It seems very emotive in
its commentary. Does one crack make a calamity across the whole
country? I don't know. Sadly there still doesn't appear to be any
organisation, even the Which mob, which lists the truly outstanding
builders of quality houses. After all, there cannot be that many and
it would thus be a very short list.
What about local, one-off builders? They surely are better than the
big companies?
MM
Peter Taylor
"Mike Tomlinson" <mi...@NOSPAM.jasper.org.uk> wrote in message
news:EDOC00Aa...@jasper.org.uk...
Extremely interesting.....
Most people are aware that many builders, particularly those the size of Bryants
or Wilcon Homes, use "subbies". Sometimes these are one man bands, selling only
their labour, for which they are paid by the day. Often though, particularly on
larger projects, whole chunks of the work are subcontracted out to specialist
companies. The subcontractor provides the labour, materials, plant and
equipment, and is paid on the quantity of work done - ie piecework. This
encourages shoddy workmanship and cutting of corners. The system has been going
on for years and years and IMO has bred an attitude of "what can I get away
with" rather than "let's do this properly". Quality control on spec housing
sites is usually down to the main contractor's site staff, who are pressurised
by management to achieve productivity targets and to get work completed as
quickly as possible, often with a bonus at stake. If the Local Authority BCO is
involved, his powers are limited to matters controlled by the Building Regs
(which rules out most of the electrical and finishing work for instance) and he
is not over-concerned with workmanship anyway. The NHBC inspector often only
comes on the site for a chat and a cup of tea. There really is nobody who
represents the interests of the purchaser.
Things were made even more difficult by the recession in the 90's, when a lot of
skilled labour was lost. Contractors were scratching around for labour and many
used foreign (possible illegal?) workers from Kosovo and Eastern Europe.
Although I've seen a few good ones, on the whole this must have encouraged
cheating - I once asked a contractor to dismiss a couple of useless brickies and
two weeks later they arrived back as carpenters!!
On top of all this, modern materials and techniques have been developed solely
with the purpose of increasing productivity on site, and these cheap-quality
shortcuts have now become the norm. Plasterboard on dabs, taping and jointing
and chipboard floating floors are all good examples - all these create severe
drawbacks for the house owner over the traditional methods. Only the builder
see any advantages.
The whole system is geared to producing shoddy workmanship IMO - just like the
bad old days of the car industry. These days if you go out to buy a new house
on an estate you have to expect shoddy workmanship, often very cheap materials
and poor finishing. This has become the normal specification. Very little care
is put into the work and often nobody bothers with a "snag list". The NHBC has
no responsibility towards the purchaser and their "guarantee" very often amounts
to empty words.
Good quality materials and high standards of labour are available, in very short
supply. But not many large spec builders are going to spend that sort of money
while purchasers accept poor quality and without any worthwhile warranty backup.
It would be nice to say that you get what you pay for, but sadly house prices
seem to have very little to do with quality. Depressing isn't it!
To answer the original OP's question - the difference between any two builders
the size of Bryant Homes is not really a matter of the quality of the
construction - that can vary widely from site to site depending on the labour
and supervision employed. The real difference is in the commitment to customer
after-care. Talk to previous purchasers.
Peter
KD
"Peter Taylor" <peter...@DELETETOMAILMEclara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:HCD2c.16406$h44.1...@stones.force9.net...
bought. Make sure to speak to a few of them. I have personally had a
nightmare with Bryant but I wouldn't go so far as to condemn everything they
do. Only most of it :-) We spoke to one resident who seemed quite happy.
We should have spoken to a couple of other neighbours who were having a lot
of trouble :-(
Keith
Tony Bryer
> adly there still doesn't appear to be any
> organisation, even the Which mob, which lists the truly outstanding
> builders of quality houses. After all, there cannot be that many and
> it would thus be a very short list.
Check out http://www.house-builder.co.uk/articles/articleitem.php?id=1228
Full report (I didn't go through the register to download process) is at
http://www.constructingexcellence.org.uk/sectors/housingforum/survey.jsp?level=0
--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
IMM
"Peter Taylor" <peter...@DELETETOMAILMEclara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:HCD2c.16406$h44.1...@stones.force9.net...
>
The sooner a CORGI like system (only better) is applied to all trades the
better all around.
I find Bryant use better quality materials than others such as: doors,
locks, boilers, bricks, rads, windows, sockets, etc. The quality of the
installation is another matter, that can be good or appalling depending on
who installed. The installation quality is the same for any company like
these, but at least the materials were better to begin with.
IMM
"KD" <mun...@nomorespamithurts.smeg> wrote in message
news:404b61fb$0$19242$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
> >
> I can only reiterate this advice. Speak to the locals who have already
> bought. Make sure to speak to a few of them. I have personally had a
> nightmare with Bryant but I wouldn't go so far as to condemn everything
they
> do. Only most of it :-) We spoke to one resident who seemed quite happy.
> We should have spoken to a couple of other neighbours who were having a
lot
> of trouble :-(
What problems and have they fixed them?
IMM
"Tony Bryer" <to...@delme.sda.co.uk> wrote in message
news:VA.0000283...@delme.sda.co.uk...
> In article <n02m40pe6gfj9niq8...@4ax.com>, Mike Mitchell
wrote:
> > adly there still doesn't appear to be any
> > organisation, even the Which mob, which lists the truly outstanding
> > builders of quality houses. After all, there cannot be that many and
> > it would thus be a very short list.
>
> Check out http://www.house-builder.co.uk/articles/articleitem.php?id=1228
>>>
John Prescott could not attend the launch of the latest Housing Forum
National Customer Satisfaction Survey. But the deputy prime minister sent a
message to housebuilders: "Do something about quality. Do something about
numbers. And do something about design."
<<<
Straight talking John...and I hope uses that left hook to make sure they do
what he says. Or drives over them with his Jag fleet.
Mike Tomlinson
<kyli...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>Thanks for that. I've seen that site before. It seems very emotive in
>its commentary.
Indeed, and your view should be coloured accordingly. Though I suspect
that if you'd spent hundreds of thousands on a steaming pile of shite,
perhaps you'd be feeling emotional too. I think another poster's
suggestion that you talk to the neighbours surrounding the house you're
considering buying is a very good one.
Any newly built house is going to have problems - it's how the builder
handles the subsequent after-care that matters. Oh, and make sure your
new home hasn't been built on a flood plain.
http://www.wronglybuilthouses.co.uk/feedback1q04.html
--
A. Top posters.
Q. What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
KD
"IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote in message
news:c2gbh0$ii2$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
The usual load of snags + they forgot to lay floor coverings that we'd
paid for and were kind of relying upon (not a
'building' problem). Showers and baths blocked up with sewage. Bits of
unfinished brick work + loads of damaged items which are all in the process
of being finished/replaced after lots of arguing 6 months after moving in.
Lots of problems caused by 'subbies' who couldn't be arsed finishing the
job. We are currently having to involve the NHBC to sort out a drainage
problem that Bryant can't see :-(
Not the stuff of 'Homes from Hell' or whatever the TV programme is called
but I'd managed to convince myself it was going to be different this time.
Last time it was Barratt and just as bad though things were still being
fixed some 3 years after we'd moved in with them. I've started a site about
it at http://www.duckpark.dsl.pipex.com/bryant/bryanthistory.html but I've
tried to keep this brief so
have not mentioned a lot of the bog standard stuff. The website is nowhere
near finished but details the first few days and the current drainage issue.
Their customer service isn't as bad as some though.
Cheers,
Keith
Mike Mitchell
After reading the contents of your web site and reading your letter to
Bryant, I feel utterly dejected. That this kind of thing can be going
on is, well, there are no words to express how I feel. I tried
"unacceptable", I thought of synonyms. But none comes close to the
anger I feel over such shoddy, cavalier workmanship and attitude. It
gives Britain a thoroughly bad name to read about your litany of woes.
And, judging by the number of bathrooms, your house is no small house,
and I don't doubt was a very hefty outlay for yourselves.
I really do not know where to turn now. Okay, I asked for the
information, and, boy, you delivered! But I thought exactly as you
did, namely Bryant was one of the better house builders. Maybe your
house was an exception, but even without the sewage how can they
expect you to move in when the flooring hasn't even been laid and the
showers don't work? They could not possibly have given the house more
than a cursory inspection before handing it over. This is the kind of
work that got Jarvis a bad name.
Maybe I shall revert to buying secondhand, hoping to find a property
with vacant possession, because it seems a new house is one sure fire
way of bringing home a veritable nightmare of grief, and my mental
health just would not stand the kind of problems you have had to put
up with.
MM
KD
"Mike Mitchell" <kyli...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6hmp4097893d08923...@4ax.com...
Though we've had a pretty bad experience with them don't necessarily
dismiss them out of hand. Talk to a number of people who have already
bought and see how often they change their site management. Though we've
had a few 'niggles' with them, the Customer Services Dept. are a lot better
than some I could mention. We still believe we'll end up with the dream
house we wanted but a year later than planned. Bryant are presently working
hard to rectify all outstanding faults and are just putting up a fight about
the drainage. There are some odd design quirks but it just means that you
need to do a reasonable amount of leg work yourself to confirm what
everything will look like, especially outside - we had some pretty obvious
paths missing. The site doesn't yet detail 'The following weeks' where some
interesting things came to pass but I'll try to get that up to date soon as
it will detail a number of unexpected 'funnies' with the option buying
process.
The only way I'd be happy buying a new house now would be from builders with
their own, not subcontracted, staff building it. Up here it seems like Cala
are a good bet but I wouldn't know 'cos I can't afford one of their houses.
Keith
N. Thornton
> Maybe I shall revert to buying secondhand, hoping to find a property
> with vacant possession, because it seems a new house is one sure fire
> way of bringing home a veritable nightmare of grief, and my mental
> health just would not stand the kind of problems you have had to put
> up with.
If you run your own build project you can set the quality standards,
and spend what would be Bryants profit on bringing it upto decent
quality. But its a heck of a job.
Regards, NT
timegoesby
If buying a new house, visit the site about 3 times a week. Make notes
of snags and list them. Give the list to the site BCO and copy to the
site manager. Check if they do fix the problems and if they do not
contact the BCO direct. If they know you are on the ball they will
treat that house with caution.
Check that they have cleared the cavities of cement and that the roof
tiles are nailed down properly. They tend never to do these points
If the brickwork is poor as it is going up, then contact the BCO
immediately, so as to rectify the mess before it is too late. Check
cavity closers are fitted, walkboard in the loft from hatch to tank,
Also check that the garden does not have exessive clay or builders
rubbish under it. Another is that next doors water and gas pipes are
not running through your property. If it is then tell them to get it
off.
When signing for the house on the first day, write after your
signature "accepted but not fully inspected". They try and use that
signature that you have said all is well.
KD
"timegoesby" <timeg...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:88633746.04030...@posting.google.com...
Jolly good pointers. I'll stick 'em on my site not that anyone will ever
look at it again :-)
N. Thornton
> If buying a new house, visit the site about 3 times a week. Make notes
> of snags and list them. Give the list to the site BCO and copy to the
> site manager. Check if they do fix the problems and if they do not
> contact the BCO direct. If they know you are on the ball they will
> treat that house with caution.
>
> Check that they have cleared the cavities of cement and that the roof
> tiles are nailed down properly. They tend never to do these points
>
> If the brickwork is poor as it is going up, then contact the BCO
> immediately, so as to rectify the mess before it is too late. Check
> cavity closers are fitted, walkboard in the loft from hatch to tank,
> Also check that the garden does not have exessive clay or builders
> rubbish under it. Another is that next doors water and gas pipes are
> not running through your property. If it is then tell them to get it
> off.
I would expect they'd
a) ban you from the site
b) not carry out any significant requests, only attending to trivia to
try to appeas you for a few days.
But I have no experience on this so I'm guessing.
> When signing for the house on the first day, write after your
> signature "accepted but not fully inspected". They try and use that
> signature that you have said all is well.
I dont understand why people buy these houses at all. They offer no
obvious advantage over a used house, some fairly big risks, and a
higher price tag. If you really want to live on a newish estate, go
buy a house on one after its been completed and someone decides to
sell.
Regards, NT
Mike Mitchell
>I dont understand why people buy these houses at all. They offer no
>obvious advantage over a used house, some fairly big risks, and a
>higher price tag. If you really want to live on a newish estate, go
>buy a house on one after its been completed and someone decides to
>sell.
My only reason is to try and make the move as painless as possible.
Consider: I live in the south-east. I want to move to, say,
Lincolnshire. There are many, many occupied properties available
there, but most if not all will represent a chain of some kind. There
will in any case be a vendor, and vendors are notorious for changing
their minds, gazumping, pulling out altogether, and so on. Now, I
cannot easily just "pop by" to discuss problems face to face with the
estate agent and/or vendor of such a property. Everything would have
to be conducted by phone (since no one writes letters nowadays).
Now think of a new property. It's vacant for a start! You put a
deposit down and bingo. All problems are solved. Well, I don't know
about all of them, but you have to agree that the move is made
considerably easier by removing the chain completely and not having a
vendor to put a spanner in the works three days from exchange.
My intention was/is/undecided to move into the area by buying a new
property, and then at my leisure, maybe by bicycle, I could explore
the highways and byways locally in search of *the* secondhand property
*with vacant possession* that would be my heart's desire.
However, all of this goes rather pear-shaped when one learns that a
lot (most?) of the building going on is jerrybuilding in the extreme.
MM
Tony Bryer
> If buying a new house, visit the site about 3 times a week. Make
> notes of snags and list them. Give the list to the site BCO and
> copy to the site manager. Check if they do fix the problems and
> if they do not contact the BCO direct.
OK as far as it goes but the BCO can do nothing about non-Regs items
such as unlevel floors, badly fitting trim, poor paintwork,
electrics, c/h other than the boiler itself and a whole host of
other things.
IMM
> > If buying a new house, visit the site about 3 times a week. Make
> > notes of snags and list them. Give the list to the site BCO and
> > copy to the site manager. Check if they do fix the problems and
> > if they do not contact the BCO direct.
>
> OK as far as it goes but the BCO can do nothing about non-Regs items
> such as unlevel floors, badly fitting trim, poor paintwork,
> electrics, c/h other than the boiler itself and a whole host of
> other things.
I'm sure what he can do he will. Most BCOs don't have enough time to
inspect each house as they would like. Anyone who did a lot of the work for
him I'm sure would be welcome.
N. Thornton
You describe well the dream. But as you say, the reality is quite different.
IMM
Who saw watchdog on TV last night? Westbury homes never nailed any roof
tiles down on one site, which means probably most sites. An independent
surveyor says that all 60 houses must have their roofs checked and
rectified. Westbury said when confronted that they will only react to
individual complaints. So, the old lady who doesn't know and doesn't
contact Westbury, will have her roof blown off in the next gale.
Who is to blame for this sort of crap? What can the government do to stop
it?
Andy Hall
>
>
>Who saw watchdog on TV last night? Westbury homes never nailed any roof
>tiles down on one site, which means probably most sites. An independent
>surveyor says that all 60 houses must have their roofs checked and
>rectified. Westbury said when confronted that they will only react to
>individual complaints. So, the old lady who doesn't know and doesn't
>contact Westbury, will have her roof blown off in the next gale.
>
>Who is to blame for this sort of crap? What can the government do to stop
>it?
>
The government shouldn't do anything. They have far too big an
involvement in affairs that should not be their concern as it is.
People immediately suggesting that the government should "do
something" makes no sense.
The culprit is the construction firm and they should proactively check
all the roofs and fix them.
I suppose that the residents could call (jag+=2 && house +=3) and ask
him if he wouldn't mind going over and sticking one on the firm's
chairman.
.andy
To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
Jerry.
<snip>
> Who is to blame for this sort of crap? What can the government do to stop
> it?
>
Resign ?...
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:nh7m601tqksih9apu...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:01:22 +0100, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
> >Who saw watchdog on TV last night? Westbury homes never nailed any roof
> >tiles down on one site, which means probably most sites. An independent
> >surveyor says that all 60 houses must have their roofs checked and
> >rectified. Westbury said when confronted that they will only react to
> >individual complaints. So, the old lady who doesn't know and doesn't
> >contact Westbury, will have her roof blown off in the next gale.
> >
> >Who is to blame for this sort of crap? What can the government do to
stop
> >it?
> The government shouldn't do anything.
> They have far too big an involvement in
> affairs that should not be their concern as it is.
>
> People immediately suggesting that the
> government should "do
> something" makes no sense.
You else do they turn to? The Mafia?
When widespread cowboyism is about, only the government and its agencies can
step in to stop it and protect the public.
> The culprit is the construction firm and
> they should proactively check
> all the roofs and fix them.
They will not.
> I suppose that the residents could call
> (jag+=2 && house +=3) and ask
> him if he wouldn't mind going over and
> sticking one on the firm's chairman.
Sometimes you do come out with some good suggestions.
IMM
"Jerry." <use...@scarts.f9.co.uk> wrote in message
news:DKFac.26295$h44.3...@stones.force9.net...
Declare war on Syria?
Mike Mitchell
>Who saw watchdog on TV last night? Westbury homes never nailed any roof
>tiles down on one site, which means probably most sites. An independent
>surveyor says that all 60 houses must have their roofs checked and
>rectified. Westbury said when confronted that they will only react to
>individual complaints. So, the old lady who doesn't know and doesn't
>contact Westbury, will have her roof blown off in the next gale.
And there was I thinking that Westbury were quality builders! First
Bryant, now Westbury. Charles Church, anyone? Maybe the only quality
home one can get in Britain today is if one builds it oneself by
commissioning an architect and a local builder with a known reputation
to maintain. (Like one's own mini version of Grand Designs.)
MM
Andy Hall
>
>
>You else do they turn to? The Mafia?
>
>When widespread cowboyism is about, only the government and its agencies can
>step in to stop it and protect the public.
Don't be silly.
The public is perfectly capable of protecting itself with the simple
provision of law.
>
>> The culprit is the construction firm and
>> they should proactively check
>> all the roofs and fix them.
>
>They will not.
The inevitable will happen and they will arrive in court.
>
>> I suppose that the residents could call
>> (jag+=2 && house +=3) and ask
>> him if he wouldn't mind going over and
>> sticking one on the firm's chairman.
>
>Sometimes you do come out with some good suggestions.
>
I know....
Hugo Nebula
"IMM" <abus...@easy.com> randomly hit the keyboard and produced:
>Who is to blame for this sort of crap?
The Conservatives with their part-privatisation of the Building
Control sector and the subsequent lowering of inspection standards
(aka the NHBC).
--
Hugo Nebula
"The fact that no-one on the internet wants a piece of this
shows you just how far you've strayed from the pack".
IMM
"Hugo Nebula" <ab...@local.host> wrote in message
news:vven60td22t2j4jh2...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:01:22 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named
> "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> randomly hit the keyboard and produced:
>
> >Who is to blame for this sort of crap?
>
> The Conservatives with their part-privatisation of the Building
> Control sector and the subsequent lowering of inspection standards
> (aka the NHBC).
That arsehole Thatcher had to be behind this.
Tony Bryer
wrote:
> >Who is to blame for this sort of crap?
>
> The Conservatives with their part-privatisation of the Building
> Control sector and the subsequent lowering of inspection standards
> (aka the NHBC).
When I was a BCO we would probably (but not necessarily) have carried
out an inspection when the roof trusses were in place before felting
and then on completion. There is no way that unfixed roof tiles would
have been picked up. This is what the site agent is there to oversee.
When we were short staffed roofs were not inspected at all on the
basis that it was not a notifiable stage of work.
IMM
> In article <vven60td22t2j4jh2...@4ax.com>, Hugo Nebula
> wrote:
> > >Who is to blame for this sort of crap?
> >
> > The Conservatives with their part-privatisation of the Building
> > Control sector and the subsequent lowering of inspection standards
> > (aka the NHBC).
>
> When I was a BCO we would probably (but not necessarily) have carried
> out an inspection when the roof trusses were in place before felting
> and then on completion. There is no way that unfixed roof tiles would
> have been picked up. This is what the site agent is there to oversee.
> When we were short staffed roofs were not inspected at all on the
> basis that it was not a notifiable stage of work.
There is one remarkable point about global warming in the UK. Wind speeds
are getting higher. Many of these un-nailed roofs will come off that is for
sure. It should be the BCO's responsibility to see tiles are nailed down.
The site agents are on bonus's to get the site sold and out of the way ASAP,
he does care what the hell is wrong with the houses as long as he hits
timescale and budget.
Neil Jones
> There is one remarkable point about global warming in the UK. Wind
speeds
> are getting higher.
I wouldn't worry about that - the amount of energy the UK seems to
expect to take from wind generation will soon get the gales under
control.
Bob Eager
That may be true, but "Two arseholes" Prescott is doing pretty well,
too....
--
Bob Eager
begin by not using Outlook Express...
IMM
"Bob Eager" <rd...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:176uZD2KcidF-p...@rikki.tavi.co.uk...
He is doing a decent job at kicking arses.
Owain
| The public is perfectly capable of protecting itself with
| the simple provision of law.
However it's the govt who provide the law.
AIUI there are no legal requirements of quality or fitness for purpose etc
that a house has to satisfy. Sale of Goods legislation doesn't apply to
houses.
It's obvious that council Building Control officers, NHBC inspections and
the like do not enforce the Building Regs on large sites adequately,
otherwise there would not be 60 houses with no nails on the tiles. As Tony
Bryer later wrote,
There is no way that unfixed roof tiles would
have been picked up. This is what the site agent
is there to oversee.
When we were short staffed roofs were not inspected
at all on the basis that it was not a notifiable
stage of work.
Once the builder has the completion certificate / building warrant issued by
the council, whether issued incorrectly or not, he can say that he has
fulfilled his part of the contract and the law. Anything that comes to light
after snagging has been completed and the building accepted by the purchaser
has then to be settled through dispute resolution and ultimately the courts.
If the law provided customers with a guarantee that building work complied
with Building Regs, and the onus was on the builder to disprove any claim,
(the building warrant not being accepted as proof) for say six months, the
consumer would be in a much stronger position. Such a law wouldn't be
onerous to any reasonable and conscientious builder.
Owain
Jerry.
Jerry.
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:14:09 +0100, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
> >You else do they turn to? The Mafia?
> >
> >When widespread cowboyism is about, only the government and its agencies
can
> >step in to stop it and protect the public.
>
> Don't be silly.
>
> The public is perfectly capable of protecting itself with the simple
> provision of law.
>
Idiots can't though, and that is why IMM needs help from HMG.
IMM
Silly lad!
Jerry.
>
<snip>
>
> Silly lad!
>
Yes you are IMM, very !...