RAAC?

[Owain Lastname]

Looking at the Dept of Education for Reinforced Aerated Autoclaved Concrete (RAAC) it suggests that preliminary identification is:

- concrete planks about 2' wide
- pale grey or white colour
- v-bevelled edges
- soft enough that a screwdriver can be pushed in with moderate force

I have a top floor ex-council flat built c. 1970, 3 storey, flat roofed building.

The structural ceiling is exposed in service cupboards off the stairs:

https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:RAAC1.jpg
https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:RAAC2.jpg

Does the team think this is RAAC? This is only holding up the flat felted roof.

Fairly sure the lower floor flats have similar ceilings; of course their concrete planks might be stronger.

Looks like I might be moving sooner than I thought.

Owain

[Andrew]

As long as the roofing felt has never leaked then I wouldn't
worry too much about any collapse. The photos suggest that
there is no cracking or signs of lumps coming away. I would
have thought that residential buildings were subject to higher
standards than those applied to buildings where people were
not present overnight.

If it is RAAC then your flat is now unsaleable or rentable
anyway :-(.

When was the roof last re-felted ?. Building regs updates
in 2008 require all replacement flat roofs to be insulated.
Do you know it this was ever done to your block ?

[Owain Lastname]

On Sunday, 10 September 2023 at 11:37:37 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
> As long as the roofing felt has never leaked then I wouldn't
> worry too much about any collapse.

Other parts of the roof have had repeated/persistent leaks go unrepaired for months, but I don't have easy access to those parts. Fortunately I don't live under that side of the building.

> When was the roof last re-felted ?.

1987 (30 Year Projected Life)

Should I start buying shares in Acrow as they may prove to be a better investment?

Owain

[Andrew]

On 10/09/2023 12:24, Owain Lastname wrote:
> On Sunday, 10 September 2023 at 11:37:37 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
>> As long as the roofing felt has never leaked then I wouldn't
>> worry too much about any collapse.
>
> Other parts of the roof have had repeated/persistent leaks go unrepaired for months, but I don't have easy access to those parts. Fortunately I don't live under that side of the building.
>
>> When was the roof last re-felted ?.
>
> 1987 (30 Year Projected Life)

Overdue for replacement (and insulation) then. Have the
leaks occurred since 1987 ?. If so, it might have been
a cowboy job (mates of a councillor) and should have been
replaced much before 30 years.

If it is possible to gain access to this roof via a stairway
then it is possible that an aerial installer or similar
tradespeople have been up there and caused the damage (sorry
Bill).

[Owain Lastname]

On Sunday, 10 September 2023 at 12:52:37 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
> > 1987 (30 Year Projected Life)
> Overdue for replacement (and insulation) then. Have the
> leaks occurred since 1987 ?. If so, it might have been
> a cowboy job (mates of a councillor) and should have been
> replaced much before 30 years.

Leaks are repeated in some places, but the council doesn't respond until 6+ months later so parts of the roof could be pretty soggy by now.

We suspect the council have been deliberately running down maintenance for years as they want to demolish the whole estate. I've seen the 'secret' plans for the redevelopment. We're also overdue new windows, external render, possible insulation, etc. Some of the blocks still don't have security entry.

If this is RAAC then demolition might occur even sooner than the council plan.

The estate is slightly more than 50% privately owned.

> If it is possible to gain access to this roof via a stairway
> then it is possible that an aerial installer or similar
> tradespeople have been up there and caused the damage (sorry
> Bill).

AFAIK the only people up there are the council staff and contractors, but that doesn't mean much.

If anyone wonders why I bought this, there are limited opportunities to get a 3-bed flat for under £50k and it was all I could afford at the time.

Owain

[Brian Gaff]

What I don't understand is why this material was ever used for structurally
important work, Its quite clear that concrete is only strong in compression
and this particular sort is mainly for decorative use. I don't care what
sort of building it is, its not supposed to be designed for load bearing. If
you want a strong concrete, you have normal concrete with rebar tensioned in
it so the concrete is compressed by that even when weight is on the
structure horizontally.
Maybe the builders never saw the demonstrations back in the day on the Open
University tv channels that I did.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Andrew" <Andr...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:udk69c$hs8c$1...@dont-email.me...

[Tricky Dicky]

Chris Hogg <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 09:59:13 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
> <brian...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What I don't understand is why this material was ever used for structurally
>> important work, Its quite clear that concrete is only strong in compression
>> and this particular sort is mainly for decorative use. I don't care what
>> sort of building it is, its not supposed to be designed for load bearing. If
>> you want a strong concrete, you have normal concrete with rebar tensioned in
>> it so the concrete is compressed by that even when weight is on the
>> structure horizontally.
>> Maybe the builders never saw the demonstrations back in the day on the Open
>> University tv channels that I did.
>> Brian
>
>

> I believe much of this RAAC has rebar running through it. If rebar
> gets wet it will rust, expand and crack and split whatever it's
> contained in, whether frothy concrete like this stuff or solid
> concrete, witness the 'solid' concrete posts that held the chain-link
> fencing that bordered my garden and installed in the 1950's, that have
> disintegrated and now all had to be replaced.
>
> It does seem to me that the building industry is inadequately
> regulated or monitored. First the Grenfell Tower disaster, now this.
>

There was also the high alumina concrete back in the 70’s that just turned
into mud.

[charles]

In article <h8otfi1jctg40b9ie...@4ax.com>, Chris Hogg

<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 09:59:13 +0100, "Brian Gaff" <brian...@gmail.com>
> wrote:

> >What I don't understand is why this material was ever used for
> >structurally important work, Its quite clear that concrete is only
> >strong in compression and this particular sort is mainly for decorative
> >use. I don't care what sort of building it is, its not supposed to be
> >designed for load bearing. If you want a strong concrete, you have
> >normal concrete with rebar tensioned in it so the concrete is compressed
> >by that even when weight is on the structure horizontally. Maybe the
> >builders never saw the demonstrations back in the day on the Open
> >University tv channels that I did. Brian

> I believe much of this RAAC has rebar running through it.

Indeed, Isn't the R of REBAR for "Reinforced"

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4t้ฒ
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Clive Arthur]

On 11/09/2023 12:56, Tricky Dicky wrote:

<snip>

>
> There was also the high alumina concrete back in the 70’s that just turned
> into mud.
>

And Mundic in Cornwall, Mica in Eire.

--
Cheers
Clive

[Owain Lastname]

On Monday, 11 September 2023 at 09:59:20 UTC+1, Brian Gaff wrote:
> What I don't understand is why this material was ever used for structurally
> important work,

(a) it's cheap
(b) it's lightweight, so the rest of the structure can be cheaper too

Builders never watched Open University which was on BBC2; they watched ITV and the most mathematically advanced programme on that was adding up the darts scores on Bullseye.

Article from 12 June 1959 – Wishaw Press – Costain Concrete Co Ltd will manufacture Siporex in Scotland from early 1960.

Siporex is a lightweight autoclaved aerated structural material with high thermal insulation value and low shrinkage and moisture movement. It is non-combustible, almost white and its density is about one-fifth that of normal concrete. Siporex will be manufactured as building blocks, storey high partition slabs, vertical and horizontal wall slabs, roof and floor slabs of a standard width of 24″ and up to 20′ lengths. Units other than blocks will be reinforced with mild steel. The accuracy and large sizes of the slabs allow simple finishes and virtually all dry construction. Siporex is synonymous with simple. rapid and cost-saving erection techniques.

Seven cost savings with Siporex.

1. Competes favourably in price with other building materials for the same purposes.
2. Provides its own insulation while functioning as a structural material.
3. Saves in field labour as it requires fewer man-hours to install.
4. Saves in structural framework because of its lightweight.
5. Speeds up construction schedule, being a dry, prefabricated unit.
6. Requires a minimum of surface treatment as it is smooth and white.
7. Needs no heavy machinery to be set in place.

... it bears a structural similarity to a certain well-known brand of aerated chocolate. Siporex is only one-fifth the weight of conventional concrete but couples high strength with its lightness. As an advertising pamphlet states: ” It is as light as wood but has the characteristics of stone and is incombustible. Siporex can be nailed, cut, sawn, drilled and chased with woodworking tools.

https://www.scottishbrickhistory.co.uk/costain-concrete-co-ltd-newarthill-north-lanarkshire/

Owain

[Theo]

Owain Lastname <spuorg...@gowanhill.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 11 September 2023 at 09:59:20 UTC+1, Brian Gaff wrote:
> > What I don't understand is why this material was ever used for structurally
> > important work,
>
> (a) it's cheap
> (b) it's lightweight, so the rest of the structure can be cheaper too
>
> Builders never watched Open University which was on BBC2; they watched ITV
> and the most mathematically advanced programme on that was adding up the
> darts scores on Bullseye.

It's theoretically a good idea... the problem they didn't think about was
the matrix acting like a sponge and holding water next to the rebar.

I was wondering whether any of these were RAAC:
https://modernmooch.com/2020/07/08/concrete-garages/

For the whole 'put up a garage in a weekend' movement it would have been
ideal.

I have tested mine and I can't dig a point into the panels, so I'm guessing
this one isn't.

Theo

[Owain Lastname]

On Monday, 11 September 2023 at 17:18:38 UTC+1, Theo wrote:
> I was wondering whether any of these were RAAC:
> https://modernmooch.com/2020/07/08/concrete-garages/
> For the whole 'put up a garage in a weekend' movement it would have been
> ideal.

S Wernick & Sons Ltd (row 4 column 1) (garages from £72 and 12 shillings) have gone on to greater things, and look to profit from providing modular and temporary schools and other buildings.

https://www.wernick.co.uk/about/history/

Owain

[Adrian Caspersz]

On 10/09/2023 10:28, Owain Lastname wrote:

> Looking at the Dept of Education for Reinforced Aerated Autoclaved Concrete (RAAC) it suggests that preliminary identification is:
>
> - concrete planks about 2' wide
> - pale grey or white colour
> - v-bevelled edges
> - soft enough that a screwdriver can be pushed in with moderate force

Without the iron and roofing use, this sounds like something called
breeze block?

Many walls are built with that, and common now is the use of expansion
gaps and apparently a compatible mortar mix. I'm now looking at an
inside wall crack in my eighties built extension.


The Ugly Truth About Reinforced Aerated Autoclaved Concrete (RAAC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4wOH5g_yzQ


--
Adrian C

[charles]

In article <km8ued...@mid.individual.net>, Adrian Caspersz

<em...@here.invalid> wrote:
> On 10/09/2023 10:28, Owain Lastname wrote:
> > Looking at the Dept of Education for Reinforced Aerated Autoclaved
> > Concrete (RAAC) it suggests that preliminary identification is:
> >
> > - concrete planks about 2' wide - pale grey or white colour -
> > v-bevelled edges - soft enough that a screwdriver can be pushed in with
> > moderate force

> Without the iron and roofing use, this sounds like something called
> breeze block?

> Many walls are built with that, and common now is the use of expansion
> gaps and apparently a compatible mortar mix. I'm now looking at an
> inside wall crack in my eighties built extension.

I've one in my 1970's extension. I didn't own the house then. The blocks
are Thermalite - not Breeze.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 11/09/2023 18:45, charles wrote:
> In article <km8ued...@mid.individual.net>, Adrian Caspersz
> <em...@here.invalid> wrote:
>> On 10/09/2023 10:28, Owain Lastname wrote:
>>> Looking at the Dept of Education for Reinforced Aerated Autoclaved
>>> Concrete (RAAC) it suggests that preliminary identification is:
>>>
>>> - concrete planks about 2' wide - pale grey or white colour -
>>> v-bevelled edges - soft enough that a screwdriver can be pushed in with
>>> moderate force
>
>> Without the iron and roofing use, this sounds like something called
>> breeze block?
>
>> Many walls are built with that, and common now is the use of expansion
>> gaps and apparently a compatible mortar mix. I'm now looking at an
>> inside wall crack in my eighties built extension.
>
> I've one in my 1970's extension. I didn't own the house then. The blocks
> are Thermalite - not Breeze.
>

Breeze was coal fly ash. not much of that around any more

--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

[Theo]

Adrian Caspersz <em...@here.invalid> wrote:
> On 10/09/2023 10:28, Owain Lastname wrote:
> > Looking at the Dept of Education for Reinforced Aerated Autoclaved Concrete (RAAC) it suggests that preliminary identification is:
> >
> > - concrete planks about 2' wide
> > - pale grey or white colour
> > - v-bevelled edges
> > - soft enough that a screwdriver can be pushed in with moderate force
>
> Without the iron and roofing use, this sounds like something called
> breeze block?
>
> Many walls are built with that, and common now is the use of expansion
> gaps and apparently a compatible mortar mix. I'm now looking at an
> inside wall crack in my eighties built extension.

I would have thought the aerated concrete itself is fine, it's the
interaction between it and rebar that causes the problem?

IANA structural engineer but I think breeze blocks are ok in compression (as
walls) but you don't use them in tension (for ceilings, joists, lintels).
The idea with RAAC was it was reinforced so you could.

Theo

[Tim+]

Breeze block ≠ aerated concrete.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

[me9]

Tim+ <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Breeze block ≠ aerated concrete.
>
Thermalite or celcon blocks are, widely used as better u value.

--
braind

[Tim Streater]

On 11 Sep 2023 at 18:55:46 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"

<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 11/09/2023 18:45, charles wrote:
>> In article <km8ued...@mid.individual.net>, Adrian Caspersz
>> <em...@here.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 10/09/2023 10:28, Owain Lastname wrote:
>>>> Looking at the Dept of Education for Reinforced Aerated Autoclaved
>>>> Concrete (RAAC) it suggests that preliminary identification is:
>>>>
>>>> - concrete planks about 2' wide - pale grey or white colour -
>>>> v-bevelled edges - soft enough that a screwdriver can be pushed in with
>>>> moderate force
>>
>>> Without the iron and roofing use, this sounds like something called
>>> breeze block?
>>
>>> Many walls are built with that, and common now is the use of expansion
>>> gaps and apparently a compatible mortar mix. I'm now looking at an
>>> inside wall crack in my eighties built extension.
>>
>> I've one in my 1970's extension. I didn't own the house then. The blocks
>> are Thermalite - not Breeze.
>>
> Breeze was coal fly ash. not much of that around any more

Probably just as well. Coal contains uranium at about one part per million, so
coal ash is a bit radioactive.

--
"What causes poverty?" Wrong question. Poverty is our primordial state. The real question is, "What causes wealth?"

Hint: it ain't Socialism.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 11/09/2023 21:40, Tim Streater wrote:
> On 11 Sep 2023 at 18:55:46 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
> <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Breeze was coal fly ash. not much of that around any more
>
> Probably just as well. Coal contains uranium at about one part per million, so
> coal ash is a bit radioactive.
>

So are you. And so is everything.



--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

Dennis Miller

[Owain Lastname]

On Tuesday, 12 September 2023 at 07:27:27 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> > coal ash is a bit radioactive.
> So are you. And so is everything.

If I glowed like the ReadyBrek kid I could save money on heating....

Owain

[Animal]

Sounds great. I'll redo my flat roof with it :)
It occurred to me that if painted with bitumen on 3 sides (not the bottom) it should last fine.

[Andrew Gabriel]

On 11/09/2023 09:59, Brian Gaff wrote:
> What I don't understand is why this material was ever used for structurally
> important work, Its quite clear that concrete is only strong in compression
> and this particular sort is mainly for decorative use. I don't care what
> sort of building it is, its not supposed to be designed for load bearing. If
> you want a strong concrete, you have normal concrete with rebar tensioned in
> it so the concrete is compressed by that even when weight is on the
> structure horizontally.
> Maybe the builders never saw the demonstrations back in the day on the Open
> University tv channels that I did.
> Brian
>

Many commercial buildings of that area were only built with an expected
life of 30 years. Particularly offices, the layout, sizing, etc usually
became inappropriate after that length of time when usage was expected
to change. In contrast, residential buildings were traditionally built
with a 200 year expected life. It was an architect that told me that
which came as quite a surprise, but then I saw many companies pulling
down and rebuilding their offices at around 30 years old, for exactly
that reason, so what he said fitted perfectly.

--
Andrew

[RJH]

On 15 Sep 2023 at 22:48:11 BST, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

> On 11/09/2023 09:59, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> What I don't understand is why this material was ever used for structurally
>> important work, Its quite clear that concrete is only strong in compression
>> and this particular sort is mainly for decorative use. I don't care what
>> sort of building it is, its not supposed to be designed for load bearing. If
>> you want a strong concrete, you have normal concrete with rebar tensioned in
>> it so the concrete is compressed by that even when weight is on the
>> structure horizontally.
>> Maybe the builders never saw the demonstrations back in the day on the Open
>> University tv channels that I did.
>> Brian
>>
>
> Many commercial buildings of that area were only built with an expected
> life of 30 years. Particularly offices, the layout, sizing, etc usually
> became inappropriate after that length of time when usage was expected
> to change. In contrast, residential buildings were traditionally built
> with a 200 year expected life.

Maybe traditional brick built. I could be wrong, but from memory the system
built council housing of the 50s-70s had a design life in line with the public
works loan term - usually around 60 years.

Similarly, public buildings (mainly, roads, schools and hospitals) built under
PFI. The PFI company would hand the building back at the end of the PFI
contract so, crudely, they had no reason to build anything that would last
beyond that term (25ish years for schools). They just had to make sure their
contract was tight enough to ensure no big costs would crop up during the
term. Something they proved pretty good at doing at the time, although the PFI
model is pretty much a busted flush nowadays.

> It was an architect that told me that
> which came as quite a surprise, but then I saw many companies pulling
> down and rebuilding their offices at around 30 years old, for exactly
> that reason, so what he said fitted perfectly.

Maybe commercial buildings had/have similar funding and contract arrangements.
Once the design return has been achieved, the uncertainty of future repair and
maintenance can be dialled out with the use of an end date for the building.
So by extension, the build quality would reflect an anticipated 30 year life.

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

[Owain Lastname]

On Sunday, 10 September 2023 at 10:28:40 UTC+1, Owain Lastname wrote:
> Looking at the Dept of Education for Reinforced Aerated Autoclaved Concrete (RAAC) it suggests that preliminary identification is:
> - concrete planks about 2' wide
> - pale grey or white colour
> - v-bevelled edges
> - soft enough that a screwdriver can be pushed in with moderate force
> I have a top floor ex-council flat built c. 1970, 3 storey, flat roofed building.

> https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:RAAC1.jpg
> https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:RAAC2.jpg
> Does the team think this is RAAC? This is only holding up the flat felted roof.

An area of the ceiling has been opened up. This has been subject to long-standing water leaks and the black thing is the saturated, spngy and mould-ridden batten for the plasterboard.

https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/4/49/Raac3.jpg

It doesn't look in very good condition, does it? Call insurer or structural engineer?

Anyone got a cheap caravan in Central Scotland?

Owain

[Theo]

Owain Lastname <spuorg...@gowanhill.com> wrote:
> An area of the ceiling has been opened up. This has been subject to
> long-standing water leaks and the black thing is the saturated, spngy and
> mould-ridden batten for the plasterboard.
>
> https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/4/49/Raac3.jpg
>
> It doesn't look in very good condition, does it? Call insurer or
> structural engineer?

IANA SE but it doesn't look happy. I think a structural engineer (to
establish the condition, the urgency and potential remedial works) and a
lawyer (to establish whose responsibility this is) would be in order.
I can't see how calling the insurer would help until those things are
established.

(if the SE says you have to move out urgently, then time to call your
insurer)

> Anyone got a cheap caravan in Central Scotland?

:-(

I suspect trying the council housing waiting list might just put you back in
the same block :-(

Theo

[Fredxx]

On 11/09/2023 09:59, Brian Gaff wrote:

> What I don't understand is why this material was ever used for structurally
> important work, Its quite clear that concrete is only strong in compression
> and this particular sort is mainly for decorative use.

That is true for all reinforced concrete. Rebar is only necessary in
areas of tension. The issue with RAAC is that it was used extensively
with rebar.

[Fredxx]

On 16/09/2023 13:22, Theo wrote:
> Owain Lastname <spuorg...@gowanhill.com> wrote:
>> An area of the ceiling has been opened up. This has been subject to
>> long-standing water leaks and the black thing is the saturated, spngy and
>> mould-ridden batten for the plasterboard.
>>
>> https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/4/49/Raac3.jpg
>>
>> It doesn't look in very good condition, does it? Call insurer or
>> structural engineer?
>
> IANA SE but it doesn't look happy. I think a structural engineer (to
> establish the condition, the urgency and potential remedial works) and a
> lawyer (to establish whose responsibility this is) would be in order.
> I can't see how calling the insurer would help until those things are
> established.
>
> (if the SE says you have to move out urgently, then time to call your
> insurer)

I might not change insurer in the mean time either. Just in case there
is any complication over cover.

[RJH]

I'd ask around locally and see if anyone else knows anything. Have a look at
your lease and see if it ascribes liability. It should set out what happens in
cases like this - after all, the roof was going to need doing at some point
anyway.

Once you've found out a bit more I'd try and organise the residents/tenants
under the affected roof/s. It's not just your roof. Then, if you can manage to
speak with one voice, the landlord.

[Robin]

Apologies in advance if you have already dealt with it but the little I
ever knew about such things in Scotland (knowledge which has lasted even
less well than your ceiling) prompts the question whether the ceiling is
(a) your responsibility as a top floor property or (b) the
responsibility of everyone in the block (whether or not it is owned in
common).

And FWLIW either way I'd suggest your insurer as your first point of
contact. First, they may want to argue it's for the factor to sort and
do so without you conceding any ground. Second, they may want to
appoint their own surveyor and refuse to meet the cost of someone you
engage.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 16/09/2023 12:09, Owain Lastname wrote:

> An area of the ceiling has been opened up. This has been subject to long-standing water leaks and the black thing is the saturated, spngy and mould-ridden batten for the plasterboard.
>
> https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/4/49/Raac3.jpg
>
> It doesn't look in very good condition, does it? Call insurer or structural engineer?
>
> Anyone got a cheap caravan in Central Scotland?
>
> Owain

I missed the OP.
Is this upper floor or lower floor?

Whatever, total replacement is probably the best solution.
Without knowing the history cant say whether an insurance clainm is on.
Any competent builder should be able to sort it out: You might want to
alert the building control people to make sure it gets done properly

"When in doubt, rip it out"

--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

[Owain Lastname]

On Saturday, 16 September 2023 at 14:55:07 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 16/09/2023 12:09, Owain Lastname wrote:
> I missed the OP.
> Is this upper floor or lower floor?

Top floor (soffit of the roof).

> Whatever, total replacement is probably the best solution.
> Without knowing the history cant say whether an insurance clainm is on.
> Any competent builder should be able to sort it out: You might want to
> alert the building control people to make sure it gets done properly

The block was built by the council c. 1968-70
The block is majority owned by the council.
The block is factored and maintained by the council.
(Building control would also be the council.)

Owain

[wrights...@f2s.com]

On Sunday, 10 September 2023 at 12:52:37 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:

> If it is possible to gain access to this roof via a stairway
> then it is possible that an aerial installer or similar
> tradespeople have been up there and caused the damage (sorry
> Bill).
No, you're right. I used to see such damage frequently.
Bill

[The Natural Philosopher]

I would say that then your contract is with the council, and whether or
not they invoke insurance is not your problem.
Clearly you have a health issue with all that and you are within your
rights to withhold rent until the problem is fixed. Or do you 'part own' it?
In which case a lawyer might be indicated.


--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson

[Owain Lastname]

On Saturday, 16 September 2023 at 22:13:29 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> I would say that then your contract is with the council, and whether or
> not they invoke insurance is not your problem.
> Clearly you have a health issue with all that and you are within your
> rights to withhold rent until the problem is fixed. Or do you 'part own' it?
> In which case a lawyer might be indicated.

I fully own my flat, and 1/12th of the common parts of the building.

Owain

[The Natural Philosopher]

Ah. That is a bugger then. Lawyer first, then armed with your rights,
the council

> Owain
>

--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

[Fredxx]

On 17/09/2023 12:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 17/09/2023 11:51, Owain Lastname wrote:
>> On Saturday, 16 September 2023 at 22:13:29 UTC+1, The Natural
>> Philosopher wrote:
>>> I would say that then your contract is with the council, and whether or
>>> not they invoke insurance is not your problem.
>>> Clearly you have a health issue with all that and you are within your
>>> rights to withhold rent until the problem is fixed. Or do you 'part
>>> own' it?
>>> In which case a lawyer might be indicated.
>>
>> I fully own my flat, and 1/12th of the common parts of the building.
>>
> Ah. That is a bugger then. Lawyer first, then armed with your rights,
> the council

I would say insurer first. Plus it's cheaper. If the insurance company
knew that the OP had an issue with the roof and had already gone to
third parties to investigate there is a small risk they will walk away
if told months later.

[Fredxx]

On 17/09/2023 11:51, Owain Lastname wrote:

Does the wording in the "common parts" deeds say who is responsible for
the roof?

[Owain Lastname]

On Sunday, 17 September 2023 at 13:22:49 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
> > I fully own my flat, and 1/12th of the common parts of the building.
> Does the wording in the "common parts" deeds say who is responsible for
> the roof?

Fairly sure it's 1/12th but it might be per rateable value, which will nearly be 1/12th anyway.

Owain

[Fredxx]

Is there an association or entity associated with the common area? That
you are all shareholders of, or similar arrangement?

[Robin]

On 17/09/2023 13:34, Owain Lastname wrote:

JOOI do your deeds make clear that the roof is one of the common parts
or is that the result of the 2004 Act?

[Robin]

On 17/09/2023 12:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 17/09/2023 11:51, Owain Lastname wrote:
>> On Saturday, 16 September 2023 at 22:13:29 UTC+1, The Natural
>> Philosopher wrote:
>>> I would say that then your contract is with the council, and whether or
>>> not they invoke insurance is not your problem.
>>> Clearly you have a health issue with all that and you are within your
>>> rights to withhold rent until the problem is fixed. Or do you 'part
>>> own' it?
>>> In which case a lawyer might be indicated.
>>
>> I fully own my flat, and 1/12th of the common parts of the building.
>>
> Ah. That is a bugger then. Lawyer first, then armed with your rights,
> the council
>

If every owner is responsible for a share of the cost of repairing the
roof (including the RAAC) - under the deeds alone or with the 2004 Act -
I don't see a need for a lawyer now. Maybe later - much later - if some
turn out not to be insured and won't pay. Bu then that'd be action in
jointly with other owners

Telling the insurance company a.s.a.p. is just standard practice so they
can't complain later they weren't given a chance to intervene.

And of course tell the council - possibly both their factor hat and
their owner hat.

And possibly also tell other private owners in the block so they can
tell their insurers if the factor can't be trusted to do that promptly..

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 17/09/2023 15:50, Robin wrote:
> Telling the insurance company a.s.a.p. is just standard practice so they
> can't complain later they weren't given a chance to intervene.

Be careful.

Once you invoke the Powers That Be, it can have unexpected consequences.

E.g a neighbour had a concreted in oil pipe to his country kitchen Aga.
Buried in the screed.

It sprang a leak and emptied 1000 litres of kerosene under the house.
He told the insurance company, who agreed to fix it, but informed the
council, who sent round a health and safety cunt who declared the whole
house not fit for habitation until the whole floor had been dug up, down
to about 2 meters to make sure all the oil soaked clay was removed.

18 months later they moved back in. The house has been for sale for
several years but never seems to get as far as exchange of contracts.

When I was removing my rusty old oil tank I accidentally spilt a hundred
litres or so into the property boundary. It smelt a bit and killed
everything for a couple of feet, for a couple of years. Then it all
evaporated.

I refer you to this truism

http://vps.templar.co.uk/Cartoons%20and%20Politics/GBU.png

--
Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
Mark Twain

[Robin]

Fair cop in that I'd assumed Owain would want the insurance to cover his
share of the cost of repairs rather than raid his moneybox.

But I'm unclear how the roof can be fixed without the council knowing
given they own a chunk of it and are the factor.

[Owain Lastname]

On Sunday, 17 September 2023 at 13:37:16 UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
> Is there an association or entity associated with the common area? That
> you are all shareholders of, or similar arrangement?

No. This is Scotland.

Owain

[Owain Lastname]

On Sunday, 17 September 2023 at 17:55:46 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
> Fair cop in that I'd assumed Owain would want the insurance to cover his
> share of the cost of repairs rather than raid his moneybox.
> But I'm unclear how the roof can be fixed without the council knowing
> given they own a chunk of it and are the factor.

Exactly.

And to be honest we may be lucky if it is ONLY the roof.

Decant the occupants, lift the concrete planks, erect a steel frame and flat-to-pitch roof conversion over it, insulate and plasterboard, replace all the wiring, redecorate and clean, and I can move back in :)

If it's the intermediate floors as well, I don't see how those can be replaced.

If the council do declare the block immediately uninhabitable they've got to rehouse 50 of their tenants (families not persons) and up to another 50 private owners and tenants too, just on this street.

We may live in interesting times.

Owain

[Andrew]

Any concrete panel, lintel, or flooring panel is liable to
sudden and immediate failure without added reinforcement on
the side that is being 'stretched' as a load is applied.

QED, the type of concrete is not the issue, it is how the
structure meets the design loading and whether it is
protected from the weather (which is an issue with flat
roofs).

[Andrew]

On 16/09/2023 12:09, Owain Lastname wrote:

Jim has (had) one

[Andrew]

On 17/09/2023 11:51, Owain Lastname wrote:

But in the event of expensive repairs you will end up paying
a lot more than 1/12th of the bill because you will be a cash
cow to subsidise the tenants (who pay nothing).

[Robin]

The tenants pay nothing because it's the owner's liability - in their
case the council.

[Owain Lastname]

But it's true that the council do nothing inexpensively.

Cheaply, often. But not inexpensively.

Anyway: structural engineer been. The roof *is* RAAC, the intermediate floors probably aren't.

Struct Engr in contact with council about what to do. I'll be phoning insurer later.

In the meantime I'm glad I didn't go wild with the chandeliers.

Owain

[Andrew]

On 20/09/2023 09:29, Owain Lastname wrote:
> On Tuesday, 19 September 2023 at 20:20:11 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
>> On 19/09/2023 19:54, Andrew wrote:
>>> But in the event of expensive repairs you will end up paying
>>> a lot more than 1/12th of the bill because you will be a cash
>>> cow to subsidise the tenants (who pay nothing).
>> The tenants pay nothing because it's the owner's liability - in their
>> case the council.
>
> But it's true that the council do nothing inexpensively.
>
> Cheaply, often. But not inexpensively.
>

My neighbour works for the local authority housing dept.
She had her garage flat roof replaced a few years ago and
it is a semi-garage of two between two houses and separated
from each by a metre wide path. The other half said he paid
700 pounds for his share to remove and dispose the old
felted chipboard. Re-deck with 18mm OSB3, plus felt, plus
cap all the timber upstands with uPVC and new guttering.

I priced up the materials at 700 pounds alone, so the
roofing contractor quite probably does overpriced work
for the council and did this for free Labour.

> Anyway: structural engineer been. The roof *is* RAAC, the intermediate floors probably aren't.
>
> Struct Engr in contact with council about what to do. I'll be phoning insurer later.
>
> In the meantime I'm glad I didn't go wild with the chandeliers.
>
> Owain
>
>

Costwise or Weight ?? :-;

[Owain Lastname]

On Wednesday, 20 September 2023 at 18:46:16 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
> > In the meantime I'm glad I didn't go wild with the chandeliers.

> Costwise or Weight ?? :-;

Well, both.

Owain

[Owain Lastname]

Well, I'm going to be off-group for a while. Moving to temporary accom while the roof is checked, so won't have PC access.

Best wishes all

Owain

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[Animal]

Enjoy the time.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Why not? wifi to a mobile phone on a laptop...
> Best wishes all
>
> Owain
>

--
“The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools.”

Herbert Spencer

[RJH]

On 27 Sep 2023 at 04:34:08 BST, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 26/09/2023 20:00, Owain Lastname wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 20 September 2023 at 19:35:27 UTC+1, Owain Lastname wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, 20 September 2023 at 18:46:16 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
>>>>> In the meantime I'm glad I didn't go wild with the chandeliers.
>>>> Costwise or Weight ?? :-;
>>> Well, both.
>>
>> Well, I'm going to be off-group for a while. Moving to temporary accom while
>> the roof is checked, so won't have PC access.
>>
> Why not? wifi to a mobile phone on a laptop...

FYI, I did this for a few months with a PAYG contract (cancel with 30 days
notice) and tethered the phone to the TV and computer - worked very well.
You'd need a decent phone signal, obviously - I had 75% 4G.

>> Best wishes all
>>
>> Owain
>>

Best of luck!

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

[Theo]

Hope it goes well for you. Do keep us posted, when you are able to do so.
And uk.legal.moderated is also there just in case...

Theo

[Owain Lastname]

On Wednesday, 27 September 2023 at 04:34:13 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> > Well, I'm going to be off-group for a while. Moving to temporary accom while the roof is checked, so won't have PC access.
> Why not? wifi to a mobile phone on a laptop...

I don't have a laptop (well, I've borrowed one now)

We have a Dangerous Buildings Notice in progress and are waiting for reports. No idea yet about timescale if we can go back.
Moving in to a bedsit later this week. Hopefully from then I'll have my PC back and will have to sort out some mobile data.

Fortunately? only two blocks on the road have the 'experimental' RAAC roof, all the others are timber structure.

It's been a trying couple of weeks but could have been worse. No-one hurt. Just losing my sanity.

Insurers have refused to accept this is an 'insured peril' so that is another thing to negotiate.

Owain

[Owain Lastname]

On Monday 9 October 2023 at 10:50:24 UTC+1, Owain Lastname wrote:
> We have a Dangerous Buildings Notice in progress and are waiting for reports.

Well, we are still waiting for (more) reports (and I am still in the bedsit).

Estimated cost of repair (complete replacement) of roof is £400k. This will still not bring the rest of the building up to current Scottish social housing energy efficiency rules so the council is almost certainly going to decide on demolition.

Insurance have said 'no' and this has gone to the ABI and the Scottish Housing Minister.

May take 6+ months to go through the council processes (and this is an accelerated procedure, would normally take 18+ months) for the council to buy us out, hopefully for more than the Compulsory Purchase value.

Then I can get allocated a 1 bed council flats on which I have to pay rent.

Obviously this does not fill me with joy and I shall at that point be taking legal advice on compensation etc. At the moment I don't think lawyers can get a faster or better resolution.

Another two blocks have also been evacuated with a further 70+ flats having RAAC and being monitored whilst remaining occupied.

Thought I'd give you an update before Google Groups disappears.

Owain

[Andy Burns]

Owain Lastname wrote:

> Another two blocks have also been evacuated with a further 70+ flats
> having RAAC and being monitored whilst remaining occupied.

Would a few acrow props have mitigated the possibility of collapse,
avoiding need to evacuate until the legal wrangling had been sorted?

> Thought I'd give you an update before Google Groups disappears.

An alternative
<https://www.novabbs.com/aus+uk/thread.php?group=uk.d-i-y>

I think eternal-september is also preparing a web interface as well as
nntp access.

[JNugent]

On 16/02/2024 06:56, Owain Lastname wrote:
> On Monday 9 October 2023 at 10:50:24 UTC+1, Owain Lastname wrote:
>> We have a Dangerous Buildings Notice in progress and are waiting for reports.
>
> Well, we are still waiting for (more) reports (and I am still in the bedsit).
>
> Estimated cost of repair (complete replacement) of roof is £400k. This will still not bring the rest of the building up to current Scottish social housing energy efficiency rules so the council is almost certainly going to decide on demolition.
>
> Insurance have said 'no' and this has gone to the ABI and the Scottish Housing Minister.
>
> May take 6+ months to go through the council processes (and this is an accelerated procedure, would normally take 18+ months) for the council to buy us out, hopefully for more than the Compulsory Purchase value.
>
> Then I can get allocated a 1 bed council flats on which I have to pay rent.

Is that something remarkable?

[Owain Lastname]

On Friday 16 February 2024 at 13:30:11 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
> > Another two blocks have also been evacuated with a further 70+ flats
> > having RAAC and being monitored whilst remaining occupied.
> Would a few acrow props have mitigated the possibility of collapse,
> avoiding need to evacuate until the legal wrangling had been sorted?

It seems not.

Winding up the acrow props would put pressure on the underside of the RAAC, which could be enought to disturb it and cause movement or collapse.

I wondered if they could put some foam rubber between the acrow and the RAAC so there was minimal pressure on the RAAC but I'm not a structural engineer. The structural engineer who has seen it has said complete replacement of the roof is required and it's too dangerous for any more detailed or intrusive investigation.

Owain

[Owain Lastname]

On Friday 16 February 2024 at 17:33:07 UTC, JNugent wrote:
> > Then I can get allocated a 1 bed council flats on which I have to pay rent.
> Is that something remarkable?

Well, it certainly wasn't what I was expecting when I bought my flat for my old age.

Owain

[SteveW]

My son is 20, is a paid intern at the moment and then has another year
at uni. He then should be working where he is now and on fairly good
money. I have advised him that even if he has to rent rooms out to
afford the mortgage, that when it comes time, he should buy a house and
never consider a flat - too much risk of big costs for things such as
roofs, where there is no option for you to do temporary work until you
are ready to afford proper repair.

[JNugent]

Quite.

But council flats *are* (at least nominally) rented out, aren't they?

[The Natural Philosopher]

I have to say that if many serried ranks of shit Victorian terraces had
been demolished years ago the housing stock would have been better, but
the lives of the people who lived in them would not.

It's a dilemma...


--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

[GB]

On 16/02/2024 20:22, Owain Lastname wrote:
> On Friday 16 February 2024 at 13:30:11 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Another two blocks have also been evacuated with a further 70+ flats
>>> having RAAC and being monitored whilst remaining occupied.
>> Would a few acrow props have mitigated the possibility of collapse,
>> avoiding need to evacuate until the legal wrangling had been sorted?
>
> It seems not.
>
> Winding up the acrow props would put pressure on the underside of the RAAC, which could be enought to disturb it and cause movement or collapse.

Really? What about this, then?

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/health/23023657.crumbling-hospital-held-six-miles-props/

[Owain Lastname]

On Saturday 17 February 2024 at 11:17:03 UTC, GB wrote:
> >> Would a few acrow props have mitigated the possibility of collapse,
> >> avoiding need to evacuate until the legal wrangling had been sorted?
> > It seems not.
> > Winding up the acrow props would put pressure on the underside of the RAAC, which could be enought to disturb it and cause movement or collapse.
> Really? What about this, then?
> https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/health/23023657.crumbling-hospital-held-six-miles-props/

I'm sure it can and has been done elsewhere.

It's not considered advisable for my flat / building.

Owain

[Andrew]

Where eaxactly is this building, so we can have a look on
Google earth ?.

[Owain Lastname]

On Saturday 17 February 2024 at 17:35:44 UTC, Andrew wrote:
> > It's not considered advisable for my flat / building.

> Where eaxactly is this building, so we can have a look on
> Google earth ?.

I think you'll understand why I'd rather not put that amount of detail online.

Owain