Loo advice

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Anna Kettle

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Jul 5, 2008, 5:14:45 PM7/5/08
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I am about to fit out my ensuite which will be small but perfectly
formed

It would be good to have a 'back to the wall' loo to free up some
floorspace, but the stud wall behind the loo does not have room for a
tank in it. However the loft is just above, with plenty of space, so
I'd like to have a loo which is a bit like a high level loo, but with
the tank above the ceiling and out of sight

but a chain through the ceiling is going to look a bit odd, not to
mention drafty, so I am imagining a rod and lever system which runs
inside the stud wall, terminating in a button or lever behind the loo

I dont think that I will be very successful at doing a home made
version of this, so is such a device manufactured and on the market
(I've not seen one in any of my catalogues), or is there a source of
the bits that I can bolt together?

Anna
--
Anna Kettle
Lime plaster repair and conservation
Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
Tel:    (+44)  01359 230642
Mob:  (+44)  07976 649862
Please look at my website for examples of my work at:
www.kettlenet.co.uk  

John

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Jul 5, 2008, 5:28:29 PM7/5/08
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"Anna Kettle" <n...@home.co.uk> wrote in message
news:486fe21a...@news.individual.net...


Great idea - better flush and why would anyone want a tank of water taking
up space in a small bathroom if the loft is available (I will be watching
with interest)


Andrew Gabriel

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Jul 5, 2008, 5:37:15 PM7/5/08
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In article <486fe21a...@news.individual.net>,

n...@home.co.uk (Anna Kettle) writes:
> I am about to fit out my ensuite which will be small but perfectly
> formed
>
> It would be good to have a 'back to the wall' loo to free up some
> floorspace, but the stud wall behind the loo does not have room for a
> tank in it. However the loft is just above, with plenty of space, so
> I'd like to have a loo which is a bit like a high level loo, but with
> the tank above the ceiling and out of sight
>
> but a chain through the ceiling is going to look a bit odd, not to
> mention drafty, so I am imagining a rod and lever system which runs
> inside the stud wall, terminating in a button or lever behind the loo
>
> I dont think that I will be very successful at doing a home made
> version of this, so is such a device manufactured and on the market
> (I've not seen one in any of my catalogues), or is there a source of
> the bits that I can bolt together?

There are pressure operated flushes which use a push button
operating a tiny belows and a length of plastic tubing.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

John Rumm

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Jul 5, 2008, 5:42:36 PM7/5/08
to
Anna Kettle wrote:


> It would be good to have a 'back to the wall' loo to free up some
> floorspace, but the stud wall behind the loo does not have room for a
> tank in it. However the loft is just above, with plenty of space, so
> I'd like to have a loo which is a bit like a high level loo, but with
> the tank above the ceiling and out of sight
>
> but a chain through the ceiling is going to look a bit odd, not to
> mention drafty, so I am imagining a rod and lever system which runs
> inside the stud wall, terminating in a button or lever behind the loo
>
> I dont think that I will be very successful at doing a home made
> version of this, so is such a device manufactured and on the market
> (I've not seen one in any of my catalogues), or is there a source of
> the bits that I can bolt together?

Many of the concealed cisterns these days use a pneumatic connection
between the button and the flap valve. Typically one or two small thin
plastic tubes that would be easy to extend for your application.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

Andy Hall

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Jul 5, 2008, 5:43:31 PM7/5/08
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On 2008-07-05 22:14:45 +0100, n...@home.co.uk (Anna Kettle) said:

> I am about to fit out my ensuite which will be small but perfectly
> formed
>
> It would be good to have a 'back to the wall' loo to free up some
> floorspace, but the stud wall behind the loo does not have room for a
> tank in it. However the loft is just above, with plenty of space, so
> I'd like to have a loo which is a bit like a high level loo, but with
> the tank above the ceiling and out of sight
>
> but a chain through the ceiling is going to look a bit odd, not to
> mention drafty, so I am imagining a rod and lever system which runs
> inside the stud wall, terminating in a button or lever behind the loo
>
> I dont think that I will be very successful at doing a home made
> version of this, so is such a device manufactured and on the market
> (I've not seen one in any of my catalogues), or is there a source of
> the bits that I can bolt together?
>
> Anna

Yes.

Grohe make what is normally used as a concealed cistern. Go to their
web site and use EAU2 as a search term.

This will give the cistern itself plus an airbutton accessory which
will do dual flush as well if you want.

You could fit this into the loft and put a longer flush pipe on it,
although you might need to fit something in it to restrict the flow to
the pan slightly

Rod

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Jul 5, 2008, 6:07:20 PM7/5/08
to
Anna Kettle wrote:
> I am about to fit out my ensuite which will be small but perfectly
> formed
>
> It would be good to have a 'back to the wall' loo to free up some
> floorspace, but the stud wall behind the loo does not have room for a
> tank in it. However the loft is just above, with plenty of space, so
> I'd like to have a loo which is a bit like a high level loo, but with
> the tank above the ceiling and out of sight
>
> but a chain through the ceiling is going to look a bit odd, not to
> mention drafty, so I am imagining a rod and lever system which runs
> inside the stud wall, terminating in a button or lever behind the loo
>
> I dont think that I will be very successful at doing a home made
> version of this, so is such a device manufactured and on the market
> (I've not seen one in any of my catalogues), or is there a source of
> the bits that I can bolt together?
>

The idea sounds fine...

Both our flap-valve cisterns have pneumatic releases. It would be
trivial to feed the very thin plastic pipe from the button to wherever
it is needed.

You still need the flush pipe. The way that curves might actually be a
limit. Can it go from horizontal at the pan inlet to vertical *within*
the thickness of the wall? Seems very tight to me.

I have just measured one of ours - 160mm deep cupboard plus 18mm front
panel. The cistern itself can't be much more than 140mm deep. I'd guess
the flush pipe turns 90 degrees in 100mm - might be possible to reduce
that a touch.

You can get cisterns down as slim as 80mm.

<http://www.infolink.com.au/c/Geberit/Geberit-offers-concealed-cisterns-for-bathrooms-n752264>

The cistern might take longer to fill due to its height (depending on
how you are feeding it).

If it does end up in the loft, make sure you lag the cistern properly!

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
<www.thyromind.info> <www.thyroiduk.org> <www.altsupportthyroid.org>

Andrew Gabriel

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Jul 5, 2008, 6:09:32 PM7/5/08
to
In article <486feb03@qaanaaq>,

Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam> writes:
>
> Grohe make what is normally used as a concealed cistern. Go to their
> web site and use EAU2 as a search term.
>
> This will give the cistern itself plus an airbutton accessory which
> will do dual flush as well if you want.
>
> You could fit this into the loft and put a longer flush pipe on it,
> although you might need to fit something in it to restrict the flow to
> the pan slightly

Yes, high level flushes use a thinner flush pipe, to avoid
plastering the toilet contents up the opposite wall...

Given regs were relaxed to allow flapper valves a while back,
seems like we should be able to use blowout jet toilets, which
don't need any cistern at all. Not seen them in the UK though.

Andy Hall

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Jul 5, 2008, 6:19:10 PM7/5/08
to
On 2008-07-05 23:09:32 +0100, and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

Do you mean like those in the U.S. where there is a fitment just above
the pan and a lever that you push off centre.?

John Stumbles

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Jul 5, 2008, 8:50:13 PM7/5/08
to
On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 21:14:45 +0000, Anna Kettle wrote:

> I am about to fit out my ensuite which will be small but perfectly
> formed
>
> It would be good to have a 'back to the wall' loo to free up some
> floorspace, but the stud wall behind the loo does not have room for a
> tank in it. However the loft is just above, with plenty of space, so
> I'd like to have a loo which is a bit like a high level loo, but with
> the tank above the ceiling and out of sight
>
> but a chain through the ceiling is going to look a bit odd, not to
> mention drafty, so I am imagining a rod and lever system which runs
> inside the stud wall, terminating in a button or lever behind the loo
>
> I dont think that I will be very successful at doing a home made
> version of this, so is such a device manufactured and on the market
> (I've not seen one in any of my catalogues), or is there a source of
> the bits that I can bolt together?

BES do the MacDee Pneu-compact (search http://www.bes.co.uk/ for their p/n
16053) for about £45 inc VAT & delivery. Has a pneumatic push-button
operated single-volume flush where the button can be about 2-3 metres from
the cistern with the supplied tubing, or the other end of the street if
you extended it!

You'd also need to extend the flush pipe. It comes with a standard L
shaped one about 300-400mm long, but I think you could use 40mm
compression fittings to extend with 40mm pushfit or solvent-weld pipe. (I
might be about to find out: I'm currently installing one for some folks
who complain that the existing cistern wasn't clearing the <ahem!> solids
on first flush. Assuming the MacDee mounted at normal height doesn't work
any better plan B is to try it at high level.)

If that's too much £££ you could get a plastic cistern or even a plastic
central heating header tank from a skip, and fit it with a flap valve.
These are operated by lifting the flap (like a bath/basin plug on a hinge)
and would be easy to DIY a linkage to, either a la old-fashioned servant
bells in posh houses, or bicycle brake cable (Bowden cable) or as
Heath-Robinson as you like. (I did this to replace a cast-iron bell syphon
on an ancient but rather funky cast-iron high-level cistern - see
http://yaph.co.uk/WC_restoration/)

--
John Stumbles

The floggings will continue until morale improves

Anna Kettle

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Jul 6, 2008, 2:35:12 AM7/6/08
to
Excellent! It looks like the idea is a goer

Andrew Gabriel

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Jul 6, 2008, 2:41:53 AM7/6/08
to
In article <486ff35e@qaanaaq>,

Yes, although there are various different styles of flush controls.
Can be timed, or for as long as you press. Need at least 2 bar water
pressure.

Andy Hall

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Jul 6, 2008, 2:59:03 AM7/6/08
to
On 2008-07-06 07:35:12 +0100, n...@home.co.uk (Anna Kettle) said:

> Excellent! It looks like the idea is a goer
>
> Anna

As it were :-)


@diddle.dot Donwill

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Jul 6, 2008, 3:04:19 AM7/6/08
to

"Anna Kettle" <n...@home.co.uk> wrote in message
news:486fe21a...@news.individual.net...
>I am about to fit out my ensuite which will be small but perfectly
> formed
>
> It would be good to have a 'back to the wall' loo to free up some
> floorspace, but the stud wall behind the loo does not have room for a
> tank in it. However the loft is just above, with plenty of space, so
> I'd like to have a loo which is a bit like a high level loo, but with
> the tank above the ceiling and out of sight
>
> but a chain through the ceiling is going to look a bit odd, not to
> mention drafty, so I am imagining a rod and lever system which runs
> inside the stud wall, terminating in a button or lever behind the loo
>
> I dont think that I will be very successful at doing a home made
> version of this, so is such a device manufactured and on the market
> (I've not seen one in any of my catalogues), or is there a source of
> the bits that I can bolt together?
>
> Anna

I have a loo which came with an attached sink, marble top and cupboard.

The relevant info is that the loo flush is activated by a button on the
front of the cupboard frame, behind the button is a little fexible plastic
box similar to an aneroid capsule, it is connected to a flexible plastic
tube which goes to the tank which is hidden inside the cupboard..

Pressing the button collapses the aneroid capsule, transmitting a pressure
increase down the tube , which causes the tank to flush. I havn't
investigated the tank end of the tube but I would imagine that there is a
similar aneroid capsule there which expands to operate the flush release
valve.
So a remote operating tank flush does exist.

Hope this helps.

Don


@diddle.dot Donwill

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Jul 6, 2008, 3:10:48 AM7/6/08
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"Donwill" <popple @diddle .dot> wrote in message
news:48706e72$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...

>
> I have a loo which came with an attached sink, marble top and cupboard.
>
> The relevant info is that the loo flush is activated by a button on the
> front of the cupboard frame, behind the button is a little fexible plastic
> box similar to an aneroid capsule, it is connected to a flexible plastic
> tube which goes to the tank which is hidden inside the cupboard..
>
> Pressing the button collapses the aneroid capsule, transmitting a pressure
> increase down the tube , which causes the tank to flush. I havn't
> investigated the tank end of the tube but I would imagine that there is a
> similar aneroid capsule there which expands to operate the flush release
> valve.
> So a remote operating tank flush does exist.
> Hope this helps.
>
> Don

Sorry, when I sent my reply, my computer hadn't downloaded all the other
answers to Anna's question so please ignore my contribution which, clearly
has already been covered.
Regards
Don


Andy Dee

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Jul 6, 2008, 3:49:22 AM7/6/08
to
There is a problem in extending a pneumatic flush.
As the pipe is lengthened, the air pressure increase will drop due to
the larger volume of air in the pipe and at some point, fail to operate
the remote end.

A

Rod

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Jul 6, 2008, 4:01:04 AM7/6/08
to
Andy Dee wrote:
<>
> There is a problem in extending a pneumatic flush.
> As the pipe is lengthened, the air pressure increase will drop due to
> the larger volume of air in the pipe and at some point, fail to operate
> the remote end.
>
> A

Technically true. But both of ours came with several feet of pipe - I
did not cut much, if any, out - and they are fine. Pretty sure that
there would have been enough to reach a cistern mounted in the ceiling
void immediately over the push (assuming fairly direct route).

Mary Fisher

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Jul 6, 2008, 5:10:40 AM7/6/08
to

"Anna Kettle" <n...@home.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4870676a...@news.individual.net...

> Excellent! It looks like the idea is a goer
>
> Anna

It certainly does! This question and its answers are fascinting -
espectially the one about using brake cable.

Trouble is, if anyone but you will use your new contraption you'll have to
have a printed notice to tell folk how to flush it ... :-)

Mary


ALex

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Jul 6, 2008, 5:33:28 AM7/6/08
to
Extending the pneumatic system may work ok,but finding a flush pipe that
will work from loft to pan will be much more dificult.
Never seen one and been in the business 40 years,flush pipes tend to be
manufactured for hideaway systems and are not normally
more than 600mm in length

Alex

Rod

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Jul 6, 2008, 8:11:08 AM7/6/08
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John Stumbles

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Jul 6, 2008, 8:30:07 AM7/6/08
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On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 10:10:40 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:

> Trouble is, if anyone but you will use your new contraption you'll have
> to have a printed notice to tell folk how to flush it ... :-)

I rather like the idea of finding an old fashioned bell pull (the sort
with a disc set into the wall beside the front door, with a knob on a rod
recessed into the disc, IYKWIM) and arranging that to work my cloakroom WC.
(But having it in the loo, not at the front door, of course. (Oh, I don't
know, could be interesting :-)))

--
John Stumbles

This sig intentionally left blank

John Stumbles

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Jul 6, 2008, 8:36:09 AM7/6/08
to
On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 08:49:22 +0100, Andy Dee wrote:

> There is a problem in extending a pneumatic flush.
> As the pipe is lengthened, the air pressure increase will drop due to
> the larger volume of air in the pipe and at some point, fail to operate
> the remote end.

True, but you can go 10s of metres on this sort of arrangement. The same
sort of button and tube are used for manually-started negative head
showers where the push button may be 2 floors above and the other end of
the house from the actuator at the pump. Of course the latter probably
needs less displacement than the WC actuator, but for Anna's application I
doubt it'd be a problem.

--
John Stumbles

Bob the builder / it'll cost 'yer
Bob the builder / loadsa dosh

John Stumbles

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Jul 6, 2008, 8:51:23 AM7/6/08
to

The thread of the siphon is 1 1/2" BSP so a female connector such as BES
p/n 11112 40 mm, BSP Female, white £0.64 (push-fit) or 11870
40 mm, white solvent £0.70 (solvent weld) will get you into standard 40mm
push-fit or solvent-weld pipe, respectively. I'd do it in push-fit because
flush pipe is a bit smaller than 40mm push-fit pipe, which itself is
smaller than solvent weld, so with a 40mm swept bend at the bottom of the
run the push-fit pipe should go into one of those finned plastic widgets
into the back of the pan.

Alternatively you could go between flush pipe and standard pipe via 40mm
compression or "expansion joints"

--
John Stumbles

Pessimists are never disappointed

Owain

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Jul 6, 2008, 1:53:55 PM7/6/08
to
John Stumbles wrote:
> I rather like the idea of finding an old fashioned bell pull (the sort
> with a disc set into the wall beside the front door, with a knob on a rod
> recessed into the disc, IYKWIM) and arranging that to work my cloakroom WC.

A dual flush cisterm could have different-shaped, er, knobs for Nos. 1
and 2.

Owain

Andy Hall

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Jul 6, 2008, 5:27:01 PM7/6/08
to

There coud be. I have a slightly different Grohe model, although it
has the same siphon. They only supply about 400mm of tube and I
needed some more so I bought a length from RS on a reel. Before
fitting finally, just for grins I tried it with about 5m. It flushed
quite happily.


terry

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Jul 6, 2008, 6:35:10 PM7/6/08
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On Jul 5, 7:14 pm, n...@home.co.uk (Anna Kettle) wrote:
.
Anna when you finish and are flushed with success with your above
ceiling tank ould you please post your design here.
Good luck. Thankyou.
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