Why did the UK change from round pin to square pin plugs?

[Commander Kinsey]

Why did the UK change from round pin to square pin plugs? Fuses and sleeves could have been added to the round ones just as easily.

[Peeler]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:52:14 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (aka "Commander Kinsey",
"James Wilkinson", "Steven Wanker","Bruce Farquar", "Fred Johnson, etc.),
the pathological resident idiot and attention whore of all the uk ngs,
blathered again:

<FLUSH the subnormal sociopathic trolling attention whore's latest
attention-baiting sick bullshit unread again>

--
damdu...@yahoo.co.uk about Birdbrain Macaw's (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL)
trolling:
"He is a well known attention seeking troll and every reply you
make feeds him.
Starts many threads most of which die quick as on the UK groups anyone
with sense Kill filed him ages ago which is why he now cross posts to
the US groups for a new audience.
This thread was unusual in that it derived and continued without him
to a large extent and his silly questioning is an attempt to get
noticed again."
MID: <be195d5jh0hktj054...@4ax.com>

--
ItsJoanNotJoann addressing Birdbrain Macaw's (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL):
"You're an annoying troll and I'm done with you and your
stupidity."
MID: <e39a6a7f-9677-4e78...@googlegroups.com>

--
AndyW addressing Birdbrain:
"Troll or idiot?...
You have been presented with a viewpoint with information, reasoning,
historical cases, citations and references to back it up and wilfully
ignore all going back to your idea which has no supporting information."
MID: <KaToA.263621$g93.2...@fx10.am4>

--
Phil Lee adressing Birdbrain Macaw:
"You are too stupid to be wasting oxygen."
MID: <uv2u4clurscpat3g2...@4ax.com>

--
Phil Lee describing Birdbrain Macaw:
"I've never seen such misplaced pride in being a fucking moronic motorist."
MID: <j7fb6ct83igfd1g99...@4ax.com>

--
Tony944 addressing Birdbrain Macaw:
"I seen and heard many people but you are on top of list being first class
ass hole jerk. ...You fit under unconditional Idiot and should be put in
mental institution.
MID: <VLCdnYC5HK1Z4S3F...@giganews.com>

--
Pelican to Birdbrain Macaw:
"Ok. I'm persuaded . You are an idiot."
MID: <obru31$nao$3...@dont-email.me>

--
DerbyDad03 addressing Birdbrain Macaw (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL):
"Frigging Idiot. Get the hell out of my thread."
MID: <4d907253-b3b9-40d4...@googlegroups.com>

--
Kerr Mudd-John about Birdbrain Macaw (now "Commander Kinsey LOL):
"It's like arguing with a demented frog."
MID: <op.yy3c0...@dell3100.workgroup>

--
Mr Pounder Esquire about Birdbrain Macaw (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL):
"the piss poor delivery boy with no hot running water, 11 cats and
several parrots living in his hovel."
MID: <odqtgc$iug$1...@dont-email.me>

--
Rob Morley about Birdbrain:
"He's a perennial idiot"
MID: <20170519215057.56a1f1d4@Mars>

--
JoeyDee to Birdbrain
"I apologize for thinking you were a jerk. You're just someone with an IQ
lower than your age, and I accept that as a reason for your comments."
MID: <0001HW.1EE2D20300...@news.eternal-september.org>

--
Sam Plusnet about Birdbrain (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL):
"He's just desperate to be noticed. Any attention will do, no matter how
negative it may be."
MID: <rOmdndd_O7u8iK7E...@brightview.co.uk>

--
thekma...@gmail.com asking Birdbrain:
"What, were you dropped on your head as a child?"
MID: <58ddfad5-d9a5-4031...@googlegroups.com>

--
Christie addressing endlessly driveling Birdbrain Macaw (now "Commander
Kinsey" LOL):
"What are you resurrecting that old post of mine for? It's from last
month some time. You're like a dog who's just dug up an old bone they
hid in the garden until they were ready to have another go at it."
MID: <59d8b0db...@news.eternal-september.org>

--
Mr Pounder's fitting description of Birdbrain Macaw:
"You are a well known fool, a tosser, a pillock, a stupid unemployable
sponging failure who will always live alone and will die alone. You will not
be missed."
MID: <orree6$on2$1...@dont-email.me>

--
Richard to pathetic wanker Hucker:
"You haven't bred?
Only useful thing you've done in your pathetic existence."
MID: <orvctf$l5m$1...@gioia.aioe.org>

--
cl...@snyder.on.ca about Birdbrain (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL):
""not the sharpest knife in the drawer"'s parents sure made a serious
mistake having him born alive -- A total waste of oxygen, food, space,
and bandwidth."
MID: <s5e9uclqpnabteheh...@4ax.com>

--
Mr Pounder exposing sociopathic Birdbrain:
"You will always be a lonely sociopath living in a shithole with no hot
running water with loads of stinking cats and a few parrots."
MID: <os5m1i$8m1$1...@dont-email.me>

--
francis about Birdbrain (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL):
"He seems to have a reputation as someone of limited intelligence"
MID: <cf06cdd9-8bb8-469c...@googlegroups.com>

--
Peter Moylan about Birdbrain (now "Commander Kinsey" LOL):
"If people like JWS didn't exist, we would have to find some other way to
explain the concept of "invincible ignorance"."
MID: <otofc8$tbg$2...@dont-email.me>

--
Lewis about nym-shifting Birdbrain:
"Typical narcissist troll, thinks his shit is so grand he has the right to
try to force it on everyone
MID: <slrnq16c27....@jaka.local>

[jon]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:52:14 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:

> Why did the UK change from round pin to square pin plugs? Fuses and
> sleeves could have been added to the round ones just as easily.

To keep people in work.

[Scott]

I think you might struggle to fit a fuse to a 5 amp plug.

[The Natural Philosopher]

No. Because it is easier to manufacture a true pair of self-wiping
contacts that cover a wide area, against a flat bar, than against a
round pin.

the 13A design was all about safety, not jobs for the boys. That came
later, with the labour governments.


--
“But what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!”

Mary Wollstonecraft

[Brian Gaff]

Could have been but flat connections are easier to make than curved ones.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Commander Kinsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:op.1n5pl...@ryzen.home...

[hgt]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 19:20:01 +1000, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 22/06/2022 10:07, jon wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:52:14 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>
>>> Why did the UK change from round pin to square pin plugs? Fuses and
>>> sleeves could have been added to the round ones just as easily.
>> To keep people in work.
>
> No. Because it is easier to manufacture a true pair of self-wiping
> contacts that cover a wide area, against a flat bar, than against a
> round pin.
>
> the 13A design was all about safety, not jobs for the boys. That came
> later, with the labour governments.

In fact the BS 1363 was introduced by the Labour govt of Attlee.

[charles]

In article <oen5bhh564835kdb8...@4ax.com>,

I've seen plenty of fused 5 amp plugs.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Mark Carver]

<https://cpc.farnell.com/mk/641whi/5a-fused-round-pin-plug/dp/PL01928?mckv=s_dc|pcrid|491034915811|kword||match||plid||slid||product|PL01928|pgrid|43783381821|ptaid|pla-371267397983|&CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-SHOPPING&s_kwcid=AL!5616!3!491034915811!!!network}!371267397983!&gclid=CjwKCAjw-8qVBhANEiwAfjXLrjDE3A8uvuFvzvil_zW67UdmX7kOzjD8ZSylcYVfXh_vGG42V6FODxoCBNIQAvD_BwE>

[Colin Bignell]

On 22/06/2022 09:52, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> Why did the UK change from round pin to square pin plugs? Fuses and
> sleeves could have been added to the round ones just as easily.

To make the plugs and sockets from two different wiring systems
incompatible.

--
Colin Bignell

[Mark Carver]

My grandmother's house until she moved out in 1980, had a glorious
mixture of 13A, 15A, and 5A sockets.
The living room had 13 and 15A wired side by side. She powered her iron
from a bayonet adaptor in the back room pendant bulb socket.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 22/06/2022 10:55, charles wrote:
> In article <oen5bhh564835kdb8...@4ax.com>,
> Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:07:29 -0000 (UTC), jon <j...@nospam.cn> wrote:
>
>>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:52:14 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why did the UK change from round pin to square pin plugs? Fuses and
>>>> sleeves could have been added to the round ones just as easily.
>
>>> To keep people in work.
>
>> I think you might struggle to fit a fuse to a 5 amp plug.
>
> I've seen plenty of fused 5 amp plugs.
>

Only MK make em and they cost as much as 5 non fused ones.
I have never seen one, ever.


--
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities.”

― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de
Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
M. de Voltaire

[Andy Dingley]

On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 09:52:20 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> Why did the UK change from round pin to square pin plugs? Fuses and sleeves could have been added to the round ones just as easily.

Better contacts.

The original round pin design was made on an automatic turret lathe, then the pins sawn and bent outwards to give them some limited spring pressure. The recetacles were made similarly. For square pins, the pin was harder to make (milling is trickier to automate than round turning), but the contact springs were now in the receptacles, formed from a bent flat strip spring. These could give much better contact force. This massively reduced the risk of poor contacts, overheating and fires when used for high currents.

The US had gone a similar route, but went to pins made of folded thin sheet.

[Andy Dingley]

On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 11:33:41 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> >
> Only MK make em and they cost as much as 5 non fused ones.
> I have never seen one, ever.

Several makers do them, inc Crabtree and Schneider. They even have shrouded pins these days, although they are mostly staggeringly expensive. They're often not needed to be fused, because 5A circuits are wired as spurs and fused at a low current. Where these circuits are fused to a high current (they're effectively rings, same as 13A practice) then a fused plug is still needed, to protect the appliance.

They're becoming _more_ popular now, at least in theatres. Where lighting was previously powered as a lot of separate dimmable supplies up onto a gantry (lots and lots of cable), new lighting is now DMX controlled and can share its main supply. The plugs need to be fused, but there's much less cable. Lots of small theatres and vilage halls have to use DMX lighting over the last decade, because their insurers are demanding it – it reduces time spent up ladders, fitting coloured gels.

[Max Demian]

On 22/06/2022 10:55, charles wrote:

> In article <oen5bhh564835kdb8...@4ax.com>,
> Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:07:29 -0000 (UTC), jon <j...@nospam.cn> wrote:
>
>>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:52:14 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why did the UK change from round pin to square pin plugs? Fuses and
>>>> sleeves could have been added to the round ones just as easily.
>
>>> To keep people in work.
>
>> I think you might struggle to fit a fuse to a 5 amp plug.
>
> I've seen plenty of fused 5 amp plugs.

I think I recall seeing plugs where the pins *were* the fuses.

--
Max Demian

[Scott]

Thanks for the link. I did not anticipate the plug being this shape.
I was thinking of the more triangular ones.

The original question now seems a very good one. I assume the answer
was to avoid people using unfused round pin plugs in ring circuits
(fused at 30/32 amps) for decades to come.

There is another problem I have just thought of. A 5 amp plug in a 5
amp socket would be okay as the radial circuit would be fused at 5
amps. However, if you plugged a 5 amp plug into a 15 amp (radial)
socket using an adapter, you would then be exposing the appliance to
the full 15 amps. Maybe this was the purpose of the fused 5 amp plugs
but I have certainly never seen one in use.

[Andy Dingley]

On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 12:36:38 UTC+1, Scott wrote:

> However, if you plugged a 5 amp plug into a 15 amp (radial)
> socket using an adapter, you would then be exposing the appliance to
> the full 15 amps.

The problem there is the adapter. Not perhaps as bad as the many old adapters to run things from lighting circuits, but any adapter like that would need to be fused internally itself, because of just the problem you describe.

[Scott]

I am sure the adapters were not fused in the era when the plugs were
not fused. How would you fuse an adapter anyway? The ones I remember
had an outlet at the front for a 15 amp plug and outlets on each side
for 5 amp plugs. Would three fuses then be needed (one for each 5 amp
outlet and one for the adapter itself)?

[Scott]

Was there a day when electricity for lighting was cheaper than
electricity for sockets making it cheaper to plug the iron into the
light fitting?

[charles]

In article <F8CdnffC2aTfZS__...@brightview.co.uk>,

D&S -screw in fuses. 13A ciruit.

[Mark Carver]

My memory of the type you describe, just had a single 13 Amp fuse under
a plastic flap, (just like the 13A 'blocks' you can still get today do) ?

<https://www.screwfix.com/p/masterplug-13a-fused-3-way-plug-adaptor/9773P?kpid=9773P&ds_kid=92700055281954475&ds_rl=1249401&gclid=CjwKCAjw-8qVBhANEiwAfjXLrqYv7K9_fioA0JVv6yQVdEPt6DSzL8O24nNu46SM5z3a_fM9t6XehxoCEHAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds>

[Mark Carver]

I don't think so ?

Although it risked burning the house down, a safety benefit was there
was no trailing lead to trip over ;-)

[charles]

In article <uq16bhhdvqo2ea55n...@4ax.com>,

No, it was just that tehre were plentyof lighting sockets and few power
outlets. When we moved into our fist house in 1964, it had 4 power
outlets. One in each bedrooma and one in the kitchen, Neither livig room
had one

[Peeler]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:07:29 -0000 (UTC), jon, another brain dead,
troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered:

> To keep people in work.

And troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE no.1 appeared on the scene...

[Peeler]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:40:10 +0100, Brainless & Daft, the notorious,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered again:

> Could have been but flat connections are easier to make than curved ones.

> Brainless & Daft

Yep, YOU sick swine won't be missing on the long list of troll-feeding
senile assholes in this thread, you miserable disgusting troll-feeding
senile cretin!

[Peeler]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 11:12:35 +0100, Colin Bignell, another braindead,
troll-feeding, senile shithead, blathered:

> To make the plugs and sockets from two different wiring systems
> incompatible.

Or to give the sociopathic attention whore another opportunity to bait all
you troll-feeding senile ASSHOLES on these groups? <BG>

[Andy Dingley]

On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 13:14:06 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
> Was there a day when electricity for lighting was cheaper than
> electricity for sockets making it cheaper to plug the iron into the
> light fitting?

No, but fixed heating was (at one time) cheaper.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Extension_to_supply_%28West_Gloucestershire_Power_Company%29.jpg

AFAIK, lighting and 'appliances' have always been the same rate.

[jon]

You would struggle to fit a fuse in a 2A round pin plug.

[jon]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:20:01 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 22/06/2022 10:07, jon wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:52:14 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>
>>> Why did the UK change from round pin to square pin plugs? Fuses and
>>> sleeves could have been added to the round ones just as easily.
>>
>>
>> To keep people in work.
>
> No. Because it is easier to manufacture a true pair of self-wiping
> contacts that cover a wide area, against a flat bar, than against a
> round pin.
>
> the 13A design was all about safety, not jobs for the boys. That came
> later, with the labour governments.

I never had any trouble with round pin plugs and our mains power was DC
until ~1950. I had all sorts of experiments connected to rotary
transformers.

[Scott]

Does DC use the same fuses as AC?

[Scott]

This one?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195144173740?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=195144173740&targetid=1405062617979&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=9046941&poi=&campaignid=16782379350&mkgroupid=138238132947&rlsatarget=pla-1405062617979&abcId=9300843&merchantid=6995734&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyN_x85PB-AIVEpftCh230Q5VEAQYAyABEgJM8_D_BwE
If you flip through the photos, you will see there is no place for a
fuse in the base. I am quite sure ours had neither a flap nor a fuse.

[Scott]

I am sure this has to be right as otherwise two meters would be
needed. However, I am sure I heard the story somewhere, maybe urban
myth (along with the need to switch off sockets when not in use to
stop the electricity leaking out through the holes and increasing the
electricity bill).

[Jeff Layman]

As did my mother in the 50s. I reckon the irons in those days were
barely 1kW. Add a 60 or 100W bulb, and you are still some way from the
1200W total allowed by the 5A fuse protecting the wiring circuit. Mind
you, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by how much 5A fuse wire we used!

--

Jeff

[Scott]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 14:42:06 +0100, Jeff Layman <Je...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

I think my former neighbour had a 5 amp socket replaced by a 13 amp
socket to allow her to plug in the kettle without changing the plug.
My only consolation was that I assume the kettle was never left on
when there was no-one in the house.

[Mark Carver]

Oh, I never seen in the flesh one that old, the ones I recall were white
cubic blocks,

Like this on , but adapting the other way round !

https://flameport.com/electric_museum/plugs_converters_adaptors/3_way_15A_to-13A_adaptor.cs4

[Mark Carver]

On 22/06/2022 14:34, Scott wrote:
> However, I am sure I heard the story somewhere, maybe urban
> myth (along with the need to switch off sockets when not in use to
> stop the electricity leaking out through the holes and increasing the
> electricity bill).

I actually heard Alastair Campbell (Tony Blair's spin doctor) say on an
interview programme, that he goes round his house doing just that, as
his contribution to saving energy use.

I thought he was taking the piss, but I don't think he was.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 19:20:01 +1000, The Natural Philosopher
> <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> > On 22/06/2022 10:07, jon wrote:

> >> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:52:14 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >>
> >>> Why did the UK change from round pin to square pin plugs? Fuses and
> >>> sleeves could have been added to the round ones just as easily.

> >> To keep people in work.
> >
> > No. Because it is easier to manufacture a true pair of self-wiping
> > contacts that cover a wide area, against a flat bar, than against a
> > round pin.
> >
> > the 13A design was all about safety, not jobs for the boys. That came
> > later, with the labour governments.

The ring main came about as the most economic way to use available
materials in a time of shortages.

As an aside, I'm sure you're very pleased the latest jobs for the boys
Boris scandal involves his mistress, not a boy?

--
*When you've seen one shopping centre you've seen a mall*

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Joe]

It did in those days, when DC was always constant-voltage, as it
usually is now. Some years ago, I ran up against an odd problem: a 25A
fuse in a DC power line was blowing at 18A (measured with two AVOs in
parallel). Not quickly, just drooping at power on and falling apart a
few hours later.

Some of you will have guessed the answer: the fuse was in the switched
path of a switching regulator, before smoothing. I estimated the duty
cycle and calculated that the RMS value was about 35A. Problem solved.

Some DC is more equal than others...

--
Joe

[Mark Carver]

I did find a bayonet adaptor while clearing out my late father's things
(which he had probably cleared out from my grandmother's things !)

I've kept it, you never know, it might come in handy, though I'm not
sure what our sons or grandson will make of it in 20 or 30 years time !

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <jhg9c9...@mid.individual.net>,

Mark Carver <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> My grandmother's house until she moved out in 1980, had a glorious
> mixture of 13A, 15A, and 5A sockets.

Wot - no 2 pin ones too? 15 and 5 amps came in 2 and three pin versions.
But a two pin wouldn't fit a three pin socket. Or rather mostly.

> The living room had 13 and 15A wired side by side. She powered her iron
> from a bayonet adaptor in the back room pendant bulb socket.

When I re-wired my parents house, the round pin sockets were all in the
skirting boards. Which were pretty small too. The new sockets all went in
the walls at recommended height. Left the old (now disconnected) until
they could be removed and holes filled in at re-decoration time. I changed
the plugs on every appliance I could find to 13 amp.
A couple of years later, got a call from my mother. Her sewing machine
wouldn't work. I'd missed changing the plug on that and she'd plugged it
into an old socket which hadn't been removed by then. And moaned about how
inconvenient the only round pin socket she could still find was.

--
*Not all men are annoying. Some are dead.

[Joe]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 03:44:45 -0700 (PDT)
Andy Dingley <teapo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 09:52:20 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> > Why did the UK change from round pin to square pin plugs? Fuses and
> > sleeves could have been added to the round ones just as easily.
>

> Better contacts.
>
> The original round pin design was made on an automatic turret lathe,
> then the pins sawn and bent outwards to give them some limited spring
> pressure. The recetacles were made similarly. For square pins, the
> pin was harder to make (milling is trickier to automate than round
> turning), but the contact springs were now in the receptacles, formed
> from a bent flat strip spring. These could give much better contact
> force. This massively reduced the risk of poor contacts, overheating
> and fires when used for high currents.
>
> The US had gone a similar route, but went to pins made of folded thin
> sheet.

Round pins are better, if the socket is of the correct type. Even
sprung flat contacts against flat pins only make contact at a few
points. Neither surface is completely flat, nor are they guaranteed to
be parallel.

One type of low-resistance socket uses round pins and multiple
spring wires in the mating socket, tilted sideways at a small angle, so
they are tangent to the pin. So the pin potentially makes contact at as
many points as there are wires.

Not entirely practical for the domestic market.

--
Joe

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <F8CdnffC2aTfZS__...@brightview.co.uk>,
Max Demian <max_d...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On 22/06/2022 10:55, charles wrote:
> > In article <oen5bhh564835kdb8...@4ax.com>,
> > Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> >> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:07:29 -0000 (UTC), jon <j...@nospam.cn> wrote:

> >
> >>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:52:14 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Why did the UK change from round pin to square pin plugs? Fuses and
> >>>> sleeves could have been added to the round ones just as easily.
> >

> >>> To keep people in work.
> >
> >> I think you might struggle to fit a fuse to a 5 amp plug.
> >

> > I've seen plenty of fused 5 amp plugs.

> I think I recall seeing plugs where the pins *were* the fuses.

D&S. Dangerous things. Had a habit of pulling them out leaving the fuse
sticking out of the live. And a natural reaction is to pull it out with
your fingers...

--
*Many hamsters only blink one eye at a time *

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <ms76bhl6f1hppd9qs...@4ax.com>,

Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> I think my former neighbour had a 5 amp socket replaced by a 13 amp
> socket to allow her to plug in the kettle without changing the plug.
> My only consolation was that I assume the kettle was never left on
> when there was no-one in the house.

In those days. the two common cable sizes use for sockets were 3/029 and
7/029. Metric equivalents 1.5 and 2.5mm. I'd say 3/029 would handle 13
amps OK for a very long time. Although the 5 amp fuse in the fusebox
should have failed.

--
*What happens if you get scared half to death twice? *

[Mark Carver]

On 22/06/2022 15:16, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <jhg9c9...@mid.individual.net>,
> Mark Carver <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> My grandmother's house until she moved out in 1980, had a glorious
>> mixture of 13A, 15A, and 5A sockets.
> Wot - no 2 pin ones too? 15 and 5 amps came in 2 and three pin versions.
> But a two pin wouldn't fit a three pin socket. Or rather mostly.

I do recall 2 pin sockets. Same as shaver plugs. In fact for some reason
I recall our Pifco Christmas Tree lights, a bit like these...

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=36651&d=1275686418

...had a two pin plug on them, which was plugged in via a shaver adaptor.

 The bulbs had a life of just a few hours, and of course no clever
self-shorting feature when they blew.
I was tasked (often a couple of times a day) to use dad's multimeter to
work out which one had blown.

[Mark Carver]

On 22/06/2022 15:17, Joe wrote:
>
> Round pins are better, if the socket is of the correct type. Even
> sprung flat contacts against flat pins only make contact at a few
> points. Neither surface is completely flat, nor are they guaranteed to
> be parallel.
>

As I pointed out in another thread, round pin, 3 pin plugs are tricky to
plug in in a hurry, they spin about on the Earth pin.
It's hardly a 'deal breaker' though !

[jon]

What! you believe that prat

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

Scott formulated the question :

> I think you might struggle to fit a fuse to a 5 amp plug.

No, there was a version of the plug which used round pins and the pins
were actually the fuses.

[Owain Lastname]

On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 13:14:06 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
> Was there a day when electricity for lighting was cheaper than
> electricity for sockets making it cheaper to plug the iron into the
> light fitting?

The reverse; in the early days the lighting was the main load and the power companies wanted to increase daytime consumption to make it worthwhile keeping the generators running all day.

Owain

[Colin Bignell]

On 22/06/2022 14:34, Scott wrote:

In the days of gas lighting, you did need to turn the supply off, to
stop it leaking out when when the lights were off. So, it is
understandable that some people brought up with gas lights thought the
same applied to electric lights.

My mother fitted 15W lamps in her first home, as they were quite bright
enough for somebody who had grown up using candles for light.

--
Colin Bignell

[Colin Bignell]

On 22/06/2022 15:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <ms76bhl6f1hppd9qs...@4ax.com>,
> Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> I think my former neighbour had a 5 amp socket replaced by a 13 amp
>> socket to allow her to plug in the kettle without changing the plug.
>> My only consolation was that I assume the kettle was never left on
>> when there was no-one in the house.
>
> In those days. the two common cable sizes use for sockets were 3/029 and
> 7/029. Metric equivalents 1.5 and 2.5mm. I'd say 3/029 would handle 13
> amps OK for a very long time. Although the 5 amp fuse in the fusebox
> should have failed.
>

Perhaps she had 15A wire fitted to the fuse at the same time the socket
was changed.

--
Colin Bignell

[Scott]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 15:00:35 +0100, Mark Carver

We are talking about different functions. I was referring to a 15 amp
to 5 amp adapter at a time when small appliances had 5 amp plugs and
large appliances had 15 amp plugs but you may need to plug the heater
and the lamp into the same socket. .

[Scott]

I assume in photographic terms these would be two stops down from 60
watts.

[John Walliker]

https://www.smithsinterconnect.com/library/technical-library/technology/hyperboloid-technology/

John

[Scott]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 15:16:23 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <jhg9c9...@mid.individual.net>,
> Mark Carver <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> My grandmother's house until she moved out in 1980, had a glorious
>> mixture of 13A, 15A, and 5A sockets.
>
>Wot - no 2 pin ones too? 15 and 5 amps came in 2 and three pin versions.
>But a two pin wouldn't fit a three pin socket. Or rather mostly.
>
>> The living room had 13 and 15A wired side by side. She powered her iron
>> from a bayonet adaptor in the back room pendant bulb socket.
>
>When I re-wired my parents house, the round pin sockets were all in the
>skirting boards. Which were pretty small too. The new sockets all went in
>the walls at recommended height. Left the old (now disconnected) until
>they could be removed and holes filled in at re-decoration time. I changed
>the plugs on every appliance I could find to 13 amp.
> A couple of years later, got a call from my mother. Her sewing machine
>wouldn't work. I'd missed changing the plug on that and she'd plugged it
>into an old socket which hadn't been removed by then. And moaned about how
>inconvenient the only round pin socket she could still find was.

My granny had a two pin socket on the floor rather than the skirting
board. One day curiosity got the better of me and I was rewarded with
240 Volts.

[Scott]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 15:17:20 +0100, Joe <j...@jretrading.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 03:44:45 -0700 (PDT)
>Andy Dingley <teapo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 09:52:20 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> > Why did the UK change from round pin to square pin plugs? Fuses and
>> > sleeves could have been added to the round ones just as easily.
>>
>> Better contacts.
>>
>> The original round pin design was made on an automatic turret lathe,
>> then the pins sawn and bent outwards to give them some limited spring
>> pressure. The recetacles were made similarly. For square pins, the
>> pin was harder to make (milling is trickier to automate than round
>> turning), but the contact springs were now in the receptacles, formed
>> from a bent flat strip spring. These could give much better contact
>> force. This massively reduced the risk of poor contacts, overheating
>> and fires when used for high currents.
>>
>> The US had gone a similar route, but went to pins made of folded thin
>> sheet.
>
>Round pins are better, if the socket is of the correct type. Even
>sprung flat contacts against flat pins only make contact at a few
>points. Neither surface is completely flat, nor are they guaranteed to
>be parallel.

Yes, I thought Schuko was considered to provide better contact. The
same cannot be said about Europlugs.

[hgt]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 22:14:03 +1000, Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 11:31:36 +0100, Mark Carver
> <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 22/06/2022 11:12, Colin Bignell wrote:

>>> On 22/06/2022 09:52, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> Why did the UK change from round pin to square pin plugs? Fuses and
>>>> sleeves could have been added to the round ones just as easily.
>>>

>>> To make the plugs and sockets from two different wiring systems
>>> incompatible.
>>>

>> My grandmother's house until she moved out in 1980, had a glorious
>> mixture of 13A, 15A, and 5A sockets.

>> The living room had 13 and 15A wired side by side. She powered her iron
>> from a bayonet adaptor in the back room pendant bulb socket.
>

> Was there a day when electricity for lighting was cheaper than
> electricity for sockets making it cheaper to plug the iron into the
> light fitting?

No, that would need 2 meters at that time.

The reason the light socket was used for stuff like ironing was
because at that time there were very few normal sockets of any
type in most rooms but there was almost always a light socket.

[Animal]

On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 10:20:06 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 22/06/2022 10:07, jon wrote:

> > On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:52:14 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >
> >> Why did the UK change from round pin to square pin plugs? Fuses and
> >> sleeves could have been added to the round ones just as easily.
> >
> >

> > To keep people in work.
> No. Because it is easier to manufacture a true pair of self-wiping
> contacts that cover a wide area, against a flat bar, than against a
> round pin.
>
> the 13A design was all about safety, not jobs for the boys. That came
> later, with the labour governments.

There were multiple reasons for the move to BS1363 square pin system.
The old round pin system was recognised in the 40s to be thoroughly inconvenient, inadequate for increasing numbers of appliances, unsafe and frankly insane. It was a whole pile of unnecessary problems by design, plus there were lots of unsafe plugs, sockets, adaptors etc in use.

At the heart of the square pin system was the ring circuit. It enabled unlimited sockets to be fitted on just one ring of cable, on 1, 2 or 4 fuses. This was a huge money and material saving over a round pin radial setup with the same number of sockets, which mattered after the war. Also old 15A radials could be upgraded to add unlimited sockets relatively cheaply.

To put existing round pin plugs on such circuits is not safe. A lamp with a bellwire or speaker wire mains lead on a 2A plug & socket on a 32A fused ring is not ok. If the same sockets were used, this would be the inevitable common result. A different plug system was needed.

The new plug system was designed to be far safer than the crazy round pin system. It also had the desired effect of gradually taking all those round pin hazards out of service. If you've ever used round pin kit you'll know how bad it often was. Kicking plugs to get the pins to make contact was common practice for example. There were wooden plugs & adaptors, some with touchable live tubes. Irons & heaters on BC plugs were common etc.

IMHO it's time today to revisit the system to improve it a bit. 2 pin BS1363 variant moulded-only plugs could be added, enabling use of 3 appliances per single faceplate, 4 or 6 per double.

[hgt]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 23:34:42 +1000, Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 05:57:18 -0700 (PDT), Andy Dingley
> <teapo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 13:14:06 UTC+1, Scott wrote:

>>> Was there a day when electricity for lighting was cheaper than
>>> electricity for sockets making it cheaper to plug the iron into the
>>> light fitting?
>>

>> No, but fixed heating was (at one time) cheaper.
>>
>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Extension_to_supply_%28West_Gloucestershire_Power_Company%29.jpg
>>
>> AFAIK, lighting and 'appliances' have always been the same rate.
>
> I am sure this has to be right as otherwise two meters would be needed.

Yep.

> However, I am sure I heard the story somewhere, maybe urban
> myth (along with the need to switch off sockets when not in use to
> stop the electricity leaking out through the holes and increasing the
> electricity bill).

Not very surprising that that applies to water taps and is applied
to the new fangled electricity that most don't understand.

[Owain Lastname]

On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 19:18:10 UTC+1, Animal wrote:
> IMHO it's time today to revisit the system to improve it a bit. 2 pin BS1363
> variant moulded-only plugs could be added, enabling use of 3 appliances
> per single faceplate, 4 or 6 per double.

No, because:
(a) that would probably not have space for the fuse, which is essential
(b) that would not have the earth pin, which is required for opening the shutters and why even double-insulated power supply plugs have a plastic 'earth' pin
(c) 2-pin plugs compatible with 3-pin sockets would not be polarised, which is required to ensure the switch and the central stud of ES lampholders are always in the live
(d) you'd end up with 2-pin plugs that couldn't be used in 3-pin sockets and 3-pin plugs that couldn't be used in 2-pin sockets, and loads of adapters. Not having every socket having an earth would put us back to USA standards where they still have loads of old 2-prong outlets

Owain

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 00:17:20 +1000, Joe <j...@jretrading.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 03:44:45 -0700 (PDT)
> Andy Dingley <teapo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 09:52:20 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> > Why did the UK change from round pin to square pin plugs? Fuses and
>> > sleeves could have been added to the round ones just as easily.
>>
>> Better contacts.
>>
>> The original round pin design was made on an automatic turret lathe,
>> then the pins sawn and bent outwards to give them some limited spring
>> pressure. The recetacles were made similarly. For square pins, the
>> pin was harder to make (milling is trickier to automate than round
>> turning), but the contact springs were now in the receptacles, formed
>> from a bent flat strip spring. These could give much better contact
>> force. This massively reduced the risk of poor contacts, overheating
>> and fires when used for high currents.
>>
>> The US had gone a similar route, but went to pins made of folded thin
>> sheet.
`
> Round pins are better, if the socket is of the correct type.

Not convinced.

> Even sprung flat contacts against flat pins only make contact at a few
> points. Neither surface is completely flat, nor are they guaranteed to
> be parallel.

But it is even worse with a round pin with the pin split
going into a round hole. just two contact points.

> One type of low-resistance socket uses round pins and multiple
> spring wires in the mating socket, tilted sideways at a small angle, so
> they are tangent to the pin. So the pin potentially makes contact at as
> many points as there are wires.

But that isnt how round pin power sockets are done.

> Not entirely practical for the domestic market.

So completely academic with mains socket standards.

[Peeler]

On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 04:53:42 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 88-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

[Dave W]

>On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:52:14 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>
>> Why did the UK change from round pin to square pin plugs? Fuses and
>> sleeves could have been added to the round ones just as easily.
>
>

Not compulsorily.
--
Dave W

[Peeler]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 20:48:06 +0100, Dave W, another troll-feeding senile
SHITHEAD, driveled:


> Not compulsorily.

Unlike your troll-feeding, you troll-feeding senile SHITHEAD?

[SteveW]

b) is not actually correct ... MK sockets don't use the Earth pin to
open the shutters. They pivot the shutter at the centre and have a ramp
on each side of the shutter so that the Live and Neutral pins press on
the ramps and cause the shutter to rotate, with one side going upwards
and the other going downwards in the vertical plane. They will work with
wall-warts where the Earth pin has been broken off.

[John Rumm]

On 22/06/2022 15:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article <ms76bhl6f1hppd9qs...@4ax.com>,
> Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> I think my former neighbour had a 5 amp socket replaced by a 13 amp
>> socket to allow her to plug in the kettle without changing the plug.
>> My only consolation was that I assume the kettle was never left on
>> when there was no-one in the house.
>
> In those days. the two common cable sizes use for sockets were 3/029 and
> 7/029. Metric equivalents 1.5 and 2.5mm. I'd say 3/029 would handle 13
> amps OK for a very long time. Although the 5 amp fuse in the fusebox
> should have failed.

A BS3036 re-wireable fuse with 5A wire will supply a tad over 9A
continuously. So fine with a 2kW kettle. (3kW ought to blow it in about
5 secs).

1.5mm^2 in clipped direct or embedded in masonry will take 20A
continuously.




--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Animal]

On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 19:46:45 UTC+1, Owain Lastname wrote:
> On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 19:18:10 UTC+1, Animal wrote:
> > IMHO it's time today to revisit the system to improve it a bit. 2 pin BS1363
> > variant moulded-only plugs could be added, enabling use of 3 appliances
> > per single faceplate, 4 or 6 per double.
> No, because:
> (a) that would probably not have space for the fuse, which is essential

incorrect

> (b) that would not have the earth pin, which is required for opening the shutters and why even double-insulated power supply plugs have a plastic 'earth' pin

some sockets use it for that, some don't. shutters opened by LN pins only have been with us for many decades.

> (c) 2-pin plugs compatible with 3-pin sockets would not be polarised,

correct. Figure of 8 leads are & many other loads are not polarised.

> which is required to ensure the switch and the central stud of ES lampholders are always in the live

obviously mfrs would not fit them to ES luminaires.

> (d) you'd end up with 2-pin plugs that couldn't be used in 3-pin sockets

some existing sockets would require a plastic pin to insert the 2pin plugs. The user has 3 options:
1. get a plastic pin
2. update your sockets
3. fit a 3 pin plug

> and 3-pin plugs that couldn't be used in 2-pin sockets,

No. The new socket layout has 5 or 7 holes rather than 3. It takes either 1x 3 pin or 2 or 3x 2pin plugs.

> and loads of adapters.

no need for any. The point is it would reduce adaptor use.

> Not having every socket having an earth would put us back to USA standards where they still have loads of old 2-prong outlets

All sockets would still take 3 pin plugs without exception.

[Scott]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 11:18:05 -0700 (PDT), Animal <tabb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I don't disagree with what you say. I like the system.

However, if the argument was as persuasive as this, why did other
countries (with minor exceptions) not follow and why is Schuko and its
variants so widely used today?

[John Walliker]

b) used to be correct. I have seen plenty of older MK sockets where the
shutter is opened by the earth pin alone. There are lots of other makes
that still do it that way.

John

[The Natural Philosopher]

yes.


--
“Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

– Ludwig von Mises

[Max Demian]

Yeah and with a 3-way BC adapter Mrs. could watch TV while ironing in
the evening!

--
Max Demian

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <t8vbh9$au0$1...@dont-email.me>,

But that was a 13 amp plug, designed to be used with an ordinary ring
main, with a matching socket. Very common in council houses at one time.
No idea why.

--
*Failure is not an option. It's bundled with your software.

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <f3a8bhln1bp2a65cq...@4ax.com>,

Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> However, if the argument was as persuasive as this, why did other
> countries (with minor exceptions) not follow and why is Schuko and its
> variants so widely used today?

Gawd knows. The fittings look incredibly ugly compared to the best 13 amp.

Just foreigners with no taste. ;-)

--
*If I throw a stick, will you leave?

[Robert]

And the adapters often had a switch as well !

[Scott]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 20:48:06 +0100, Dave W <dave...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

I see BS1363 (square pin plugs) was introduced in 1947 for AC only
(according to Wikipedia). Were there any DC supplies left by the?
What plugs would they use?

[Owain Lastname]

On Thursday, 23 June 2022 at 21:41:48 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
> I see BS1363 (square pin plugs) was introduced in 1947 for AC only
> (according to Wikipedia). Were there any DC supplies left by the?
> What plugs would they use?

Cardiff used to have both AC and DC public supplies, but by 1969 the only customers using DC were the municipal trolleybus system and the university's electrical power engineering lab. The benches had the special (Walsall gauge) 13A sockets where the pins were rotated 90 degrees for the 240V DC mains and AFAIR the macines lab had a 660V supply for operating DC motors.
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1074059&postcount=14

From Wikipedia: quoted elsewhere in that thread

"The Central Electricity Generating Board in the UK continued to maintain a 200 volt DC generating station at Bankside Power Station on the River Thames in London as late as 1981. It exclusively powered DC printing machinery in Fleet Street, then the heart of the UK's newspaper industry. It was decommissioned later in 1981 when the newspaper industry moved into the developing docklands area further down the river (using modern AC-powered equipment)."

A quick scan of the Electricity Supply handbook for 1965, shows a number of London districts, e.g. Acton South, Battersea, Hounslow, and others being supplied with 230/415V 3 wire DC. Other examples are Middlesborough and York, 230V 2 wire, and Nottingham, 200/400V 3 wire.
There are many others. I am sure I can remember a DC supply being maintained, by a rotary converter, in Wrecsam, North Wales at least until the late 1950s, for the benefit of local engineering firms with DC welding sets.
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showpost.php?p=249114&postcount=2

Owain

[Animal]

The ring system has clear advantages on cost & safety, yet close to no-one outside the UK understands how it works or what its upsides are. I find that strange but there it is.
Our plugs are bulky compared to most countries, and using radials they don't need the plug fuse, so ours don't suit radial systems particularly well. And ours are a hazard to feet.

[Animal]

Both types are common, the earth pin operated ones more so. The MK LN pin operated ones are out of patent now.

[Animal]

Round pin and BC adaptors were in a lot of cases infinitely stackable. And occasionally excessively stacked. BS1363 gauge adaptors are specifically designed to not be stackable as one of the safety features of the 1363 system.

[Animal]

DC mains was still quite common into the 60s. I don't know about plugs, I just assumed they used the usual round pin ones.

[Andy Dingley]

On Thursday, 23 June 2022 at 22:16:17 UTC+1, Owain Lastname wrote:

> A quick scan of the Electricity Supply handbook for 1965, shows a number of London districts, e.g. Acton South, Battersea, Hounslow, and others being supplied with 230/415V 3 wire DC.

Wasn't Reading another late survivor for DC?

Several locations had DC supplies maintained for lifting bridges, dockyard cranes and similar large motors. They often didn't appear in the main records because it wasn't a public supply, but there were a variety of odd deals between generators and consumers (often dockyards) to avoid the cost of remotoring or installing rectifiers.

[Scott]

On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 15:21:28 -0700 (PDT), Animal <tabb...@gmail.com>

I am still finding it difficult to follow the concept of radial
circuits. If there are 10 sockets in the kitchen, does each have its
own cable run to the consumer unit and its own fuse there? Do all the
cables run in a single conduit of does each run separately? This
would require a maze of cabling and a vast number of fuses.

I suppose the way round it would be to have one main socket and lots
of extensions, but this would be less safe than our system. How would
the user know which was the main socket for high current appliances?
Two appliances could bring down a 16 amp fuse.

[Scott]

On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 15:23:53 -0700 (PDT), Animal <tabb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

What stops them being stacked horizontally? I have seen this in the
home of an electrical engineer (retired).

[Scott]

On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 15:25:04 -0700 (PDT), Animal <tabb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Would it be fair to say there were not very many AC only appliances
then?

Would 13A plugs be prohibited in any rewiring?

[Clive Arthur]

On 23/06/2022 15:36, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <t8vbh9$au0$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Harry Bloomfield Esq <a...@harrym1byt.plus.com> wrote:
>> Scott formulated the question :
>>> I think you might struggle to fit a fuse to a 5 amp plug.
>
>> No, there was a version of the plug which used round pins and the pins
>> were actually the fuses.
>
> But that was a 13 amp plug, designed to be used with an ordinary ring
> main, with a matching socket. Very common in council houses at one time.
> No idea why.
>

They were also used in the older studios in Broadcasting House some 45
plus years ago. The idea was to separate the studio supply from the
'domestic' supply so you couldn't plug a vacuum cleaner into the studio
supply. I seem to recall that newer studios used almost normal 13A
'square' pin plugs with the earth pin rotated for the same reason.

--
Cheers
Clive

[hgt]

On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 19:35:06 +1000, Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

Yes.

> If there are 10 sockets in the kitchen, does each have its
> own cable run to the consumer unit and its own fuse there?

No, with GPOs you can have a number of outlets on each radial.

Same with lights.

> Do all the cables

There is no all the cables.

> run in a single conduit of does each run separately?

No, even when there is more than 1 radial and there certainly normally are.

> This would require a maze of cabling and a vast number of fuses.

No, because there are always more than one GPO on each radial
except for big stuff like the stove etc.

> I suppose the way round it would be to have one main socket and lots
> of extensions, but this would be less safe than our system.

No it is not. The fuse or circuit breaker trips or blows when the current
rating of the cable is exceeded.

> How would
> the user know which was the main socket for high current appliances?

The GPOs all have the same rating.

> Two appliances could bring down a 16 amp fuse.

Yes and that does happen when you put two fan heaters
or two high current kitchen appliances on the same radial.

[Scott]

I am less subtle. I have a red socket for the computer (on its own
circuit). .

[Scott]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Where is the logic of adding a
number of sockets to a spur rather than completing the circle as a
ring?

[hgt]

On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 20:44:18 +1000, Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk>

The plugs don't need to be fused and it is immediately obvious
if there is any break in the radial and easy to find where that is
and the wire used in the radial can have a lower cross section
and so is more flexible because it has a lower current rating.

[Scott]

Why does the wire used in a radial have a lower cross section? I
understood a ring had a lower cross section because the current was
split between two paths (indeed, I though the original purpose of the
ring main design was to reduce use of copper at the end of the war).

I am not saying the continentals should have a 32 amp ring. What I am
asking is - if they have 10 outlets on one radial - why not complete
the circle? Obviously, the fuse would have to remain at 16 amps
because of the design of the plugs (although I understand that a
europlug is rated at 2.5 amps and still given a 16 amp fuse).

[Peeler]

On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 20:15:21 +1000, hgt, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
Tim+ about trolling Rodent Speed:
He is by far the most persistent troll who seems to be able to get under the
skin of folk who really should know better. Since when did arguing with a
troll ever achieve anything (beyond giving the troll pleasure)?
MID: <1421057667.659518815.743...@news.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 21:26:08 +1000, hgt, better known as cantankerous

trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

David Plowman about senile Rodent Speed's trolling:
"Wodney is doing a lot of morphing these days. Must be even more desperate
than usual for attention."
MID: <59a60da...@davenoise.co.uk>

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <t941hn$add$1...@dont-email.me>,

BBC TV was the same. Later version was known as Walsall gauge - all the
pins were rotated 90 degrees. Think LT used those for 110v.

--
*If I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <mg1bbhpi5oskaen2r...@4ax.com>,

Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >DC mains was still quite common into the 60s. I don't know about plugs, I just assumed they used the usual round pin ones.

> Would it be fair to say there were not very many AC only appliances
> then?

I'd say most radios were AC only by then. Having a mains transformer.
Although universal types still around.

--
*If you think this van is dirty, you should try having sex with the driver*

[hgt]

On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 22:05:57 +1000, Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk>

Because the maximum current thru it is less than half of that in a ring.

> I understood a ring had a lower cross section because the current was
> split between two paths (indeed, I though the original purpose of the
> ring main design was to reduce use of copper at the end of the war).

Less copper is used in a ring because there are only 2 connections
to the CU. There is a connection to the CU for each radial and a lot
more radials than there would be with a ring.

> I am not saying the continentals should have a 32 amp ring. What I am
> asking is - if they have 10 outlets on one radial - why not complete
> the circle?

Because that would use more cable than a radial.

> Obviously, the fuse would have to remain at 16 amps
> because of the design of the plugs (although I understand that a
> europlug is rated at 2.5 amps and still given a 16 amp fuse).

In that case the fuse is protecting the cable to the GPO, not the cable
between the GPO and the appliance has a fuse with all except lights.

[SteveW]

They can install rings if they want (we checked when we were wiring a
holiday home, in France in the early '90s), but they are used to spurs
and probably won't change from what they know.

[SteveW]

Since the late '70s, early '80s (IIRC) it has not mattered anyway, as
the adapters are required to be fused themselves, so the first in the
chain will protect them all.

[Scott]

That's only if it has been artificially limited to 16 amps (in a
continental system AIUI). If you stick with the 16 amp fuse then
surely the cable in a ring would be thinner because the current has
two paths to the consumer unit? I thought this saving of copper was
the motivation for the change in the first place.

>
>> I understood a ring had a lower cross section because the current was
>> split between two paths (indeed, I though the original purpose of the
>> ring main design was to reduce use of copper at the end of the war).
>
>Less copper is used in a ring because there are only 2 connections
>to the CU. There is a connection to the CU for each radial and a lot
>more radials than there would be with a ring.

Quite. This is the point I am making. Why do the continentals have
long 16 amp radials instead of a ring? Where is the benefit of a
radial circuit when someone has said it would only take two heaters
(or similar) to crash it out?

>
>> I am not saying the continentals should have a 32 amp ring. What I am
>> asking is - if they have 10 outlets on one radial - why not complete
>> the circle?
>
>Because that would use more cable than a radial.

I thought we agreed a ring used less cable.

>
>> Obviously, the fuse would have to remain at 16 amps
>> because of the design of the plugs (although I understand that a
>> europlug is rated at 2.5 amps and still given a 16 amp fuse).
>
>In that case the fuse is protecting the cable to the GPO, not the cable
>between the GPO and the appliance has a fuse with all except lights.

You are confusing me entirely now. Are you saying that all appliances
(except lights) fitted with a europlug (Type C) have an internal fuse?
Do they make a special 2.5 amp fuse? Is this replaceable or do they
just throw away the appliance if a fuse blows? How can it be 'except
lights' anyway. Lamps can fail too and it would be fairly bad news to
pump 16 amps through a 2.5 amp plug.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 25 Jun 2022 03:14:53 +1000, hgt, better known as cantankerous

trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 88-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

[hgt]

On Sat, 25 Jun 2022 03:39:57 +1000, Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk>

Nothing artificial about it, the radial system for GPOs
specifies how many GPOs are allowed on each radial.

> If you stick with the 16 amp fuse then
> surely the cable in a ring would be thinner because the current has
> two paths to the consumer unit?

No, because the ring has all the GPOs on it and
so needs to carry much more than 15A to be viable.

> I thought this saving of copper was
> the motivation for the change in the first place.

Yes, but it saves copper by only having two connections to the
CU instead of one for each radial. And having twice the current
carrying capacity doesn't double the amount of copper used.

>>> I understood a ring had a lower cross section because the current was
>>> split between two paths (indeed, I though the original purpose of the
>>> ring main design was to reduce use of copper at the end of the war).
>>
>> Less copper is used in a ring because there are only 2 connections
>> to the CU. There is a connection to the CU for each radial and a lot
>> more radials than there would be with a ring.
>
> Quite. This is the point I am making. Why do the continentals have
> long 16 amp radials instead of a ring?

Because they didn't care about the extra copper needed.

> Where is the benefit of a
> radial circuit when someone has said it would only take two heaters
> (or similar) to crash it out?

The benefit is with the other benefits I listed.

>>> I am not saying the continentals should have a 32 amp ring. What I am
>>> asking is - if they have 10 outlets on one radial - why not complete
>>> the circle?
>>
>> Because that would use more cable than a radial.
>
> I thought we agreed a ring used less cable.

You don't have just the one radial instead of one ring.

>>> Obviously, the fuse would have to remain at 16 amps
>>> because of the design of the plugs (although I understand that a
>>> europlug is rated at 2.5 amps and still given a 16 amp fuse).
>>
>> In that case the fuse is protecting the cable to the GPO, not the cable
>> between the GPO and the appliance has a fuse with all except lights.
>
> You are confusing me entirely now.

Yes,

> Are you saying that all appliances
> (except lights) fitted with a europlug (Type C) have an internal fuse?

Or something similar like a thermal cutout. Often seen in fan heaters.

> Do they make a special 2.5 amp fuse?

Don't need one.

> Is this replaceable

Usually.

> or do they just throw away the appliance if a fuse blows?

Not often. Some stuff like TVs and set top boxes etc do
have a soldered on pcb fuse which can be replaced.

> How can it be 'except lights' anyway.

Because that is how the system evolved. It started with lights.

> Lamps can fail too

Yes, and can short too.

> and it would be fairly bad news to
> pump 16 amps through a 2.5 amp plug.

Not when it takes out the CU fuse or trips the breaker quite quickly.

And not all lights have 2.5 amp plugs, most plug into normal GPO sockets.