NatWest - home card reader?

[Harry Bloomfield]

Yesterday evening, I decided to make a transfer from my NatWest
account, to a TSB account, via online banking. A transfer I have never
made before, so it involved setting up a 'new recipient'. I filled in
all the details on the popup panel which appeared, but there was no
visible 'next' or 'accept' button on the panel. It might have been
below the screen, but there was no way to scroll down.

That left me stumped, so I rang their phone banking number. Indian guy
answers who was very difficult to understand, but I explained what I
was trying to do and the place where I was getting stuck. He wittered
on about it couldn't be done, without a home card reader gadget. I then
asked if he could implement the cash transfer for me, first he said no,
not unless I had the reader, then seemed to change his mind.

He managed it by sending a four digit code to my phone, me then reading
the digits back to him.

All very confusing, but it worked in the end. Has anyone heard of
NatWest's card readers? Why could I not progress with the online
banking, entering a new recipient?

[GB]

I have one of their card readers. The system works very well, and it
certainly beats a call to CS.

I'm pretty sure that you can order one online, but otherwise call CS again.

[Harry Bloomfield]

GB wrote on 07/03/2018 :
> I have one of their card readers. The system works very well, and it
> certainly beats a call to CS.
>
> I'm pretty sure that you can order one online, but otherwise call CS again.

Thanks, reader ordered and yes it can be ordered via online banking..

[Robin]

On 07/03/2018 14:25, GB wrote:

>>
>> All very confusing, but it worked in the end. Has anyone heard of
>> NatWest's card readers? Why could I not progress with the online
>> banking, entering a new recipient?

I've had one for 10+ years. Didn't think you could set up a payee
online without one.

> I have one of their card readers. The system works very well, and it
> certainly beats a call to CS.
>
> I'm pretty sure that you can order one online,

You can


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[Tim+]

Um, pretty sure you should have received a home card reader when you set up
online banking. It’s a pretty integral part of the security system.

Yes, you can do some stuff without it but my BS (Nationwide, which uses the
same card readers) requires it for setting up new payments.

> Why could I not progress with the online
> banking, entering a new recipient?

It’s just another level of fraud protection. By generating codes that can’t
be intercepted it makes it very hard for anyone without both your card,
your card reader and your account log in details to carry out any serious
fraud.

Gullible users and phishing emails make account details and login
names/passwords *relatively* easy to get hold of but without the card and
card reader, a third party accessing your account could only, at worst, pay
someone you’ve paid before, not transfer funds to a new account.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

[Harry Bloomfield]

Robin presented the following explanation :

> I've had one for 10+ years. Didn't think you could set up a payee online
> without one.

You can/could with the Halifax, it would send you a four digit code as
a text, which you then typed into online banking.

I was able to set up a new payee in NatWest, by a similar process, but
only whilst actually talking to them on the phone, reading the texted
code back.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Martin has brought this to us :
> I'd go to your local bank branch and ask them for help. If you have given
> somebody your password change it quick.
>
> --

There was no such issues, I just needed to transfer a lump of funds
from my Natwest account, to a TSB account.

The telephone banking op, mentioned I could have popped into branch to
make the transfer.

[S Viemeister]

On 3/7/2018 9:49 AM, Martin wrote:

> I'd go to your local bank branch and ask them for help. If you have given
> somebody your password change it quick.
>

That's going to be difficult for many people.
RBS has announced the closing of my nearest branch (5 miles away),
probably by the end of the year. The next nearest branches of ANY bank,
are either 40 miles east or 100 miles south.

[Martin Brown]

On 07/03/2018 14:21, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

> He managed it by sending a four digit code to my phone, me then reading
> the digits back to him.
>
> All very confusing, but it worked in the end. Has anyone heard of
> NatWest's card readers? Why could I not progress with the online
> banking, entering a new recipient?

Yes. I have one in front of me now. It looks like any other banks home
card reader except in Natwest colours and with a red Natwest logo on the
front. You need it to initiate any new or novel online transfers.

No idea when they switched it on but at least 3 years ago.

Looks to be identical to the Nationwide one apart from the colour of the
plastic and the type of cards it will accept. They are annoyingly brand
specific so you can't just use another banks - it says "wrong card".

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Brian Gaff]

Yes a lot of these devices have been in the news again recently for
discriminating against blind users. the last time this happened on the
earlier keypad devices they Were forced to bring out talking keypads.
sounds like we are doing it all again for card readers now. lessons will not
be learned of course.
And people wonder why we don't want to use online banking.
Recently a minor change on the halifax web site, completely invisible to
the sighted completely ruined access by the blind to their accounts.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Harry Bloomfield" <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:p7oshs$b5a$1...@dont-email.me...

[jrwal...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 7 March 2018 15:03:54 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:

> Looks to be identical to the Nationwide one apart from the colour of the
> plastic and the type of cards it will accept. They are annoyingly brand
> specific so you can't just use another banks - it says "wrong card".
>

Not always. I used my Barclays one yesterday to validate a Lloyds
transaction.
John

[Martin Brown]

Nice of them to actually announce it. I found out one local branch had
closed when I tried to make an appointment to see the manager and was
told that no such branch existed. I knew it did - I had been in a month
before. Checking Manchester Evening News online showed it was a branch
they decided to suddenly close which sort of explains why I didn't know.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

How odd. I'd have believed Halifax since they are part of Lloyds now.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Reentrant]

On 07/03/2018 14:21, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

> ... NatWest home card reader gadget...

In theory you can use any bank's card reader with any banking app.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_Authentication_Program

" ...card readers issued by most, possibly all, UK banks conform to a
CAP subset defined by APACS, meaning that, in most cases, cards issued
by a UK bank can be used in a card reader issued by a different bank."


--
Reentrant

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <p7oshs$b5a$1...@dont-email.me>,

Harry Bloomfield <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> He managed it by sending a four digit code to my phone, me then reading
> the digits back to him.

> All very confusing, but it worked in the end. Has anyone heard of
> NatWest's card readers? Why could I not progress with the online
> banking, entering a new recipient?

Barclays have had similar for ages. They call it a PINSentry unit. Only
really needed for setting up a new payee from your account. Once you've
done that, you can then transfer money to that account without it, as
often as you like.

--
*Can fat people go skinny-dipping?

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Martin Brown]

They might but most of the ones I have check that the card is from the
bank that has its logo on the front. I know this experimentally.

They may follow the protocol but that doesn't mean they will accept
other bank cards (although it seems some Barclays are more tolerant).
I don't have one of them so can't test it.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Tim+]

Um, we have a NatWest one and a Nationwide one. They both generate the same
codes.

[Tim+]

Martin <m...@address.invalid> wrote:

> They are pin code specific accord
> ing to HSBC.

Maybe applies to the HSBC card reader but I can assure you that it makes no
difference which card reader I use to make a Nationwide payment, the
NatWest reader and the Nationwide one work identically when fed with the
same card/PIN.

[Tim Watts]

If you have another bank's, try that - my RBS reader works fine with
Nationwide.

[Martin Brown]

That one I can test. You are right the Natwest card reader appears to
not be locked to a specific bank. I will experiment more. It was about
to get thrown out since I no longer bank with them either. But now their
card reader would appear to have some utility as being generic.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Mark]

"Tim+" <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message

> It’s just another level of fraud protection. By generating codes that
> can’t
> be intercepted it makes it very hard for anyone without both your card,
> your card reader and your account log in details to carry out any serious
> fraud.

not much point in them "IF" you can use any card reader is there??

>> In theory you can use any bank's card reader with any banking app.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_Authentication_Program

-

[Martin Brown]

On 07/03/2018 16:48, Mark wrote:
> "Tim+" <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>

>> It’s just another level of fraud protection. By generating codes that
>> can’t

>> be intercepted it makes it very hard for anyone without both your card,
>> your card reader and your account log in details to carry out any serious
>> fraud.
>
> not much point in them "IF" you can use any card reader is there??

Yes. It means that you can prove to the bank that you have both the
physical card and the PIN. You enter a one time transaction code that
partly encodes the value of the transfer in pennies and it scrambles it
when you enter your PIN to give another code that you type in.

It means new transactions can only be set up by someone who has control
of both card and PIN (and sometimes mobile phone or landline as well).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

On 07/03/2018 16:39, Martin wrote:

> If google you can find out how to change the pin code if you need to.

I think yours must be different.

The Natwest card reader seems to work with several major UK bank cards
and any valid PIN. It baulks at Santanders cards though.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[whisky-dave]

Santander does use that sort of authenication they use passwords.
When I was with barclays they also seemed to work using the date and time in some way.

>
> --
> Regards,
> Martin Brown

[Tim+]

Martin <m...@address.invalid> wrote:

> Which makes it pin code specific.

Not sure what point you’re trying to make. One pin, one card works in
either machine. The card readers aren’t “paired” with a specific card, or
paired with a specific PIN. It’s only the cards that are paired with their
PIN. I would argue that this does not make the *reader* PIN code specific.

Incidentally, the link offered previously suggests that whilst many
machines are interchangeable, but HBOS isn’t one of them. Maybe HSBC is
also a “non-standard” one?

[Robin]

On 07/03/2018 17:08, Huge wrote:

> On 2018-03-07, Mark <Ma...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>>
>> "Tim+" <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>>> It’s just another level of fraud protection. By generating codes that
>>> can’t
>>> be intercepted it makes it very hard for anyone without both your card,
>>> your card reader and your account log in details to carry out any serious
>>> fraud.
>>
>> not much point in them "IF" you can use any card reader is there??
>

> Wrong. All the information is in the card. The reader is irrelevant.
>
>

One great advantage of the way any reader works with any card is that
the muggers can carry a reader to check that you have given them the
right pin for your card, so they no longer need to march people to the
cash machine ;)

[NY]

"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:p7ov0l$13es$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

I bank with Nat West and my wife banks with Barclays. We can use each
other's card readers - ie a NatWest reader will read a Barclays debit card
and vice versa.

I was told by the counter staff in my NatWest that this applies to all card
readers, but given other people's hit-and-miss experiences, it seems that
this isn't always the case...

[S Viemeister]

It was supposed to be closed much sooner, but there was a major campaign
to save it. I'm sure that they'll be much quieter next time, the way
Royal Mail was, when they eliminated our PostBus service.

[Andrew]

The non-backlit display on my Barclays version has got a bit dim,
so I went into the branch to complain and they just gave me
another one.

I inquired if it needed to be locked to my account, but apparently
they are generic, so if someone steals your card and knows your
pin, they can presumably still empty your account.

[GB]

On 07/03/2018 16:15, Tim Watts wrote:

And Co-op works with Natwest.

[GB]

On 07/03/2018 15:08, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Yes a lot of these devices have been in the news again recently for
> discriminating against blind users. the last time this happened on the
> earlier keypad devices they Were forced to bring out talking keypads.
> sounds like we are doing it all again for card readers now. lessons will not
> be learned of course.
> And people wonder why we don't want to use online banking.
> Recently a minor change on the halifax web site, completely invisible to
> the sighted completely ruined access by the blind to their accounts.
> Brian
>

Don't you have a reader that can tell you what an LCD display is showing?

[Andrew]

On 07/03/2018 15:49, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <p7oshs$b5a$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Harry Bloomfield <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>> He managed it by sending a four digit code to my phone, me then reading
>> the digits back to him.
>
>> All very confusing, but it worked in the end. Has anyone heard of
>> NatWest's card readers? Why could I not progress with the online
>> banking, entering a new recipient?
>
> Barclays have had similar for ages. They call it a PINSentry unit. Only
> really needed for setting up a new payee from your account. Once you've
> done that, you can then transfer money to that account without it, as
> often as you like.
>

Until all your payees mysteriously vanish and you have to set them
up all over again.

Happened to me last year. Never could understand Barclays 'explanation'.

[Scott]

I sent a cheque and credit slip to the address on my cheque book, only
to find that the branch had been closed and redirection had expired,

[Scott]

They certainly cope with changes in the last four digits of the card.
Barclays change the 16 digit number each time a new debit card is
issued and I can assure you this does not require a new Pinsentry
machine.

[Tim+]

Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

>
> I suggested a while ago that banks could setup a (opt-in ?) mechanism
> whereby entering the PIN backwards triggers an "insufficient funds"
> message - and a call to the local plod ?
>
>

Just like all the urban legends then? ;-). Not a bad idea, just never been
implemented.

http://urbanlegendsonline.com/pin-number-reversal/

[Tim+]

Andrew <Andrew9...@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
> On 07/03/2018 16:15, Tim Watts wrote:
>> On 07/03/18 14:46, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
>>> GB wrote on 07/03/2018 :
>>>> I have one of their card readers. The system works very well, and it
>>>> certainly beats a call to CS.
>>>>
>>>> I'm pretty sure that you can order one online, but otherwise call CS
>>>> again.
>>>
>>> Thanks, reader ordered and yes it can be ordered via online banking..
>>
>> If you have another bank's, try that - my RBS reader works fine with
>> Nationwide.
>
> The non-backlit display on my Barclays version has got a bit dim,
> so I went into the branch to complain and they just gave me
> another one.

Did you try a new battery? You can adjust the contrast on the
Nationwide/NatWest ones.

[Max Demian]

On 07/03/2018 18:13, Andrew wrote:
> On 07/03/2018 15:49, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> In article <p7oshs$b5a$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>     Harry Bloomfield <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>> He managed it by sending a four digit code to my phone, me then reading
>>> the digits back to him.
>>
>>> All very confusing, but it worked in the end. Has anyone heard of
>>> NatWest's card readers? Why could I not progress with the online
>>> banking, entering a new recipient?
>>
>> Barclays have had similar for ages. They call it a PINSentry unit. Only
>> really needed for setting up a new payee from your account.

You can use it to log into online banking as an alternative to the
"passcode/memorable word" method. You just need your debit card's PIN.

> Once you've
>> done that, you can then transfer money to that account without it, as
>> often as you like.

> Until all your payees mysteriously vanish and you have to set them
> up all over again.

I find it rather annoying that payees disappear after a year of
inaction. I only pay my water bill once a year so it tends to disappear
and I have to set it up again with the danger of getting it wrong.

--
Max Demian

[Harry Bloomfield]

on 07/03/2018, Andrew supposed :

> The non-backlit display on my Barclays version has got a bit dim,
> so I went into the branch to complain and they just gave me
> another one.
>
> I inquired if it needed to be locked to my account, but apparently
> they are generic, so if someone steals your card and knows your
> pin, they can presumably still empty your account.

So, anyone could borrow anyone else's reader and it should work,
certainly if it the same bank? There is nothing coded in the reader, to
the account?

[Scott]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 19:24:15 +0000, Max Demian <max_d...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

I thought it was 13 months for that very reason.

[Scott]

That's my understanding. I don't see this as an issue though because
it is the combination of the last four digits and the PIN that
generates the eight digit code. As long as you keep your PIN secret,
you are in much the same position as you would be at an ATM (which is
also not coded to any particular bank/account).

[Robin]

On 07/03/2018 19:24, Max Demian wrote:
<snip>

> I find it rather annoying that payees disappear after a year of
> inaction. I only pay my water bill once a year so it tends to disappear
> and I have to set it up again with the danger of getting it wrong.
>

I wonder if you are thinking of Direct Debits. A Direct Debit mandate
usually lapses after 12 months without use - to avoid the risk of
companies having vast numbers of mandates on their systems from past
customers.

Payees for online banking are different. I have had payees which went
unused for several years but then worked fine when needed.

[John Rumm]

The readers all implement the same standard crypto signing system, so
although the banks don't all use them in exactly the same way, the
machines themselves should be interchangeable. Its the chip on the card
combined with your pin that makes the thing unique.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Max Demian]

I haven't tried it, but I assume that entering the same 8-digit code on
a subsequent login occasion would generate an error, implying that the
bank stores all the previous codes. This means that it's no use to
someone who intercepts it for re-use. The "one-time password" system.

This contrasts with "two factor authentication" which assumes possession
of a specific object, such as the user's mobile phone (or a card reader
which *is* special to the user), plus a PIN or password.

There's also "challenge-response authentication" where the bank will
provide a code which has to be entered into a card reader - using the
"Respond" button on PINsentry.

That's just the impression I get of how it is supposed to work.

--
Max Demian

[John Rumm]

On 07/03/2018 16:48, Mark wrote:

> "Tim+" <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
>> It’s just another level of fraud protection. By generating codes that
>> can’t
>> be intercepted it makes it very hard for anyone without both your card,
>> your card reader and your account log in details to carry out any serious
>> fraud.
>
> not much point in them "IF" you can use any card reader is there??

The point of 2FA (two factor authentication) is that it requires two
separate stages in the security. In this case it verifies something you
know - i.e. account details, password, and bank card PIN etc, and also
verifies something you physically have - i.e. your bank card.

The reader is just a mechanism to allow you to safely transmit securely
something that proves you are in possession of the card - itself it does
not form part of the authentication since they are all the same.

[Max Demian]

With Barclays?

--
Max Demian

[Theo]

Tim+ <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Incidentally, the link offered previously suggests that whilst many
> machines are interchangeable, but HBOS isn’t one of them. Maybe HSBC is
> also a “non-standard” one?

HSBC Group's (HSBC, First Direct, M&S Bank, maybe some others)
two-factor-authentication device is not a card reader. They're a Vasco
Digipass - the device is keyed to your account and is used instead of a
card, not with it:
https://www.vasco.com/products/two-factor-authenticators/hardware/transaction-data-signing/pin-protected/digipass-270.html

Probably the most common EMV CAP (ie card readers) are made by Gemalto
(formerly Xiring):
https://www.gemalto.com/financial/ebanking/tokens
- these devices are mostly interchangeable. However you do need the EMV CAP
'app' on your card: you'll get a 'wrong card' or similar message if the card
has no CAP support. Generally, only cards that are used for online banking
have the CAP app - most credit cards, for instance, don't.

I don't think Lloyds Group (Lloyds, Halifax, Bank of Scotland) use card
readers or tokens, instead using codes sent by SMS - at least for consumer
banking.

(Many banks also rely on a mobile app as an alternative 2FA solution,
relying on passcodes or fingerprints to authenticate you to the app, and
then using that to generate login codes)

Theo

[Michael Chare]

On 07/03/2018 22:49, John Rumm wrote:
> On 07/03/2018 19:47, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
>> on 07/03/2018, Andrew supposed :
>>> The non-backlit display on my Barclays version has got a bit dim,
>>> so I went into the branch to complain and they just gave me
>>> another one.
>>>
>>> I inquired if it needed to be locked to my account, but apparently
>>> they are generic, so if someone steals your card and knows your
>>> pin, they can presumably still empty your account.
>>
>> So, anyone could borrow anyone else's reader and it should work,
>> certainly if it the same bank? There is nothing coded in the reader, to
>> the account?
>
> The readers all implement the same standard crypto signing system, so
> although the banks don't all use them in exactly the same way, the
> machines themselves should be interchangeable. Its the chip on the card
> combined with your pin that makes the thing unique.
>

I have 3 different ones and as far as I am aware they are completely
interchangeable. If I go on holiday I usually take the one belonging to
the least important a/c.

--
Michael Chare

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <p7p559$e9n$1...@dont-email.me>,

Mark <Ma...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> > It’s just another level of fraud protection. By generating codes
> > that can’t be intercepted it makes it very hard for anyone without
> > both your card, your card reader and your account log in details to
> > carry out any serious fraud.

> not much point in them "IF" you can use any card reader is there??

But you need your card and PIN?

--
*When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane *

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Martin Brown]

On 07/03/2018 21:13, Jethro_uk wrote:

It is the first two, four or six digits of the card that determine the
card issuer - every bank has a different IIN prefix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number#Issuer_identification_number_(IIN)

> Card numbers have a weak parity ... Luhn enconding ???

Indeed catches any single digit error and most transpositions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhn_algorithm

Based on what someone else has said I would be inclined to believe that
the cards intended to be used with an offline reader contain an app or
flag that isn't present on cards belonging to banks that don't use it.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Robin]

No, with 3 other banks.

I thought Barclays deleted payees after _13_ months of inaction (which
gives a month as leeway for "annual" payments such as a water bill).

[Martin Brown]

On 07/03/2018 16:10, Martin wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 07:35:06 -0800 (PST), jrwal...@gmail.com wrote:

>
>> On Wednesday, 7 March 2018 15:03:54 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
>>
>>> Looks to be identical to the Nationwide one apart from the colour of the
>>> plastic and the type of cards it will accept. They are annoyingly brand
>>> specific so you can't just use another banks - it says "wrong card".
>>>

>> Not always. I used my Barclays one yesterday to validate a Lloyds
>> transaction.
>> John
>
> They are pin code specific accord
> ing to HSBC.

That seems unlikely. I have more than one account with my bank and all
their cards work in the same card reader (different PINs).

Until recently HSBC used a magic clock 6 digit dongle device which was
user account linked but the new one is more like a card reader. I no
longer bank with them.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

On 07/03/2018 21:13, Robin wrote:

I have had some problems trying to figure out how to delete old ones for
eg. non-existent defunct credit cards. That has improved recently.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Bob Eager]

On Wed, 07 Mar 2018 14:21:49 +0000, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

> Yesterday evening, I decided to make a transfer from my NatWest account,
> to a TSB account, via online banking. A transfer I have never made
> before, so it involved setting up a 'new recipient'. I filled in all the
> details on the popup panel which appeared, but there was no visible
> 'next' or 'accept' button on the panel. It might have been below the
> screen, but there was no way to scroll down.
>
> That left me stumped, so I rang their phone banking number. Indian guy
> answers who was very difficult to understand, but I explained what I was
> trying to do and the place where I was getting stuck. He wittered on
> about it couldn't be done, without a home card reader gadget. I then
> asked if he could implement the cash transfer for me, first he said no,
> not unless I had the reader, then seemed to change his mind.

>
> He managed it by sending a four digit code to my phone, me then reading
> the digits back to him.
>
> All very confusing, but it worked in the end. Has anyone heard of
> NatWest's card readers? Why could I not progress with the online
> banking, entering a new recipient?

Click on the Security item on the left hand menu. There's then a link for
ordering a (free) card reader.

What the system does is give you a one-time code. The card reader reads
your card (and validates it with the PIN). Then you enter the one-time
code and get another back. That is entered on the bank site.

Proves you are in possession of card and PIN. Only needed for setting up
newv stuff, usually.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

[John Rumm]

On 07/03/2018 22:52, Max Demian wrote:
> On 07/03/2018 20:37, Scott wrote:
>> On Wed, 07 Mar 2018 19:47:51 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
>> <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> on 07/03/2018, Andrew supposed :
>>>> The non-backlit display on my Barclays version has got a bit dim,
>>>> so I went into the branch to complain and they just gave me
>>>> another one.
>>>>
>>>> I inquired if it needed to be locked to my account, but apparently
>>>> they are generic, so if someone steals your card and knows your
>>>> pin, they can presumably still empty your account.
>>>
>>> So, anyone could borrow anyone else's reader and it should work,
>>> certainly if it the same bank? There is nothing coded in the reader, to
>>> the account?
>>
>> That's my understanding. I don't see this as an issue though because
>> it is the combination of the last four digits and the PIN that
>> generates the eight digit code. As long as you keep your PIN secret,
>> you are in much the same position as you would be at an ATM (which is
>> also not coded to any particular bank/account).
>
> I haven't tried it, but I assume that entering the same 8-digit code on
> a subsequent login occasion would generate an error, implying that the
> bank stores all the previous codes. This means that it's no use to
> someone who intercepts it for re-use. The "one-time password" system.

Yes, you can only use each code once. You can pre-computer a few of them
and store them for later use. That will let you login without the
machine and card, but you still would not be able to authorise a new payee.

> This contrasts with "two factor authentication" which assumes possession
> of a specific object, such as the user's mobile phone (or a card reader
> which *is* special to the user), plus a PIN or password.

This *is* 2FA - the specific object you must possess is the bank card.
Without it, you can't use the card reader to generate a identification
code or to authorize a transaction.

[Andy Burns]

Martin wrote:

> They are pin code specific according to HSBC.

No, because for certain transactions in-branch, they will put your card
in their reader (same device as yours) and ask you to enter your pin
into it.

[John Rumm]

On 07/03/2018 17:48, NY wrote:
> "Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:p7ov0l$13es$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

>> On 07/03/2018 14:21, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

>>> He managed it by sending a four digit code to my phone, me then
>>> reading the digits back to him.
>>>
>>> All very confusing, but it worked in the end. Has anyone heard of
>>> NatWest's card readers? Why could I not progress with the online
>>> banking, entering a new recipient?
>>

>> Yes. I have one in front of me now. It looks like any other banks home
>> card reader except in Natwest colours and with a red Natwest logo on
>> the front. You need it to initiate any new or novel online transfers.
>>
>> No idea when they switched it on but at least 3 years ago.

>>
>> Looks to be identical to the Nationwide one apart from the colour of
>> the plastic and the type of cards it will accept. They are annoyingly
>> brand specific so you can't just use another banks - it says "wrong
>> card".
>

> I bank with Nat West and my wife banks with Barclays. We can use each
> other's card readers - ie a NatWest reader will read a Barclays debit
> card and vice versa.
>
> I was told by the counter staff in my NatWest that this applies to all
> card readers, but given other people's hit-and-miss experiences, it
> seems that this isn't always the case...

Some of the devices handed out for some banks are not actually card
readers, but real time secure token generators. They generate a code
based on the current time and the user's pin, but don't actually use the
card at all. In those cases the device itself is tied to the users
account and is not interchangeable.

[Michael Chare]

On 07/03/2018 15:03, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 07/03/2018 14:21, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
>> He managed it by sending a four digit code to my phone, me then
>> reading the digits back to him.
>>
>> All very confusing, but it worked in the end. Has anyone heard of
>> NatWest's card readers? Why could I not progress with the online
>> banking, entering a new recipient?
>
> Yes. I have one in front of me now. It looks like any other banks home
> card reader except in Natwest colours and with a red Natwest logo on the
> front. You need it to initiate any new or novel online transfers.
>
> No idea when they switched it on but at least 3 years ago.
>
> Looks to be identical to the Nationwide one apart from the colour of the
> plastic and the type of cards it will accept. They are annoyingly brand
> specific so you can't just use another banks - it says "wrong card".
>

What annoys me is that I can't use these devices to check a credit card pin.


--
Michael Chare

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <p7p9lj$1mlm$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

Andrew <Andrew9...@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
> I inquired if it needed to be locked to my account, but apparently
> they are generic, so if someone steals your card and knows your
> pin, they can presumably still empty your account.

True. Perhaps you shouldn't have your PIN written on the card?

--
*If at first you do succeed, try not to look too astonished.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <teb0add6gnkec85jv...@4ax.com>,
Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> I sent a cheque and credit slip to the address on my cheque book, only
> to find that the branch had been closed and redirection had expired,

Yup - I had that too, with Barclays. Asked at my local branch - not the
one I'd previously been assigned to - and couldn't really get a
satisfactory explanation. Or where I should post the odd cheque to in
future - they suggested using the paying in envelopes. Website not much
help either. Think the answer was simply post to any branch you have the
address for. Seemed odd. ;-)

When my nice convenient local branch closed, they wrote to me saying I was
being transferred to another. And not the closest one to me either. But by
that time I didn't much go to any branch anyway. But wasn't informed when
they closed that new branch, and given a another one as before.

--
*Save a tree, eat a beaver*

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <vnb0adlpk8o0u8i8f...@4ax.com>,

Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> They certainly cope with changes in the last four digits of the card.
> Barclays change the 16 digit number each time a new debit card is
> issued and I can assure you this does not require a new Pinsentry
> machine.

I have two current accounts with different cards and PIN for both. Same
PINsentry unit works with both.

--
*IF A TURTLE DOESN'T HAVE A SHELL, IS HE HOMELESS OR NAKED?

[Scott]

On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:17:56 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <teb0add6gnkec85jv...@4ax.com>,
> Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> I sent a cheque and credit slip to the address on my cheque book, only
>> to find that the branch had been closed and redirection had expired,
>
>Yup - I had that too, with Barclays. Asked at my local branch - not the
>one I'd previously been assigned to - and couldn't really get a
>satisfactory explanation. Or where I should post the odd cheque to in
>future - they suggested using the paying in envelopes. Website not much
>help either. Think the answer was simply post to any branch you have the
>address for. Seemed odd. ;-)
>
>When my nice convenient local branch closed, they wrote to me saying I was
>being transferred to another. And not the closest one to me either. But by
>that time I didn't much go to any branch anyway. But wasn't informed when
>they closed that new branch, and given a another one as before.

Mine's bizarre too. I got a new sort code as part of the ring-fencing
(as I assume you did). However, despite me being a modest retail
customer they have given me an address of Corporate Banking at
Churchill Place. I am of course happy with that. I can tell people I
am now a corporation.

[Scott]

On Thu, 8 Mar 2018 09:04:43 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 07/03/2018 16:10, Martin wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 07:35:06 -0800 (PST), jrwal...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, 7 March 2018 15:03:54 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
>>>
>>>> Looks to be identical to the Nationwide one apart from the colour of the
>>>> plastic and the type of cards it will accept. They are annoyingly brand
>>>> specific so you can't just use another banks - it says "wrong card".
>>>>
>>> Not always. I used my Barclays one yesterday to validate a Lloyds
>>> transaction.
>>> John
>>
>> They are pin code specific accord
>> ing to HSBC.
>
>That seems unlikely. I have more than one account with my bank and all
>their cards work in the same card reader (different PINs).

I tested mine with my Barclaycard and it produced produced a code, so
they cannot be account specific.

[Scott]

As I mentioned above, I tested mine with my Barclaycard and it worked
okay.

[Scott]

On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 12:15:35 +0100, Martin <m...@address.invalid> wrote:

>On Wed, 07 Mar 2018 19:47:51 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
><harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>on 07/03/2018, Andrew supposed :
>>> The non-backlit display on my Barclays version has got a bit dim,
>>> so I went into the branch to complain and they just gave me
>>> another one.
>>>

>>> I inquired if it needed to be locked to my account, but apparently
>>> they are generic, so if someone steals your card and knows your
>>> pin, they can presumably still empty your account.
>>

>>So, anyone could borrow anyone else's reader and it should work,
>>certainly if it the same bank? There is nothing coded in the reader, to
>>the account?
>

>HSBC's are set up with the users PIN code in it.

I thought best practice was to change passwords/codes every month?

[Martin Brown]

On 08/03/2018 11:38, Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 12:15:35 +0100, Martin <m...@address.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 07 Mar 2018 19:47:51 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
>> <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> on 07/03/2018, Andrew supposed :
>>>> The non-backlit display on my Barclays version has got a bit dim,
>>>> so I went into the branch to complain and they just gave me
>>>> another one.
>>>>
>>>> I inquired if it needed to be locked to my account, but apparently
>>>> they are generic, so if someone steals your card and knows your
>>>> pin, they can presumably still empty your account.

You are not supposed to share your PIN with anyone - *EVER*.

>>>
>>> So, anyone could borrow anyone else's reader and it should work,
>>> certainly if it the same bank? There is nothing coded in the reader, to
>>> the account?
>>
>> HSBC's are set up with the users PIN code in it.
>
> I thought best practice was to change passwords/codes every month?

It might be but all that results in is people tacking month number on
the end of the same password (or postit notes on their display). The
more senior the individual the more likely their password is insecure :(

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

It seems some cards don't like some readers and certain readers are a
lot more tolerant of other banks cards. There probably is a logic to it
somewhere based on which banks systems use home card readers. It seems
the ones that don't have cards which elicit a "wrong card" response.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[whisky-dave]

On Thursday, 8 March 2018 11:10:04 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <p7p9lj$1mlm$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
> Andrew <Andrew9...@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
> > I inquired if it needed to be locked to my account, but apparently
> > they are generic, so if someone steals your card and knows your
> > pin, they can presumably still empty your account.
>
> True. Perhaps you shouldn't have your PIN written on the card?

It's a good idea to have a number written on your card, a fake number, then if you loose your card someone might chance their luck by typing it in, then if yuo;'ve selected the correct type of number that looks corect upside down like 1188 then they might try 1188 then 8811 (if you put a line under it) with a bit of luck the card will be eaten by the ATM if another attempt is made.

I did this with my first two cards havent bothered since as I raraly use a cash point.

[Robin]

On 08/03/2018 11:52, Martin Brown wrote:

> You are not supposed to share your PIN with anyone - *EVER*.

The police et al do not recommend that policy when a mugger has a knife
at your throat while an accomplice, with the card, stands ready to run
to the cash machine.

[Robin]

On 08/03/2018 12:27, Huge wrote:

> On 2018-03-08, Robin <rb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 08/03/2018 11:52, Martin Brown wrote:
>>
>>> You are not supposed to share your PIN with anyone - *EVER*.
>>
>> The police et al do not recommend that policy when a mugger has a knife
>> at your throat while an accomplice, with the card, stands ready to run
>> to the cash machine.
>

> Perhaps the word "willingly" is implied?
>


Good point :)

[Chris Bartram]

On 07/03/2018 18:06, GB wrote:
> On 07/03/2018 16:15, Tim Watts wrote:
>> On 07/03/18 14:46, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
>>> GB wrote on 07/03/2018 :
>>>> I have one of their card readers. The system works very well, and it
>>>> certainly beats a call to CS.
>>>>
>>>> I'm pretty sure that you can order one online, but otherwise call CS
>>>> again.
>>>
>>> Thanks, reader ordered and yes it can be ordered via online banking..
>>
>> If you have another bank's, try that - my RBS reader works fine with
>> Nationwide.
>
> And Co-op works with Natwest.
RBS with Co-op, too.

[Theo]

Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> It seems some cards don't like some readers and certain readers are a
> lot more tolerant of other banks cards. There probably is a logic to it
> somewhere based on which banks systems use home card readers. It seems
> the ones that don't have cards which elicit a "wrong card" response.

Do we have examples of a card that works in reader A but not in reader B?
Which banks are involved?

If your card doesn't do EMV CAP it won't work in any reader, with the 'wrong
card' message. Some banks don't do CAP at all, or not for credit cards or
savings cards. However I'm curious to know if there are incompatibilities
between different CAP-enabled cards and readers I'm not aware of.

As I said upthread, HSBC Group is a red herring since they don't use card
readers.

Theo

[Chris Green]

Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > It seems some cards don't like some readers and certain readers are a
> > lot more tolerant of other banks cards. There probably is a logic to it
> > somewhere based on which banks systems use home card readers. It seems
> > the ones that don't have cards which elicit a "wrong card" response.
>
> Do we have examples of a card that works in reader A but not in reader B?
> Which banks are involved?
>
> If your card doesn't do EMV CAP it won't work in any reader, with the 'wrong
> card' message. Some banks don't do CAP at all, or not for credit cards or
> savings cards. However I'm curious to know if there are incompatibilities
> between different CAP-enabled cards and readers I'm not aware of.
>

I have a number of card readers (Nationwide, Lloyds and a Belgian BNP Paribas
one) they all seem to be cross compatible.

I have got the 'wrong card' message occasionally but that is when I
put my Nationwide credit card in the reader by mistake! :-)

> As I said upthread, HSBC Group is a red herring since they don't use card
> readers.
>

Yes, their security device isn't a card reader and *is* locked to your
account. I have one of these too.

--
Chris Green
·

[Robin]

On 08/03/2018 14:23, Jethro_uk wrote:

> On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 12:25:46 +0000, Robin wrote:
>
>> On 08/03/2018 11:52, Martin Brown wrote:
>>
>>> You are not supposed to share your PIN with anyone - *EVER*.
>>
>> The police et al do not recommend that policy when a mugger has a knife
>> at your throat while an accomplice, with the card, stands ready to run
>> to the cash machine.
>

> It's not impossible to have a mechanism where a backwards entered PIN
> causes a "insufficient funds" message as well as an alert to the nearby
> plod ?
>

All things are possible but your proposition raises some questions.
Let's start with:

a. would you give a mugger the reverse PIN if he tells you "if my mate
can't get any money you'll lose a couple of round objects"?

b. what good does it do you if the police know your card has been used
in the ATM at location X if within 30 seconds of the ATM message the
mugger holding you in an alley half a mile away has cut his losses (and
you)?

[Martin Brown]

On 08/03/2018 14:23, Jethro_uk wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 12:25:46 +0000, Robin wrote:
>

>> On 08/03/2018 11:52, Martin Brown wrote:
>>
>>> You are not supposed to share your PIN with anyone - *EVER*.
>>
>> The police et al do not recommend that policy when a mugger has a knife
>> at your throat while an accomplice, with the card, stands ready to run
>> to the cash machine.
>

> It's not impossible to have a mechanism where a backwards entered PIN
> causes a "insufficient funds" message as well as an alert to the nearby
> plod ?

It is possible but if you do that then the assailants will also know
what it means too and you get your throat cut. It has to call plod and
payout slowly or something delaying that doesn't look too unusual.

Industrial alarm systems have a duress code for this reason. It cancels
the alarm OK but also prioritises police response to visit ASAP.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <p7rkq8$c65$1...@dont-email.me>,
Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
> If I were mugged, the only way the mugger would get money is to march me
> to a cashpoint as I just don't carry cash.

Perhaps you'd do better to carry some. And save that journey to the cash
machine. Where that mugger would want the maximum you could draw out -
rather than the few quid you'd carry.

--
*War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

[Michael Chare]

On 08/03/2018 11:30, Scott wrote:

I think I have to say that I have never before bothered to test that
card as I use it regularly and am sure of the PIN.


--
Michael Chare

[Michael Chare]

On 07/03/2018 15:49, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <p7oshs$b5a$1...@dont-email.me>,

> Harry Bloomfield <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>> He managed it by sending a four digit code to my phone, me then reading
>> the digits back to him.
>
>> All very confusing, but it worked in the end. Has anyone heard of
>> NatWest's card readers? Why could I not progress with the online
>> banking, entering a new recipient?
>

> Barclays have had similar for ages. They call it a PINSentry unit. Only
> really needed for setting up a new payee from your account. Once you've
> done that, you can then transfer money to that account without it, as
> often as you like.
>

In the case of Natwest you also have to use the card and the reader for
the first payment.

--
Michael Chare

[Michael Chare]

On 07/03/2018 20:33, Scott wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 19:24:15 +0000, Max Demian <max_d...@bigfoot.com>
> wrote:

>
>> On 07/03/2018 18:13, Andrew wrote:
>>> On 07/03/2018 15:49, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>>> In article <p7oshs$b5a$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>>>     Harry Bloomfield <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> He managed it by sending a four digit code to my phone, me then reading
>>>>> the digits back to him.
>>>>
>>>>> All very confusing, but it worked in the end. Has anyone heard of
>>>>> NatWest's card readers? Why could I not progress with the online
>>>>> banking, entering a new recipient?
>>>>
>>>> Barclays have had similar for ages. They call it a PINSentry unit. Only
>>>> really needed for setting up a new payee from your account.
>>

>> You can use it to log into online banking as an alternative to the
>> "passcode/memorable word" method. You just need your debit card's PIN.

>>
>>> Once you've
>>>> done that, you can then transfer money to that account without it, as
>>>> often as you like.
>>

>>> Until all your payees mysteriously vanish and you have to set them
>>> up all over again.
>>
>> I find it rather annoying that payees disappear after a year of
>> inaction. I only pay my water bill once a year so it tends to disappear
>> and I have to set it up again with the danger of getting it wrong.
>
> I thought it was 13 months for that very reason.
>

I have only had a DD fail for that reason. Water board payments reduced
when I was moved to a meter.

--
Michael Chare

[Robin]

On 08/03/2018 15:28, Jethro_uk wrote:

> Before we spend any more time discussing, I would be curious to know how
> many incidents there are of cashpoint mugging to start with ?

I have only ever come across the term "cashpoint mugging" used in
connection with people robbed at or near an ATM. That's usually after
they have drawn cash to minimise the contact time between robber and
victim (or robber and passing hero).

In any event, your solution would be at least as relevant to cards
taking in all robberies - at cashpoints, in street robberies elsehgwre
and in robberies in homes.

> I suspect it's rare enough we don't need any additional features anyway.

How many would you think is enough to warrant your solution? I ask in
part because I am unclear why the rarity matters unless you think your
proposal would cost the banks a lot to implement and run.

Anyhow, the the short answer is that I don't know of any statistics
which separate robberies involving cards from ones which don't. I do
know that robbery of personal property has fallen to about 50,000
police recorded crimes a year in E&W. The crime survey as usual
suggests rather more.

But there are certainly some people who are mugged and have their cards
used - witness the way your proposal keeps being aired more than 20
years after it was first proposed.

> If I were mugged, the only way the mugger would get money is to march me
> to a cashpoint as I just don't carry cash.
>

Are you saying you also don't carry debit/credit cards? Or that you
would not tell muggers the true Pins for the cards?

[Handsome Jack]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> posted

>In article <vnb0adlpk8o0u8i8f...@4ax.com>,
> Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> They certainly cope with changes in the last four digits of the card.
>> Barclays change the 16 digit number each time a new debit card is
>> issued and I can assure you this does not require a new Pinsentry
>> machine.
>
>I have two current accounts with different cards and PIN for both. Same
>PINsentry unit works with both.
>

Is each card/PIN pair linked to just one of the accounts? Or does the
card/pin pair P1 generate a one-time code that gives you access to both
account A1 and account A2?


--
Jack

[whisky-dave]

Or it has been know for people to be taken to the cashpoint to withdraw cash.

>
> In any event, your solution would be at least as relevant to cards
> taking in all robberies - at cashpoints, in street robberies elsehgwre
> and in robberies in homes.
>
> > I suspect it's rare enough we don't need any additional features anyway.
>
> How many would you think is enough to warrant your solution?

That would be as difficult to work out as any other rare event.

> I ask in
> part because I am unclear why the rarity matters unless you think your
> proposal would cost the banks a lot to implement and run.

Rarity always matters thart's how you decide to do something about any event.

>
> Anyhow, the the short answer is that I don't know of any statistics
> which separate robberies involving cards from ones which don't.

I'm pretty sure the banks must have some idea.

> I do
> know that robbery of personal property has fallen to about 50,000
> police recorded crimes a year in E&W. The crime survey as usual
> suggests rather more.

As more and more people don't bother reporting a crime as little or nothing will be done about it.

> But there are certainly some people who are mugged and have their cards
> used - witness the way your proposal keeps being aired more than 20
> years after it was first proposed.

Well most people have ideas on how to stop most crimes.

> > If I were mugged, the only way the mugger would get money is to march me
> > to a cashpoint as I just don't carry cash.
> >
>
> Are you saying you also don't carry debit/credit cards? Or that you
> would not tell muggers the true Pins for the cards?

well there;s always the chance you can tell them you don't know your PIN number an ex flatmate of mine could never remmeber hers.

[Tim+]

With the Nationwide, one card/one PIN can be used to access and authorise
payments from all your online accounts. No need to carry multiple cards to
access your different online accounts.

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

[dennis@home]

On 08/03/2018 11:15, Martin wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Mar 2018 19:47:51 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
> <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> on 07/03/2018, Andrew supposed :
>>> The non-backlit display on my Barclays version has got a bit dim,
>>> so I went into the branch to complain and they just gave me
>>> another one.
>>>

>>> I inquired if it needed to be locked to my account, but apparently
>>> they are generic, so if someone steals your card and knows your
>>> pin, they can presumably still empty your account.
>>

>> So, anyone could borrow anyone else's reader and it should work,
>> certainly if it the same bank? There is nothing coded in the reader, to
>> the account?
>
> HSBC's are set up with the users PIN code in it.
>

HSBC's can't read cards anyway its a OTP generator and you need a pin to
operate it. Its also locked to one account I think.

[Mike Humphrey]

John Rumm wrote:
> Yes, you can only use each code once. You can pre-computer a few of them
> and store them for later use. That will let you login without the
> machine and card, but you still would not be able to authorise a new payee.

Yes, if you're using "identify" - the code generated is based on secret
details on the card and a counter. The bank knows which code was last
used, so they know what the counter is supposed to be. Try to use a
code that corresponds to a lower counter value, and they'll reject it.
IIRC they'll also reject it if you try to use a code that corresponds
to too high a counter value - you can skip some, but not too many.

The "respond" and "sign" modes incorporate the information you enter as
well as the card details and counter, so you could only pre-generate
the code if you knew what you would be asked to enter in order to
generate it.

All the calculations are done on the card, not the reader - this is what
makes it (almost) impossible to duplicate a chip card. The chip isn't
a memory device, it's a processor. You can't ask it to give you the
keys, only to respond to your requests. The reader is effectively just
a keypad and display for talking to the card, it doesn't contain any
information itself.

Mike

[mechanic]

On Thu, 8 Mar 2018 11:02:14 +0000, Michael Chare wrote:

> On 07/03/2018 15:03, Martin Brown wrote:

>> On 07/03/2018 14:21, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
>>> He managed it by sending a four digit code to my phone, me then
>>> reading the digits back to him.
>>>
>>> All very confusing, but it worked in the end. Has anyone heard of
>>> NatWest's card readers? Why could I not progress with the online
>>> banking, entering a new recipient?
>>

>> Yes. I have one in front of me now. It looks like any other
>> banks home card reader except in Natwest colours and with a red
>> Natwest logo on the front. You need it to initiate any new or
>> novel online transfers.
>>
>> No idea when they switched it on but at least 3 years ago.
>>
>> Looks to be identical to the Nationwide one apart from the
>> colour of the plastic and the type of cards it will accept. They
>> are annoyingly brand specific so you can't just use another
>> banks - it says "wrong card".
>>
>
> What annoys me is that I can't use these devices to check a
> credit card pin.

The PIN is the 'something I know' part of two factor authentication,
so has to be input by you. If you don't know it the two factor
authentication won't, at least not by that route.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article
<477083558.542221945.654...@news.individual.net>,

Tim+ <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
> With the Nationwide, one card/one PIN can be used to access and authorise
> payments from all your online accounts. No need to carry multiple cards to
> access your different online accounts.

Not sure there's much point in having more than one current account if one
card and PIN does for all? Domestically, that is.

--
*It IS as bad as you think, and they ARE out to get you.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <bhmTYMPq...@none.demon.co.uk>,

Handsome Jack <Ja...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> posted
> >In article <vnb0adlpk8o0u8i8f...@4ax.com>,
> > Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >> They certainly cope with changes in the last four digits of the card.
> >> Barclays change the 16 digit number each time a new debit card is
> >> issued and I can assure you this does not require a new Pinsentry
> >> machine.
> >
> >I have two current accounts with different cards and PIN for both. Same
> >PINsentry unit works with both.
> >

> Is each card/PIN pair linked to just one of the accounts?

Yes.

> Or does the
> card/pin pair P1 generate a one-time code that gives you access to both
> account A1 and account A2?

You need to use the appropriate card and PIN in conjunction with the
PINsentry unit to set up a new payee. And I suppose to set up some other
services. It's not really possible to do simultaneous operations to A1 and
A2, I think. Not that I can think of any reason to do so anyway.

--
*I wished the buck stopped here, as I could use a few*

[Marland]

>> All very confusing, but it worked in the end. Has anyone heard of
>> NatWest's card readers? Why
>

> I'd go to your local bank branch and ask them for help. If you have given
> somebody your password change it quick.

FSVO local, like most banks Nat West have closed many branches.
It can be quite a hike to the nearest branch.

I ‘ve just got my Mother to obtain a reader so she can set up to pay some
regular traders like the window cleaner,despite using online banking for
some years she was unaware of it.
Because of closures her nearest branch is a 50 mile round trip which is
awkward if you have voluntarily stopped driving due to age.

GH

[Jim K]

Michael Chare <mUNDERS...@chareDO.Torg.uk> Wrote in message:
> On 07/03/2018 22:49, John Rumm wrote:

>> On 07/03/2018 19:47, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
>>> on 07/03/2018, Andrew supposed :
>>>> The non-backlit display on my Barclays version has got a bit dim,
>>>> so I went into the branch to complain and they just gave me
>>>> another one.
>>>>
>>>> I inquired if it needed to be locked to my account, but apparently
>>>> they are generic, so if someone steals your card and knows your
>>>> pin, they can presumably still empty your account.
>>>
>>> So, anyone could borrow anyone else's reader and it should work,
>>> certainly if it the same bank? There is nothing coded in the reader, to
>>> the account?
>>

>> The readers all implement the same standard crypto signing system, so
>> although the banks don't all use them in exactly the same way, the
>> machines themselves should be interchangeable. Its the chip on the card
>> combined with your pin that makes the thing unique.
>>
>
> I have 3 different ones and as far as I am aware they are completely
> interchangeable. If I go on holiday I usually take the one belonging to
> the least important a/c.

How long do you go for?
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

[dennis@home]

On 09/03/2018 11:03, Martin wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Mar 2018 20:00:42 +0000, "dennis@home" <den...@invalid.invalid> wrote:


>> HSBC's can't read cards anyway its a OTP generator and you need a pin to
>> operate it.
>

> Yes of course sorry if I caused confusion.

>
>> Its also locked to one account I think.
>

> HSBC is vague on this subject

By account I meant account user.
Mine will work with my savings and current account.
However it won't work for the wife even though one of the accounts is a
joint account.
She can log on using here id and a different OTP device and see her
savings account and the joint but not my savings account.

The same is true of Santander but it uses the mobile phone for identity
checking with a OTP tested when required.

[dennis@home]

On 09/03/2018 00:37, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article
> <477083558.542221945.654...@news.individual.net>,
> Tim+ <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> With the Nationwide, one card/one PIN can be used to access and authorise
>> payments from all your online accounts. No need to carry multiple cards to
>> access your different online accounts.
>
> Not sure there's much point in having more than one current account if one
> card and PIN does for all? Domestically, that is.
>

One account? You need several so you can get a decent interest rate on
any savings you may have. The current accounts and their linked savings
are about the only option for safe savings that make more tha inflation.

[Martin Brown]

On 09/03/2018 00:37, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article
> <477083558.542221945.654...@news.individual.net>,
> Tim+ <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> With the Nationwide, one card/one PIN can be used to access and authorise
>> payments from all your online accounts. No need to carry multiple cards to
>> access your different online accounts.
>
> Not sure there's much point in having more than one current account if one
> card and PIN does for all? Domestically, that is.

It is the only way to get 3% interest on modest savings if you can meet
the requirements to qualify for it. 1.5% on a couple of others - still
above what most deposit accounts will pay.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[dennis@home]

On 09/03/2018 13:14, Martin wrote:

> You get 2.5%12 month deposit account in an Australian bank and 0.1% in a Dutch
> bank.
>

5% on some bank accounts but you need anew one every year or two.

[michael adams]

"dennis@home" <den...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:qzyoC.75785$PS.2...@fx02.am4...

>
> 5% on some bank accounts but you need anew one every year or two.

That's regular saver accounts, Unfortunately with all of the 5%
ones anyway - you already need an account with that bank
or b/s
Theres usually a maximum limiit of between £2k and £3.5 k
for the account and you need to deposit between £200 - £300
per month; and they only last for a year.

Working backwards with a 2.5k limit and depositing £200 a month
you'd need to start with £100, This would then go £300, £500 etc.

So the great interest rate would only apply to relatively minor amounts
to start with, at least. Maybe its better than nothing but it involves a lot
of faffing around IMO.


michael adams

...



>

[Robin]

On 09/03/2018 18:18, Huge wrote:

> On 2018-03-09, Marland <geme...@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> All very confusing, but it worked in the end. Has anyone heard of
>>>> NatWest's card readers? Why
>>>
>>> I'd go to your local bank branch and ask them for help. If you have given
>>> somebody your password change it quick.
>>
>> FSVO local, like most banks Nat West have closed many branches.
>

> The NatWest in out local small town is closed because they get less than
> 100 customers a month through the front door. 57 last November. No-one can
> run a business on that kind of footfall.
>
But that's not relevant to those who see a local bank (and free banking)
as their fundamental human right.

I wondered the Wiki needed a page on DIY banking - in the form of credit
unions. But I've not yet had enough to drink to suggest the obvious
person to .... ;)

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <3a9cd1c9-09a6-a067...@hotmail.com>,

Robin <rb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > The NatWest in out local small town is closed because they get less
> > than 100 customers a month through the front door. 57 last November.
> > No-one can run a business on that kind of footfall.
> >
> But that's not relevant to those who see a local bank (and free banking)
> as their fundamental human right.

It's rather like complaining about a poor bus service you never use.

--
*Do paediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <fgg6c9...@mid.individual.net>,
Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> If people want banking as a social good, the State should lay it on. In
> Post Offices, for example. And, oh look, they have.

They've closed lots of those too. Much quicker for me to print out a
Hermes label and take the parcel to my local shop. Closer, less busy and
open longer than the nearest post office.

--
*If a thing is worth doing, wouldn't it have been done already?