25mm black water pipe.Leaking, advice please.
Nigel Stanley
small water stream rising. Dug down and there is a 25mm black poly pipe
with a small hole in its side. I have achieved a tempory repair using a
jubilee clip and some rubber ( better than expected). Got necessary
repair items from merchants and proceeded to turn off stop tap at top of
drive. However the water does not turn off in the house, a neighbours
property does however. Rang local water authority and they attempted a
stop tap trace, without success. Apparently as the pipe is plastic it
can't be traced. Any one any good at divining?? They have suggested
freezing the pipe or clamping it in order to facilitate a proper repair.
I had already inqired at the plumbers merchants about freezing the pipe
and was warned off this as they felt the plastic would go brittle and
snap. Mentioned to water official and he's not got back as stated. As
for clamping the pipe someone has hinted that this might split its sides
as it could be one of two thicknesses.
Any ideas?
Regards
Nigel
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Ledswinger
news:0ce2f0307a35336ab89...@mygate.mailgate.org...
> Whilst digging up drive in preparation for block paving, I noticed a
> small water stream rising. Dug down and there is a 25mm black poly pipe
> with a small hole in its side. I have achieved a tempory repair using a
> jubilee clip and some rubber ( better than expected).
As a broad rule (not 100%) the black polythene pipe hasn't aged as well as
the MDPE pipes that are now the norm for water distribution; the black ones
seem to start breaking down after about fifteen years or so. That varies
greatly according to what the pipes have to stand up to, and how they were
laid. If it has gone once, then there's every chance that if you attempt a
sectional repair then it'll fail elsewhere at some stage in the not too
distant future, which doesn't bode well for your block paved drive. Lest
that seems pessimistic, note that it is true of water company pipes too -
its always the same sections or areas that have the mains bursts and repair
work going on, and that doesn't stop until they've relayed the pipe
properly. I note from you comments that you don't appear to have a stop
tap - that's potentially very bad news if you have a pipe burst or other
fitting failure in the house, and that's another thing to get sorted now. I
note that the bunglers at the water company couldn't trace a (presumably
their) stop tap - if you advise them that you need to shut off the water to
replace leaking pipe then they'll have to sort out a means of stopping the
supply by finding the existing stop tap, or install a new stop tap - which
should be at their expense.
So rather than trying effect a permanent repair to the existing pipe, I'd
say replace the whole lot with new MDPE, and put in a stop tap at the house
end. Done properly that'll see you OK for the next twenty five years and
more. Check with your water supplier if they have any schemes to offer
subsidised replacement - varies greatly from company to company. Some will
repair for free, but don't be taken in - IMHO you need to replace the whole
lot replaced before doing the drive. If that doesn't attract any subsidy or
assistance from the water company, do it yourself - it isn't worth skimping
before a new drive goes down, because most water companies won't make good
the surface if they do subsequent repair or replacement under subsidised
schemes.
Led
Lin@themoon How Lin
"Nigel Stanley" <ni...@ncstanley.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0ce2f0307a35336ab89...@mygate.mailgate.org...
Are you sure you have located the correct 'Stop Cock' ?
In my neighbourhood, there are several along the street, usually in pairs
and they seem to affect two to four houses 'en-mass'.
How (Howard Linford)
--
Irrational man with verbal dysentery
Part time Wideboy
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The Natural Philosopher
How Lin wrote:
>
> Are you sure you have located the correct 'Stop Cock' ?
>
> In my neighbourhood, there are several along the street, usually in pairs
> and they seem to affect two to four houses 'en-mass'.
>
Mine is 200 yds down the road... and is MINE ALL MINE.
(country property :-))
Lin@themoon How Lin
"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:3C55DEBE.6AB72C87@b.c...
Wy Aye 'me lud ;-) (step back in admiration)
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Neil
We had one leak in our black pipe and got it repaired. They guy who did it
said that it was a matter of luck: it might go on for years or it might
spring another leak by the time he got to the gate!
It actually went on for about 6 months before a new leak appeared.
At that point we got a new main "moled" in - which was actually a very quick
(2 days) process for 110yds of pipe. They dug a hole about every 10-15 yds
and worked between each pair with the mole. That WOULD have made a mess of a
newly laid drive, but was OK to us... I gather that if they hit a
particularly solid rock it can dramatically slow things down, though... They
were also very wary of the underground electric supply cable
(understanably!).
As it was > 50m the water co pointed out in the "small print" that it was
outside their "free repair" service and wanted Ł40 / m to do it. The
contractor we used (who also works for the water co!) charged Ł20 / m.
Fortunately, the water co didn't charge is for the (metered) water that
leaked away either time (as we got it "professionally" repaired).
Good luck
Neil.
Our pipe was ~30 years old, BTW.
"Nigel Stanley" <ni...@ncstanley.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0ce2f0307a35336ab89...@mygate.mailgate.org...
Jethro
> property does however. Rang local water authority and they attempted a
> stop tap trace, without success. Apparently as the pipe is plastic it
> can't be traced. Any one any good at divining??
Maybe slight OT, but a couple of surveyors I know swear by divining for
water/electric & gas pipes. Couple of biro shells, and bent coat hangers is
all it takes. Relax, and just wonder round to warm up. Once you "hit" the
pipe, then carefully follow it as far as you need.
Repeat if necessary (to convince yourself) and maybe get a friend to try as
well, to double check.
You may get some funny looks, but as this surveyors pointed out to me :
It's free.
HTH
Jethro
Will Dean
news:a363g5$15trg7$1...@ID-123515.news.dfncis.de...
>
> Maybe slight OT, but a couple of surveyors I know swear by divining for
> water/electric & gas pipes. Couple of biro shells, and bent coat hangers
is
> all it takes. Relax, and just wonder round to warm up. Once you "hit" the
> pipe, then carefully follow it as far as you need.
>
> Repeat if necessary (to convince yourself) and maybe get a friend to try
as
> well, to double check.
>
> You may get some funny looks, but as this surveyors pointed out to me :
>
> It's free.
Unfortunately it doesn't work. Or at least not when people try decent
studies of it. This always seems to be greatly to the surprise of the
dowsers themselves, who then always have to put huge effort into
retrospectively inventing excuses why they can't dowse on that particular
day/site/phase of the moon/chin-chang alignment. Mine clearance might be a
useful thing for dowsers to try - there'd be a sort of accelerated natural
selection which would quickly sort out the good ones...
If you want to find something buried, get a man with a digger in and ask him
to do something completely unrelated, miles away from the expected location
of the item, and much shallower.
It's a 100% certainty that two twiddles of his levers and you'll have
oil/gas/water/coloured telephone cable and whatever else all over the place.
How did I get to be so cynical?
Will
Will Dean
news:oYj58.3712$402.28...@news-text.cableinet.net...
>
> As a broad rule (not 100%) the black polythene pipe hasn't aged as well as
> the MDPE pipes that are now the norm for water distribution; the black
ones
> seem to start breaking down after about fifteen years or so.
I didn't know this. Isn't MDPE polythene as well? What's different about
the old black pipe? (I'm not talking about the crappy garden irrigation
kind, I mean the stuff which was replaced by the blue pipe and had umpteen
different internal diameters)
I know 2/3 of naff all about polymers, so I'm probably not going to
understand the explanation, but anyway...
Will
Dave Plowman
Will Dean <{news}@industrial.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I didn't know this. Isn't MDPE polythene as well? What's different
> about the old black pipe? (I'm not talking about the crappy garden
> irrigation kind, I mean the stuff which was replaced by the blue pipe
> and had umpteen different internal diameters)
> I know 2/3 of naff all about polymers, so I'm probably not going to
> understand the explanation, but anyway...
Basically, all plastics self destruct eventually. Those that haven't
already will in the future. ;-)
--
* Proofread carefully to see if you any words out or mispeld something *
Dave Plowman dave....@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
Dave Plowman
The Natural Philosopher <a@b.c> wrote:
> > In my neighbourhood, there are several along the street, usually in pairs
> > and they seem to affect two to four houses 'en-mass'.
> >
> Mine is 200 yds down the road... and is MINE ALL MINE.
So you've got vandals in your area as well?
--
* Does fuzzy logic tickle? *
Will Dean
news:4b006f6469...@argonet.co.uk...
>
> Basically, all plastics self destruct eventually. Those that haven't
> already will in the future. ;-)
I just knew that a skilled polymer scientist would be along to answer my
question. :-)
Will
Ledswinger
news:1012307150.16340....@news.demon.co.uk...
My comment was based on water industry experience, not really on the
material science. Although the black poly pipe is a form of polyethylene,
and so is the modern water pipe (MDPE = Medium Density PolyEthylene), things
aren't as simple as they appear - different varieties have different make
ups, and different properties. As an example some types of polythene have
displaced kevlar as the "active ingredient" in bullet proof vests, but
clearly a Sainsbury's carrier bag isn't going to achieve the same effect.
We know that older black poly pipe hasn't lasted too well, given the benefit
of hindsight. It isn't too bad, but far from brilliant. I'd guess that the
polymer was LDPE or a "light mix", which is less strong than higher
molecular weight versions. There are other factors - manufacture, handling
and installation have all come on a bit since the days when black poly first
appeared, and we now know a bit more about the conditions that we're trying
to achieve, so I suspect that the difference between black and blue is a
combination of chemistry, and the physical aspects just mentioned. You can
of course get cheap low density PE pipe in blue these days, as well as other
blue polymers, but I've no experience to comment on their performance.
Personally I'd make sure I was getting MDPE because it seems to be serving
the industry fine, and if it starts breaking down then my supply pipe would
be the least of my and their worries.
For the materials science bit (after a quick refresh on my part!)
polyethylene is the simplest of most if not all commerical polymers, and
comprises a very long chain of joined hydrogen atoms like the body of a
centipede, with two carbon atoms attached to each hydrogen, like the feet of
the centipede (apologies to all chemists, but ICBA to do the ASCII art).
The difference between grades of polyethylene, and the cause of differing
molecular weight is that some forms have branches of polyethylene, instead
of remaining single strands. If you produce unbranched PE molecules, you
have very strong material. The more branched molecules there are, the lower
the density and the lower the strength. Although higher weight broadly
equals better it is more difficult to make and therefore costs more.
Led
Dave Liquorice
> Mine is 200 yds down the road... and is MINE ALL MINE.
>
> (country property :-))
Hum if mine was that far away I think I *would* take out insurance
against against having to do much work on the service pipe. Remember
the water boards responsiblity stops at their stop cock...
I sometimes wonder if it might be worth it for ours at 25 yards but
possibly involving digging up the public highway...
--
Cheers new...@howhill.com
Dave. Remove "spam" for valid email.
Dave Liquorice
> For the materials science bit (after a quick refresh on my part!)
Need a second refresh. B-)
> polyethylene is the simplest of most if not all commerical polymers,
> and comprises a very long chain of joined hydrogen atoms like the
> body of a centipede, with two carbon atoms attached to each
> hydrogen, like the feet of the centipede (apologies to all chemists,
> but ICBA to do the ASCII art).
Make that a chain of carbon atoms with hydrogen feet and you be
closer, er like correct. B-)
H H H H
I I I I
etc --C---C---C---C-- etc
I I I I
H H H H
Ledswinger
news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@snail.howhill.network...
>
> > polyethylene is the simplest of most if not all commerical polymers,
> > and comprises a very long chain of joined hydrogen atoms like the
> > body of a centipede, with two carbon atoms attached to each
> > hydrogen,
>
> closer, er like correct. B-)
>
Ooops.
Given the causes of Mars orbiter crash, I daresay my chemistry will still be
good enough to get me a job at NASA.
Led
The Natural Philosopher
yerrs.
'plastics' are cross linked polymerised monomers. Chains of hydrocarbons
that get tangled up in eachother under pressure, and stay tangled up..
Depending on conditions, and what monomers you used, 'plastics' will
last from milliseconds to thousands of years..
'poloythene' is an early plastic. later ones are better engineered for
the jobs that plastics do well.
Most plastics degrade under UV light, and many degrade under acid/alkali
attack. But not all do either.
Polypropylenes and butyls are remarkably good. Probably better than the
metals they often replace.
>
> Will
The Natural Philosopher
Dave Liquorice wrote:
>
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:29:02 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> > Mine is 200 yds down the road... and is MINE ALL MINE.
> >
> > (country property :-))
>
> Hum if mine was that far away I think I *would* take out insurance
> against against having to do much work on the service pipe. Remember
> the water boards responsiblity stops at their stop cock...
It took us a morning, and the very helpful bloke who works for the
farmer, to find the bloody thing. And then a further hour with an angle
grinder and a piece of scrap house to forge a tool to turn the bloody
thing off.
So we could fit a nice new bit of blue pipe to it to replace the mess
the digger had made of the black bit that goes 200yds under a field to
get to the house..
Ah well. Tis all done now..
>
> I sometimes wonder if it might be worth it for ours at 25 yards but
> possibly involving digging up the public highway...
I think thats why mine is 200yds away. Better to dig 200yds through a
field than cross the road...I *know* the pipe runs that way becuase
there are houses further down the rod...except, thinking about it, maybe
I am the last in the chain.
There is a curious arrangement of telephione wirse in my immediate area.
The wires run up the hill to me, and then go to a few moure houses and
then stops. A few yards further on, they start again...but on an
*entirely different exchange*.
:-)
So perhaps I live on a water as well as a BT 'watershed' :-)
The Natural Philosopher
Dave Plowman wrote:
>
> In article <3C55DEBE.6AB72C87@b.c>,
> The Natural Philosopher <a@b.c> wrote:
> > > In my neighbourhood, there are several along the street, usually in pairs
> > > and they seem to affect two to four houses 'en-mass'.
> > >
> > Mine is 200 yds down the road... and is MINE ALL MINE.
>
> So you've got vandals in your area as well?
Er...no. Apart from the builders that is.
John
> "Jethro" <Jeth...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a363g5$15trg7$1...@ID-123515.news.dfncis.de...
> >
> > Maybe slight OT, but a couple of surveyors I know swear by divining for
> > water/electric & gas pipes. Couple of biro shells, and bent coat
hangers
> is
> > all it takes. Relax, and just wonder round to warm up. Once you "hit"
the
> > pipe, then carefully follow it as far as you need.
> >
> > Repeat if necessary (to convince yourself) and maybe get a friend to
try
> as
> > well, to double check.
> >
> > You may get some funny looks, but as this surveyors pointed out to me :
> >
> > It's free.
>
> Unfortunately it doesn't work. Or at least not when people try decent
> studies of it. This always seems to be greatly to the surprise of the
> dowsers themselves, who then always have to put huge effort into
> retrospectively inventing excuses why they can't dowse on that particular
> day/site/phase of the moon/chin-chang alignment. Mine clearance might
be a
> useful thing for dowsers to try - there'd be a sort of accelerated
natural
> selection which would quickly sort out the good ones...
I have on occasion found buried pipes and cables by dowsing although not
100% success rate I find that if I am "looking" for a pipe if I get a
twitch there is usually something there when the digging starts. I don't
know why or how it works and there are occasions when I don't get any
twitches but subsequent local knowledge reveals I've gone right over a pipe
which old grandad recalls being put in 60 years ago. but whichever way we
find it what the hell?
It is entirely possible that I am subconciously responding to imperceptible
depressions in the ground or logical expectations but I have found buried
cables under wooden floors so that cannot be down to slight depressions. As
I said I don't know how or why it works just that it sometimes does.
>
> If you want to find something buried, get a man with a digger in and ask
him
> to do something completely unrelated, miles away from the expected
location
> of the item, and much shallower.
>
> It's a 100% certainty that two twiddles of his levers and you'll have
> oil/gas/water/coloured telephone cable and whatever else all over the
place.
>
> How did I get to be so cynical?
>
Perhaps you read Adam too much?
Simon Avery
Hello Nigel
> NS| Whilst digging up drive in preparation for block paving, I
> NS| noticed a small water stream rising. Dug down and there is a
> NS| 25mm black poly pipe with a small hole in its side. I have
> NS| achieved a tempory repair using a jubilee clip and some
> NS| rubber ( better than expected). Got necessary repair items
> NS| from merchants and proceeded to turn off stop tap at top of
> NS| drive. However the water does not turn off in the house, a
> NS| neighbours property does however. Rang local water authority
> NS| and they attempted a stop tap trace, without success.
> NS| Apparently as the pipe is plastic it can't be traced. Any
> NS| one any good at divining?? They have suggested freezing the
> NS| pipe or clamping it in order to facilitate a proper repair.
> NS| I had already inqired at the plumbers merchants about
> NS| freezing the pipe and was warned off this as they felt the
> NS| plastic would go brittle and snap. Mentioned to water
> NS| official and he's not got back as stated. As for clamping
> NS| the pipe someone has hinted that this might split its sides
> NS| as it could be one of two thicknesses.
Clamping would almost certainly break it - the black stuff is, IME,
the most brittle of all plastic piping.
I would've thought a freeze kit would work ok. It would make the
plastic brittle, yes, but you'd not be working that close to it so it
wouldn't matter.
But just in case, better by a few more jubilee clips.
You really ought to be finding the stop cock though, next time you
REALLY NEED to find it you'll want to know where it is.
And Led's advice is sound - if it's leaking once, it's gonna go again
soon - better to replace it before you bury it under a nice drive.
--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
Personal pages: http://www.digdilem.org/
Dave Liquorice
> Given the causes of Mars orbiter crash, I daresay my chemistry will
> still be good enough to get me a job at NASA.
I should thinks so but remember not to use those new fangled, not
invened here, metric units that the rest of the scientific world uses
when in the US. B-)
Will Dean
news:a3cb8i$id5$2...@helle.btinternet.com...
>
> I have on occasion found buried pipes and cables by dowsing although not
> 100% success rate I find that if I am "looking" for a pipe if I get a
> twitch there is usually something there when the digging starts. I don't
> know why or how it works and there are occasions when I don't get any
> twitches but subsequent local knowledge reveals I've gone right over a
pipe
> which old grandad recalls being put in 60 years ago. but whichever way we
> find it what the hell?
> It is entirely possible that I am subconciously responding to
imperceptible
> depressions in the ground or logical expectations but I have found buried
> cables under wooden floors so that cannot be down to slight depressions.
As
> I said I don't know how or why it works just that it sometimes does.
Of course it works sometimes. It's just that it doesn't work a similar
number of other times. If you reckon you get it to work more often than
not (and more often than might reasonably just be chance), there are several
people around the world who will give you heaps of money if you demonstrate
that to them.
> Perhaps you read Adam too much?
Not at all, he's been killfiled for yonks.
Will