Designs of council houses in 1950s
Jim Racker
1945. So far, I have been unable to find any information on the web.
I'm not interested in the town planning that went on, or in aspects of
social housing per se. It's the actual specification, design, and
construction that I'm keen to find out *anything* about.
For example, as one notices council housing estates from the car, bus,
or train, it soon becomes obvious that there were several standard
designs. I have seen my own ex-council house effectively transported
to a different part of the country! Someone or some organisation or
association must have been instrumental in coordinating the design and
specification work that went on. I assume that local authority housing
departments had a list of architects and builders they could
commission when a new housing estate was being planned.
So, if anyone knows of any URLs pointing to information on council
house design, I'd be very interested!
Thanks.
Jim
Autolycus
Jim Racker <jim_r...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3cb88361...@news.freeserve.net...
> I am interested in the designs of council houses that were built since
> 1945. So far, I have been unable to find any information on the web.
> I'm not interested in the town planning that went on, or in aspects of
> social housing per se. It's the actual specification, design, and
> construction that I'm keen to find out *anything* about.
When did the Parker Morris (or is it Parker-Morris?) standards come in?
ISTR that these laid down standards for everything from room sizes to
ventilator areas in food stores. Might be something else to google on.
--
Kevin Poole
Peter Crosland
or not!
--
Regards from Peter Crosland g6...@yahoo.com
"Jim Racker" <jim_r...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Peter Crosland
This should help your quest.
dg
The BRE http://www.bre.co.uk has a number of studies on system built
properies. You will have to pay for the research papers. There are also a
number of books on the subject.
Basically they were sold to LA's as a quick fix to a housing shortage. The
modern techniques and prefrabrication were seen as the answer to a number of
problems, but they were let down by poor workmanship/supervision, inadequate
design and inherent flaws.
I understand that a lot of money in brown envelopes changed hands between
the builders and the local planners at the tender stage in order to ensure
one system was chosen over another. They were really competitive at that
time.
Some of the main designs are
Bryant Wall Frame
Bryant System 2
Bryant System A
Wimpey no-fines
Mowlem Fly Ash
Timber frame - Morris and Jacombs
Its not just houses, but the multi-storey blocks are system built too.
Essentially most designs were based on precast concrete panels made off or
on site, and bolted together. Some sort of exterior cladding was then fixed.
Common problems are condensation, damp, concrete panels cracking, steel
connections and re-inforcement corroding and poor bracing of timber roof
truses
dg
Tony Bryer
> When did the Parker Morris (or is it Parker-Morris?) standards come in?
> ISTR that these laid down standards for everything from room sizes to
> ventilator areas in food stores. Might be something else to google on.
Parker Morris is mid-1960's IIRC. I have a copy somewhere (not for sale)
- very well thought out and set out. I'm sure there were standards before
then - probably a condition of getting government loans.
I vaguely remember looking at the plans of a 1950's council development
in Chessington, and two things that stood out were that there were north
and south aspect plans (bathroom and small bedroom reversed) and living
rooms sills had to be at a level so you could see out when sitting in a
chair.
--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
lurker
"dg" <drgr...@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9s1u8.1852$2v2.11540568@news-
>
> Some of the main designs are
>
> Bryant Wall Frame
> Bryant System 2
> Bryant System A
> Wimpey no-fines
> Mowlem Fly Ash
> Timber frame - Morris and Jacombs
>
> Its not just houses, but the multi-storey blocks are system built too.
> Essentially most designs were based on precast concrete panels made off or
> on site, and bolted together. Some sort of exterior cladding was then
fixed.
>
> Common problems are condensation, damp, concrete panels cracking, steel
> connections and re-inforcement corroding and poor bracing of timber roof
> truses
I once lived in one built to a system called Laing Easy Form ( poured
concrete on a steel frame). Actually almost indestructable and dry as a bone
done properly!
A major problem nowadays is that even if there may be nothing wrong with the
system used and the houses built in a particular locality or by an LA, often
they are not mortgageable and are difficult to sell if you are unfortunate
enough to have one.
I aquired one such in the 1980's inherited two a third and bought out two
thirds as a first buy for myself and partner - father originally purchased
it from the LA) when these problems did not affect purchase - in fact I
wasnt even told there was a "problem".
When I attempted to sell it in the late 1990's I found it was almost
impossible to do so - only two lenders were willing to even consider
mortgaging them. Many purchasers wouldnt buy them and I had to sell cheap
although I think that may be changing in the current climate, since they
are the only properties within the range of a first time buyer in our area
right now!)
Mind you ..... I still dont think anyone tells those purchasing direct from
the council under the right to buy that they are not useful as an
investment - they are to be ( as a structural engineer said to me)
considered as a home for life.
ma...@karman.demon.co.uk
wrote:
My project "shed" is poured concrete into some kind of wire mesh that
was removed afterwards circa 1955.
Minus points - the crappy thin plaster. Bit hard to remove a "brick"
to put in vents etc. Needs to be rendered.
Plus points, so far. It's not particularly cold inside compared to my
parents brick built house of similar vintage. The walls are a damn
sight more square. There are no problems with damp or condensation
that some new guttering and downpipes and a bit of heating won't fix.
Mark S.
Owain
| 1945. So far, I have been unable to find any information on the web.
| I'm not interested in the town planning that went on, or in aspects of
| social housing per se. It's the actual specification, design, and
Something like "Specification - the standard reference book for architects,
surveyors and municipal engineers" pub by the Architectural Press, Queen
Anne's Gate, London, may be what you are looking for.
The adverts are sometimes more informative than the text.
I have a 1947 edition which includes some details of post-war emergency
housing, but later editions might have more of the system-built types
described.
Have you tried your local council archives, they may have planning
applications or photos of construction in progress at the time. Even local
papers may have photos of opening ceremonies etc describing the type of
system-built in your locality.
Also try the library at local universities or colleges that teach building
and architectural subjects. Access is often available to non-borrowing
non-students free.
Owain
Paul D.Smith
poured concrete. One problem was damp because the walls were so cold during
the winter. Another was trying to hang anything as the walls were as tough
as... On the plus side, after the council fitted internal insulation board
they were much warmer and there was never any problem with cracks, dodgy
pointing etc. I've certainly seen this design around the country including
various slight differences such as a "walk through to the back" in the
centre of 4/6 house terraces in some whilst others had no such access but a
public right of way through the end house rear gardens to provide rear
access to the central rear gardens.
Also my old home town, Kidderminster had some of the first "bison" (I
think?) build flats which were a frame with concrete panels hung from it.
This design suffered badly as in the 1970's panels started falling off -
literally! Later investigations showed that the basic design was sound but
that the builders had simply cut off some of the "rings" which hooked onto
the framework because they often didn't quite line up. The remaining rings
couldn't take the strain and gave way after a few years.
These flats are still standing but have been resheathed in brickwork now.
Still no more attractive though!
Paul DS.
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"Jim Racker" <jim_r...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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International Man of Mystery
"Paul D.Smith" <p...@x-dataconnection.com> wrote in message
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Try the uk architectural or construction ng's. They tend to be
professionals and would know more of this.
BTW, most council house styles were naff. Well built but naff. It appears
they deliberately made them to look different and not as good aesthetically
as the lesser in quality built private homes. They were designed that way to
maintain the class differences promoting petty snobbery. The planning
departments were inundated with petty middle classies and still are. Look
at any planning committee and the they still have those Women's Institute
types with big hats. I know of
In the 1970s council homes near me had CH and fitted kitchens as standard,
then extras in private homes. You should have seen the uproar from the
private box semi dwellers. I said they could all put their names on the
council list and stop barking the silly sods. The council homes set the
standards that private had to follow.
The Technical Manager
> Used to live in a 1950s council house that I was told was solid walled
> poured concrete. One problem was damp because the walls were so cold during
> the winter. Another was trying to hang anything as the walls were as tough
> as... On the plus side, after the council fitted internal insulation board
> they were much warmer and there was never any problem with cracks, dodgy
> pointing etc. I've certainly seen this design around the country including
> various slight differences such as a "walk through to the back" in the
> centre of 4/6 house terraces in some whilst others had no such access but a
> public right of way through the end house rear gardens to provide rear
> access to the central rear gardens.
>
> Also my old home town, Kidderminster had some of the first "bison" (I
> think?) build flats which were a frame with concrete panels hung from it.
> This design suffered badly as in the 1970's panels started falling off -
> literally! Later investigations showed that the basic design was sound but
> that the builders had simply cut off some of the "rings" which hooked onto
> the framework because they often didn't quite line up. The remaining rings
> couldn't take the strain and gave way after a few years.
>
> These flats are still standing but have been resheathed in brickwork now.
> Still no more attractive though!
I once read somewhere about some council flats that had a floor to ceiling
glass panel inside them. A family with young children moved into a flat and
complained to the council that the panels were a safety risk and that they
wanted them removed. The council later replied that the panels were an standard
architectural feature and would have to stay. Some time later a kid in another
flat was badly cut falling through the panel and the council ended up removing
every one on the entire estate after an outcry by most of the residents. The
article didn't state where this estate was. Out of interest does anyone know ?
Jim Racker
International Man of Mystery: I know what you mean about the designs!
They don't look much, but boy, are some of those earlier council
houses built like brick s...outhouses! My 1952 ex-council house is
bog-standard breeze-block inner walls and brick outer walls, Crittall
windows and a poured bitumen ground floor. It makes me laugh when I'm
upstairs in a modern house and I can practically put my fist through
the plasterboard! And what about those yukky timber-framed Wimpey and
Barrat homes in the 1980s? Awful.
I'm renovating my house ready for sale. I've been in it for 18 years,
having bought it for £29,500. It's worth around £140,000 now. The
rooms are big, the house is light, having lots of windows, the roof
space is high enough for an average person to stand up in, so there's
lots of storage space. Only from the outside do these houses often
lack in asthetic appeal. Oh, another huge plus is the massive gardens!
I reckon the authorities imagined that all the tenants would be
growing their own veggies. (Perhaps they did?) In a way, I shall be
sad to leave my house, but it's time to move on. I have itchy feet,
and I've seen what £140,000 can buy in Cornwall or Norfolk!
Jim
lurker
Yah! Doesnt it just. It might be worth noting for people that the average
price of a ex council house don here ( Cornwall) would be about £60,000.
A warning. . be careful , we are getting over run with emmits moving down
here permenantly - selling up houses in areas of higher value and pricing
our kids out of the locality. You may not be as welcome as you think.
I cant speak for Norfolk.
tony sayer
<i_lu...@hotmail.com> writes
Isn't much different, seems to be a large outflow along the M11/A11 on
Friday nights and back on Sunday evening, weekend holiday homes...
--
Tony Sayer
John Armstrong
<I...@NOOSSPPAM-IMM.com> wrote:
>Try the uk architectural or construction ng's. They tend to be
>professionals and would know more of this.
>
Which newsgroups would those be?
--
John
The Technical Manager
Thats a British and to an extent an American concept that council houses have
to be of a more downmarket design than private houses and have less features
and facilities. In many parts of Europe, the Far East and South America council
houses are trendsetters.
Jim Racker
wrote:
> A warning. . be careful , we are getting over run with emmits moving down
>here permenantly - selling up houses in areas of higher value and pricing
>our kids out of the locality. You may not be as welcome as you think.
I'll learn to speak Kernow, okay? <g>
Jim
International Man of Mystery
"lurker" <i_lu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9gjph$2u96p$1...@ID-33576.news.dfncis.de...
Even at the bets of times outsides are not welcome in Cornwall.
International Man of Mystery
news:3cbb285a...@news.freeserve.net...
> Thanks to all for a great bunch of responses!
>
> International Man of Mystery: I know what you
> mean about the designs!
> They don't look much, but boy, are some
> of those earlier council houses built like brick
> s...outhouses!
They are also "insulationless". This can be adressed somewhat by double
glazing, cavity wall insulation and 1 foot of Rockwool in the loft.
The roof of a house always makes it look far better. Council homes always
had cheap to make roofs with good material. If you want a good looking
house spend 1/3 of the house build budget on the roof. With ex council
homes it is best to extend the roof out on the gable end and fit barge
boards. It doen't cost that much but the place is transformed in looks.
And while at it put on the roof good quailty attractive tiles. It will not
look ex council and the value will rocket.
> My 1952 ex-council house is
> bog-standard breeze-block inner
> walls and brick outer walls, Crittall
> windows and a poured bitumen ground
> floor. It makes me laugh when I'm
> upstairs in a modern house and I can
> practically put my fist through
> the plasterboard!
You have to note that council house had a 100 year plus lifespan and where
designed to be maintained at a minimum cost. Hence over engineered at time.
A house does not require "solid" walls. How often do you actually touch a
wall in a house? Not often. Timber farmed house are brilliant in that they
can have sound deadening material in the voids. It is the lack of noise
that makes a house seen "solid" not the density of the wall material. Timber
framed houses can be very quiet and cheaper to make.
> And what about those yukky timber-framed Wimpey and
> Barrat homes in the 1980s? Awful.
Some of them were very well made and all are still going strong. Nothing
wrong with timber framed houses, nearly all of the USA, Canada and
Scandinavia have this type of house and they work very well in severe
climates of excessive heat and cold. There are also some very badly made
brick and block homes, but no one mentions that too much, if it is timber
frame that gives trouble there is an uproar.
Take out the timber of a brick and block home and there is little left.
Timber still plays a major part in home construction.
> Only from the outside do these houses often
> lack in asthetic appeal.
See above re: roof.