Myson Kickspace heater

[Tricky Dicky]

We have a Myson Kickspace heater in the kitchen which has never been particularly good at heating the kitchen. Recently we have noticed it does not seem to come on. I originally thought it may be the fan motor or the low temp switch. The fan motor is OK, so the next suspect was the low temp. switch, I switched the heating right up radiators and pipe work all blazing hot, still nothing on further investigation I noticed that neither the flow or return pipes were getting warm. I tried venting it and got a steady spray of water and also noticed the flow pipe got slightly warmer no change on the return. There are only two 1/4 turn shut off valves on flexible pipes both are fully open, this to me suggests the matrix may be clogged.

Has anyone with any experience of these things had similar problems? Are they prone to getting clogged? The last time I did any work on the heating system, it was flushed and inhibitor added and as I said the heater worked.

Richard

[Tim+]

How are they connected to the rest of the system? We had similar problems
with ours and I realised that the braided flex hoses used weren't rated for
CH use. I think the bore of these gets narrowed after continuous use at
high temperatures. Your quarter turn shut off valves might not be helping
things either unless they're full bore.

In my kitchen I replaced the flexy hoses with long lengths of speedfit pipe
bent into long "C" shapes under the units. This gives plenty of slack to
pull the heater out for any servicing or repair. Since then the heat
output has been vastly better.

Tim

[Tricky Dicky]

As far as I can tell these were provided with the heater so one would presume they are good? They are connected to two pipe stubs coming up through the floor to what was probably a radiator. The radiator valves have been removed two compression elbows and short pipes added to which the flexible hoses are attached. The shut off valves are in the flexible hoses and are right behind the heater. I cannot replace the flexible hoses without removing kitchen cupboards and draining down neither of which I particularly want to do now but rather when the kitchen is replaced.

Richard

[Tim+]

Can you reach the compression joints? Are they much above floor level?

If you have a couple of inches of pipe above the floor I'd use a quick cut
pipe cutter and stick on some push fit elbows and then replace the rest of
the pipework to the heater. If you don't have the extra length to trim off
I'd see if I could undo the compression joint with pump spanner (if you can
reach it) and again replace the pipework. Think about removing part of the
cupboard base to improve access.

Yes, it'll be a pain to do but otherwise I think you'll have to write off
your kickspace heater as a source of heat. If you have a sealed CH system
you can get away without draining down. There will be some mess, but it's
manageable.

Tim

[David]

Not had any problems so far with out two.

I don't want to start dragging the things out, but one thing to check.

You say that the quarter turn valves are part of the flexible hoses.
What is to stop you pulling the unit forwards, sitting it on a shallow
tray, turning the valves off and then disconnecting the heater body from
the flexible hoses?

Gently and slowly, obviously, to catch the water in the heater matrix as
it comes out.

You could then flush the heater matrix through, and also let a little
water flow from each hose to confirm that your problem is not an airlock
in your feed or return pipe.

Cheers

Dave R



--
Windows 8.1 on PCSpecialist box

[Roger Mills]

Could there be an airlock? Have you bled *both* sides independently
(with each valve turned off in turn)?

If you think the matrix may be clogged, you could remove the heater and
flush it through with mains water.

Finally, the system may need balancing - the radiators may be hogging
all the flow, not leaving any for this heater. What happens of you turn
all the radiators off?
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

[Tim+]

All this *may* help but my money is on the hoses being shagged and
replacing hoses and valves with something less restrictive is the long term
answer.

I did all the above before replacing my pipework. Flushing, balancing etc.
Made not a ha'pence worth of difference. Since replacing the pipes I quite
often have to turn the fan off to stop the kitchen overheating (yes, at
this time of year!).

Tim

[Tricky Dicky]

Roger and Dave, I can access the valves to isolate the heater removing it was my first thought I am not getting any heat from it anyway so taking out will be no problem. I will first try a flush out under mains pressure, it will also give me the opportunity to clean out some of the fluff and other detritus accumulated in the vanes.

I will while it is off drain each valve separately in case of an air lock, though I think that is unlikely, never say never.

Tim+ replacing the hoses is a drain down job so not really on at this time of year. When the kitchen is replaced we may well be looking for a different solution. If we stay with Kickspace heaters I will certainly follow your advice.

Richard

[David]

Just to note that we have a wall thermostat wired to the electrickery
which drives the fans, so generally the kick space heaters don't come on
for very long, and mainly first thing in the morning.

So far they seem to be effective but they have only been in a couple of
years.

[Tricky Dicky]

Got the heater out eventually with a lot of cussing and calling on divine intervention thanks to the feckless prat who installed it saving on a few inches of copper such that you could not pull the unit forward enough to clear the front of the cupboard. Anyway there was a little bit of sludge in the matrix which soon flushed out, opened the two valves one immediately flushed the other however nothing except the slightest of trickles. So as Tim+ said it is at least a replacement hose, but that will have to wait until better weather as it means a drain down and the removal of kitchen units to get at the pipes. So thanks to all for the advice and I will post again when I get it sorted just in case I find some other issue.

Richard

[Roger Mills]

On 17/02/2016 13:48, Tricky Dicky wrote:
> Got the heater out eventually with a lot of cussing and calling on divine intervention thanks to the feckless prat who installed it saving on a few inches of copper such that you could not pull the unit forward enough to clear the front of the cupboard. Anyway there was a little bit of sludge in the matrix which soon flushed out, opened the two valves one immediately flushed the other however nothing except the slightest of trickles. So as Tim+ said it is at least a replacement hose, but that will have to wait until better weather as it means a drain down and the removal of kitchen units to get at the pipes. So thanks to all for the advice and I will post again when I get it sorted just in case I find some other issue.
>
> Richard

Can you poke some stranded wire up the non-functioning hose to try to
dislodge whatever is blocking it? Or connect it for a few seconds to a
mains water supply, to try to back-flush it? Are you sure that its
quarter turn valve is opening fully?

[Tricky Dicky]

The valve is opening and I did consider trying a poke through but with very little pipe to hold onto and lying flat on the floor while trying to manoeuvre two arms under kitchen cupboards I did not fancy trying to stem the flood when it came even though it is a pressurised system, plus I was worried that if I damaged the flexible pipe I really would have a major job on my hands. We have managed most of the winter without it working so until milder weather. I did try flushing under pressure from the filler hose, the pressure relief valve on the boiler does not kick in until it exceeds 3 bar but that did not do anything.

Richard

[Roger Mills]

On 17/02/2016 14:54, Tricky Dicky wrote:
> The valve is opening and I did consider trying a poke through but with very little pipe to hold onto and lying flat on the floor while trying to manoeuvre two arms under kitchen cupboards I did not fancy trying to stem the flood when it came even though it is a pressurised system, plus I was worried that if I damaged the flexible pipe I really would have a major job on my hands. We have managed most of the winter without it working so until milder weather. I did try flushing under pressure from the filler hose, the pressure relief valve on the boiler does not kick in until it exceeds 3 bar but that did not do anything.
>
> Richard

I presume it's not on a separate zone, with a zone valve which could be
failing to open?

[Chris J Dixon]

Roger Mills wrote:

>On 17/02/2016 14:54, Tricky Dicky wrote:
>> The valve is opening and I did consider trying a poke through but with very little pipe to hold onto and lying flat on the floor while trying to manoeuvre two arms under kitchen cupboards I did not fancy trying to stem the flood when it came even though it is a pressurised system, plus I was worried that if I damaged the flexible pipe I really would have a major job on my hands. We have managed most of the winter without it working so until milder weather. I did try flushing under pressure from the filler hose, the pressure relief valve on the boiler does not kick in until it exceeds 3 bar but that did not do anything.
>

>I presume it's not on a separate zone, with a zone valve which could be
>failing to open?

To be Part L compliant, I believe it should at least have been
connected via a room thermostat controlling the fan, though this
may predate the requirement.

When I had one installed as part of a kitchen refit, I was
surprised how hard it was to convince those involved that this
was correct.

In my kitchen, it is the only heat source. Since I have set the
thermostat relatively low, it only kicks in on really cold
mornings, as the kitchen is otherwise well enough heated from
cooking and solar gain.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk

Plant amazing Acers.

[Tricky Dicky]

The house is a bungalow, only 7 radiators in the whole property so no zoning. The unit has a low temp switch which prevents the fan coming on until water temp. in the matrix reaches 43C.

Richard

[Chris J Dixon]

Tricky Dicky wrote:

>The house is a bungalow, only 7 radiators in the whole property so no zoning. The unit has a low temp switch which prevents the fan coming on until water temp. in the matrix reaches 43C.

Indeed, so operation depends only on the water temperature, not
that of the room,

[Roger Mills]

On 18/02/2016 17:50, Chris J Dixon wrote:
> Tricky Dicky wrote:
>
>> The house is a bungalow, only 7 radiators in the whole property so no zoning. The unit has a low temp switch which prevents the fan coming on until water temp. in the matrix reaches 43C.
>
> Indeed, so operation depends only on the water temperature, not
> that of the room,
>
> Chris

You may be right, but he didn't actually *say* that. It's still possible
to have a room stat nwired so that the fan only runs when:
* the water is hot enough
AND
* the room is cool enough to need heating.

[Chris J Dixon]

Roger Mills wrote:

>On 18/02/2016 17:50, Chris J Dixon wrote:
>> Tricky Dicky wrote:

>>>Chris J Dixon wrote:

>>>>To be Part L compliant, I believe it should at least have been
>>>>connected via a room thermostat controlling the fan, though this
>>>>may predate the requirement.
>>

>>> The house is a bungalow, only 7 radiators in the whole property so no zoning. The unit has a low temp switch which prevents the fan coming on until water temp. in the matrix reaches 43C.
>>
>> Indeed, so operation depends only on the water temperature, not
>> that of the room,
>

>You may be right, but he didn't actually *say* that. It's still possible
>to have a room stat nwired so that the fan only runs when:
>* the water is hot enough
>AND
>* the room is cool enough to need heating.

As standard, the Myson includes the water temp detector. It is
indeed possible to wire a room stat in series (as in my kitchen),
but there was no mention of anything else, in response to my
statement (reinserted above) which was snipped.

[Roger Mills]

Indeed - but the bit I snipped only says what *is* there - not what
*isn't*. Since he didn't mention a room stat, you assumed that there
wasn't one. I wasn't sure, but did say "you may well be right".

[Tricky Dicky]

There is no seperate room stat for the Kickspace heater only a single programmable room stat for the entire system situated in the lounge and TRVs on all radiators except lounge and bathroom. As someone has already mentioned the Kickspace heater has the facility to have one but would only be viable if the kitchen was zoned.

Richard

[Tim+]

Having a wall stat controlling the fan would give "good enough" control
without needing a zone valve as well I would have thought.

Tim

[Tricky Dicky]

When this one was working all the radiators in the house would be giving off heat before the fan kicked in due to the 43C switch and of course once the room stat got up to set temp. the Kickspace heater was off too. Any room stat used with it would need to be connected to a zone valve which in turn would have to switch the pump on in order to circulate water. The only use a room stat for it would be to stop excess heat whilst cooking in the kitchen and that never was a problem.

Richard

[Tim+]

Yes, but once you fix the hoses you might find that it's overheating the
kitchen when the CH is on. Ours certainly does sometimes now. When I get a
round tuit I plan to fit a room stat.

Tim

[David]

We don't have a zone valve and we do have a wall thermostat specifically
for the two kickspace heaters.

It works "well enough" that the kickspace heaters will come on whilst the
CH is running if the room needs extra heating.

We can also bring the wireless thermostat into the room if we need it.

Zoning would perhaps be more sophisticated, but it is certainly not a
requirement.

[Tricky Dicky]

Tim+ and David I am encouraged by your reports that the Kickspace heaters are working well for because to be honest it would be the ideal solution for any new kitchen. Our kitchen is 3 x 2.6m galley type kitchen with a door at each end, any replacement will have the same layout the only changes being where appliances will be and types of cupboard. This does not leave much scope for using traditional radiators so Kickspace heaters would be a convenient solution. It is my intention to get the one we have working and see how it performs. The one we have is the Myson 500 and having had the opportunity to remove it and fettle it a bit the actual heat exchanger matrix seems quite small about a third the size of the radiator in the bathroom which is a marginally smaller room. So is this heater adequate and if not how many are needed for our kitchen?

Richard

[Roger Mills]

On 19/02/2016 18:38, Tricky Dicky wrote:
> Tim+ and David I am encouraged by your reports that the Kickspace heaters are working well for because to be honest it would be the ideal solution for any new kitchen. Our kitchen is 3 x 2.6m galley type kitchen with a door at each end, any replacement will have the same layout the only changes being where appliances will be and types of cupboard. This does not leave much scope for using traditional radiators so Kickspace heaters would be a convenient solution. It is my intention to get the one we have working and see how it performs. The one we have is the Myson 500 and having had the opportunity to remove it and fettle it a bit the actual heat exchanger matrix seems quite small about a third the size of the radiator in the bathroom which is a marginally smaller room. So is this heater adequate and if not how many are needed for our kitchen?
>
> Richard

Our kitchen - installed in 2009 - is a re-use of what was originally a
built-in garage, so its floor was about 150mm lower than the rest of the
house. This provided the opportunity to install wet underfloor heating
as part of the job of raising the floor level. This works brilliantly,
and doesn't take up *any* wall space.

[David]

A few points:

(1) The kickspace heater is a fan heater and so blows air through the
heater matrix (much like the heater in a car) and thus is more efficient
at transferring heat from the hot water to the air. Also, thinking about
it, the heat transfer surface is all those little fins so the actual
surface area is probably quite high for the volume. [I am assuming that it
is a traditional radiator or towel rail in the bathroom.] Without the fan
the heat output is very low - which is just as well as you don't have a TRV
to stop the water flowing. Remember not to store anything "heat sensitive"
just above the kickspace heater.

(2) Calculate the volume of the room, use a converter to see how many BTU
you need, and match that to the nearest Myson (or other brand) heater.
Sanity check to see if you have the correct size. A thermostat is a good
idea because you can chuck a lot of heat into the room when cooking.

(3) We have a large living/dining room and kitchen which has a galley
kitchen along one side (using all the wall space), bifolds along another
side, and a log burner and cupboard space (plus internal door) along the
third side. This leaves only one wall to hang a radiator.

So we have a (quite large) radiator on one wall with a TRV to provide the
main heating when required, and the two kickspace heaters to provide a
rapid warm up. We don't really expect them to come on much during the day,
just first thing in the morning.

On general principles all radiators should if possible have TRVs (you need
some volume available to prevent the boiler cycling AIUI) to prevent an
individual room overheating if the boiler linked thermostat in another
room is calling for heat. For kickspace heaters you can't normally use a
TRV so the wall thermostat is the usual option.

As a side effect the kickspace heaters in our system provide the "always
on" radiator volume which means we can run with TRVs on all wall mounted
radiators.

In our case, also we also need a thermostat because the thermal gain even
in winter is enough to heat the room on a sunny day. Again if the log
burner is lit you don't want the kickspace heaters chucking out additional
heat.

>
>
So - not happy that the flexible hoses supplied with the heater are a
known source of failure.

Still wondering about the small possibility of an airlock somewhere
obscure in your system which would stop water flowing without a direct
flush back through the flexible pipe (as suggested up thread).

Also toying with the idea of persuading a vascular surgeon to put a stent
in your flexible pipe. Or just gently push a length of small bore flexible
plastic tubing up the pipe to provide a restricted flow until you can fix
it.

[Tricky Dicky]

Roger the floor in our kitchen is a suspended T&G boarded floor, I am not sure if this is suitable for underfloor heating and imagine may involve more work than it is worth to do it. Besides just about every service gas, electricity and water run under this floor and I do not want to create a situation where access to these services becomes difficult.

David my feeling is that it is as Tim+ pointed out a problem with the hose rather than an air lock, the heater has worked and it was only recently we noticed it was not kicking in. The heating system consists of a combi boiler in an airing cupboard in the bathroom roughly centrally placed. Two 22mm pipes bring the flow and return below the floor teeing into two 15mm pipes which run the full length of the house under the lounge and through under one of the bedrooms with radiators at the end of these two main pipes one in the lounge and one in the bedroom. All other radiators branch off these two pipes. The kitchen heater comes off the branch leading to the lounge radiator and these are the only radiators that side of the boiler. We have never had any problem with flow to the lounge radiator and the kitchen one is a short branch off the main pipe work no more than 2m max.

Since we moved in to the property I have drained down the system twice once to reposition some badly placed radiators and replace a couple that were rusted externally and looked different to the rest. The second time was to tidy up pipe work that had been poorly connected to the previous system resulting in a tangle of pipes making part of the airing cupboard unusable and to rationalise the rather tortuous route the flow and return were taking through an old fireplace that at one time housed a back boiler, I also separated pipes to enable insulation to be put on where none had been present before this mainly involved cutting sections out of each branch and reconnecting. On both these occasions what drained out was very clear, cleaner was run through the system after flushing under mains pressure and inhibitor add. We have had little need to vent radiators although I do on occasion only to find no air and clear water. Once pressurised the system holds pressure quite well and in the near 3 years we have been here it has only needed to be re- pressured as a result of plumbing work described. In fact the only sludge that came out of any note was from flushing the Kickspace heater matrix and the one flexible pipe that flushed.

Richard

[Jase]

replying to Tricky Dicky, Jase wrote:
I have the same problem. Reading the thread I didn’t think it could possibly
be the flexi hoses but sure enough, it was! Thanks all

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/myson-kickspace-heater-1108670-.htm

[ARW]

On 14/01/2018 16:14, Jase wrote:
> replying to Tricky Dicky, Jase wrote:
> I have the same problem. Reading the thread I didn’t think it could
> possibly
> be the flexi hoses but sure enough, it was! Thanks all
>

And time travel?

How did you sort that one out?

--
Adam