Fridge ventilation

[Tim Lamb]

Argument with kitchen designer... there's no provision to ventilate the
fridge... yes but it is integrated!

Can you reasonably stuff a fridge or freezer in a wooden box and expect
no efficiency losses?
--
Tim Lamb

[Davey]

I would have thought that, theoretically, no, practically, maybe,
possibly, also depending on the size of the box compared to the 'fridge.
What do the Instructions for Installation say? It sounds like a recipe
for over-heated components, and a short life, but the designer will be
gone by then.
How does the designer explain how the heat is going to be taken away
from the radiator at the back without re-heating the 'fridge?
--
Davey.

[metric...@yahoo.com]

I thought all integrated fridges have a vent at the base. Like this one:
http://www.bosch-home.co.uk/our-products/fridges-and-freezers/fridges/KUL15A60GB.html

There are several good reasons to avoid integrated appliances.
What make and model fridge was he suggesting?

[Martin Brown]

No. The heat it pumps out from it's interior has to go somewhere and the
free flow of air over the radiator is required for maximum efficiency.
There may be some with a fan to blow air where needed.

Most fridge freezers have hidden in the small print somewhere their
precise requirements for local environment. And they can be seriously
tetchy - some modern fridge/freezers will not work at all in a garage!
(defrosts completely if ambient temperature is below 5C)

Most units you can find spec details online to check.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Man at B&Q]

On Oct 17, 11:55 am, metric_tr...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I thought all integrated fridges have a vent at the base. Like this one:http://www.bosch-home.co.uk/our-products/fridges-and-freezers/fridges...

>
> There are several good reasons to avoid integrated appliances.
> What make and model fridge was he suggesting?

Not a lot of use when you are trying to vent *warm* air.

MBQ

[Man at B&Q]

On Oct 17, 12:12 pm, Martin Brown <|||newspam...@nezumi.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

> On 17/10/2012 11:24, Tim Lamb wrote:
>
> > Argument with kitchen designer... there's no provision to ventilate the
> > fridge... yes but it is integrated!
>
> > Can you reasonably stuff a fridge or freezer in a wooden box and expect
> > no efficiency losses?
>
> No. The heat it pumps out from it's interior has to go somewhere and the
> free flow of air over the radiator is required for maximum efficiency.
> There may be some with a fan to blow air where needed.
>
> Most fridge freezers have hidden in the small print somewhere their
> precise requirements for local environment. And they can be seriously
> tetchy - some modern fridge/freezers will not work at all in a garage!
> (defrosts completely if ambient temperature is below 5C)

It's not an old/modern issue, it's the design of the cooling circuit
and how it reacts to already being (or thinking it is) cold enough due
to the low ambient.

MBQ

[Davey]

The link above shows a Bosch Integrated 'Fridge, which clearly shows
pictures of the Air In and Air Out both using the integral vent
underneath the unit, so that one is obviously designed for just this
arrangement.
That is not to say that all are, but that one is.
--
Davey.

[RobertL]

On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 11:36:37 AM UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:
> Argument with kitchen designer... there's no provision to ventilate the fridge... yes but it is integrated! Can you reasonably stuff a fridge or freezer in a wooden box and expect no efficiency losses? -- Tim Lamb

You are right.

take a look here:

http://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/help/buying-advice/installation-advice/3493-integrated-fridge-and-freezer-installatio.html

Robert

[metric...@yahoo.com]

Martin Brown wrote:
>Most fridge freezers have hidden in the small print somewhere
>their precise requirements for local environment.
>And they can be seriously tetchy - some modern fridge/freezers
>will not work at all in a garage!
>(defrosts completely if ambient temperature is below 5C)

The standard is EN 153:
Class N suitable between 16 to 32 °C
Class SN suitable between 10 to 32 °C
Class ST suitable between 18 to 38 °C
Class T suitable between 18 to 43 °C

UK models are often quoted as 'SN-ST' i.e. 10 to 38 °C
Despite the climate class, some will work beyond I've seen some products claim to be suitable for use in a garage. For example:
http://www.electrolux-ui.com/2010/820/419819EN.pdf

[Martin Brown]

Rubbish. It is a quirk of the choice of refrigerant liquid and one of
them effectively stops working at 5C ambient. It is fine in a kitchen at
ambient 15C or higher but useless at 5C or lower.

It is particularly disastrous in a freezer since the entire contents
defrost when ambient temperature fall to 5C in the garage for extended
periods and ironically external temperatures are typically sub-zero.

You can find the details online somewhere. I have in the past posted a
link to the relevant mixtures used, boiling points and limitations.
Unfortunately Google groups is no longer able to find it. You really do
need to look very carefully at the ratings plate to spot this!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Martin Brown]

Thanks! Some will some won't.
My brother in law was unlucky... his didn't at all. Very messy!

I have posted a link to this once before but could no longer find it.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[metric...@yahoo.com]

Martin Brown wrote:
>>Despite the climate class, some will work beyond
>

>Thanks! Some will some won't.
>My brother in law was unlucky... his didn't at all.

Yes. As I understand it, the compressor stops working below x degrees and the temperature inside the cabinet rises. It should be made a lot easier to buy something with a specified minimum temperature below 10 degrees.

[Brian Gaff]

My fridge has a solid back made of some kind of corrugated plastic, so these
presumably need no ventilation. No holes in it at all.

Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________


"Tim Lamb" <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:B8EOqytm...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk...

[Brian Gaff]

Having a poke about it seems that mine has some kind of underside eir
extraction system.

Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"Man at B&Q" <manat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8854eebd-78f6-43d6...@v19g2000pbt.googlegroups.com...

[Harry Bloomfield]

Brian Gaff laid this down on his screen :

> My fridge has a solid back made of some kind of corrugated plastic, so these
> presumably need no ventilation. No holes in it at all.
>
> Brian

The heat must be expelled somewhere, are there vents top and bottom?

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

[harry]

Yes they need ventilation. Look in the instruction book.

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

"Brian Gaff" <Bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> My fridge has a solid back made of some kind of corrugated plastic, so
> these presumably need no ventilation. No holes in it at all.

I'd always thought those were made like that to hide the ugly machinery from
delicate female eyes. However an enclosed back would also make it feasible
to have a small fan that pushes the hot air around and - presumably - expels
it. Maybe there's a fan that alternately sucks cold air, and later blows
hot air through the front vent?

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to newsre...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk replacing "aaa" by "284".

[Man at B&Q]

It must have some form of forced ventilation then, which uses more
energy.

MBQ

[Man at B&Q]

On Oct 17, 1:24 pm, Martin Brown <|||newspam...@nezumi.demon.co.uk>

wrote:
> On 17/10/2012 12:18, Man at B&Q wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 17, 12:12 pm, Martin Brown <|||newspam...@nezumi.demon.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> >> On 17/10/2012 11:24, Tim Lamb wrote:
>
> >>> Argument with kitchen designer... there's no provision to ventilate the
> >>> fridge... yes but it is integrated!
>
> >>> Can you reasonably stuff a fridge or freezer in a wooden box and expect
> >>> no efficiency losses?
>
> >> No. The heat it pumps out from it's interior has to go somewhere and the
> >> free flow of air over the radiator is required for maximum efficiency.
> >> There may be some with a fan to blow air where needed.
>
> >> Most fridge freezers have hidden in the small print somewhere their
> >> precise requirements for local environment. And they can be seriously
> >> tetchy - some modern fridge/freezers will not work at all in a garage!
> >> (defrosts completely if ambient temperature is below 5C)
>
> > It's not an old/modern issue, it's the design of the cooling circuit
> > and how it reacts to already being (or thinking it is) cold enough due
> > to the low ambient.
>
> Rubbish. It is a quirk of the choice of refrigerant liquid and one of
> them effectively stops working at 5C ambient. It is fine in a kitchen at
> ambient 15C or higher but useless at 5C or lower.
>

It's because they use a single thermostat in the fridge section. In
cold ambient conditions the set temperature in the fridge is satisfied
and the freezer is never cooled.

> You can find the details online somewhere. I have in the past posted a
> link to the relevant mixtures used, boiling points and limitations.
> Unfortunately Google groups is no longer able to find it. You really do
> need to look very carefully at the ratings plate to spot this!

Didn't take me long to find my explanation, JFGI.

MBQ

[dochol...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 12:18:33 PM UTC+1, Man at B&Q wrote:
> On Oct 17, 12:12 pm, Martin Brown <|||newspam...@nezumi.demon.co.uk>
>

> > Most fridge freezers have hidden in the small print somewhere their
> > precise requirements for local environment. And they can be seriously
> > tetchy - some modern fridge/freezers will not work at all in a garage!
> > (defrosts completely if ambient temperature is below 5C)
>
> It's not an old/modern issue, it's the design of the cooling circuit
> and how it reacts to already being (or thinking it is) cold enough due
> to the low ambient.

Some fridge freezers have a single cooling circuit with the sensor in the fridge part - it's designed so that when the fridge part is at the correct temperature the freezer compartment will be cold enough (though not necessarily up to three star standard). If the outside temperature is low enough the sensor in the fridge stops demanding cooling and the unit switches off.
I don't think these are common any more, and the problem only affected fridge freezers.
That shouldn't be confused with the limitations of the refrigerant used - the compressor no longer works properly if the external temperature is too low, and with some of the ones used these days (since the phasing out of CFCs) 'too low' may be well above freezing. That will affect any refrigeration plant, not just cheapskate fridge-freezers.

[Davey]

Quite likely, but that wasn't the question, the question was about
it being possible.
--
Davey.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <3cf98599-cda8-4016...@googlegroups.com>,
metric...@yahoo.com writes

She:-)

Not specified. The kitchen company supply the housing and door leaving
me to fund the appliance.

I may easily have misunderstood her drawing.

--
Tim Lamb

[Tim Lamb]

In message <c60514b8-4ff7-411e...@googlegroups.com>,
RobertL <rober...@yahoo.com> writes

Quite!

We are having to fit *under counter units for the usual space reasons.

--
Tim Lamb

[Chris J Dixon]

I had a similar discussion about ovens. I had read the full
instructions, which specified ventilation, the designer had
apparently never read this. They were added.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk

Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

[RobertL]

On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 2:21:31 PM UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
> Brian Gaff laid this down on his screen : > My fridge has a solid back made of some kind of corrugated plastic, so these > presumably need no ventilation. No holes in it at all.

> > Brian The heat must be expelled somewhere, are there vents top and bottom?

The heat is probably meant to be conducted to the air by the corrugated back. But that heated air still needs to convect away.

Robert

[metric...@yahoo.com]

Tim Lamb wrote:
>>What make and model fridge was he suggesting?
>
>She:-)

Oops. I'm not as free of casual sex stereotyping as I thought.

>Not specified. The kitchen company supply the housing and door
>leaving me to fund the appliance.

I'd like to read a post from you saying you're considering alternatives to built-in appliances. I don't really know why I care because none of my business.

[Chris J Dixon]

metric...@yahoo.com wrote:

>I'd like to read a post from you saying you're considering alternatives to built-in appliances. I don't really know why I care because none of my business.

When we were re-doing our kitchen, we initially contemplated a
built-in fridge freezer. The overall dimensions were similar to
the freestanding one that we were replacing, but the capacity
figures were so much lower, that initially I did not believe
them. I checked further and it was simply the greatly increased
thickness of insulation in modern appliances.

We were so nearly caught out, but eventually went for a 2 m high
Miele, with which we are very pleased. A substantial piece of
work, the interior arrangement seems to accommodate all we need
with ease. Although this is not a cheap fridge, it came in
significantly less expensive than a built-in plus housing.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <07029b89-22dd-4f9e...@googlegroups.com>,
metric...@yahoo.com writes

The last kitchen I installed was in 1995 so I could easily be out of
touch.

This is kitchen diner and the fridge, freezer will face into the dining
area.

I was alerted to this issue by the house my daughter is renting which
has all the appliances concealed behind tight fitting doors. It may be
there is some provision for venting above head height or at plinth level
but nothing obvious.

--
Tim Lamb

[Gazz]

"RobertL" <rober...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:213a72ca-6235-4ff9...@googlegroups.com...

On those types of fridge/freezer the condenser coils are on the sides, just
under the outer metal skin, apparently done to prevent condensation build up
on the outer walls that bothered some people,
the destructions warn about leaving a certain gap around all sides on these
types of units,

The fridge freezer i have is one of those which only has an evaporator plate
in the freezer section, and uses ducts and a fan to draw cold air into the
fridge compartment above the freezer,

It seems the compressor thermostat is in the freezer, the fridges thermostat
works the internal circulation fan and flaps, as i often hear the fridge's
fan start up and run for quite a while before the compressor starts up,

[Alan Braggins]

In article <k5mfln$tra$2...@n102.xanadu-bbs.net>, Davey wrote:
>"Man at B&Q" <manat...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> On Oct 17, 12:25=C2=A0pm, Davey <da...@example.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> > The link above shows a Bosch Integrated 'Fridge, which clearly shows
>> > pictures of the Air In and Air Out both using the integral vent
>> > underneath the unit, so that one is obviously designed for just this
>> > arrangement.
>>

>> It must have some form of forced ventilation then, which uses more
>> energy.
>

>Quite likely, but that wasn't the question, the question was about
>it being possible.

The question was can you do it "and expect no efficiency losses".

If you need more energy for forced ventilation, that's an efficiency
loss compared with a fridge doing the same job without needing forced
ventilation.