Hand pumps for allotment
Tim Watts
Anyone got any recommendations for hand water pumps and pick up filters?
We've got some new allotments round the back of a meadow. unfortunately
there's no water, but there is a stream with permission by the EA for
abstraction.
The stream water is nominally clear and flowing and about 3-4m from the
edge of the allotments.
However, the pump would have to lift the water about 2m up over a flood
control berm. Obviously the pickup is going to need some sort of filter
to prevent crud getting in.
Naturally as there's no mains water, there's also no electricity.
Ideally some sort of rotary hand cranked pump or lever pump that could
be fixed to a wooden post. It's only for filling cans and buckets -
though conceivably someone could plug a hose in and fill a butt.
I've come across stuff like this:
http://www.justoffbase.co.uk/s.nl/it.A/id.71293/.f
Would something like that be upto the job? Is there something better
suited (like a modern hand well pump)? And where would one get suitable
pickup "boxes" (don't know the name for these) from?
I don't really know where to start looking - any pointers would be
really handy.
Ta
Tim
--
Tim Watts
Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.
Andy Dingley
> Anyone got any recommendations for hand water pumps and pick up filters?
Find the relevant Intermediate Technology handbook, a couple of old
car tyres (biggest softest sidewalls you can find) and make the
"rocking tyre bellows" pump. Looks like shit, not much delivery head,
no suction lift to speak of, but if you want to pump a large volume of
water manually, against a modest delivery through a decent diameter of
hose, then there's nothing to beat it.
Adam Aglionby
Hydraulic ram, constantly flowing water
http://www.greenandcarter.com/
Bit more affordable
http://www.judyofthewoods.net/ram_pump.html
Cheers
Adam
Tim Watts
Interesting.
But seriously... (and there's not fall to speak of here so a RAM
wouldn't work AFAICS).
I think the folks are happy DIY the installation, but they didn't have
DIYing the pump in mind! ;->>>
Thomas Prufer
>Naturally as there's no mains water, there's also no electricity.
>Ideally some sort of rotary hand cranked pump or lever pump that could
>be fixed to a wooden post. It's only for filling cans and buckets -
>though conceivably someone could plug a hose in and fill a butt.
>
>I've come across stuff like this:
>
>http://www.justoffbase.co.uk/s.nl/it.A/id.71293/.f
>
>Would something like that be upto the job? Is there something better
>suited (like a modern hand well pump)? And where would one get suitable
>pickup "boxes" (don't know the name for these) from?
That rotary pump, if it's anything like the diesel pump I used, it will have a
miserable miserly flow for watering an allotment.
Either go for a cheap two-stroke pump and fill up a butt or three in one go
while the infernal thing is running. Or use what google tells me may be called a
"pitcher pump" -- seems I've seen them in cast iron, from China, for
not-too-much.
Thomas Prufer
JimK
Andrew Mawson
"Tim Watts" <t...@dionic.net> wrote in message
news:hspq5r$844$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
My approach would be a Honda engined pump filling a tank and
distributing by gravity from there. The pump would only need to run
occassionally if you put a big enough tank in.
AWEM
Tim Watts
> Ebay may be your friend:-
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2dq85b7
>
> Cheers
> JimK
Yes, I did that. Unfortunately most of the stuff looks fairly non
applicable for the job. And I still don't know what the pickup thingies
are called?...
I'm thinking "marine" - I'll have a rummage in some of those online
sites. I think we're one step up from a bilge pump though.
There must be something that say a farmer might use for filling a water
trough out in the fields, but I suppose they are just as likely to use a
portable petrol pump caried round on the tractor or buggy.
The guys here aren't after ornate well pumps, just something reasonably
inexpensive (<100 quid) that is good for filling a large bucket and
won't mind a bit of crap.
Cheers
Tim Watts
>
> My approach would be a Honda engined pump filling a tank and
> distributing by gravity from there. The pump would only need to run
> occassionally if you put a big enough tank in.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Honda-WB20XT-Water-Pump-frame-Used-twice-/320529569797?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4aa10d1805
>
> AWEM
>
That's a lateral thought. I'll put it to them. It would need an
enclosure (pikey factor) and a storage tank, or a few butts coupled but
that sort of money isn't insane (though it might be more than they have
in the kitty right now!).
Cheers
JimK
You've seen the fully working one for £37 delivered then? ;>)
From those on ebay, it seems a working well pump (however ornate)
would fit the bill nicely - shouldn't mind a bit of crap, no power
required, cheap, simple to fix, should pull 2m head (I expect a well
would be at least 2m - to need a pump)....
Cheers
JimK
JimK
>
> > Ebay may be your friend:-
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/2dq85b7
>
> > Cheers
> > JimK
>
> Yes, I did that. Unfortunately most of the stuff looks fairly non
> applicable for the job. And I still don't know what the pickup thingies
> are called?...
oops forgot-
"suction filter"? what's in the stream/likely to need filtering?
Cheers
JimK
Dave Liquorice
> However, the pump would have to lift the water about 2m up over a flood
> control berm. Obviously the pickup is going to need some sort of filter
> to prevent crud getting in.
It'll be hard work lifting the water over the berm with a manual
pump. I'd read the small print very carefully on the cast iron well
pumps. They might just be decorative or not have decent valves/seals.
Mr Dingley's rocking tyre bellows sounds interesting but google only
appears to return his post... Think I'd be tempted to look at what
the third world do and copy that. So maybe an archimedes screw or
water wheel but they are normally powered by livestock. A counter
balanced arm with bucket on a rope might be a goer or just a made
path to a made place with water flowing through to keep it clear into
which people can dunk their buckets.
With 2m head to play with how about a row of butts (1m high) and an
area to collect rain water into those butts, this could also be used
to dump water onto from the counter balanced arm and thus into the
butts.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Tim Lamb
<t...@dionic.net> writes
Battery and 12V pump?
Cars and allotments go together in my experience:-)
regards
>
--
Tim Lamb
Tim Watts
> You've seen the fully working one for �37 delivered then? ;>)
>
> From those on ebay, it seems a working well pump (however ornate)
> would fit the bill nicely - shouldn't mind a bit of crap, no power
> required, cheap, simple to fix, should pull 2m head (I expect a well
> would be at least 2m - to need a pump)....
>
> Cheers
>
> JimK
Hi Jim,
I hadn't thought of that - worth looking at possibly.
<goes to to look again>
JimK
wrote:
> On Sun, 16 May 2010 23:04:42 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:
> > However, the pump would have to lift the water about 2m up over a flood
> > control berm. Obviously the pickup is going to need some sort of filter
> > to prevent crud getting in.
>
> It'll be hard work lifting the water over the berm with a manual
> pump.
If I'm imagining right... once the pipework was full of water surely
there'll be a helpful siphon effect over the "hump"/berm?
Cheers
JimK
Tim Watts
Bit of sediment, light sand probably. It runs mostly clear on a good day
but the bottom is just clay and when it rains, it goes completely muddy.
I don't think a lot of what's in suspension is likely to be an issue,
other than settling in any low bits of pipe, and it's possibly to avoid
that.
But there's bound to be heavier particulates, especially as the water is
only about 6-10" deep - so dropping a pipe on the bottom is likely to
suck up all the crap. I'm thinking cyliner, industrial bean can sized,
made of very fine mesh. The flowing water should be able to wash the
outside surface and anything that gets past a metal mesh is unlikely to
affect a pump designed for well use.
Tim Watts
A beam isn't a silly idea! Problem is at the moment is all sorts of
elderly folk are trying to scramble down the berm to drop a bucket on a
rope into the water.
A 2 degree simple beam made of scrap iron pipe or timber could work.
Attach bucket, swing beam through 90 degrees, drop beam, and bucket into
the water, lift and swing back.
JimK
yeah - I'm initially imagining a dip pipe mounted centrally on/in an
Earlex combi vac wet and dry filter :>)....maybe wrapped with fine
(stainless?) mesh instead of the pleated filter.....tho maybe worth
experimenting as is? tho don't know how they'd cope with continuous
immersion.....
UV proof plastic container/tub with snap-on lid could be better for
longer term (to mount the filter screen)?
Cut sections of sidewalls out and replace with filter screen, keep lid
and use to mount dip pipe??
Ramblin now ;>)
Cheers
JimK
Tim Watts
> Battery and 12V pump?
>
> Cars and allotments go together in my experience:-)
>
Not this one sadly - can't get a car anywhere near it (parking is 400
yards away). However, you have sparked an idea. One of these things
solar might be good for.
12V leisure lead-acid battery, panel+charger, decent pump. Caravan pump
would be a bit slow, but could be paralleled. Have to make sure it's a
self priming one. Normally those only lift a metre but I'm sure they
could manage more.
I'll go and spec what sort of panel might charge a battery in a
reasonable time. The good thing is when it's sunny is when you need more
water so it could work quite well. Fence post in ground, panel on top
(like those parking meters have), pipe, outlet and switch bolted to the
side and battery + pump(s) in a box on the ground.
It could work!
JimK
could be one helluva queue on a sunday morning ...;>))
JimK
Andy Dingley
> Hydraulic ram, constantly flowing water
Hydraulic rams aren't a means of pumping water, they're an excuse to
spend all day pratting around with hydraulic rams! 8-)
I'd build more hydraulic rams for low-volume high-lift. but I wouldn't
bother for 6' lift over a berm.
One of the problems with hydraulic rams (and their virtue) is that
they run 24x7. This means that you have to build them pretty well, or
else they _will_ break or wear out. You can cut corners on an
intermittent-use pump that you can drain down over the winter that you
just can't get away with for a ram.
Rams also need a little fall to work from, whereas a pump can pump
from a static pond. Unless your fall is steep, or your river frontage
is long, it can be difficult to find two points far enough apart
vertically. This is also likely to mean a long intake pipe, which
means scope for blockages.
> http://www.greenandcarter.com/
Wow, let's go straight to the Bentley market. I can't afford G&C kit.
> http://www.judyofthewoods.net/ram_pump.html
Ewww...... Pipe reservoirs. Horrible bloody things. Get a big fat
cylinder (i.e. shorter) on there, even if you have to call in favours
to get the welding done (or just see it as one of the few times a
cheap stick welder is domestically useful).
Peter Parry
>Anyone got any recommendations for hand water pumps and pick up filters?
As this is diy - an Emas
http://vimeo.com/8365884
http://blip.tv/file/2445319
http://www.emas-international.de/index.php?id=105
http://www.food-security.info/pdf%20%28English%29/ECHO%20%28English%29/PVCBallValvePumps.pdf
Rope Pump
http://www.ropepumps.org/
or Canzee pump.
Andrew Mawson
Fuel transfer pump designed to fill JCB tank from 45 gallon drum. Pump
is at bottom of pipe so pushing not sucking and self primes.
AWEM
Dave Osborne
>>
>
> A beam isn't a silly idea! Problem is at the moment is all sorts of
> elderly folk are trying to scramble down the berm to drop a bucket on a
> rope into the water.
>
> A 2 degree simple beam made of scrap iron pipe or timber could work.
>
> Attach bucket, swing beam through 90 degrees, drop beam, and bucket into
> the water, lift and swing back.
>
What, kind of like a ducking stool? ;-)
Dave Liquorice
> A 2 degree simple beam made of scrap iron pipe or timber could work.
>
> Attach bucket, swing beam through 90 degrees, drop beam, and bucket into
> the water, lift and swing back.
Aye, counter balanced so you have to work to get the empty bucket
down to the water rather than lifting it when full (ie heavy). I
suspect it might be best if the bucket was permenant to the arm. IIRC
the ones used in places forgien have holes in so they fill and sink
quickly but not holes so big that it's empty by the time you've
hoiked it out and poured the contents. That's partly another reason
for a "big funnel" and a row of butts to fill. I wonder if a weight
on the bucket rim to make it unstable would work to get it to tip and
fill?
--
Cheers
Dave.
Dave Liquorice
> "suction filter"? what's in the stream/likely to need filtering?
Or "trash filter". I think you could make something with a catering
sized bean tin and a hammer and nail, if it only lasts a year
catering sized bean cans are easy to find... Attaching the lift pipe
might be more interesting, might be worth making that of something
more durable, plastic or stainless steel.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Dave Liquorice
> From those on ebay, it seems a working well pump (however ornate)
> would fit the bill nicely - shouldn't mind a bit of crap, no power
> required, cheap, simple to fix, should pull 2m head (I expect a well
> would be at least 2m - to need a pump)....
I think with proper wells with hand pumps the pump is down the bottom
of the well with a meachnical linkage to the handle at the top. My
thinking is that the lift pipe will never stay full of water and
trying to lift a 2m column of water with air just ain't going to work
particulary well.
Put the pump at the bottom just above or even below the water level
it doesn't matter if the pipe drains you just refill it with a few
pumps of the handle.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Dave Liquorice
> 12V leisure lead-acid battery, panel+charger, decent pump. Caravan pump
> would be a bit slow, but could be paralleled. Have to make sure it's a
> self priming one. Normally those only lift a metre but I'm sure they
> could manage more.
Like the well pump in another post put it at the water level so it's
pushing the water not lifting it.
I think you'll find you'll need a large (read expensive) solar panel,
a pikey target... oh and the battery would be target as well.
Another thought battery drill and a drill pump?
--
Cheers
Dave.
JimK
wrote:
> On Mon, 17 May 2010 00:54:26 -0700 (PDT), JimK wrote:
> > From those on ebay, it seems a working well pump (however ornate)
> > would fit the bill nicely - shouldn't mind a bit of crap, no power
> > required, cheap, simple to fix, should pull 2m head (I expect a well
> > would be at least 2m - to need a pump)....
>
> I think with proper wells with hand pumps the pump is down the bottom
> of the well with a meachnical linkage to the handle at the top. My
> thinking is that the lift pipe will never stay full of water and
> trying to lift a 2m column of water with air just ain't going to work
> particulary well.
>
maybe - but my imagining of the OP scenario is the 2m figure is the
height of the flood control berm between allotments and stream - i.e.
I'm assuming the allotments and stream are at very similar levels
(hence the need for siting flood defences) - so I imagine the pipe
would be "_n_" shaped.. rather than a 2m vertical.
If the pipe had a valve just before the pump then I can't see how it
could empty itself overnight say ..
Could it anyway due to the siphon effect of the "_n_" shape?
Cheers
JimK
Andy Dingley
> I don't really know where to start looking - any pointers would be
> really handy.
The tyre treadle pump is described in this book
"How to Make and Use the Treadle Irrigation Pump"
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1853393126/codesmiths (Out
of stock at Amazon though)
Another idea is the "rope & washer" pump, which uses rubber disks from
old tyres, pulled upwards through a pipe.
http://tilz.tearfund.org/Publications/Footsteps+1-10/Footsteps+7/Technology+for+Garden+Irrigation.htm
Other ideas at
http://www.journeytoforever.org/at_waterpump.html
Owain
> > Cars and allotments go together in my experience:-)
> Not this one sadly - can't get a car anywhere near it (parking is 400
> yards away).
Is there a fire hydrant anywhere near there. Because 400 yds of garden
hose shouldn't cost that much, or you could use a tank on a barrow.
Does the meadow the other side have any water supply - might be easier
to throw a hose over the stream
> However, you have sparked an idea. One of these things
> solar might be good for.
Do you need bulk supplies of water, or could you use trickle
irrigation, in which case you might not need a battery at all, just a
solar pump.
Owain
David WE Roberts
> On 17/05/10 09:08, Dave Liquorice wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 May 2010 23:04:42 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:
>>
>>> However, the pump would have to lift the water about 2m up over a flood
>>> control berm. Obviously the pickup is going to need some sort of filter
>>> to prevent crud getting in.
>>
>> It'll be hard work lifting the water over the berm with a manual
>> pump. I'd read the small print very carefully on the cast iron well
>> pumps. They might just be decorative or not have decent valves/seals.
>>
>> Mr Dingley's rocking tyre bellows sounds interesting but google only
>> appears to return his post... Think I'd be tempted to look at what
>> the third world do and copy that. So maybe an archimedes screw or
>> water wheel but they are normally powered by livestock. A counter
>> balanced arm with bucket on a rope might be a goer or just a made
>> path to a made place with water flowing through to keep it clear into
>> which people can dunk their buckets.
>>
>> With 2m head to play with how about a row of butts (1m high) and an
>> area to collect rain water into those butts, this could also be used
>> to dump water onto from the counter balanced arm and thus into the
>> butts.
>>
>
> A beam isn't a silly idea! Problem is at the moment is all sorts of
> elderly folk are trying to scramble down the berm to drop a bucket on a
> rope into the water.
Alternative strategy - build a decent set of steps from scrap wood with a
platform at water level to stand on.
Much like a landing stage.
This solves the problem of unsafe scrambling.
Could be temporary - a six foot flight of steps shouldn't be that heavy.
If you have pikey problems then the solar pump is a non-starter.
Far too tempting.
Also, caravan pumps and the like have a very low throughput and are designed
to handle clean water.
Also designed for occasional use.
It might be worth looking at large storage tanks (as used by farms etc.) to
hold a lot of water.
You could then hire (or even borrow) a petrol driven pump for a day and fill
up your storage area.
The aim would be to have enough water to last a month or so.
This assumes you have the spare space for the storage!
Whatever, the simplest strategy seems to be to buy a second hand 2/4 stroke
water pump then sort out storage.
Or to be more flexible, buy a petrol generator and an electric pump.
Then you can use the generator for pumping and also for running power tools.
Or build a 1 metre wier to give you enough head to drive a hydraulic ram :-)
Cheers
Dave R
JimK
thinking on ... if levels of stream and allotments similar - could
you, on the allotment side, dig a hole deep enough so that it would
either fill by itself (like digging on the beach) or use a normal
(powerless) syphon to fill it up? if it's possible you could bury
1000litre IBCs or two (£40 odd quid usually - tho watch what was in
them) and use buckets (at least) to get it out again as necessary??
Cheers
JimK
Chris J Dixon
>A beam isn't a silly idea! Problem is at the moment is all sorts of
>elderly folk are trying to scramble down the berm to drop a bucket on a
>rope into the water.
>
>A 2 degree simple beam made of scrap iron pipe or timber could work.
>
>Attach bucket, swing beam through 90 degrees, drop beam, and bucket into
>the water, lift and swing back.
I do believe you have invented the shadoof.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadoof
I knew that trying to draw one in geography would come in useful
eventually ;-)
Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk
Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.
Tim Watts
> Tim Watts wrote:
>
>> A beam isn't a silly idea! Problem is at the moment is all sorts of
>> elderly folk are trying to scramble down the berm to drop a bucket on a
>> rope into the water.
>>
>> A 2 degree simple beam made of scrap iron pipe or timber could work.
>>
>> Attach bucket, swing beam through 90 degrees, drop beam, and bucket into
>> the water, lift and swing back.
>
> I do believe you have invented the shadoof.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadoof
>
> I knew that trying to draw one in geography would come in useful
> eventually ;-)
>
> Chris
Yes, I do feel 4000 years old after moving 2 tons of aggregate yesterday!
[General reply]
Thanks for all the comments folks. The solar panel re: pikey is a good
point. another good point is throwing the pump into the water - I don;t
think the EA mind as long as it doesn't act as a method of fouling the flow.
Another good point re trickle feeding a tank or multiple cascaded butts
- could use a cheap small panel and a pond fountain pump (after all they
are designed to pump crap) and trickle feed a tank. That way the scope
of the losses are smaller if the pikies have a visit (though it isn't
visible from the road so we might get away with it.)
Onetap
> And I still don't know what the pickup thingies
> are called?...
Foot valve and strainer; the foot valve is a non-return valve, to stop
the water you've raised running back when you stop pumping. They
usually have a strainer attached.
Don't forget any suction 'hose' must be reinforced or sufficiently
rigid to prevent it being sucked flat.
Depending on how stonery the soil is, it may be practical to drill a
hole; the water table will be around the level of the stream, maybe a
bit higher. You can get hand augers for sampling cores or look on the
web for hammer point wells. Mostly US websites, where rural water
supply depends on drilling wells. It would avoid raising water over
the berm and the water would be filtered by the subsoil. Watercourses
shifted around in ancient times so there will be a saturated permeable
subsoil. The stream water will contain whatever has been dumped
upstream. You'd need to fabricate a well-casing. Jet pump at ground
level; most submersible borehole pumps start at 6" diameter. Or look
into making a hand pump from plastic pipe.
In the short term I'd go with the stream and try to find a lawnmower
engine you could attach to a commercial belt-drive pump. E-bay or try
the local scrappy for the latter.
Theo Markettos
> Other ideas at
> http://www.journeytoforever.org/at_waterpump.html
Some more here:
http://www.cd3wd.com/cd3wd_40/vita/pumps6/en/pumps6.htm
including how to make a pump from an old car differential
These basic two-strokes:
http://i42.tinypic.com/rk60p4.jpg
are used on the Nile. Made in India, utterly bombproof, and run for ever on
a can of petrol
I'm not sure where you'd source one in the UK. Though the fenland farmers
must have similar requirements.
Theo
Harry Bloomfield
> Hi,
>
> Anyone got any recommendations for hand water pumps and pick up filters?
>
> there's no water, but there is a stream with permission by the EA for
> abstraction.
>
> The stream water is nominally clear and flowing and about 3-4m from the edge
> of the allotments.
>
> control berm. Obviously the pickup is going to need some sort of filter to
> prevent crud getting in.
>
> some sort of rotary hand cranked pump or lever pump that could be fixed to a
> wooden post. It's only for filling cans and buckets - though conceivably
> someone could plug a hose in and fill a butt.
>
> I've come across stuff like this:
>
> http://www.justoffbase.co.uk/s.nl/it.A/id.71293/.f
>
> Would something like that be upto the job? Is there something better suited
> (like a modern hand well pump)? And where would one get suitable pickup
> "boxes" (don't know the name for these) from?
>
> handy.
No electricity, but what about a 12v battery?
A 12v pump as used in caravans would serve your purpose. They are
designed to be dropped down inside the water barrel and can easily pump
up to a 9 foot head. Your filter, could be as simple as the base of a
small plastic barrel (or bucket) buried in the stream bed with lots of
small holes to filter the courser stuff out.
You could take the battery home to recharge, or charge it via a solar
cell, or even small wind generator.
--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk
Tim Watts
> You could take the battery home to recharge, or charge it via a solar
> cell, or even small wind generator.
>
Hey - a use for B&Q wind generators after all!
Tim Lamb
<56dccc4d-c163-48c6...@m21g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>,
Onetap <One...@talk21.com> writes
>On 17 May, 08:29, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
>> And I still don't know what the pickup thingies
>> are called?...
>
>Foot valve and strainer; the foot valve is a non-return valve, to stop
>the water you've raised running back when you stop pumping. They
>usually have a strainer attached.
>Don't forget any suction 'hose' must be reinforced or sufficiently
>rigid to prevent it being sucked flat.
>
>Depending on how stonery the soil is, it may be practical to drill a
>hole; the water table will be around the level of the stream, maybe a
>bit higher. You can get hand augers for sampling cores or look on the
>web for hammer point wells. Mostly US websites, where rural water
>supply depends on drilling wells. It would avoid raising water over
>the berm and the water would be filtered by the subsoil. Watercourses
>shifted around in ancient times so there will be a saturated permeable
>subsoil. The stream water will contain whatever has been dumped
>upstream. You'd need to fabricate a well-casing. Jet pump at ground
>level; most submersible borehole pumps start at 6" diameter. Or look
>into making a hand pump from plastic pipe.
I have just this set up to top up my pond. The well casing is galvanised
expanded metal sheet. The river is about 20m away and the well just
about keeps up with a mains sump pump (about 10 gallons per minute).
>
>In the short term I'd go with the stream and try to find a lawnmower
>engine you could attach to a commercial belt-drive pump. E-bay or try
>the local scrappy for the latter.
regards
--
Tim Lamb
geoff
Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> writes
--
geoff
Tim Watts
You know, I've *always* wanted to make a well... But as we're on solid
clay here, I don't think I will! It gets hard as plaster about 2.5 foot
down, having been down there searching for my water main last year...
Nightjar
> Hi,
>
> Anyone got any recommendations for hand water pumps and pick up filters?
>
> We've got some new allotments round the back of a meadow. unfortunately
> there's no water, but there is a stream with permission by the EA for
> abstraction.
>
> The stream water is nominally clear and flowing and about 3-4m from the
> edge of the allotments.
>
> However, the pump would have to lift the water about 2m up over a flood
> control berm. Obviously the pickup is going to need some sort of filter
> to prevent crud getting in.
>
> Naturally as there's no mains water, there's also no electricity.
> Ideally some sort of rotary hand cranked pump or lever pump that could
> be fixed to a wooden post. It's only for filling cans and buckets -
> though conceivably someone could plug a hose in and fill a butt.
The ancient Greeks had the same problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes'_screw
> I've come across stuff like this:
>
> http://www.justoffbase.co.uk/s.nl/it.A/id.71293/.f
>
> Would something like that be upto the job? Is there something better
> suited (like a modern hand well pump)? And where would one get suitable
> pickup "boxes" (don't know the name for these) from?
If you really want to ignore ancient wisdom, I have supplied these (not
all as big as in the maain picture) to order without the insect mesh for
use as sump pickup screens. They have 5mm diameter holes without the
insect mesh inside.
http://www.norscreenfilters.co.uk/End_of_line_clamp.htm
Colin Bignell
Jules Richardson
>> Http://www.sandtopia.com.au/shop/water%20well.JPG
>>
>>
> You know, I've *always* wanted to make a well... But as we're on solid
> clay here, I don't think I will! It gets hard as plaster about 2.5 foot
> down, having been down there searching for my water main last year...
I'm tempted to build one of those quant "wishing well" types of
structures, purely to cover up some septic tank caps in the middle of our
lawn :)
We're on a private well here, but it's an 80' deep pipe rather than one
of those wide shafts and a bucket/rope. We do also have an abandoned 4"
piped well with a shed over it which starts at about 20' below ground
level; that has a square shaft of about 3' on each side leading down to
it. I'm not sure why it was ever done that way, rather than the pipe
being brought right up to surface level - maybe an anti-freezing measure.
cheers
Jules
Onetap
wrote:
> We do also have an abandoned 4"
> piped well with a shed over it which starts at about 20' below ground
> level; that has a square shaft of about 3' on each side leading down to
> it. I'm not sure why it was ever done that way, rather than the pipe
> being brought right up to surface level - maybe an anti-freezing measure.
Possibly an old hand-dug well down to the level of the water table,
with a (later?) borehole to make the well deeper and provide a more
reliable water supply in summer and provide cleaner water.
David WE Roberts
> On 17/05/10 21:10, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
>
>> You could take the battery home to recharge, or charge it via a solar
>> cell, or even small wind generator.
>>
>
> Hey - a use for B&Q wind generators after all!
Despite my suggestion about a generator and an electric pump, I would have
thought that if you were putting up any kind of windmill then you would
couple it directly to a pump?
Andrew Mawson
"David WE Roberts" <davidwe...@spamtrap.invalid> wrote in message
news:85f6u2...@mid.individual.net...
The small pylon type wind mills one used to see in fields were
directly coupled water pumps. No point in generating electricity then
using it to produce rotary motion that is already there!
AWEM
Onetap
> > Liquorice <allsortsnotthis...@howhill.com> writes
> >> On Mon, 17 May 2010 09:52:53 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:
>
> >>> 12V leisure lead-acid battery, panel+charger, decent pump. Caravan pump
> >>> would be a bit slow, but could be paralleled. Have to make sure it's a
> >>> self priming one. Normally those only lift a metre but I'm sure they
> >>> could manage more.
>
> >> Like the well pump in another post put it at the water level so it's
> >> pushing the water not lifting it.
>
> >> I think you'll find you'll need a large (read expensive) solar panel,
> >> a pikey target... oh and the battery would be target as well.
>
> >> Another thought battery drill and a drill pump?
>
> > Http://www.sandtopia.com.au/shop/water%20well.JPG
>
> You know, I've *always* wanted to make a well... But as we're on solid
> clay here, I don't think I will! It gets hard as plaster about 2.5 foot
> down, having been down there searching for my water main last year...
I've bored some post holes in clay with a hand auger and it was like
drilling plasticine; very easy and the hole kept its shape. I think
you will find that the subsoil near the stream is gravel and sediment
from the days when it regularly flooded the nearby meadows.
There's stuff on the net about making a well casing from plastic pipe
with slots cut with a rotary saw blade on a Dremel type thing.
Tim Watts
I see your point. But the logistics of electrickery are easier. Pump in
water, wire in flexiconduit tied to hose back to tank, and solar panel
or windmill there where it's easy to secure and maintain it. Otherwise
we'd have to have the windmill over the stream and I don't think the EA
will like us obstructing the stream (2' wide at best) by bashing posts
into it ;->
Tim Watts
I'm not entirely sure of this one. I'm not even sure it's a natural
steam or whether it's basically a man made drainage ditch that happens
to run water all year (many don't round here, but a few do).
If it floods, the watering problems are solved as the allotments are on
the meadow that is part of the controlled flood plain! The local berm is
a small one. That could fail, but the meadow is contained by much bigger
>2m berms to protect the houses over the road.
> There's stuff on the net about making a well casing from plastic pipe
> with slots cut with a rotary saw blade on a Dremel type thing.
Andy Dingley
wrote:
> Despite my suggestion about a generator and an electric pump, I would have
> thought that if you were putting up any kind of windmill then you would
> couple it directly to a pump?
It's easier to get electricity down a windmill tower than a mechanical
drive.
Dave Liquorice
> It's easier to get electricity down a windmill tower than a mechanical
> drive.
Eh? Whats hard about vertical shaft? Crank at the top end to make the
shaft go up and down by the stroke of the pump. Pivot at the top of
the pump shaft or you could just let the shaft flex...
--
Cheers
Dave.
Harry Bloomfield
> Despite my suggestion about a generator and an electric pump, I would have
> thought that if you were putting up any kind of windmill then you would
> couple it directly to a pump?
Windmill centre shaft, with a crank on the back of it, crank operating
a rod to a crude piston in a cylinder (pipe) drawing water into the
cylinder via a valve. Let it run all the time filling a large tank and
an overflow back to the stream - simples.
Doctor Drivel
"geoff" <tr...@uk-diy.org> wrote in message
news:Kf9CpOPd...@demon.co.uk...
Fantastic Maxie! Fantastic! Only you can do that.
Jules Richardson
Yep. You can buy them in my local farm supply place, too. Stand about 12'
tall, and they're not very expensive. Fine for use if you're just pumping
water into a holding tank.
cheers
Jules
Dave Liquorice
>> My thinking is that the lift pipe will never stay full of water
and
>> trying to lift a 2m column of water with air just ain't going to
work
>> particulary well.
>
> maybe - but my imagining of the OP scenario is the 2m figure is the
> height of the flood control berm between allotments and stream - i.e.
> I'm assuming the allotments and stream are at very similar levels
> (hence the need for siting flood defences) - so I imagine the pipe
> would be "_n_" shaped.. rather than a 2m vertical.
You still have to lift it over the top of the n, though once primed
it would stay primed, except:
> If the pipe had a valve just before the pump then I can't see how it
> could empty itself overnight say ..
If the water supply level fell below the end of the pipe that half of
the n would empty. Put the valve at the supply end, the weight of
water should keep it shut, and hopefully it wouldn't leak enough
(this is "dirty" water remember) to allow air in and the water out.
> Could it anyway due to the siphon effect of the "_n_" shape?
It would mitigate the pipe emptying, assuming neither end had access
to air but your exit point is then at ground level again not overly
convenient for putting into butts or filling cans.
--
Cheers
Dave.
JimK
wrote:
> On Mon, 17 May 2010 05:44:40 -0700 (PDT), JimK wrote:
> >> My thinking is that the lift pipe will never stay full of water
> and
> >> trying to lift a 2m column of water with air just ain't going to
> work
> >> particulary well.
>
> > maybe - but my imagining of the OP scenario is the 2m figure is the
> > height of the flood control berm between allotments and stream - i.e.
> > I'm assuming the allotments and stream are at very similar levels
> > (hence the need for siting flood defences) - so I imagine the pipe
> > would be "_n_" shaped.. rather than a 2m vertical.
>
> You still have to lift it over the top of the n, though once primed
> it would stay primed, except:
>
> > If the pipe had a valve just before the pump then I can't see how it
> > could empty itself overnight say ..
>
> If the water supply level fell below the end of the pipe that half of
> the n would empty. Put the valve at the supply end, the weight of
> water should keep it shut, and hopefully it wouldn't leak enough
> (this is "dirty" water remember) to allow air in and the water out.
do you mean a non-return valve?
I was initially thinking of a shut off valve near the pump to guard
against air leakage past sub-optimal cast iron pump seals ...
If the inlet side were sorted "properly" (maybe anchored to a lowered
area of stream bed) then I was imagining the end of the supply pipe
wouldn't normally be exposed to allow any air in nor water out so
would remain full..... unless there's a drought - then there'd be no
water to pump anyway.
Could we guarantee that users would check levels in the stream before
pumping? despite all the valves the pipe could end up pumped dry and
then need priming again....
> > Could it anyway due to the siphon effect of the "_n_" shape?
>
> It would mitigate the pipe emptying, assuming neither end had access
> to air
I guess that unless *both* ends were leaky/open you'd always have *at
least* 1/2 an _n_ full
> but your exit point is then at ground level again not overly
> convenient for putting into butts or filling cans.
I was reffering to the siphon in the pump pipework not just "a
siphon"...
For *on demand* hand pumping the OP mentioned buckets...
See my later post for the submerged IBC "true siphon" thought.
Cheers
JimK