Soundproofing - what's really possible?
Ben
my wife and I are thinking of buying a 1970s semi-detached house. We
are a bit concerned about noise from the neighbouring house; as far as
I can tell they're not noisy neighbours, but we did find that standing
in the front room, we could hear them talking next door.
I'm wondering to what extent it's really possible to soundproof a semi-
detached house. I don't want to eliminate all noise completely, but
I'd rather not be able to hear the TV or conversations from next door.
I'm not so worried about occasional noises like slamming doors.
We're willing to spend quite a lot of money, if necessary, but would
prefer not to lose too much space (although we recognise we'll
probably have to lose a few inches of space in the rooms that are
being soundproofed - about 20ft of wall on each of two floors, I
guess).
I've read lots of discussion from the archives of this newsgroup and
have looked at some sites that offer soundproofing services, but I've
not been able to draw any real conclusions about what's really
possible. Will solutions that involve putting up an additional wall of
about 60mm thickness (which seems to be the standard thing offered by
the sites I've looked at) really make a big difference? I found one
really useful posting that said that a loud TV might be 90db, a normal
party wall might cut out 45db and sound below 20db is inaudible,
meaning you'd need to cut an additional 25db. Does that sound right?
Is cutting 25db feasible?
Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer any advice. Also, if anyone
has had experience of soundproofing a semi, I'd love to hear how you
got on, and how successful you'd say it was.
Ben
sm_jamieson
> On 10 Apr,
> Ben <cop...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer any advice. Also, if anyone
> > has had experience of soundproofing a semi, I'd love to hear how you
> > got on, and how successful you'd say it was.
>
>
> 60s/early70s were probably the worst for soundproofing, single skin block
> walls. Standards have improved since, but an extra 25dB is a lot to achieve
> without building a solid brick separate wall isolated from the existing
> structure.
>
> --
> B Thumbs
> Change lycos to yahoo to reply
My house is halls-together 1930s. 9" brick walls. You can hear loud
talking next door in the hall, but of course, the living rooms are
fine. Also, no worries about disturbing the neighbours.
In the bathroom (on a party wall), I went paranoid, and built an inch-
thick glass-fibre-reinforced concrete wall isolated from the party
wall (!).
A friend of a friend build a complete new skin to create a cavity wall
in a semi. Moved the joists out of the party wall and everything. I
expect it was very affective. A lot of rigid mass is required to block
the sound effectively.
Simon.
sm_jamieson
"effective" of course - it didn't bring the neighours out in a burst
of pomposity.
Simon.
George (dicegeorge)
having removed some plaster
i have discovered that,
though the dividing wall between the neighbours is double brick,
where the joists for the upstairs floor go through it
there are gaps with no bricks in them
so sound has been going up through my ceiling,
through the gaps,
and down through their ceiling,
i dont know what they are having for breakfast!
so i suggest before adding sound insulation check for gaps-
perhaps moving a stethoscope or glass tumbler and ear
around your wall may find any such weak spots!
[g]
d...@gglz.com
Building control regulations/guidance on sound insulation:
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/professionals/en/4000000000263.html
Lots of pragmatic advice.
But I'd go with one of the other replies here - buy a different house.
sm_jamieson
wrote:
When I was lifting the upstairs floor and fiddling around I left the
floor up for a couple of days. Shortly I realised I did in fact know
what the neighbour was having for breakfast, all meals in fact (smell,
not sight). Filled around joists in party wall with expanding foam and
problem solved. I did have visions of her coming back to her fried egg
and finding a pan full of yellow foam !
Simon.
John
"R D S" <rsa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6668cnF...@mid.individual.net...
>
> You can get it as quiet as you like with the current neighbours, but
> unless
> you can guarrantee that they won't move out and the worlds worst chavscum
> move in (like in our case*) then you can never be sure of peace.
>
> *I suppose it could be worse, they haven't kicked or stabbed me to death
> yet.
>
>
We used to hear next door most when they were downstairs and we were
upstairs - and vice versa. I guess the space between the ceiling and floor
was the main problem.
John
> On 10 Apr, 10:47, <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> On 10 Apr,
>> Ben <cop...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer any advice. Also, if
>>> anyone has had experience of soundproofing a semi, I'd love to hear
>>> how you got on, and how successful you'd say it was.
>>
>> We were in a 60s semi. We moved to a detached. The only way to
>> soundproof.
>>
>> 60s/early70s were probably the worst for soundproofing, single skin
>> block walls. Standards have improved since, but an extra 25dB is a
>> lot to achieve without building a solid brick separate wall isolated
>> from the existing structure.
>>
>> --
>> B Thumbs
>> Change lycos to yahoo to reply
>
> My house is halls-together 1930s. 9" brick walls. You can hear loud
> talking next door in the hall, but of course, the living rooms are
> fine. Also, no worries about disturbing the neighbours.
> In the bathroom (on a party wall), I went paranoid, and built an inch-
> thick glass-fibre-reinforced concrete wall isolated from the party
> wall (!).
Why on earth did you do all that to soundproof a *bathroom* wall? Surely
you're not going to spend much time in there, are you? Or are your farts
super-duper scarily loud? :o)
John
John
Go for a 1930's semi. Anything from 60's onwards is a nightmare for sound
pollution.
John
Andrew Gabriel
"John" <Who90...@ntlworld.com> writes:
> We used to hear next door most when they were downstairs and we were
> upstairs - and vice versa. I guess the space between the ceiling and floor
> was the main problem.
There's a wonderful quote which I can't now find, but I'll have
a go at repeating from memory, probably not very accurately...
A council housing officer (Glasgow?), in comparing modern housing
with victorian housing said...
"In a victorian house, you couldn't even hear a baby being born next door,
whereas in a modern house, you can hear it being conceived."
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
sm_jamieson
No but my neighbour's (in similar previous house) were ! And as for
his elephantine nose-blowing !
And when you are in the bath you are very close to the wall, which
magnifies the problem :0)
Simon.
Doctor Drivel
"George (dicegeorge)" <diceg...@xxxhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ftkpja$1sl7$1...@energise.enta.net...
> Re: Soundproofing - what's really possible?
>
>
> having removed some plaster
> i have discovered that,
> though the dividing wall between the neighbours is double brick,
> where the joists for the upstairs floor go through it
> there are gaps with no bricks in them
> so sound has been going up through my ceiling,
> through the gaps,
> and down through their ceiling,
Use spray in foam in the gaps. Where joists penetrate walls there is always
an acoustic bridge.
> i dont know what they are having for breakfast!
What does that mean?
Doctor Drivel
"Andrew Gabriel" <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:47fdfc9b$0$756$5a6a...@news.aaisp.net.uk...
> In article <bJmLj.1994$B83....@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net>,
> "John" <Who90...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>> We used to hear next door most when they were downstairs and we were
>> upstairs - and vice versa. I guess the space between the ceiling and
>> floor
>> was the main problem.
>
> There's a wonderful quote which I can't now find, but I'll have
> a go at repeating from memory, probably not very accurately...
>
> A council housing officer (Glasgow?), in comparing modern housing
> with victorian housing said...
>
> "In a victorian house, you couldn't even hear a baby being born next door,
> whereas in a modern house, you can hear it being conceived."
That was referring to "Pugging", filling the floors with sand or ash.
Pufter
I solved this problem in my 60's semi by building a timber
frame/plasterboard lined walls in front of the party wall in each room.
I have lost about 3/4 inches, but was well worth it. Now
plastered/decorated, etc, you would never know. It can work as long as
you pay attention to detail, eg. ensure you don't directly connect any
part of the timer frame to the floor/ceiling joists (I used rubber
packing, plus removed the floorboards/ceiling to minimise touch-points
- re noise transmission). Also, it should not touch the party wall at
any point. Filled the void with dense glassfibre based insulation slabs
bought on the internet (do not go to Wickes/B&Q - not dense enough) &
then lined the whole lot with a blanket of floor felt (comes in blue on
a big roll from B&Q). Over that, I nailed 2 sheets of 12.5mm
plasterboard, plus used PVA to bond the second layer to the first. The
felt isolates the plasterboard from the timber, is extra sound
proofing, & the glue bonds the boards to maximise mass. Now I know for
a fact my neighbours have one of them big home cinema set-ups, plus a
large LCD TV mounted direct on the party wall in their kids bedroom,
but I don't hear a thing.
--
Pufter
Doctor Drivel
"Pufter" <Pufter....@diybanter.com> wrote in message
news:Pufter....@diybanter.com...
>
> I solved this problem in my 60's semi by building a timber
> frame/plasterboard lined walls in front of the party wall in each room.
> I have lost about 3/4 inches, but was well worth it.
3/4"? The double plaster board would come to that at least, then the studs
to hold it.
> Now
> plastered/decorated, etc, you would never know. It can work as long as
> you pay attention to detail, eg. ensure you don't directly connect any
> part of the timer frame to the floor/ceiling joists (I used rubber
> packing, plus removed the floorboards/ceiling to minimise touch-points
> - re noise transmission). Also, it should not touch the party wall at
> any point. Filled the void with dense glassfibre based insulation slabs
> bought on the internet (do not go to Wickes/B&Q - not dense enough) &
> then lined the whole lot with a blanket of floor felt (comes in blue on
> a big roll from B&Q).
Did this touch the party wall?
> Over that, I nailed 2 sheets of 12.5mm
> plasterboard, plus used PVA to bond the second layer to the first. The
> felt isolates the plasterboard from the timber, is extra sound
> proofing, & the glue bonds the boards to maximise mass. Now I know for
> a fact my neighbours have one of them big home cinema set-ups, plus a
> large LCD TV mounted direct on the party wall in their kids bedroom,
> but I don't hear a thing.
Fermacell pre-finished boards have a make up like MDF. Lots of mass. Mass
stops sound. These alone can stop sound quite well, dense rockwool would
help (not glass)
http://www.fermacell.co.uk/
Doing what you did and preventing ceiling and floor boards touching the
party wall is essential. The rubber around the frame helps reducing
flanking sounds.
Fermacell is so rigid doubling it up, using small bolts, would be a strong
enough partition in itself, and no frame needed. And no plasterer needed.
sm_jamieson
Could you let us know the size of the gap and studs ?
If used 2x3 studs + 1" gap + 1" plasterboard, that would be 5 inches.
Simon.
Dave Plowman (News)
George \(dicegeorge\) <diceg...@xxxhotmail.com> wrote:
> though the dividing wall between the neighbours is double brick,
> where the joists for the upstairs floor go through it
> there are gaps with no bricks in them
The joists run side to side? I'd say that is a serious hazard in event of
a fire.
--
*Bigamy is having one wife too many - monogamy is the same
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
sm_jamieson
> In article <ftkpja$1sl...@energise.enta.net>,
> George \(dicegeorge\) <dicegeo...@xxxhotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > though the dividing wall between the neighbours is double brick,
> > where the joists for the upstairs floor go through it
> > there are gaps with no bricks in them
>
> The joists run side to side? I'd say that is a serious hazard in event of
> a fire.
>
> --
> *Bigamy is having one wife too many - monogamy is the same
>
> To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Quite usual in my experience. Downstairs usually front to back,
upstairs side to side. But joists should be offset on both sides so
there is always some brick between.
Simon.
Dave Plowman (News)
<8bfad7f8-a27d-4371...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
sm_jamieson <sm_ja...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 10 Apr, 22:56, "Dave Plowman (News)" <d...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <ftkpja$1sl...@energise.enta.net>,
> > George \(dicegeorge\) <dicegeo...@xxxhotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > though the dividing wall between the neighbours is double brick,
> > > where the joists for the upstairs floor go through it
> > > there are gaps with no bricks in them
> >
> > The joists run side to side? I'd say that is a serious hazard in event
> > of a fire.
> Quite usual in my experience. Downstairs usually front to back,
> upstairs side to side. But joists should be offset on both sides so
> there is always some brick between.
Ah - right. In which case it should not let noise straight through. But
most of the houses I've worked on have all joists front to back. I suspect
it may be a London thing.
--
*Why is "abbreviated" such a long word?
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
George (dicegeorge)
>> > of a fire.
--
yes, its a big old house
which was converted into flats in the 60s
with much bodging,
yes the fire risks are scaring me more than the sound leakage,
theres flammable foam and polystyrene in the attic for insulation etc etc,
soundproofing / heat insulation / fire breaks are similar things
-----------