How much current flows through pylons?

[James Wilkinson Sword]

Despite extensive googling, there seems to be nothing that tells me how much current flows along wires on a national grid pylon. They only list voltages. Anybody know?

[Brian-Gaff]

Well it depends on the load one supposes. It also then depends on the
voltage on thewwires as the whole idea of using high voltages is to reduce
losses due to disipation when the system is under load.
The answer basically is there is no answer.
Might find more if you asked the max current of the one at xx to yy.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
Remember, if you don't like where I post
or what I say, you don't have to
read my posts! :-)
"James Wilkinson Sword" <imv...@somewear.com> wrote in message
news:op.yw9rz...@red.lan...

[spuorg...@gowanhill.com]

A 400 kV National Grid circuit may carry 1 kA in each of its three phases, thus transmitting a power of 700 MW.
A 132 kV distribution circuit may carry 300 A in each of its three phases, thus transmitting a power of 70 MW.
An 11 kV distribution circuit may carry 150 A in each of its three phases, thus transmitting a power of 3 MW.
A 400 V final distribution circuit may carry 200 A in each of its three phases, thus transmitting a power of 150 kW.

(Remember, these voltages are phase-to-phase voltages, the phase-to-earth voltages are 1.73 times lower. Thus (400 kV/1.73) x 1kA x 3 = 700 MW.)

http://www.emfs.info/what/terminology/ (site maintained by National Grid)

[Pylon type] L12 is effectively the L6 replacement will take twin conductors up to 850mm2, but all aluminium conductor rather than the heavier steel cored kind formerly used.

http://www.gorge.org/pylons/structure.shtml

Owain

[newshound]

And Supergrid pylons (400 and 275 kV) are normally double circuit,
aren't they? Three wires on each side of the "tree".

[NY]

"newshound" <news...@stevejqr.plus.com> wrote in message
news:78idnbbcI6BrhVDF...@brightview.co.uk...

> On 3/18/2017 11:18 AM, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote wrote:
>> Despite extensive googling, there seems to be nothing that tells me how
>> much
>> current flows along wires on a national grid pylon. They only list
>> voltages.
>> Anybody know?
>
> A 400 kV National Grid circuit may carry 1 kA in each of its three phases,
> thus transmitting a power of 700 MW.
> A 132 kV distribution circuit may carry 300 A in each of its three phases,
> thus transmitting a power of 70 MW.
> An 11 kV distribution circuit may carry 150 A in each of its three phases,
> thus transmitting a power of 3 MW.
> A 400 V final distribution circuit may carry 200 A in each of its three
> phases, thus transmitting a power of 150 kW.

200A per phase at 400V (240V phase-to-neutral) doesn't sound very high. We
have a 60 A "company fuse" and I presume our neighbours do too. With an
electric fire (3 KW), an electric shower (maybe 8 kW) and an electric oven
and hob (maybe 6 KW), you'd be getting towards that limit but still
remaining legal. Now imagine lots of people roundabout doing that. It
doesn't take many houses to run up 200 A - or a total of 600 A across all
three phases. How many houses are typically fed from a single feed from the
substation or 11 kV-to-400V pole-mounted transformer? What is the average
current that is assumed per house when sizing up the number of houses that
can be fed from one substation circuit? I presume it not the full 60A of the
company fuse rating.

> And Supergrid pylons (400 and 275 kV) are normally double circuit, aren't
> they? Three wires on each side of the "tree".

How much of the route from the power station to the consumer is redundant
multi-circuit? At one point, typically, does it change over to a given house
only being fed by one set of wires, and if that line develops a fault there
is no backup circuit?

Is there a backup route as far as the final substation that transforms to 11
kV or 400V, or is it higher up the chain?

I presume for maximum redundancy they try to use feeds from different places
rather than two sets of wires carried on the same pylons, in case an
accident takes out *all* the wires (both circuits).

I'm intrigued at the way house gets its electricity supply. There is
overhead mains on wooden poles (originally four separate wires, now a single
fat cable with four wires) and our house is the middle house of two adjacent
blocks of three houses. There is a single feed from the wooden poles to the
end of one block, and then four wires running along the back of one block,
overhead across the gap to the next block and along there, with each house
taking its feed from neutral and one of the three phases - I think no two
adjacent houses are on the same phase. I suppose this is less unsightly than
every one of the six houses having its own single-phase feed from the street
poles.

[Andrew Mawson]

"NY" wrote in message
news:48-dnecPqMX2v1DF...@brightview.co.uk...

<SNIP>

>
>How much of the route from the power station to the consumer is redundant
>multi-circuit? At one point, typically, does it change over to a given
>house only being fed by one set of wires, and if that line develops a fault
>there is no backup circuit?
>
>Is there a backup route as far as the final substation that transforms to
>11 kV or 400V, or is it higher up the chain?
>
>I presume for maximum redundancy they try to use feeds from different
>places rather than two sets of wires carried on the same pylons, in case an
>accident takes out *all* the wires (both circuits).
>
>I'm intrigued at the way house gets its electricity supply. There is
>overhead mains on wooden poles (originally four separate wires, now a
>single fat cable with four wires) and our house is the middle house of two
>adjacent blocks of three houses. There is a single feed from the wooden
>poles to the end of one block, and then four wires running along the back
>of one block, overhead across the gap to the next block and along there,
>with each house taking its feed from neutral and one of the three phases -
>I think no two adjacent houses are on the same phase. I suppose this is
>less unsightly than every one of the six houses having its own single-phase
>feed from the street poles.
>
>
>

They always used to rotate phases down a street, so (say) phase 1 -> house
1, phase 2 -> house 2, phase 3 -> house 3, then phase 1 -> street lighting,
phase 2 -> house 4 and so on down the road to balance the load between
phases.

We have the 11 kV to 415 v transformer on our land and are the first 'drop'
of single phase at the farmhouse, but also take the three phase into the
barn at 160 amps per phase. No street lighting though round here. The 11 kV
can be fed from two points - we have an overhead HV line and an underground
HV cable, but normally only one is active.

Andrew

[Harry Bloomfield]

Andrew Mawson was thinking very hard :

> They always used to rotate phases down a street, so (say) phase 1 -> house 1,
> phase 2 -> house 2, phase 3 -> house 3, then phase 1 -> street lighting,
> phase 2 -> house 4 and so on down the road to balance the load between
> phases.

So as to as best they can, balance the load on all three phases, so as
little current as possible appears on the neutral line.

[Harry Bloomfield]

spuorg...@gowanhill.com submitted this idea :

> A 400 kV National Grid circuit may carry 1 kA in each of its three phases,
> thus transmitting a power of 700 MW.
> A 132 kV distribution circuit may carry 300 A in each of its three phases,
> thus transmitting a power of 70 MW.
> An 11 kV distribution circuit may carry 150 A in each of its three phases,
> thus transmitting a power of 3 MW.
> A 400 V final distribution circuit may carry 200 A in each of its three
> phases, thus transmitting a power of 150 kW.
>
> (Remember, these voltages are phase-to-phase voltages, the phase-to-earth
> voltages are 1.73 times lower. Thus (400 kV/1.73) x 1kA x 3 = 700 MW.)

Also remember it is a grid. Those are likely maximums and the actual
current flow can be in either direction, depending upon where there is
demand and what generating stations are online.

[ARW]

Yep, and it's not uncommon to see that in multiples of houses. So you
may have 4 houses next to each other on phase one, the next 4 on phase 2
etc.

A far more common variant (on properties built in the late 1960's and
early 1970's) is house 1 and 2 on phase 1, house 3 and 4 on phase 2 and
house 5 and 6 on phase 3.




--
Adam

[Alan]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 12:05:12 +0000, NY wrote:

> 200A per phase at 400V (240V phase-to-neutral) doesn't sound very high.
> We have a 60 A "company fuse" and I presume our neighbours do too. With
> an electric fire (3 KW), an electric shower (maybe 8 kW) and an electric
> oven and hob (maybe 6 KW), you'd be getting towards that limit but still
> remaining legal. Now imagine lots of people roundabout doing that.

It's called Diversity. The DNO's know that everything will not be plugged
in at the same time, so their network will cope for the vast majority of
the time (and time has proven this, as there are very few blackouts
caused due to DNO substation fusing blowing).Short term overloads dont
stress the system too much, as can be seen on christmas day - when 50% of
houses have their ovens on etc - but 50% of them are gas,then the oven is
not on full power apart from the first 5 minutes, so the load isnt as
much as you think
I was told the typical demand for each house when the network is designed
is around 5 to 10 amps.That'd give 120 houses to one substation feed at 5
amps - that seems about right.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 18/03/17 12:05, NY wrote:
> 200A per phase at 400V (240V phase-to-neutral) doesn't sound very high.
> We have a 60 A "company fuse" and I presume our neighbours do too. With
> an electric fire (3 KW), an electric shower (maybe 8 kW) and an electric
> oven and hob (maybe 6 KW), you'd be getting towards that limit but still
> remaining legal. Now imagine lots of people roundabout doing that. It
> doesn't take many houses to run up 200 A - or a total of 600 A across
> all three phases. How many houses are typically fed from a single feed
> from the substation or 11 kV-to-400V pole-mounted transformer? What is
> the average current that is assumed per house when sizing up the number
> of houses that can be fed from one substation circuit? I presume it not
> the full 60A of the company fuse rating.

Course not. Average power per household is 1-2KW.

>
>> And Supergrid pylons (400 and 275 kV) are normally double circuit,
>> aren't they? Three wires on each side of the "tree".
>
> How much of the route from the power station to the consumer is
> redundant multi-circuit? At one point, typically, does it change over to
> a given house only being fed by one set of wires, and if that line
> develops a fault there is no backup circuit?
>

Typically 11KV is run as a ring - it is here anyway, so the only single
point of failure is the 240V stuff from the local substation.

> Is there a backup route as far as the final substation that transforms
> to 11 kV or 400V, or is it higher up the chain?
>
> I presume for maximum redundancy they try to use feeds from different
> places rather than two sets of wires carried on the same pylons, in case
> an accident takes out *all* the wires (both circuits).
>

As I said, round here 11KV is a ring.

> I'm intrigued at the way house gets its electricity supply. There is
> overhead mains on wooden poles (originally four separate wires, now a
> single fat cable with four wires) and our house is the middle house of
> two adjacent blocks of three houses. There is a single feed from the
> wooden poles to the end of one block, and then four wires running along
> the back of one block, overhead across the gap to the next block and
> along there, with each house taking its feed from neutral and one of the
> three phases - I think no two adjacent houses are on the same phase. I
> suppose this is less unsightly than every one of the six houses having
> its own single-phase feed from the street poles.
>
>
>

--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

[Brian Gaff]

The actual answer of course is none it goes through the wires, but that
would be being pedantic.
Of course if like me you stood near a pylon when it was struck by
lightening you would see how well built they are!
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please!

"James Wilkinson Sword" <imv...@somewear.com> wrote in message
news:op.yw9rz...@red.lan...

[NY]

"Brian Gaff" <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:oalm25$rgf$1...@news.albasani.net...

> The actual answer of course is none it goes through the wires, but that
> would be being pedantic.
> Of course if like me you stood near a pylon when it was struck by
> lightening you would see how well built they are!

I've never been near a pylon when it's been struck by lightning (*). I
wonder if it was the pylon itself or one of the phase wires that was struck.
I bet the bang is pretty impressive. The closest I've come was when a pylon
(maybe 66 or 132 kV) about 300 yards away was struck - there was a
ground-shaking bang and a very bright flash out of the window - much
brighter than normal lightning - and the power went off for a couple of
seconds and then came back on again as the circuit-breakers somewhere
upstream tried restoring power. I couldn't see any sign of blackened pylon
arm, so it may have been a strike on one of the phase wires.

Luckily I'd unplugged my PC a few moments before, as I noticed the storm
approaching - distant thunder got louder and the flash-to-bang time reduced
to a couple of seconds - so I escaped any damage.

Another storm, I wasn't quite so lucky: a minor flicker in the lights from a
fairly distant storm took out the power supply of my PC. As luck would have
it, I had a spare PSU on my desk which I keep in case any of my customers
have a faulty PSU, so I was able to swap it over. I'm quite proud of myself:
I have a weather station which updates its data in the log files every ten
minutes. The PC went down just after one reading and I had the PC back up
again, having swapped over the PSU, together with leads to each disk drive,
the CD drive, and the three leads to the motherboard, in time (just - it was
close!) for the next reading 10 minutes later. And probably about 2 minutes
of the time was taken up with the interminable time it takes my PC to boot
up and for the weather-station app to start reading data again.


(*) I have not-so-fond memories of cross-country running at school on a
route that took us under pylons. It was a really obnoxious route. You had to
endure the taunts of the local kids from other schools on the estate, then
run along a muddy, puddly unmade road, past the factory where they boiled up
animal carcases to make glue (trying not to puke at the smell), under the
fizzing pylon wires which often glowed a pretty mauve on a foggy day and
made your hair stand on end, and then try not to get savaged by the alsatian
guard dogs from the car breakers yard - and all of that was within about 1/4
mile. After that it got easier! https://goo.gl/maps/p1PNHJWtECk shows the
rusty girders which are all the remain of the glue factory, then the pylon
and then (to the left of where the car is parked) the place where the car
dump used to be. It all looks a lot less grotty than I remember it in the
mid 70s.

[NY]

"The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:oalh0s$5mp$1...@news.albasani.net...

>> How much of the route from the power station to the consumer is
>> redundant multi-circuit? At one point, typically, does it change over to
>> a given house only being fed by one set of wires, and if that line
>> develops a fault there is no backup circuit?
>>
> Typically 11KV is run as a ring - it is here anyway, so the only single
> point of failure is the 240V stuff from the local substation.

Out here in a North Yorkshire village there seem to be 11 kV spurs, each
with a pole-mounted transformer to step down to 240V. Where I'm sitting I
can see the end of the 11 kV line and its transformer. Its 240V cables go
underground to houses on one side of the road (probably built in 1950s) and
then come above ground to 3-phase 240V overhead wires to the houses on the
other side of the road (1930s).

[Harry Bloomfield]

NY has brought this to us :

> Out here in a North Yorkshire village there seem to be 11 kV spurs, each
> with a pole-mounted transformer to step down to 240V. Where I'm sitting I
> can see the end of the 11 kV line and its transformer. Its 240V cables go
> underground to houses on one side of the road (probably built in 1950s) and
> then come above ground to 3-phase 240V overhead wires to the houses on the
> other side of the road (1930s).

Are you sure it is 11Kv - more likely it will be 3.3Kv.

[NY]

"Harry Bloomfield" <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:oam023$8u5$1...@dont-email.me...

Ah, I wasn't aware that there was an intermediate distribution voltage
between 11kV and 240V. Are most power lines on pairs of wooden poles with
big glass insulators and pole-mounted transformers 3.3 rather than 11 kV?

This is the pole https://s22.postimg.org/n6x2dkkip/IMG_0456.jpg

I hadn't spotted the four horizontal wires in the foreground. I was wrong:
the 240V evidently goes underground to the back of just one terrace block
and then 3 phases and neutral runs between the three terrace blocks, with
alternating phases - same as in our older terraces on the other side of the
road from the 3.3 kV.

[damdu...@yahoo.co.uk]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 14:13:01 -0000, "NY" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

>"Harry Bloomfield" <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:oam023$8u5$1...@dont-email.me...
>> NY has brought this to us :
>>> Out here in a North Yorkshire village there seem to be 11 kV spurs, each
>>> with a pole-mounted transformer to step down to 240V. Where I'm sitting I
>>> can see the end of the 11 kV line and its transformer. Its 240V cables go
>>> underground to houses on one side of the road (probably built in 1950s)
>>> and
>>> then come above ground to 3-phase 240V overhead wires to the houses on
>>> the
>>> other side of the road (1930s).
>>
>> Are you sure it is 11Kv - more likely it will be 3.3Kv.
>
>Ah, I wasn't aware that there was an intermediate distribution voltage
>between 11kV and 240V.

Wonder if H Bloomfield did a typo and meant 33Kv which is used
frequently . The supply to our farm was be 11Kv , where we are now is
also fed by 11Kv so to say it is more likely to be 33Kv or 11Kv would
need access to official records but also where you are gives a bit of
a clue, a few houses and a farm out in the sticks 11Kv but a more
densely populated area with some industry 33Kv.
There is some distribution done at a lower voltage usually in towns
and nowadays at 6.6Kv but some supplies that have been in place since
the 1920's or 30's may been slightly lower before things got
standardised.

G.Harman

[Harry Bloomfield]

NY has brought this to us :

> Ah, I wasn't aware that there was an intermediate distribution voltage
> between 11kV and 240V. Are most power lines on pairs of wooden poles with big
> glass insulators and pole-mounted transformers 3.3 rather than 11 kV?

On wooden poles, I would suggest yes..

[Rod Speed]

"NY" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:P-idnSnVScrLHFPF...@brightview.co.uk...

> "The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:oalh0s$5mp$1...@news.albasani.net...
>>> How much of the route from the power station to the consumer is
>>> redundant multi-circuit? At one point, typically, does it change over to
>>> a given house only being fed by one set of wires, and if that line
>>> develops a fault there is no backup circuit?
>>>
>> Typically 11KV is run as a ring - it is here anyway, so the only single
>> point of failure is the 240V stuff from the local substation.

> Out here in a North Yorkshire village there seem to be 11 kV spurs, each
> with a pole-mounted transformer to step down to 240V.

Ours that were done in the very early 70s are done like that.

> Where I'm sitting I can see the end of the 11 kV line and its transformer.
> Its 240V cables go underground to houses on one side of the road

The later subdivisions, what you lot call estates here have the 11KV
underground too, and the transformers stand on the ground, in big
metal cabinets about the size of a decent sized car, not quite as tall
as a van.

[Harry Bloomfield]

damdu...@yahoo.co.uk expressed precisely :

> Wonder if H Bloomfield did a typo and meant 33Kv which is used
> frequently .

No, I meant 3.3Kv or 3Kv3. So far as I am aware, all 11Kv and up is on
metal poles.

They can use what ever is the most cost effective/efficient for the
load and distance involved.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 15:20:19 +0000, damdu...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

>>> Are you sure it is 11Kv - more likely it will be 3.3Kv.
>>
>> Ah, I wasn't aware that there was an intermediate distribution
voltage
>> between 11kV and 240V.
>
> Wonder if H Bloomfield did a typo and meant 33Kv which is used
> frequently.

There are a few intermediate voltages but I don't think it's very
common and is probably only in places that have had a supply for
around a centuary...

Here the primary substation is fed by a 33 kV line and back up 11 kV
line.
I think the 33 kV orginates at Penrith, the 11 kV from the primary at
Little Selkeld. The 11 kV has a regulator in circuit a couple of
miles from the primary substation. Even with the regulator our
voltage wangs about all over the shop when the back up 11 kV is being
used. Rises to above 255 at night and drops to 225 ish during the
day. 240 to 245 is the normal range. It was complaining about the
over voltage that lead me to finding out the 11 kV was fed from
Little Selkeld, as they dropped a couple of hundred volts off it
there and things got better (only 253 overnight) but doing that
reduces everyone else fed from that line so it didn't stay like that.
Presumably the regulator is hitting an end stop at night...

From the primamry substation the 11 kV distribution is constructed as
a collection of half a dozen or so interconnected rings. These rings
are normally operated as spurs with an auto reclosure on each one
near the primary. Manual operated air swtches that are normally open
or normally closed enable any section of line to be isolated or fed
from either end. There are a number of spurs, some branched, that can
only be fed from one end. We are on the end of one that only feeds
us.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[damdu...@yahoo.co.uk]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 20:12:19 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
<harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

>damdu...@yahoo.co.uk expressed precisely :
>> Wonder if H Bloomfield did a typo and meant 33Kv which is used
>> frequently .
>
>No, I meant 3.3Kv or 3Kv3.

Well that is a voltage I don't remember seeing anywhere.I'm off down
the local in minute where a the missus gets gardening tips from a
bloke who is always winning growing competitions often calls in.,He is
also a retired Linesman for what was Southern Electric, I'll ask him
if he knew of it any area. It's possibly a std that hung over in a
particular area or two from prenationalisation days .

> So far as I am aware, all 11Kv and up is on
>metal poles.

I'm genuinely surprised that you think that.
http://norpower.co.uk/services/11-33kv-wood-poles
Been in use donkeys years,the 11Kv that crossed our land on wood poles
went in 1958 and a couple of miles away the small Substation had 33Kv
wood pole lines feeding it as do 1000's of others .Many wood poles
have been replaced in recent times with new wooden ones a little
taller in a rolling programme to raise the height of lines above
fields as farm machinery has got taller.


http://norpower.co.uk/services/132-kv-woodpoles
http://www.wilsonfearnall.co.uk/new-132kv-line-for-shropshire/
These are relatively recent development allowing wind farms easy
connection and network strengthening and it is understandable that
many will not be aware of them, the tall insulators in the trident
formation are the most obvious clue.

G.Harman

[The Natural Philosopher]

Never heard of 3.3kV - all the overheads here are 11KV apart from the
big one at 33kV.

Oh and the 240v stuff of course.


--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 19/03/17 14:13, NY wrote:
> "Harry Bloomfield" <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:oam023$8u5$1...@dont-email.me...
>> NY has brought this to us :
>>> Out here in a North Yorkshire village there seem to be 11 kV spurs, each
>>> with a pole-mounted transformer to step down to 240V. Where I'm
>>> sitting I
>>> can see the end of the 11 kV line and its transformer. Its 240V
>>> cables go
>>> underground to houses on one side of the road (probably built in
>>> 1950s) and
>>> then come above ground to 3-phase 240V overhead wires to the houses
>>> on the
>>> other side of the road (1930s).
>>
>> Are you sure it is 11Kv - more likely it will be 3.3Kv.
>
> Ah, I wasn't aware that there was an intermediate distribution voltage
> between 11kV and 240V.

There arent.

Are most power lines on pairs of wooden poles
> with big glass insulators and pole-mounted transformers 3.3 rather than
> 11 kV?
>

No.

> This is the pole https://s22.postimg.org/n6x2dkkip/IMG_0456.jpg
>
> I hadn't spotted the four horizontal wires in the foreground. I was
> wrong: the 240V evidently goes underground to the back of just one
> terrace block and then 3 phases and neutral runs between the three
> terrace blocks, with alternating phases - same as in our older terraces
> on the other side of the road from the 3.3 kV.

[The Natural Philosopher]

No.
33KV is wooden pole stuff as is 11KV and the odd 240V

132kV is where the lattice towers start

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 20:12:19 GMT, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

> No, I meant 3.3Kv or 3Kv3. So far as I am aware, all 11Kv and up is on
> metal poles.

All the 11 kV feed and distribution and the 33 kV feed is on wooden
poles around here.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 19/03/17 20:12, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
> damdu...@yahoo.co.uk expressed precisely :
>> Wonder if H Bloomfield did a typo and meant 33Kv which is used
>> frequently .
>
> No, I meant 3.3Kv or 3Kv3. So far as I am aware, all 11Kv and up is on
> metal poles.
>

Completely wrong

There is no 3.3kV

up to 33KV is on wooden poles

Next step up from 240V is 11KV 3 ph.

educate yourself

http://www.templar.co.uk/downloads/EEEN60301_introduction.pdf

> They can use what ever is the most cost effective/efficient for the load
> and distance involved.

[Harry Bloomfield]

It happens that The Natural Philosopher formulated :

> Completely wrong
>
> There is no 3.3kV

No sorry, you are wrong. I have used it many times on large motors.

[Rod Speed]

Harry Bloomfield <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote
> NY wrote

Ours were mostly on wooden poles when
they first went in and are definitely 11Kv.

The pole is irrelevant, it's the insulators that matter, trivial at 11KV.

We don't have any 3.3Kv distribution at all.

[S Viemeister]

They're wooden in my area, too.

[James Wilkinson Sword]

I wonder if anyone's ever borrowed their neighbour's electricity when theirs is off, only to find it coming back on and joined phase 1 and 2 together with a big bang?

--
If you feel tired, pull off at the motorway services -- Highway Code, UK.
How's that going to help?!?

[damdu...@yahoo.co.uk]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 20:56:45 +0000, damdu...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

>On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 20:12:19 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
><harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>damdu...@yahoo.co.uk expressed precisely :
>>> Wonder if H Bloomfield did a typo and meant 33Kv which is used
>>> frequently .
>>
>>No, I meant 3.3Kv or 3Kv3.
>Well that is a voltage I don't remember seeing anywhere.I'm off down
>the local in minute where a the missus gets gardening tips from a
>bloke who is always winning growing competitions often calls in.,He is
>also a retired Linesman for what was Southern Electric, I'll ask him
>if he knew of it any area.

Well I asked him and and he said that he never came across any 3.3Kv.
A reasonable amount of 6.6Kv on older installations in the Portsmouth
, Southampton and Bournemouth areas that dated back to when the power
stations belonged to the local authorities but under the electricity
board it was 33Kv and 11Kv as the distribution voltages.

G.Harman

[James Wilkinson Sword]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 07:19:45 -0000, wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 12:05:12 +0000, NY wrote:
>
>> 200A per phase at 400V (240V phase-to-neutral) doesn't sound very high.
>> We have a 60 A "company fuse" and I presume our neighbours do too. With
>> an electric fire (3 KW), an electric shower (maybe 8 kW) and an electric
>> oven and hob (maybe 6 KW), you'd be getting towards that limit but still
>> remaining legal. Now imagine lots of people roundabout doing that.
>
> It's called Diversity. The DNO's know that everything will not be plugged
> in at the same time, so their network will cope for the vast majority of
> the time (and time has proven this, as there are very few blackouts
> caused due to DNO substation fusing blowing).Short term overloads dont
> stress the system too much, as can be seen on christmas day - when 50% of
> houses have their ovens on etc - but 50% of them are gas,then the oven is
> not on full power apart from the first 5 minutes, so the load isnt as
> much as you think

All very well as long as there's a suitable fuse. But when diversity is used in case of say a double mains socket in your house only taking 20 amps, but the fuse protecting it is 30A, you get fires.

> I was told the typical demand for each house when the network is designed
> is around 5 to 10 amps.That'd give 120 houses to one substation feed at 5
> amps - that seems about right.

5A maximum I assume. If you use 5A on average, you'd get a very big electricity bill.

--
Two blondes living in Oklahoma were sitting on a bench talking, and one blonde says to the other, "Which do you think is farther away... Florida or the moon?"
The other blonde turns and says "Helloooooooooo, can you see Florida ?????"

[James Wilkinson Sword]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 08:54:52 -0000, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 18/03/17 12:05, NY wrote:
>> 200A per phase at 400V (240V phase-to-neutral) doesn't sound very high.
>> We have a 60 A "company fuse" and I presume our neighbours do too. With
>> an electric fire (3 KW), an electric shower (maybe 8 kW) and an electric
>> oven and hob (maybe 6 KW), you'd be getting towards that limit but still
>> remaining legal. Now imagine lots of people roundabout doing that. It
>> doesn't take many houses to run up 200 A - or a total of 600 A across
>> all three phases. How many houses are typically fed from a single feed
>> from the substation or 11 kV-to-400V pole-mounted transformer? What is
>> the average current that is assumed per house when sizing up the number
>> of houses that can be fed from one substation circuit? I presume it not
>> the full 60A of the company fuse rating.
>
> Course not. Average power per household is 1-2KW.

Continuously? That's way too much. Think what your bill would be.

--
When a woman wears leather clothing, a man's heart beats quicker, his throat gets dry, he goes weak in the knees, and he begins to think irrationally.
Ever wonder why?
She smells like a new truck!

[James Wilkinson Sword]

I thought nowadays everything went underground, yet a new lot of houses across the road from me have overhead telephone cables. Why is this?

--
Two cowboys are talking over a beer, discussing various sex positions.
The first cowboy says his favorite position is "the rodeo".
The other cowboy asks what the position is, and how to do it. The first cowboy says, "You tell your wife to get on the bed on all fours and then do it doggy style. Once things start to get under way and she's really enjoying it, lean forward, grab her by her hair and whisper in her ear, 'Your sister likes this position too.' Then try to hang on for 8 seconds".

[James Wilkinson Sword]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 15:23:28 -0000, Tim Streater <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:

> In article <cr6tcc1ff8k189c8p...@4ax.com>,

> <damdu...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 14:13:01 -0000, "NY" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> "Harry Bloomfield" <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:oam023$8u5$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>> NY has brought this to us :
>>>>> Out here in a North Yorkshire village there seem to be 11 kV spurs, each
>>>>> with a pole-mounted transformer to step down to 240V. Where I'm sitting I
>>>>> can see the end of the 11 kV line and its transformer. Its 240V cables go
>>>>> underground to houses on one side of the road (probably built in 1950s)
>>>>> and then come above ground to 3-phase 240V overhead wires to the houses
>>>>> on the other side of the road (1930s).
>>>>
>>>> Are you sure it is 11Kv - more likely it will be 3.3Kv.
>>>
>>> Ah, I wasn't aware that there was an intermediate distribution voltage
>>> between 11kV and 240V.
>>
>> Wonder if H Bloomfield did a typo and meant 33Kv which is used
>> frequently.
>

> I wondered that too but don't know enough about power distribution.
>
> When I first saw this thread title, however, I assumed it was talking
> about how much leakage there was to earth from a pylon.

I thought it sounded a little ambiguous when I wrote it. Probably quite a bit, as if its raining, you can even feel it coming through the air.

--
A father is someone who carries pictures where his money used to be.

[James Wilkinson Sword]

Did you get anywhere with your complaint? I get 241V to 256V, which I consider very poor since 230V is supposed to be the normal. It's enough to regularly make my UPS put an overvoltage warning light on and step it down itself. When I phoned them, they sent someone out in 30 minutes and sounded worried on the phone, yet when the electrician arrived and confirmed my voltage readings, he said "within legal limits, nothing we can do, although if I was in charge I'd step it down a level".

--
Went to the pub with my girlfriend last night.
Locals were shouting "paedophile!" and other names at me, just because my girlfriend is 21 and I'm 50.
It completely spoilt our 10th anniversary.

[James Wilkinson Sword]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 19:26:27 -0000, Harry Bloomfield <harry...@nospam.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

> spuorg...@gowanhill.com submitted this idea :
>> A 400 kV National Grid circuit may carry 1 kA in each of its three phases,
>> thus transmitting a power of 700 MW.
>> A 132 kV distribution circuit may carry 300 A in each of its three phases,
>> thus transmitting a power of 70 MW.
>> An 11 kV distribution circuit may carry 150 A in each of its three phases,
>> thus transmitting a power of 3 MW.
>> A 400 V final distribution circuit may carry 200 A in each of its three
>> phases, thus transmitting a power of 150 kW.
>>
>> (Remember, these voltages are phase-to-phase voltages, the phase-to-earth
>> voltages are 1.73 times lower. Thus (400 kV/1.73) x 1kA x 3 = 700 MW.)
>
> Also remember it is a grid. Those are likely maximums and the actual
> current flow can be in either direction, depending upon where there is
> demand and what generating stations are online.

Yes, I was just wondering what the capacity was.

--
The squaw on the hippopotamus is equal to the sons of the squaws on the other two hides!

[Graham Nye]

Were they being supplied by on-site transformers or local generators?
The discussion is about the distribution network which seems to skip
3.3 kV and starts at 11 kV.



--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk

[James Wilkinson Sword]

I've seen a pylon with heavy snow on the wires. The phases got close enough to arc.


On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 10:20:52 -0000, Brian Gaff <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> The actual answer of course is none it goes through the wires, but that
> would be being pedantic.
> Of course if like me you stood near a pylon when it was struck by
> lightening you would see how well built they are!
> Brian
>


--
If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me? -- Monty Python, Episode 25

[bm]

"James Wilkinson Sword" <imv...@somewear.com> wrote in message
news:op.yxdfx...@red.lan...

Switch it off, and the net.

[bm]

"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ej8e6v...@mid.individual.net...

Ahhhhh, Wodney is here with all the answers.

[The Natural Philosopher]

..in the grid.


--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

[The Natural Philosopher]

3.3kV is used in some industrial kit. But its not a grid voltage.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Graham Nye submitted this idea :

> Were they being supplied by on-site transformers or local generators?
> The discussion is about the distribution network which seems to skip
> 3.3 kV and starts at 11 kV.

Either, both or even direct from the supply.

One series of 3.3Kv sets I installed in the 1970's was Ambergate PS,
but that had its own local sub stations, two ss as I recall.

[The Other Mike]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 04:18:04 -0700 (PDT), spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:

>On Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:07:59 UTC, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
>> Despite extensive googling, there seems to be nothing that tells me how much
>> current flows along wires on a national grid pylon. They only list voltages.
>> Anybody know?

>
>A 400 kV National Grid circuit may carry 1 kA in each of its three phases, thus transmitting a power of 700 MW.
>A 132 kV distribution circuit may carry 300 A in each of its three phases, thus transmitting a power of 70 MW.
>An 11 kV distribution circuit may carry 150 A in each of its three phases, thus transmitting a power of 3 MW.
>A 400 V final distribution circuit may carry 200 A in each of its three phases, thus transmitting a power of 150 kW.
>
>(Remember, these voltages are phase-to-phase voltages, the phase-to-earth voltages are 1.73 times lower. Thus (400 kV/1.73) x 1kA x 3 = 700 MW.)
>

>http://www.emfs.info/what/terminology/ (site maintained by National Grid)
>
>[Pylon type] L12 is effectively the L6 replacement will take twin conductors up to 850mm2, but all aluminium conductor rather than the heavier steel cored kind formerly used.
>
>http://www.gorge.org/pylons/structure.shtml

Someone is being slightly economical with the truth at the emfs.info site. There
are 400kV overhead circuits in the UK rated at around 3600MVA short term post
fault so that equates to around 5000A.

--

[The Other Mike]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 21:12:10 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 19/03/17 20:12, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
>> damdu...@yahoo.co.uk expressed precisely :
>>> Wonder if H Bloomfield did a typo and meant 33Kv which is used
>>> frequently .
>>
>> No, I meant 3.3Kv or 3Kv3. So far as I am aware, all 11Kv and up is on
>> metal poles.
>>
>Completely wrong
>
>There is no 3.3kV
>
>up to 33KV is on wooden poles
>
>Next step up from 240V is 11KV 3 ph.
>
>educate yourself
>
>http://www.templar.co.uk/downloads/EEEN60301_introduction.pdf
>
>> They can use what ever is the most cost effective/efficient for the load
>> and distance involved.

Not only is 3.3kV used in the UK, but 2kV, 3.5kV and 6.6kV are also used. In
some areas 66kV is also used alongside 33kV, the 66kV being run in some cases on
wooden poles.


https://library.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/library/en/g81/Design_and_Planning/Planning_and_Design/Documents/EDS+08-0109+11-6.6kV+Secondary+Distribution+Network+Design.pdf

5.6 Voltage Rationalisation

5.6.1 6.6kV Networks
Where 6.6kV assets are to be replaced, 11kV rated plant, switchgear and cables
shall be used. All new or replacement transformers used on the 6.6kV system
should be dual ratio. Every endeavour should be made to remove 6.6kV rated
assets as part of any major reinforcement scheme that either involves the assets
directly, or offers the potential to decommission them as part of an associated
scheme. Each case will ultimately be considered on its merits and the costs
involved will be subject to formal approval as part of the capital authorisation
procedure.
5.6.2 2kV/3.3kV and 3.5kV Networks
These networks shall not be extended. Where these assets are to be replaced the
use of LV or 11kV rated switchgear and cables shall be used. Every endeavour
should be made to remove 2-3.5kV rated assets as part of any reinforcement
scheme that either involves the assets directly, or offers the potential to
decommission them as part of an associated scheme. Each case will ultimately be
considered on its merits and the costs involved will be subject to formal
approval as part of the capital authorisation procedure.

--

[damdu...@yahoo.co.uk]

Map here of the distribution grid in that area as it is now with
colour codes for the various voltages etc.
https://www.westernpower.co.uk/docs/connections/Generation/Generation-capacity-map/Distributed-Generation-EHV-Constraint-Maps/East-Midlands-Thermal-Map.aspx

No mention of 3.3kV , what ever you worked on isn't in place any more
or wasn't part of the distribution network.
Have to say that as you were unaware that the vast majority of 11kV
and 33kV overhead lines in the UK are carried on wooden poles I'm not
how much credence we can put on your claim as indicated by "Are you
sure it is 11Kv - more likely it will be 3.3Kv." The general opinion
on here is that as far as distribution networks are concerned you are
wrong and even if there has been the odd bit of non std that only you
seem to know about it certainly isn't enough to justify your claim of
"more likely".

G.Harman

[The Other Mike]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:35:29 +0000, The Other Mike

>Not only is 3.3kV used in the UK, but 2kV, 3.5kV and 6.6kV are also used. In
>some areas 66kV is also used alongside 33kV, the 66kV being run in some cases on
>wooden poles.

Plus this, page 4

https://www.westernpower.co.uk/docs/About-us/Our-business/Our-network/Long-term-development/Long-term-development-statement-for-West-Midlands.aspx

WPD West Midlands also has extensive 66kV networks. These networks cover large
rural areas, including the north Cotswolds, Worcestershire, Herefordshire and
the Welsh Marches. Networks at this voltage provide economic and reliable rural
systems, permitting long feeding distances and being of robust construction.
However, some parts of the 66kV network are ageing and may require replacement
over the next 10 years. WPD would consider reinforcement at the 66kV voltage
level or conversion to 132/11kV transformation depending on the solution
offering the optimum technical and economic value.

--

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 20/03/17 09:35, The Other Mike wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 21:12:10 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
> <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 19/03/17 20:12, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
>>> damdu...@yahoo.co.uk expressed precisely :
>>>> Wonder if H Bloomfield did a typo and meant 33Kv which is used
>>>> frequently .
>>>
>>> No, I meant 3.3Kv or 3Kv3. So far as I am aware, all 11Kv and up is on
>>> metal poles.
>>>
>> Completely wrong
>>
>> There is no 3.3kV
>>
>> up to 33KV is on wooden poles
>>
>> Next step up from 240V is 11KV 3 ph.
>>
>> educate yourself
>>
>> http://www.templar.co.uk/downloads/EEEN60301_introduction.pdf
>>
>>> They can use what ever is the most cost effective/efficient for the load
>>> and distance involved.
>
> Not only is 3.3kV used in the UK, but 2kV, 3.5kV and 6.6kV are also used.

No. Were used. Once. Not any more.

In
> some areas 66kV is also used alongside 33kV, the 66kV being run in some cases on
> wooden poles.
>

Has been used. No longer

>
> https://library.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/library/en/g81/Design_and_Planning/Planning_and_Design/Documents/EDS+08-0109+11-6.6kV+Secondary+Distribution+Network+Design.pdf
>
> 5.6 Voltage Rationalisation
>
> 5.6.1 6.6kV Networks
> Where 6.6kV assets are to be replaced, 11kV rated plant, switchgear and cables
> shall be used. All new or replacement transformers used on the 6.6kV system
> should be dual ratio. Every endeavour should be made to remove 6.6kV rated
> assets as part of any major reinforcement scheme that either involves the assets
> directly, or offers the potential to decommission them as part of an associated
> scheme. Each case will ultimately be considered on its merits and the costs
> involved will be subject to formal approval as part of the capital authorisation
> procedure.
> 5.6.2 2kV/3.3kV and 3.5kV Networks
> These networks shall not be extended. Where these assets are to be replaced the
> use of LV or 11kV rated switchgear and cables shall be used. Every endeavour
> should be made to remove 2-3.5kV rated assets as part of any reinforcement
> scheme that either involves the assets directly, or offers the potential to
> decommission them as part of an associated scheme. Each case will ultimately be
> considered on its merits and the costs involved will be subject to formal
> approval as part of the capital authorisation procedure.
>


--

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

[The Other Mike]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 10:46:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:


>> Not only is 3.3kV used in the UK, but 2kV, 3.5kV and 6.6kV are also used.
>
>No. Were used. Once. Not any more.
>
>In
>> some areas 66kV is also used alongside 33kV, the 66kV being run in some cases on
>> wooden poles.
>>
>Has been used. No longer

Oh FFS you yet again show you really are a clueless wanker on this and many
other things you claim to be 'an expert' on, one thing for sure is you clearly
have zero experience in the field of power engineering.

I could walk a couple of hundred yards and take a photo of a sign on the front
of a 3.3kV/415v substation, but it's pissing it down and I simply cannot be
arsed and in any case you'd probably claim it had been photoshopped or was an
image from Victorian times. There is plenty of 66kV single circuit on wooden
poles and on pylons too.
--

[The Other Mike]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 13:14:25 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
<harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

>NY has brought this to us :
>> Out here in a North Yorkshire village there seem to be 11 kV spurs, each
>> with a pole-mounted transformer to step down to 240V. Where I'm sitting I
>> can see the end of the 11 kV line and its transformer. Its 240V cables go
>> underground to houses on one side of the road (probably built in 1950s) and
>> then come above ground to 3-phase 240V overhead wires to the houses on the
>> other side of the road (1930s).
>

>Are you sure it is 11Kv - more likely it will be 3.3Kv.

Underground can be 3.3kV but not to my knowledge as an overhead, the choices
there are 240v/415v 11kV 33kV 66kV and 132kV (for UK distribution networks)

Any other oddball voltages will be underground or as on site supplies. Power
stations for instance often have 11kV, 3.3kV and 415v switchboards, steel
rolling mills and chemical works have commonly been supplied at 275kV or 400kV
transformed down to various combinations of 33kV, 11kV, 6.6kV, 3.3kV and 415v
for use around the site.
--

[Harry Bloomfield]

The Natural Philosopher explained on 20/03/2017 :

>> Not only is 3.3kV used in the UK, but 2kV, 3.5kV and 6.6kV are also used.
>
> No. Were used. Once. Not any more.

Were used, suggests were installed. Once installed they are there until
replaced - which rather suggests I was correct in the matter of the
3.3Kv, though wrong in regards to what they installed on wooden poles.

[Harry Bloomfield]

on 20/03/2017, damdu...@yahoo.co.uk supposed :

> Map here of the distribution grid in that area as it is now with
> colour codes for the various voltages etc.
> https://www.westernpower.co.uk/docs/connections/Generation/Generation-capacity-map/Distributed-Generation-EHV-Constraint-Maps/East-Midlands-Thermal-Map.aspx
>
> No mention of 3.3kV , what ever you worked on isn't in place any more
> or wasn't part of the distribution network.

Who suggested it was part of the general distribution network?

Not in place? I very much doubt that, the project was a major and very
expensive project, a show project.

I said the site had (from memory) possibly two transformers on site, to
feed the site. The run from the transformers was a matter of maybe
20yds to feed into my panels, which then fed 6x 3.3Kw variable speed
motors. I very much doubt that would even be shown on such a small
scale area map covering an entire county.

[The Other Mike]

Harry you'd be better off arguing with a three week old dead badger, you'd get a
more coherent and accurate reply on subjects like this than from TNP. 3.3kV
has IME always been an underground voltage in the UK, with indoor switchgear.
--

[damdu...@yahoo.co.uk]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 13:33:23 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
<harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:


>> https://www.westernpower.co.uk/docs/connections/Generation/Generation-capacity-map/Distributed-Generation-EHV-Constraint-Maps/East-Midlands-Thermal-Map.aspx
>>
>> No mention of 3.3kV , what ever you worked on isn't in place any more
>> or wasn't part of the distribution network.
>
>Who suggested it was part of the general distribution network?

That particular project you worked may not have been but you cannot
get away from that you interjected on this post from NY

:
>> Out here in a North Yorkshire village there seem to be 11 kV spurs, each
>> with a pole-mounted transformer to step down to 240V. Where I'm sitting I
>> can see the end of the 11 kV line and its transformer. Its 240V cables go
>> underground to houses on one side of the road (probably built in 1950s)

with "Are you sure it is 11Kv - more likely it will be 3.3Kv."
So it looks very much like that you started your contribitions to
this thread by commenting on the distribution network and only later
invoked your experience of one particular project by suggesting it's
rare use of 3.3kV = more likely.

G.Harman

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 20/03/17 13:33, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
> on 20/03/2017, damdu...@yahoo.co.uk supposed :
>> Map here of the distribution grid in that area as it is now with
>> colour codes for the various voltages etc.
>> https://www.westernpower.co.uk/docs/connections/Generation/Generation-capacity-map/Distributed-Generation-EHV-Constraint-Maps/East-Midlands-Thermal-Map.aspx
>>
>>
>> No mention of 3.3kV , what ever you worked on isn't in place any more
>> or wasn't part of the distribution network.
>
> Who suggested it was part of the general distribution network?

The original title of the thread
The person who claimed that overhead poles ran 'at 3.3kV'

>
> Not in place? I very much doubt that, the project was a major and very
> expensive project, a show project.
>
> I said the site had (from memory) possibly two transformers on site, to
> feed the site. The run from the transformers was a matter of maybe 20yds
> to feed into my panels, which then fed 6x 3.3Kw variable speed motors. I
> very much doubt that would even be shown on such a small scale area map
> covering an entire county.

Thats all fair enough but the mistake was to claim that was a standard
grid voltage used in transmission. It isn't. And I am not sure it ever
was except in one or two legacy districts.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Proof by assertion?

11KV round here. Underground. Watched em put in in

I can find no mention of 3.3KV grid ANYWHERE at all.

It's used primarily for motors and as an intermediate voltage in power
stations. Never for any distance transmission.

i.e. NOT as part of the grid.


--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 20/03/17 14:36, damdu...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 13:33:23 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
> <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>> https://www.westernpower.co.uk/docs/connections/Generation/Generation-capacity-map/Distributed-Generation-EHV-Constraint-Maps/East-Midlands-Thermal-Map.aspx
>>>
>>> No mention of 3.3kV , what ever you worked on isn't in place any more
>>> or wasn't part of the distribution network.
>>
>> Who suggested it was part of the general distribution network?
>
> That particular project you worked may not have been but you cannot
> get away from that you interjected on this post from NY
> :
>>> Out here in a North Yorkshire village there seem to be 11 kV spurs, each
>>> with a pole-mounted transformer to step down to 240V. Where I'm sitting I
>>> can see the end of the 11 kV line and its transformer. Its 240V cables go
>>> underground to houses on one side of the road (probably built in 1950s)
>
> with "Are you sure it is 11Kv - more likely it will be 3.3Kv."
> So it looks very much like that you started your contribitions to
> this thread by commenting on the distribution network and only later
> invoked your experience of one particular project by suggesting it's
> rare use of 3.3kV = more likely.
>
> G.Harman
>

Exactly. I've lived all out in the sticks where everything is up a pole
and I talk to all the engineers who fixed the broken stuff because I am
an electrical engineer and I am interested.

I have never ever even *heard* of 3.3Kv as part of a grid system. Inside
a factory or power station yes. Out on poles - never.

>
>
>> Not in place? I very much doubt that, the project was a major and very
>> expensive project, a show project.
>>
>> I said the site had (from memory) possibly two transformers on site, to
>> feed the site. The run from the transformers was a matter of maybe
>> 20yds to feed into my panels, which then fed 6x 3.3Kw variable speed
>> motors. I very much doubt that would even be shown on such a small
>> scale area map covering an entire county.

--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

[James Wilkinson Sword]

That's short term. Presumably the above link is continuous capacity.

--
If you think people aren't creative, watch them try to re-fold a roadmap.

[Harry Bloomfield]

The Natural Philosopher explained :

> Proof by assertion?
>
> 11KV round here. Underground. Watched em put in in
>
> I can find no mention of 3.3KV grid ANYWHERE at all.
>
> It's used primarily for motors and as an intermediate voltage in power
> stations. Never for any distance transmission.
>
> i.e. NOT as part of the grid.

However the subject under discussion moved away from what everyone
would understand to be the grid, to local distribution. It was on the
subject of local distribution that I responded.

[Rod Speed]

"Harry Bloomfield" <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:oaokup$53f$1...@dont-email.me...

> The Natural Philosopher explained on 20/03/2017 :
>>> Not only is 3.3kV used in the UK, but 2kV, 3.5kV and 6.6kV are also
>>> used.
>>
>> No. Were used. Once. Not any more.
>
> Were used, suggests were installed. Once installed they are there until
> replaced - which rather suggests I was correct in the matter of the 3.3Kv,

Not with your 'more likely'. In fact it is much more likely that
it is 11KV and not 3.3KV.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Sorry but local distribution at 11kv is still part of the grid. Arguably
even the 240v feed from the last mile substation is still part of the grid.


--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 23:37:59 -0000, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

>> Even with the regulator our voltage wangs about all over the shop
when
>> the back up 11 kV is being used. Rises to above 255 at night and
drops
>> to 225 ish during the day. 240 to 245 is the normal range.
>

> Did you get anywhere with your complaint? I get 241V to 256V, which I
> consider very poor since 230V is supposed to be the normal.

They just moved the nominal voltage and tweaked the % +/- to pretty
much maintain the same "legal" range. Nothing if anything actually
changed. New supplies might aim for 230 more than 240.

> It's enough to regularly make my UPS put an overvoltage warning light on
> and step it down itself.

Its the UPS clicking that normally alerts me to the problem. B-)

> When I phoned them, they sent someone out in 30 minutes and sounded
> worried on the phone,

History: When we moved in we'd get through incandescant light bulbs
at about 1/month. Then I bought the UPS plugged it in and it went
straight into voltage reduction mode. Got out voltmeter, can't
remember what it was but close or over 253. Called the DNO, and there
was a knock on the door 2 hours later. Agreed my readings, peered at
pole transformer, made appointment for a few days later to adjust the
tappings. They came back adjusted the tapping as low as it would go
and we had something just over 240. Time passed and consumption rate
of incandescant light bulbs noticeably dropped.

> yet when the electrician arrived and confirmed my voltage readings, he
> said "within legal limits, nothing we can do, although if I was in
> charge I'd step it down a level".

Didn't offer a voltage monitor? We've had one of those, twice, when
I've complained about the overnight voltage when the primary
substation is being fed from the 11 kV backup. Last time it happened
(up to 256 for several hours over night) they took quite a bit of
interest in the graphs I can produce from the logged UPS voltage
readings. There was a certain amount of head scratching and going to
look at the regulator and the tweak of the 11 kV feed at Little
Selkeld. Got a call from some one in an office and ened up emailing
daily plots to him.

Of course with the local primary on the main 33 kV feed there isn't a
problem and the voltage is very stable at 240 - 245. The voltage
monitor was in for a few days after the feed switched back and the
follow up call said yes it was high during the 33 kV maintenance
period but there wasn't a lot they could do. I've not been aware of
any over voltage since then, which either means the primary hasn't
been on the back up or it has and they've made some adjustments.

Each time I've reported over voltage they've had a man at the door
within hours. Same with outages and speed of supply restoration,
either by rerouting or repairs. We have been off supply for 36 hours
but there had been an ice storm that brought down the lines in
multiple places and the shock of the lines breaking snapped half a
dozen or so poles. One of which carried one of the air switches in
"our" section so wasn't just a rip the stump out, plant a new pole
and restring the lines. But they worked from dawn to dusk for a
couple to days to replace it.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[The Other Mike]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 15:07:32 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 20/03/17 13:35, The Other Mike wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 13:23:21 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
>> <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> The Natural Philosopher explained on 20/03/2017 :
>>>>> Not only is 3.3kV used in the UK, but 2kV, 3.5kV and 6.6kV are also used.
>>>>
>>>> No. Were used. Once. Not any more.
>>>
>>> Were used, suggests were installed. Once installed they are there until
>>> replaced - which rather suggests I was correct in the matter of the
>>> 3.3Kv, though wrong in regards to what they installed on wooden poles.
>>
>> Harry you'd be better off arguing with a three week old dead badger, you'd get a
>> more coherent and accurate reply on subjects like this than from TNP. 3.3kV
>> has IME always been an underground voltage in the UK, with indoor switchgear.
>
>Proof by assertion?

Better than your profuse verbal bollocks as standard

>
>11KV round here. Underground. Watched em put in in

600kV 400kV 275kV 66kV, 33kV 11kV 3.3kV 415v around here there and everywhere in
the UK. Involved in the design, operation and maintenance. Watched them put it
in over many decades not as an uniformed casual observer from behind a barrier.
No doubt some of those voltage levels will confuse the fuck out of you. Feel
free to behave like demented chicken.

>I can find no mention of 3.3KV grid ANYWHERE at all.

That's because you somehow think everything is on the internet. It's not.

>It's used primarily for motors and as an intermediate voltage in power
>stations. Never for any distance transmission.

No one said it was used for 'distance transmission' whatever the fuck that
means. It's a distribution voltage used for short distance lightly loaded
undergrounds at many locations in the UK.

>i.e. NOT as part of the grid.

If you maintain 11kV is 'part of the grid' as you have just done in a reply to
Harry B elsewhere then the 3.3kV network running a mile from the 33kV/11kV/3.3kV
substation to a brick bunker with a transformer, a bit of switchgear and fusing
is also 'part of the grid' that you have never seen nor heard of this
configuration is no real surprise as it's not on the internet.



--

[James Wilkinson Sword]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 23:02:18 -0000, Dave Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 23:37:59 -0000, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
>
>>> Even with the regulator our voltage wangs about all over the shop
> when
>>> the back up 11 kV is being used. Rises to above 255 at night and
> drops
>>> to 225 ish during the day. 240 to 245 is the normal range.
>>
>> Did you get anywhere with your complaint? I get 241V to 256V, which I
>> consider very poor since 230V is supposed to be the normal.
>
> They just moved the nominal voltage and tweaked the % +/- to pretty
> much maintain the same "legal" range. Nothing if anything actually
> changed. New supplies might aim for 230 more than 240.

They recently replaced the substation across the road from me, which moved the voltage further from 230 (higher).

Not sure why they replaced it. It doesn't look bigger, and the old one didn't look that old.

>> It's enough to regularly make my UPS put an overvoltage warning light on
>> and step it down itself.
>
> Its the UPS clicking that normally alerts me to the problem. B-)

Same here, and before I got LED lighting everywhere, the CFL and incandescent lights changed brightness a little. I have the lighting circuits connected to it aswell, to increase the lifespan of the bulbs.

>> When I phoned them, they sent someone out in 30 minutes and sounded
>> worried on the phone,
>
> History: When we moved in we'd get through incandescant light bulbs
> at about 1/month. Then I bought the UPS plugged it in and it went
> straight into voltage reduction mode. Got out voltmeter, can't
> remember what it was but close or over 253. Called the DNO, and there
> was a knock on the door 2 hours later. Agreed my readings, peered at
> pole transformer, made appointment for a few days later to adjust the
> tappings. They came back adjusted the tapping as low as it would go
> and we had something just over 240. Time passed and consumption rate
> of incandescant light bulbs noticeably dropped.

Sounds like you have a more sensible electrician than I do.

>> yet when the electrician arrived and confirmed my voltage readings, he
>> said "within legal limits, nothing we can do, although if I was in
>> charge I'd step it down a level".
>
> Didn't offer a voltage monitor?

I gave him a log of my voltages over a week, which he believed as his meter agreed with mine.

Ice storm? Where are you, the Outer Hebrides?

--
Local police hunting the "knitting needle nutter", who has stabbed six people in the last 48 hours, believe the attacker could be following some kind of pattern.

[gopalan...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 11:05:01 PM UTC+11, NY wrote:
> "newshound" <news...@stevejqr.plus.com> wrote in message
> news:78idnbbcI6BrhVDF...@brightview.co.uk...

> > On 3/18/2017 11:18 AM, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote wrote:
> >> Despite extensive googling, there seems to be nothing that tells me how
> >> much
> >> current flows along wires on a national grid pylon. They only list
> >> voltages.
> >> Anybody know?
> >
> > A 400 kV National Grid circuit may carry 1 kA in each of its three phases,
> > thus transmitting a power of 700 MW.
> > A 132 kV distribution circuit may carry 300 A in each of its three phases,
> > thus transmitting a power of 70 MW.
> > An 11 kV distribution circuit may carry 150 A in each of its three phases,
> > thus transmitting a power of 3 MW.
> > A 400 V final distribution circuit may carry 200 A in each of its three
> > phases, thus transmitting a power of 150 kW.
>

> 200A per phase at 400V (240V phase-to-neutral) doesn't sound very high. We
> have a 60 A "company fuse" and I presume our neighbours do too. With an
> electric fire (3 KW), an electric shower (maybe 8 kW) and an electric oven
> and hob (maybe 6 KW), you'd be getting towards that limit but still
> remaining legal. Now imagine lots of people roundabout doing that. It
> doesn't take many houses to run up 200 A - or a total of 600 A across all
> three phases. How many houses are typically fed from a single feed from the
> substation or 11 kV-to-400V pole-mounted transformer? What is the average
> current that is assumed per house when sizing up the number of houses that
> can be fed from one substation circuit? I presume it not the full 60A of the
> company fuse rating.
>
> > And Supergrid pylons (400 and 275 kV) are normally double circuit, aren't
> > they? Three wires on each side of the "tree".
>
> How much of the route from the power station to the consumer is redundant
> multi-circuit? At one point, typically, does it change over to a given house
> only being fed by one set of wires, and if that line develops a fault there
> is no backup circuit?
>
> Is there a backup route as far as the final substation that transforms to 11
> kV or 400V, or is it higher up the chain?
>
> I presume for maximum redundancy they try to use feeds from different places
> rather than two sets of wires carried on the same pylons, in case an
> accident takes out *all* the wires (both circuits).
>
> I'm intrigued at the way house gets its electricity supply. There is
> overhead mains on wooden poles (originally four separate wires, now a single
> fat cable with four wires) and our house is the middle house of two adjacent
> blocks of three houses. There is a single feed from the wooden poles to the
> end of one block, and then four wires running along the back of one block,
> overhead across the gap to the next block and along there, with each house
> taking its feed from neutral and one of the three phases - I think no two
> adjacent houses are on the same phase. I suppose this is less unsightly than
> every one of the six houses having its own single-phase feed from the street
> poles.
"400V (240V phase-to-neutral)" is not right,
it is 415V (240V phase to neutral)

[F Murtz]

The Peeler wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 23:34:04 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
> the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:
>
>> I thought it sounded a little ambiguous when I wrote it.
>
> Rest assured that you ALWAYS sound like a complete idiot, whenever you
> "write" something, Birdbrain!
>
I have been watching this discussion and only one poster has said
nothing of any consequence and has added nothing to the discussion.(I
wonder who?)

[F Murtz]

bm wrote:
> "Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ej8e6v...@mid.individual.net...
>
> Ahhhhh, Wodney is here with all the answers.
>
>
He is not far off,somewhere on this page is a rough guide to insulator
disks for various voltages.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulator_%28electricity%29#History

[F Murtz]

The Peeler wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 23:32:06 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),

> the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:
>
>>
>> I thought
>

> There's the snag again, Birdbrain!
>
Still not seeing any sensible input.

[F Murtz]

The Peeler wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 15:45:05 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),

> the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:
>
>>

>> That's short term. Presumably the above link is continuous capacity.
>

> All I see is your continuous idiocy, Birdbrain!
>
You seem to have some sort of fixation, there would probably be a remedy
for this but away from usenet.

[PeterC]

I've killfiled JWS and The Peeler so if you'd shut TFU about JWS I won't
have to KF you.
I don't see their peurile garbage and I don't want your dubious obsession
reminding me of it, thank you.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

[Chris J Dixon]

PeterC wrote:

>I've killfiled JWS and The Peeler so if you'd shut TFU about JWS I won't
>have to KF you.
>I don't see their peurile garbage and I don't want your dubious obsession
>reminding me of it, thank you.

+1

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk

Plant amazing Acers.

[Harry Bloomfield]

The Other Mike presented the following explanation :

> If you maintain 11kV is 'part of the grid' as you have just done in a reply
> to
> Harry B elsewhere then the 3.3kV network running a mile from the
> 33kV/11kV/3.3kV
> substation to a brick bunker with a transformer, a bit of switchgear and
> fusing
> is also 'part of the grid' that you have never seen nor heard of this
> configuration is no real surprise as it's not on the internet.

Another example I remember of a 3.3Kv feed was used in Doncaster. The
2x PS's were a mile and 3 miles from the main road. Each had their own
sub-station transformed down to 415v all feeds were underground. The
motors used a Wauchope start system, but the mile long 3.3Kv also fed a
factory. They (tractor) factory was constantly complaining to the
supplier of the voltage dropping as the pumps kicked in. It was not
resolved whilst I was out there.

Another 3.3kv feed, on wooden poles, was used for a PS draining the
fens. The original pump had been a wind driven pump, that had then been
replaced with a pair of beautiful old diesel pumps, then finally a pair
of 415v electric pumps. They were almost always at least two pumps, to
allow for breakdowns and maintenance.

[The Natural Philosopher]

no examples of a 3.3kv feed in the UK that is shared between consumers
has yet been provided.

I maintain that these are private links.

The discussions is about grid feeds to multiple consumers, not a private
feed to specialised industrial customers

--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."

[F Murtz]

Chris J Dixon wrote:
> PeterC wrote:
>
>> I've killfiled JWS and The Peeler so if you'd shut TFU about JWS I won't
>> have to KF you.
>> I don't see their peurile garbage and I don't want your dubious obsession
>> reminding me of it, thank you.
>
> +1
>
> Chris
>

JWS initiated this lengthy discussion and so far the only one (except me
:) ) who has not contributed one iota of sensible discussion has been
someone called The Peeler.JWS may annoy many but in this instance this
discussion would not have been.
Does The peeler ever initiate posts,or only react to JWS posts?

[James Wilkinson Sword]

Or 400V (230V phase-to-neutral)?

--
TV takes over your life when you could be doing useful things like smoking crack and stealing car stereos.

[Max Demian]

Bloody EU, stealing 10 of our good British volts. That's why I voted brexit.

--
Max Demian

[James Wilkinson Sword]

And we added 10 to theirs.

--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[James Wilkinson Sword]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:09:33 -0000, The Peeler <finish...@therevd.invalid> wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Mar 2017 15:49:05 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),

> the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:
>

>>> "400V (240V phase-to-neutral)" is not right,
>>> it is 415V (240V phase to neutral)
>>
>> Or 400V (230V phase-to-neutral)?
>

> NOTHING about you (and your birdbrain) is right, Birdbrain!

Please provide valid input to the conversation.

[James Wilkinson Sword]

Tell PeterC to get a decent killfile that doesn't see replies to my posts.

[James Wilkinson Sword]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2017 10:26:08 -0000, The Peeler <finish...@therevd.invalid> wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Mar 2017 00:20:31 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),

> the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:
>

> <FLUSH yet more insipid BULLSHIT unread>

Usin the word flush makes you sound like Rod Speed.

[charles]

In article <oam023$8u5$1...@dont-email.me>, Harry Bloomfield
<harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> NY has brought this to us :

> > Out here in a North Yorkshire village there seem to be 11 kV spurs,
> > each with a pole-mounted transformer to step down to 240V. Where I'm
> > sitting I can see the end of the 11 kV line and its transformer. Its
> > 240V cables go underground to houses on one side of the road (probably

> > built in 1950s) and then come above ground to 3-phase 240V overhead
> > wires to the houses on the other side of the road (1930s).

> Are you sure it is 11Kv - more likely it will be 3.3Kv.

when I worked with SESEB (c 1960) 11kV was the lowest voltage for bulk
supply.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

[charles]

In article <oaph6l$3ns$1...@news.albasani.net>, The Natural Philosopher

<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 20/03/17 16:05, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
> > The Natural Philosopher explained :
> >> Proof by assertion?
> >>
> >> 11KV round here. Underground. Watched em put in in
> >>
> >> I can find no mention of 3.3KV grid ANYWHERE at all.
> >>
> >> It's used primarily for motors and as an intermediate voltage in power
> >> stations. Never for any distance transmission.
> >>
> >> i.e. NOT as part of the grid.
> >
> > However the subject under discussion moved away from what everyone
> > would understand to be the grid, to local distribution. It was on the
> > subject of local distribution that I responded.

> Sorry but local distribution at 11kv is still part of the grid. Arguably
> even the 240v feed from the last mile substation is still part of the
> grid.

The National Grid uses 132kV and above; the rest is owned by the Local
supply Company

[charles]

In article <oamohk$sm4$1...@dont-email.me>,
Harry Bloomfield <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> damdu...@yahoo.co.uk expressed precisely :
> > Wonder if H Bloomfield did a typo and meant 33Kv which is used
> > frequently .

> No, I meant 3.3Kv or 3Kv3. So far as I am aware, all 11Kv and up is on
> metal poles.


Plenty of 11kV on wooden poles

[charles]

In article <oajl6v$i49$1...@dont-email.me>, Andrew Mawson
<andrew@please_remove_me.mawson.org.uk> wrote:
> "NY" wrote in message
> news:48-dnecPqMX2v1DF...@brightview.co.uk...

> <SNIP>

> >
> >How much of the route from the power station to the consumer is
> >redundant multi-circuit? At one point, typically, does it change over
> >to a given house only being fed by one set of wires, and if that line
> >develops a fault there is no backup circuit?
> >
> >Is there a backup route as far as the final substation that transforms
> >to 11 kV or 400V, or is it higher up the chain?
> >
> >I presume for maximum redundancy they try to use feeds from different
> >places rather than two sets of wires carried on the same pylons, in case
> >an accident takes out *all* the wires (both circuits).
> >
> >I'm intrigued at the way house gets its electricity supply. There is
> >overhead mains on wooden poles (originally four separate wires, now a
> >single fat cable with four wires) and our house is the middle house of
> >two adjacent blocks of three houses. There is a single feed from the
> >wooden poles to the end of one block, and then four wires running along
> >the back of one block, overhead across the gap to the next block and
> >along there, with each house taking its feed from neutral and one of
> >the three phases - I think no two adjacent houses are on the same
> >phase. I suppose this is less unsightly than every one of the six
> >houses having its own single-phase feed from the street poles.
> >
> >
> >

> They always used to rotate phases down a street, so (say) phase 1 ->
> house 1, phase 2 -> house 2, phase 3 -> house 3, then phase 1 -> street
> lighting, phase 2 -> house 4 and so on down the road to balance the load
> between phases.

I think they stopped doing that many years ago. There's a small
development of 26 bungalows near us - built about 30 years ago - all on the
same phase.

[James Wilkinson Sword]

I guess it doesn't matter how many on each, as long as it's even on each substation.

--
"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons."
- General MacArthur

[The Natural Philosopher]

I didnt specify *National* Grid.


--
“it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.”

Vaclav Klaus

[charles]

In article <ob179j$tma$3...@news.albasani.net>, The Natural Philosopher

<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 23/03/17 13:38, charles wrote:
> > In article <oaph6l$3ns$1...@news.albasani.net>, The Natural Philosopher
> > <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> On 20/03/17 16:05, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
> >>> The Natural Philosopher explained :
> >>>> Proof by assertion?
> >>>>
> >>>> 11KV round here. Underground. Watched em put in in
> >>>>
> >>>> I can find no mention of 3.3KV grid ANYWHERE at all.
> >>>>
> >>>> It's used primarily for motors and as an intermediate voltage in
> >>>> power stations. Never for any distance transmission.
> >>>>
> >>>> i.e. NOT as part of the grid.
> >>>
> >>> However the subject under discussion moved away from what everyone
> >>> would understand to be the grid, to local distribution. It was on the
> >>> subject of local distribution that I responded.
> >
> >> Sorry but local distribution at 11kv is still part of the grid.
> >> Arguably even the 240v feed from the last mile substation is still
> >> part of the grid.
> >
> > The National Grid uses 132kV and above; the rest is owned by the Local
> > supply Company
> >
> I didnt specify *National* Grid.

what other kind of "Grid " is there.

[damdu...@yahoo.co.uk]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:38:31 +0000 (GMT), charles
<cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:


>
>The National Grid uses 132kV and above; the rest is owned by the Local
>supply Company

A lot of the 132kV infrastructure owned by the old state owned CEGB
when it was operated as part of the bulk transfer system which is what
most people mean by National Grid was transferred to the area boards
in England and Wales. This came about after much of it had been
superceded by the later 275kV and 400kV so the 132kV network which was
the original National Grid from the 1930's was reclassified as
distribution and so fell into the local boards remit.
Quite a long time ago now back in the 1970's I think it was but
because the original National Grid with its 132kV got so well known
even today a lot of people don't know the transfer took place make
the assumption that 132kV = National Grid. .
I think National Grid now only have 132kV lines in Scotland but with
all the changes since privatization they may have acquired some again
in England and Wales, the present private operators who succeeded the
boards such as Western Power Distribution are still adding to their
132kV infrastructure sometimes replacing 33kV to increase capacity or
as a way to link in a solar or wind farm over a reasonable distance,
and as I pointed out elsewhere in the thread these 132kV lines are
often on single wooden poles. They are easily recognisable as the
large insulators are arranged in a Trident shape to get the conductor
separation.
http://www.freedom-group.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Cherry-Green-Reed-Trident-5-Copy.jpg

G.Harman

[The Natural Philosopher]

Oh dear.

Why dont you google it?



--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

[charles]

In article <ob2kfh$gn7$2...@news.albasani.net>,

I worked, albeit 50 year ago, in the electricity supply industry,

[tony sayer]

In article <eum8dclvf63m1j0nq...@4ax.com>, damduck-
e...@yahoo.co.uk scribeth thus

Ah! thought they were some odd 66 kV thing, some here near Royston
Herts..

https://goo.gl/maps/B9j2qM3EqYQ2
--
Tony Sayer

[laluyadu...@gmail.com]

1133

[The Other John]

On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 07:07:25 -0700, laluyaduvansi705 wrote:

> 1133

?

Hopefully none unless there's a fault!

--
TOJ.

[Cynic]

The 11kv ring is rarely closed but run with a deliberate open circuit to limit fault levels.thus points are fed from one end or the other. If a section suffers damage or requires operational intervention it can be switched out and the remainder of the system can continue to operate by selective switching.

[charles]

In article <1d822290-e13e-4f19...@googlegroups.com>, Cynic

when I worked for SESEB in the early 1960s, 11kV was a real ring

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 15/08/18 16:46, charles wrote:
> In article <1d822290-e13e-4f19...@googlegroups.com>, Cynic
> <johnje...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The 11kv ring is rarely closed but run with a deliberate open circuit to
>> limit fault levels.thus points are fed from one end or the other. If a
>> section suffers damage or requires operational intervention it can be
>> switched out and the remainder of the system can continue to operate by
>> selective switching.
>
> when I worked for SESEB in the early 1960s, 11kV was a real ring
>

11KV here is a real ring


--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

[Dave Liquorice]

On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 20:21:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> 11KV here is a real ring

Not here. The distribution looks like a collection of rings but
strategically placed air switches that would create actual rings, if
closed, are left open. When there is a fault these (NO or NC)
switches can be opened/closed to isolate the fault and get customers
on unaffected sections of line back on supply quickly. Once the fault
has been cleared and the affected line re-energised there might be a
short period of time when true rings exist but only until the NO
switches are opened.

There are also implications with rings and auto-reclosers. If one
auto-recloser trips, it's "dead" side will still be live via the
auto-recloser feeding the other end of the ring. Which knocks onto to
loading, with one auto-recloser tripped all the load on the (ex) ring
is fed via that single line, re-closer and overload protection.

Current in pylons, hopefully none. In the cables between them, I've
watched an ammeter monitoring one of the 125 kV lines feeding
Cardiff. The needle was gently waving by about 10 A centred on 100 A
ish. That's only 12.5 MW. I think the 500 kV lines can carry a GW or
more, thats 2000 A +.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Brian Gaff]

Or its struck by lightning as I had the misfortune to be standing near one
when it was. It was bleedin loud.
No damage done though. I think this is one reason they have that extra
cable across the top.
However I think this post must have been from a bot.
Brian

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