Parts needed for Glow Worm Sunrod G50 boiler

[batobato...@googlemail.com]

The gas valve and / or burner on my faithful old Sunrod G50 boiler have finally failed after about 50 years use.

Unlikely, I know, but I don't suppose anyone has these parts available, or any idea where I could get them?

I would really like to keep this extremely reliable boiler going if at all possible.

I'd appreciate any advice.

Many thanks,

John

[John Rumm]

On 04/08/2016 12:32, batobato...@googlemail.com wrote:
> The gas valve and / or burner on my faithful old Sunrod G50 boiler
> have finally failed after about 50 years use.

Have you got the part number and make of the gas valve? (probably got
more luck with that than the burner I would expect)

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[John]

On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 12:41:52 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

John:

Thanks for replying. How would I find these?

John

[Tim+]

John <batobato...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 12:41:52 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
>> On 04/08/2016 12:32, John wrote:
>>> The gas valve and / or burner on my faithful old Sunrod G50 boiler
>>> have finally failed after about 50 years use.
>>
>> Have you got the part number and make of the gas valve? (probably got
>> more luck with that than the burner I would expect)

>

> Thanks for replying. How would I find these?

Label stuck on the side of the valve? Failing this a photo would be useful.

Tim


--
Trolls AND TROLL FEEDERS all go in my kill file

[Tim+]

Tim+ <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote:

> John <batobato...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Thanks for replying. How would I find these?
>
> Label stuck on the side of the valve?

Eg. https://goo.gl/images/v6Urx9

[Tim+]

Please forgive yet another follow up, but, it occurs to me that given that
you don't seem to know which part has failed it would be much more helpful
if you could tell us what you *do* know.

Presumably it's an open vented, cast iron heat exchanger device with a
traditional pilot light? There aren't a lot of failure modes to consider
and it should be possible to narrow things down a bit better than "burner
or gas valve".

Burners may rot or get blocked jets but don't generally "fail" so if it's
not lighting you need to look "upstream".

Is the pilot light staying lit? If it is, does the gas valve click when
there is a call for heat?

If it clicks can you hear a his of gas? If it doesn't click, it could be a
valve problem or an electrical supply problem.

Does it have an overheat stat? If this has tripped it'll stop the gas valve
opening.

Is your pump working okay? Failing pump could cause overheating etc....

Tim

--
Trolls and troll feeders go in my killfile

[Capitol]

Almost all these boilers used the same gas valves, but with
different part numbers to confuse the public. Most were made by
Honeywell and spares are readily available. Do a search and send out a
few enquiries. About £200 is the going price I believe, but I managed to
pick up a spare for £25 last year in the US, who use the same 24V gas
valves. The detailed data for the gas valves is difficult to find, but I
found a data sheet on a ck website after a lot of searching. Found this:-


https://www.keeptheheaton.com/products/honeywell-v4400c1211-gas-valve-240v?google_landing=1&gclid=CMjJifTvp84CFQYq0wodes4JPg

The burner is more difficult. Is it the burner with holes in,
or the jets? The jets are readily available. The burner should be
repairable I'd have thought with a bit of welding.

[batobato...@googlemail.com]

On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 2:32:57 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:

>
> Please forgive yet another follow up, but, it occurs to me that given that
> you don't seem to know which part has failed it would be much more helpful
> if you could tell us what you *do* know.
>
> Presumably it's an open vented, cast iron heat exchanger device with a
> traditional pilot light? There aren't a lot of failure modes to consider
> and it should be possible to narrow things down a bit better than "burner
> or gas valve".
>
> Burners may rot or get blocked jets but don't generally "fail" so if it's
> not lighting you need to look "upstream".
>
> Is the pilot light staying lit? If it is, does the gas valve click when
> there is a call for heat?
>
> If it clicks can you hear a his of gas? If it doesn't click, it could be a
> valve problem or an electrical supply problem.
>
> Does it have an overheat stat? If this has tripped it'll stop the gas valve
> opening.
>
> Is your pump working okay? Failing pump could cause overheating etc....
>
> Tim
>
> --
> Trolls and troll feeders go in my killfile

Tim:

I'll take a look tonight to see if there's a label or take a photo. Replies below:

Presumably it's an open vented, cast iron heat exchanger device with a
traditional pilot light? There aren't a lot of failure modes to consider
and it should be possible to narrow things down a bit better than "burner
or gas valve".

Yes. My CORGI plumber told me it was one of these, and to look on the internet to see if parts are available.

Burners may rot or get blocked jets but don't generally "fail" so if it's
not lighting you need to look "upstream".

It will light, but blue flames immediately appear around the front of the boiler casing.

Is the pilot light staying lit? If it is, does the gas valve click when
there is a call for heat?

Yes. Can't remember if it clicks, and it is disconnected now pending repair/replacement

If it clicks can you hear a his of gas? If it doesn't click, it could be a
valve problem or an electrical supply problem.

Gas supply does not seem to be a problem.

Does it have an overheat stat? If this has tripped it'll stop the gas valve
opening.

Not relevant, I think, as this happens as soon as lit.

Is your pump working okay? Failing pump could cause overheating etc....

Yes, no problem with pump.

Many thanks,

John

[batobato...@googlemail.com]

On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 2:36:39 PM UTC+1, Capitol wrote:

I think it has holes rather than jets, but will check tonight.

Many thanks,

John

[Tim+]

<batobato...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 2:32:57 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
>
>
> Burners may rot or get blocked jets but don't generally "fail" so if it's
> not lighting you need to look "upstream".
>
> It will light, but blue flames immediately appear around the front of the boiler casing.
>

That sounds, um, a bit f*cked. ;-)

You really need to take a look at the burner to see what's what and if it's
repairable. As John says, a replacement burner is probably unobtainable.

[Capitol]

Sounds like the flue is blocked? Or there is a gas leak internally?

[Fredxxx]

On 04/08/2016 15:09, batobato...@googlemail.com wrote:

<snip>

> Burners may rot or get blocked jets but don't generally "fail" so if it's
> not lighting you need to look "upstream".
>
> It will light, but blue flames immediately appear around the front of the boiler casing.

That doesn't sound right at all. Can you provide a photo?

I have known old burners needing a very good clean where the holes
become partially blocked. Again remove and lets see some photos.

[batobato...@googlemail.com]

On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 5:43:58 PM UTC+1, Capitol wrote:
> Tim+ wrote:

There's no gas leak. There was a fall of soot, but I thought the plumber cleared this when we had the problem. I'll contact him and verify again and report back next week. I do hope this is the problem!

Thanks,

John

[John]

On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 7:26:26 PM UTC+1, Fredxxx wrote:

Thanks - I think I'll have to get the plumber back and have a close look at this. Thanks for your suggestion.

John

[Tim+]

Does it discharge into a chimney? Is there a cap to stop Jackdaws building
nests?

[Fredxxx]

This is a DIY group! Is there any reason why you can't remove the burner
yourself? One of that vintage should come out quit easily though I can't
find a manual for this boiler.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

Reliable but crap efficiency & poor safety. If nothing else, check your fresh air supply is always sufficient & fit a CO alarm.


NT

[Capitol]

tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, 4 August 2016 12:32:51 UTC+1, batobato...@googlemail.com wrote:
>
>
>> The gas valve and / or burner on my faithful old Sunrod G50 boiler have finally failed after about 50 years use.
>>
>> Unlikely, I know, but I don't suppose anyone has these parts available, or any idea where I could get them?
>>
>> I would really like to keep this extremely reliable boiler going if at all possible.
>>
>> I'd appreciate any advice.
>>
>> Many thanks,
>>
>> John
>>

> Reliable but crap efficiency& poor safety. If nothing else, check your fresh air supply is always sufficient& fit a CO alarm.
>
>
> NT
>

Efficiency should be in the 78% region.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, 6 August 2016 09:50:02 UTC+1, Capitol wrote:

> tabbypurr wrote:
> > On Thursday, 4 August 2016 12:32:51 UTC+1, batobato...@googlemail.com wrote:
> >
> >
> >> The gas valve and / or burner on my faithful old Sunrod G50 boiler have finally failed after about 50 years use.

> > Reliable but crap efficiency& poor safety. If nothing else, check your fresh air supply is always sufficient& fit a CO alarm.
>

> Efficiency should be in the 78% region.

How do you get that figure?


NT

[Fredxxx]

I would say a little over optimistic given its age. Its alos too old for
any published rating.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, 6 August 2016 11:10:53 UTC+1, Fredxxx wrote:
> On 06/08/2016 09:50, Capitol wrote:

> > tabbypurr wrote:
> >> On Thursday, 4 August 2016 12:32:51 UTC+1, batobato...@googlemail.com
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> The gas valve and / or burner on my faithful old Sunrod G50 boiler
> >>> have finally failed after about 50 years use.
> >>>

> >> Reliable but crap efficiency& poor safety. If nothing else, check
> >> your fresh air supply is always sufficient& fit a CO alarm.
> >

> > Efficiency should be in the 78% region.
>
> I would say a little over optimistic given its age. Its alos too old for
> any published rating.

Lasting 50 years I presume makes it a cast iron exchanger. Presumably the 'rods' are short things moulded into the iron to improve heat exchange. So it'll be in the 60s of % efficient, with a lot of thermal inertia. So you're paying around 50% above a modern boiler's gas bill. OTOH no endless repair & replace costs. There's always the risk you might need repair and/or replacement though.


NT

[Capitol]

> Lasting 50 years I presume makes it a cast iron exchanger. Presumably the 'rods' are short things moulded into the iron to improve heat exchange. So it'll be in the 60s of % efficient, with a lot of thermal inertia. So you're paying around 50% above a modern boiler's gas bill. OTOH no endless repair& replace costs. There's always the risk you might need repair and/or replacement though.
>
>
> NT
>

45 years ago the average efficiency for an Ideal Standard gas
boiler was in the region I specified. Manufacturers figures. A modern
boiler is not much better if in non condensing mode.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, 6 August 2016 14:02:49 UTC+1, Capitol wrote:
> tabbypurr:

> > On Saturday, 6 August 2016 11:10:53 UTC+1, Fredxxx wrote:
> >> On 06/08/2016 09:50, Capitol wrote:
> >>> tabbypurr wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, 4 August 2016 12:32:51 UTC+1, batobato...@googlemail.com
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> The gas valve and / or burner on my faithful old Sunrod G50 boiler
> >>>>> have finally failed after about 50 years use.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> Reliable but crap efficiency& poor safety. If nothing else, check
> >>>> your fresh air supply is always sufficient& fit a CO alarm.
> >>>>
> >>> Efficiency should be in the 78% region.
> >>>
> >> I would say a little over optimistic given its age. Its alos too old for
> >> any published rating.
> >>
> > Lasting 50 years I presume makes it a cast iron exchanger. Presumably the 'rods' are short things moulded into the iron to improve heat exchange. So it'll be in the 60s of % efficient, with a lot of thermal inertia. So you're paying around 50% above a modern boiler's gas bill. OTOH no endless repair& replace costs. There's always the risk you might need repair and/or replacement though.
>

> 45 years ago the average efficiency for an Ideal Standard gas
> boiler was in the region I specified. Manufacturers figures. A modern
> boiler is not much better if in non condensing mode.

that would explain it, it was a manufacturer's figure. It's also a different boiler.


NT

[John Rumm]

I would expect something like 60 to 65% for a non fan, open flue,
permanent pilot boiler. Perhaps mid 70s for a more recent balanced flue
version. However those figures could be lower if driving a poorly
matched load, and by having poor system controls (i.e. no pump overrun).

The matching problem is less of an issue with modulating boilers.

[therustyone]

Blue flames outside the case !! Wow, it should be all airtight.

It's probably similar to my faithful old Glow Worm Space Saver 50 installed new in the 1970's I believe. This has a cylindrical steel burner around 2" diam that just drops into place around the jet. You take the white enamelled cover off first (wing nuts at the back), then take off the internal cover around the burner which, from memory, just clips into place.
I found some spares easy to get on the internet around 12 years ago.

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <_ZKdndTZ65ZR7T7K...@brightview.co.uk>,

This means the channels up through the heat exchanger are blocked.
Almost certainly nothing wrong with the gas valve or burners.

First thing, you need to get a different Gas Safe engineer (or CORGI
in Northern Ireland). The one you have is incompetent - he has
wrongly diagnosed the problem, and should have disconnected the boiler
as unsafe.

You said there was a fall of soot - where from?
You probably need to get the chimney swept before cleaning boiler.
Then you need to get the boiler serviced by someone who knows what
they're doing. This involves removing the burners and getting access
to the combustion channels and using a stiff brush to brush out all
the soot, being careful not to knock off too many of the heat
exchanger nipples. (Brushes are sized and shaped to fit channels in
different boilers.) Use mirrors and lights to ensure the channels
are completely clear of soot. Then the burners need soot and dust
cleaning out, and ensuring jet(s) and mixer tubes are clear (might
be one for all of them, or one per burner, depending on design).

If the boiler is running properly, no soot is formed. In normal
operation, a small amount of solid debris forms (burned dust, flies,
etc) inside the heat exchanger. This falls off and can get into the
burner air intake (together with dust). As the air intake gets
restricted by dirt, the flames will start to generate soot, and this
drops back and rapidly makes the situation worse. Within a couple of
weeks, the effect will "run-away" rapidly generating more soot, which
rapidly makes it worse until it's ended up in the state yours is in.

It's an open-flued boiler and extremely dangerous to use in this
state, as it will be generating carbon monoxide in addition to soot.
This type of boiler really does need an annual check, and you should
have carbon monoxide detectors fitted and tested at the same time.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <B-GdnX-RhsprQjjK...@brightview.co.uk>,

Capitol <sp...@whereva.uk> writes:
>
> 45 years ago the average efficiency for an Ideal Standard gas
> boiler was in the region I specified. Manufacturers figures. A modern
> boiler is not much better if in non condensing mode.

They aren't worked out in the same way.
You can't compare the figures.
(In particular, the original manufacturers figures won't allow
for the heat wasted by a continuous pilot light, but also the
calculation methodoligy has changed at least twice since then.)

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <eJednSUDBv152T7K...@brightview.co.uk>,

Capitol <sp...@whereva.uk> writes:
> batobato...@googlemail.com wrote:
>> The gas valve and / or burner on my faithful old Sunrod G50 boiler have finally failed after about 50 years use.
>>
>> Unlikely, I know, but I don't suppose anyone has these parts available, or any idea where I could get them?
>>
>> I would really like to keep this extremely reliable boiler going if at all possible.
>>
>> I'd appreciate any advice.
>>
>> Many thanks,
>>
>> John
>>
> Almost all these boilers used the same gas valves, but with
> different part numbers to confuse the public. Most were made by
> Honeywell and spares are readily available. Do a search and send out a
> few enquiries. About £200 is the going price I believe, but I managed to
> pick up a spare for £25 last year in the US, who use the same 24V gas
> valves. The detailed data for the gas valves is difficult to find, but I
> found a data sheet on a ck website after a lot of searching. Found this:-
>
>
> https://www.keeptheheaton.com/products/honeywell-v4400c1211-gas-valve-240v?google_landing=1&gclid=CMjJifTvp84CFQYq0wodes4JPg

Gas boiler of that age I used to service had a completely different
design of gas valve. It used (abused?) a pressure reducing valve to
operate as a gas valve for the main burners. It exposed what would
normally be the air pressure side to gas pressure via a tiny orifice,
which shut the thing off. To turn it on, it had a tiny gas valve which
let the gas pressure leak away from the normal air side, which opened
the pressure reducing valve (and it burned the leaked-away gas in an
extra single burner).

> The burner is more difficult. Is it the burner with holes in,
> or the jets? The jets are readily available. The burner should be
> repairable I'd have thought with a bit of welding.

If it's that bad, I would say it's had it. However, I never saw a
burner that needed anything other than cleaning.

Like I said elsewhere, no evidence was posted that there was anything
wrong with the valve or burner (beyond normal servicing). I strongly
suspect the problem is blocked flue channels through the heat exchanger,
having serviced similar boilers myself in the dim and distant past.

[Dragon Ball]

在 2016年8月4日星期四 UTC+8下午7:32:51，batobato...@googlemail.com写道：

> The gas valve and / or burner on my faithful old Sunrod G50 boiler have finally failed after about 50 years use.
>
> Unlikely, I know, but I don't suppose anyone has these parts available, or any idea where I could get them?
>
> I would really like to keep this extremely reliable boiler going if at all possible.
>
> I'd appreciate any advice.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> John

First of all, I am surprised that you can use 50 years, the quality of the product is also very good, for what can help you, I think their customer service can help you solve the problem online.
http://www.stainless-steel-submersible-pumps.com/

[batobato...@googlemail.com]

On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 12:32:51 PM UTC+1, batobato...@googlemail.com wrote:
> The gas valve and / or burner on my faithful old Sunrod G50 boiler have finally failed after about 50 years use.
>
> Unlikely, I know, but I don't suppose anyone has these parts available, or any idea where I could get them?
>
> I would really like to keep this extremely reliable boiler going if at all possible.
>
> I'd appreciate any advice.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> John

Just to close this off, Andrew was quite correct. The combustion channels were totally blocked with soot. Once we cleaned this out the boiler worked perfectly. I shall make sure this is done every year from now on.
Many thanks for this valuable advice which hopefully resulted in many more years' service from this boiler.
John

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <2e89b658-8ce0-488d...@googlegroups.com>,

Chances are it went without a clean for *a lot* more than a year if it
sooted up. But once it starts, it blocks very quickly.

--
*When chemists die, they barium.*

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.