15mm GAS compression joint - the correct way please?
rob
I called in an engineer from a gas hob company the other week (£47
callout charge!), to repair a faulty gas hob heat control knob.
He takes out the (electric) cooker below, takes a look at underneath
the hob, then says "sorry, I can't fix your hob - there is no stop
cock fitted" Not only that, but he also shuts down my hot water boiler
because it is 'technically' unsafe!
It's a combi, and the hot water was turned on as he was checking the
pressure at one of the hobs gas rings. Apparently, during his
measurement, the gas pressure dropped 5milibars (or something like
that) when the hot water tap sprung the combi into life- when it
should have only dropped 1 milibar. The long and short of this being
that the gas pipework to my boiler is not wide enough - so now my hob
is still knackered & my boiler was turned off!!(for all of five
minutes after he left). he even hinted as he left that "Of course,
what you do after I leave is none of my business ..."
Incidentally none of this equipt was installed by me!
I'm all for safety, but I can't help but feel this guy was a robot! If
there are any CORGI people out there yes, I know the law requires him
to do this, blah, blah.
Anyway back to my original problem. Iwent & bought (any CORGI people
still reading at this point please turn away) then fitted a gas stop
cock. Pours the fairy liquid on - no probs, sound as a pound. The
thing is though he is coming back this weekend & I reckon he is going
to be licking his lips with anticipation! What is the correct (dare I
say CORGI) manner in which to install a gas 15mm compression joint.
Are you meant to use Boss white & hemp on the threads of the
compression joint or can the whole lot be fitted as per a normal
'water' plumbing compression - i.e. nowt?
Thanks for reading - any advice gratefully received.
rgds,
Rob.
pop.dial.pipex.com
doesn't come into it. Be safe, but dont take shit off people, especially
when you are paying them. CORGI can also stand for "CONMEN OR ROGUE GAS
INSTALLERS".
He is probably right in what he said but 20 foot of 22mm copper will sort
it, it is not a major life threatening problem.
Andrew Gabriel
robert...@virgin.net (rob) writes:
>Are you meant to use Boss white & hemp on the threads of the
>compression joint or can the whole lot be fitted as per a normal
>'water' plumbing compression - i.e. nowt?
The threads of the compression joint are not forming the gas
seal and don't need anything. The mating surfaces which form
the seal will be damaged if anything is used between them;
they form a ball and cone joint seal.
--
Andrew Gabriel
Consultant Software Engineer
keithm...@my-dejanews.com
robert...@virgin.net (rob) wrote:
[snip tale of woe!]
> What is the correct (dare I
> say CORGI) manner in which to install a gas 15mm compression joint.
> compression joint or can the whole lot be fitted as per a normal
> 'water' plumbing compression - i.e. nowt?
Use the joints 'dry' and test carefully. There are specialist jointing
compounds available for gas fittings, but they are not worth buying for a
single joint.
--
Keith Mendum
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
John
keithm...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<73jmo6$d0$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <365c42e...@news.virgin.net>,
> robert...@virgin.net (rob) wrote:
>[snip tale of woe!]
>> What is the correct (dare I
>> say CORGI) manner in which to install a gas 15mm
compression joint.
>> Are you meant to use Boss white & hemp on the threads
of the
>> compression joint or can the whole lot be fitted as
per a normal
>> 'water' plumbing compression - i.e. nowt?
>
>
>Use the joints 'dry' and test carefully. There are
specialist jointing
>compounds available for gas fittings, but they are not
worth buying for a
>single joint.
>
>
1. For a start you do NOT put compound on the threads of
any compression joint - the seal is effected by the
olive mating onto the pipe and the tapered portions of
the fitting and the nut. All you achieve by applying
tape or compound to the threads is either making it
difficult to screw down or (when the compound has dried
out and set in the threads) almost impossible to remove.
If you make a compression joint with compound a smear
around the pipe and olive performs a lubricating
function and makes up any small imperfections in the
mating surfaces.
2. DIY gas work is never advisable but recognising that
there are a number of determined (and stubborn)
characters out there it is a legal requirement that you
are COMPETENT to do the work. This requires that if you
do open a gas pipe connection you MUST test the pipe for
soundness afterwards. Do you have the neccesssary test
equipment (a manometer and leak testing liquid) to do
so? The method of testing is laid down in British
Standards - if you don't know how then you ain't
competent full stop. In addition anyone who carries out
work on a gas appliance MUST ensure that suitable
ventilation is present to suit the appliance(s) and that
the products of combustion are being properly removed.
3. Compression fittings may ONLY be used on gas where
they remain ACCESSIBLE for maintenance afterwards thus
they are illegal to use under floors or in ducts, behing
fitted kitchen units etc.
4. Before the cretins come out of the woodwork with
stories of the lack of competence of the last CORGI
fitter they used let me update you on the current
registration situation.
CORGI initially was the Confederation of Registered Gas
Installers - virtually a mutual appreciation society or
trade organisation run by and on behalf of the various
members (chiefly British Gas). Following the Ronan Point
disaster the government got involved with gas safety and
after many years deliberation and study the Gas Safety
Installation and use Regulations were updated in 1984.
Further deliberation led to the 1994 Revisions which
laid the groundrules for the revamp of CORGI. The
confederation was disbanded but replaced by the COUNCIL
FOR REGISTERED GAS INSTALLERS thus keeping the same
Initials and retaining the publics visual concept of the
gas industry body. The new CORGI however has teeth. A
requirement for ALL gas installation staff to have
attended a five day APPROVED CODE OF PRACTICE (ACOPs)
sections 1 to 5 assessment (Note assessment NOT
training) course to demonstrate their knowledge and
competency of gas safety was introduced. This
effectively meant that anyone working on gas SHOULD know
what they are doing. Other ACOPS categories were
activated later and the scheme now requires that to
qualify for registration an installer MUST hold ACOPS 1
to 5 in basic gas safety PLUS a seperate assessment for
every type of equipment he/she wishes to work on. Thus
if an installer wishes to install a domestic gas fire or
a convector heater to burn natural gas he/she must hold
1-5 plus SPACE HEATING APPLIANCES. This does not give
qualification to work on cookers, boilers etc nor on
bottled gas (LPG) or on commercial installations all of
which require additional assessments to have been taken
and passed as competent. Most installers opted to take
assessments over the full range of domestic appliances
with a limited number taking assessments for LPG and an
even smaller number for all three to include
commercial/industrial systems.
This has effectively tightened up a lot of slack in
the system although it is obviously possible for some
less competent individuals to hide within a large
organisation. To further tighten the screws as of this
year the ACOPS scheme is being replaced with a new
Nationally ACCREDITED CERTIFICATION SCHEME in which
unlike the ACOPS courses all assessments are carried out
by independent staff who have not been involved with any
of an operatives training. All new entrants to the
industry must enter via this route now and when the
current ACOPS qualifications run out in the next five
years all existing operatives will be reassessed under
this new scheme. The scheme is overseen by CORGI under
the auspices of the Health and Safety Executive. I look
forward to next year when things will reveal the extent
of the improvements. Certainly the number of HSE
prosecutions for unregistered gas work is rising and the
public as a whole is becoming more aware of the need to
leave gas work to qualified professionals.
On a final note of caution CORGI registered
installers are now being required to report all
defective work which has immediately dangerous
implications to the HSE.
Hope this helps you to avoid problems and yes I
cheerfully admit to being in the trade!
--
Please note antispam measures - do not hit reply
Warning to Spammers - I ALWAYS complain to your ISP
Regards,
John
Matthew Marks
"John" <jj...@ASglobalnet.co.uk> writes:
<lengthy pro-CORGI rant snipped>
> Hope this helps you to avoid problems and yes I
> cheerfully admit to being in the trade!
And I cheerfully admit to having ignored most of it.
--
Matthew @rd.bbc.co.uk My opinions, not Auntie's
Richard Gethin
<mat...@rd.bbc.co.uk> writes
>In article <751aa5$obe$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>,
> "John" <jj...@ASglobalnet.co.uk> writes:
>
><lengthy pro-CORGI rant snipped>
>
>> cheerfully admit to being in the trade!
>
>
about diy gas fitting, I found the article about current assessment etc.
most interesting.
--
Richard Gethin
John
Matthew Marks wrote in message
<7533gg$jji$1...@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>...
>In article <751aa5$obe$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>,
> "John" <jj...@ASglobalnet.co.uk> writes:
>
><lengthy pro-CORGI rant snipped>
>
>> cheerfully admit to being in the trade!
>
>
>Matthew @rd.bbc.co.uk My opinions, not Auntie's
NOT a pro-CORGI rant my friend - it was a pro-safety
rant and I can only hope that other readers are less
ostrich like than you!
Steve Dawson
Matthew Marks wrote in message <7533gg$jji$1...@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>...
>In article <751aa5$obe$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>,
> "John" <jj...@ASglobalnet.co.uk> writes:
>
><lengthy pro-CORGI rant snipped>
>
>> cheerfully admit to being in the trade!
>
>
>--
>Matthew @rd.bbc.co.uk My opinions, not Auntie's
That just about sums you up, he was was not being Pro-Corgi, he was just
explaining the law.
Steve Dawson
Fox Electrical Services
my own opinions, if you don't like it, then lump it
Jon Rouse
<751aa5$obe$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
> 2. DIY gas work is never advisable but recognising that
> there are a number of determined (and stubborn)
> characters out there
Read 'people who don't like paying through the nose for shoddy work and
plumbers trying to make simple jobs into mysteries'
> it is a legal requirement that you
> are COMPETENT to do the work. This requires that if you
> do open a gas pipe connection you MUST test the pipe for
> soundness afterwards. Do you have the neccesssary test
> equipment (a manometer
There's one on every gad meter
> and leak testing liquid)
in the bottle by the sink
>to do
> so? The method of testing is laid down in British
> Standards - if you don't know how then you ain't
> competent full stop.
According to the manual with my gas boiler you turn on the gas and watch
the needle on the gas meter!
> In addition anyone who carries out
> work on a gas appliance MUST ensure that suitable
> ventilation is present to suit the appliance(s) and that
> the products of combustion are being properly removed.
Are the flames yellow or blue?
> 4. Before the cretins come out of the woodwork with
> stories of the lack of competence of the last CORGI
> fitter they used let me update you on the current
> registration situation.
Ad hominem attacks weaken your arguments. You obviously have a vested
interest. If you don't like people doing things themselves then stop
posting to a do-it-yourself group unless you're willing to be helpful.
[Plug for CORGI snipped]
> This
> effectively meant that anyone working on gas SHOULD know
> what they are doing.
Oh Ha!
[snip]
> This has effectively tightened up a lot of slack in
> the system although it is obviously possible for some
> less competent individuals to hide within a large
> organisation.
Well at least you acknowledge it!
> Hope this helps you to avoid problems and yes I
> cheerfully admit to being in the trade!
Well, I'd never have guessed!
Nigel Orr
wrote:
>> soundness afterwards. Do you have the neccesssary test
>> equipment (a manometer
>
>There's one on every gad meter
Can you elaborate? I'm definitely a gas 'newbie'...
Nigel
Please Check AntiSpam for email replies...
Douglas de Lacey
> ><lengthy pro-CORGI rant snipped>
> >
> >> Hope this helps you to avoid problems and yes I
> >> cheerfully admit to being in the trade!
> >
> >And I cheerfully admit to having ignored most of it.
> >
> >--
> >Matthew @rd.bbc.co.uk My opinions, not Auntie's
>
> That just about sums you up, he was was not being Pro-Corgi, he was just
> explaining the law.
Unfortunately he was doing both. I agree the description of the changes
in CORGI was helpful; but the description of d-i-y-ers was definitely
not. Like Matthew I skipped the article: only read it after I'd seen the
responses!
Douglas de Lacey.
Jon Rouse
<tglFaIAT...@rgethin.demon.co.uk>...
> Well that's a shame because while I, like you, don't have any qualms
> about diy gas fitting, I found the article about current assessment etc.
> most interesting.
Yeah me too. Its about time they cleaned up their act. Now all we need is
for them to have a pool to which they all contribute so that if one of them
screws up a qualified fitter will come and sort things out free of charge.
Jon Rouse
<7540ft$mbg$1...@news1.cableinet.co.uk>...
> he was was not being Pro-Corgi, he was just
> explaining the law.
Yeah, like turkeys vote for Christmas.
Matthew Marks
Richard Gethin <ric...@rgethin.demon.co.uk> writes:
> In article <7533gg$jji$1...@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>, Matthew Marks
> <mat...@rd.bbc.co.uk> writes
>>
>>
> about diy gas fitting, I found the article about current assessment etc.
> most interesting.
Why didn't he just tell us that, rather than putting us off with his scare
tactics then?
Matthew Marks
"Steve Dawson" <steve...@athene.co.uk> writes:
>
> That just about sums you up, he was was not being Pro-Corgi, he was just
> explaining the law.
Of course he was being pro-CORGI - any half-wit could work *that* out.
The law says that one is able to do one's own gas work if one is competent to
do so. This is a DIY group, so it all boils down to the meaning of that word,
which we can argue about until the cows come home.
John
Jon Rouse wrote in message
<01be2759$a6c1e490$5f585790@itmo15485>...
that
>> there are a number of determined (and stubborn)
>> characters out there
>
shoddy work and
>plumbers trying to make simple jobs into mysteries'
>
>> are COMPETENT to do the work. This requires that if
you
>> do open a gas pipe connection you MUST test the pipe
for
>> soundness afterwards. Do you have the neccesssary
test
>> equipment (a manometer
>
OH NO THERE ISN'T!! A manometer is a pressure testing
device not a volume measurement (which is what a gas
meter is)
The regulations specifically exclude the use of the
meter dials from being used to interpret soundness
because you will be unable to detect "small" losses. You
sir are a danger to yourself and anyone unlucky enough
to live within the blast radius of your house
>
>> and leak testing liquid)
>
>in the bottle by the sink
WRONG AGAIN! Washing up liquid contains chlorides etc
which can slowly corrode through some gas pipes
(Failures of the Meter flexy connection have been
recorded and proven to be caused by homemade bubble test
solutions)
>
>>to do
>> so? The method of testing is laid down in British
>> Standards - if you don't know how then you ain't
>> competent full stop.
>
>According to the manual with my gas boiler you turn on
the gas and watch
>the needle on the gas meter!
>
>
You apparently can't even read the instructions properly
or your manual is not for a boiler built for the UK
market. If I'm wrong please give details of the make and
model you are talking about
>> In addition anyone who carries out
>> work on a gas appliance MUST ensure that suitable
>> ventilation is present to suit the appliance(s) and
that
>> the products of combustion are being properly
removed.
>
>Are the flames yellow or blue?
>
>> 4. Before the cretins come out of the woodwork with
>> stories of the lack of competence of the last CORGI
>> fitter they used let me update you on the current
>> registration situation.
>
>Ad hominem attacks weaken your arguments. You obviously
have a vested
>interest. If you don't like people doing things
themselves then stop
>posting to a do-it-yourself group unless you're willing
to be helpful.
I consider it VERY helpful if at least one person is
made aware of the risks not just to himself but the
public around him if tragedy/explosion can be averted!
>
>[Plug for CORGI snipped]
Incorrect the plug was for safety!
>
>> This
>> effectively meant that anyone working on gas SHOULD
know
>> what they are doing.
>
>Oh Ha!
>
>[snip]
>
>> This has effectively tightened up a lot of slack
in
>> the system although it is obviously possible for some
>> less competent individuals to hide within a large
>> organisation.
>
>Well at least you acknowledge it!
>
>> Hope this helps you to avoid problems and yes I
>> cheerfully admit to being in the trade!
>
>Well, I'd never have guessed!
I refer you to your own comment above Ad hominem!
Jon Rouse
>
> OH NO THERE ISN'T!! A manometer is a pressure testing
> device not a volume measurement (which is what a gas
> meter is)
> The regulations specifically exclude the use of the
> meter dials from being used to interpret soundness
> because you will be unable to detect "small" losses.
That's what your nose is for.
> You
> sir are a danger to yourself and anyone unlucky enough
> to live within the blast radius of your house
And you sir are in danger of prosecution under the libel laws
> WRONG AGAIN! Washing up liquid contains chlorides etc
> which can slowly corrode through some gas pipes
> (Failures of the Meter flexy connection have been
> recorded and proven to be caused by homemade bubble test
> solutions)
So why has every CORGI fitter I have ever had the misfortune to employ used
this technique?
> You apparently can't even read the instructions properly
> or your manual is not for a boiler built for the UK
> market. If I'm wrong please give details of the make and
> model you are talking about
Glow worm Ultimate.
> I consider it VERY helpful if at least one person is
> made aware of the risks not just to himself but the
> public around him if tragedy/explosion can be averted!
I think all the poster here are aware of the risks from shoddy gas
installations, That's why we try to avoid CORGI registered firms and do the
work ourselves.
John
Jon Rouse wrote in message
>John <jj...@ASglobalnet.co.uk> wrote in article
><756dpk$b2g$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
>>
>> OH NO THERE ISN'T!! A manometer is a pressure testing
>> device not a volume measurement (which is what a gas
>> meter is)
>> The regulations specifically exclude the use of the
>> meter dials from being used to interpret soundness
>> because you will be unable to detect "small" losses.
>
>That's what your nose is for.
Dear oh dear - do you really believe that? - What do you
do when you have a cold or when you have been smelling
gas for a while and your nose has gone into olfactory
fatigue?
>
>> You
>> sir are a danger to yourself and anyone unlucky
enough
>> to live within the blast radius of your house
>
>And you sir are in danger of prosecution under the
libel laws
Nothing libellous in the truth!
SNIP
>
>> WRONG AGAIN! Washing up liquid contains chlorides etc
>> which can slowly corrode through some gas pipes
>> (Failures of the Meter flexy connection have been
>> recorded and proven to be caused by homemade bubble
test
>> solutions)
>
>So why has every CORGI fitter I have ever had the
misfortune to employ used
>this technique?
How is it you only seem to have ever employed fitters of
such dubious ability? Are you perhaps making the mistake
of regarding anyone who purports to work in the gas
industry as being a qualified, registered gas fitter?
I hope you have not based your proffessed expertise on
what you have watched these incompetents do.
I have not come across these soap/washing up liquid
merchants for some years now and can honestly say that
all the operatives I have seen working since the CORGI
revamp ACOPS certificates always use commercially
produced leak detect
solutions which are tested as safe for use on currently
used gas pipe materials
>
SNIP
>> You apparently can't even read the instructions
properly
>> or your manual is not for a boiler built for the UK
>> market. If I'm wrong please give details of the make
and
>> model you are talking about
>
>Glow worm Ultimate.
I haven't got a copy of the Installation and Service
leaflet for the Ultimate but I'll quote the pertinent
section from the Glow Worm Fuelsaver FF hereunder. Glow
Worm are unlikely to proffer wrong advice on a different
UK model
1.8 Gas Supply
The gas supply must be in accordance with the current
issue of BS6891
On completion test the gas installation for Soundness
using the pressure drop method and leak detection fluid
and purge it in accordance with the above standard.
The supply from the governed meter must be of adequate
size to provide a steady inlet working pressure of 20mb
(8" WG) at the boiler
To expand on this before you rush back into print with
yet more misconceptions.
The pressure drop method refers to the use of a
manometer as described in a post yesterday from me "GAS
SAFETY". The
leak detect fluid is to test the test point afterwards
and/or to trace any leak discovered by the pressure test
>
>> I consider it VERY helpful if at least one person is
>> made aware of the risks not just to himself but the
>> public around him if tragedy/explosion can be
averted!
>
>I think all the poster here are aware of the risks from
shoddy gas
>installations, That's why we try to avoid CORGI
registered firms and do the
>work ourselves.
>
In my opinion you are either deliberately trying to
promote the spread of false information or you are just
ignorant. In either case there seems little point in
prolonging this debate. If anyone else asks for
particular information which I can safely give an answer
to I shall endeavour to assist, however the remarks and
opinions proffered by you are misleading or just plain
wrong. As such I think you are a danger to yourself,
anyone misguided enough to follow your example, and as I
said before, anyone living within your blast radius.
To use the vernacular you will never be a safe gas
fitter as
long as you have a hole in your fundament!
Stuart Grant
which can slowly corrode through some gas pipes >>
Are you seriously expecting us to believe that a drop of Fairy Liquid in
a spray bottle of water sprayed once on to a joint to test for leaks is
going to remain actively corrosive long enough to eat through a gas
pipe?
Stuart Grant
John
Stuart Grant wrote in message ...
I am not asking you to believe anything, simply
reporting industry published knowledge!
Failure of the flexy pipes HAS occurred and is
attributed to the reasons stated.
Jon Rouse
> Are you seriously expecting us to believe that a drop of Fairy Liquid in
> a spray bottle of water sprayed once on to a joint to test for leaks is
> going to remain actively corrosive long enough to eat through a gas
> pipe?
Certainly a great deal less corrosive than the flux which our CORGI plumber
left on all the joints. (I've never worked out how you remove the flux from
inside the pipes - in a water pipe it slowly gets washed away, but
presumably in a gas pipe it just stays there and eats its way out?).
Derek Uttley
>
> Stuart Grant <s...@mcmail.com> wrote in article <VA.0000010c.0002a60b@one>...
>
> > Are you seriously expecting us to believe that a drop of Fairy Liquid in
> > a spray bottle of water sprayed once on to a joint to test for leaks is
> > going to remain actively corrosive long enough to eat through a gas
> > pipe?
Not iron pipe certainly, but flexible gas pipe contains synthetic materials
that may well be affected by detergents.
> Certainly a great deal less corrosive than the flux which our CORGI plumber
> left on all the joints. (I've never worked out how you remove the flux from
> inside the pipes
*You* don't have to work out how to remove the flux!!! This statement is
totally irrelevant to the topic. I've been lurking on this thread for some
time and find the attitude of the "anti Corgi" group to be totally bl**dy
minded (one lame excuse after the other to try to explain away the need to
employ a Corgi certified fitter). If you assume that you can do it
yourself, then go ahead, but abide by the proven rules when it comes to
methodology. At least then you can say that you have done it
yourself...properly. Always respect the knowledge of those who are gas
fitters by trade, even though you may have a general dim view of them. They
have done more gas fitting than you as a DIY'er can ever lay claim to. I'm
not a gas fitter, but would readily install gas pipes etc tomorrow.
However, I would insist on having the final inspection and connection
performed by the appropriate expert and have the consequences of a faulty
installation lay on the shoulders of others rather than myself. Gas leaks
are deadly after all!
- in a water pipe it slowly gets washed away, but
> presumably in a gas pipe it just stays there and eats its way out?).
If you believe that then I don't know what to think of you!!
D.
--
Rick Hughes
clear PVC tubing fixed with pipe clips to a piece of 4" x 1"
Fill it to a suitable depth with water - connect one end to the gas
valve - pressure forces water 'up the bend'.
My boiler gave full details of required 'cm of water level and length of
time for which there should be no drop'
Second time my friendly Zenith Plumb point trade counter lent me a
manometer over night for no charge.
Rick
John wrote:
>
> Jon Rouse wrote in message
Rick Hughes
kitchens !
If a diluted solution put on a joint during installation or maintenance
can cause failure, just think what several splashes from the kitchen
sink could cause.
I have also only ever seen Gas fitters use fairy liquid - and yes these
are CORGI registered gentlemen.
Rick
David Pearson
>>> - in a water pipe it slowly gets washed away, but
>>> presumably in a gas pipe it just stays there and eats its way out?).
>If you believe that then I don't know what to think of you!!
I find it difficult to understand why someone would post something like this.
If you are such a fount of knowledge on the subject the please elaborate - I
have always used a corrosive flux on water pipes (where it will be washed
away) but have considered its use on gas fittings to be somewhat less than a
Good Thing [tm] although I have doubts that it will in fact 'eat its way out'.
Am I wasting my time preparing and using non-corrosive flux for gas fittings?
Dave
Andy Dingley
>>
>>in the bottle by the sink
>which can slowly corrode through some gas pipes
Care to comment on the following ?
CORGI fitter replaces gas pipe to boiler, using end-fed soldered
connections. While each joint is still hot he deliberately sprays each
one with leak testing aerosol, presumably to cool it down more
quickly. On completion he did test with a manometer. A week later the
joints are green with verdrigris.
Is this a good practice ? A really bad one ? One we should all use?
--
Smert' Spamionem
Chris French
<jj...@ASglobalnet.co.uk> writes
>
>Jon Rouse wrote in message
>>John <jj...@ASglobalnet.co.uk> wrote in article
>><756dpk$b2g$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
>>>
>>> device not a volume measurement (which is what a gas
>>> meter is)
>>> meter dials from being used to interpret soundness
>>> because you will be unable to detect "small" losses.
>>
>>That's what your nose is for.
>
>Dear oh dear - do you really believe that? - What do you
>do when you have a cold or when you have been smelling
>gas for a while and your nose has gone into olfactory
>fatigue?
>
While the nose can detect gas at quite low concentrations (or rather the
smell they add to it). It isn't really suitable for checking joints for
leaks.
I have successfully used the washing up liquid technique to find very
small leaks on a threaded union joint. My nose thought it could smell
something but it wasn't sure.
Again with using a manometer, It will pick up leaks that using the meter
to measure via gas flow would be difficult - if not impossible (well I
suppose if you wait long enough..). If all you want to do is check for
leaks rather than measure actual pressures then a home-made one would
suffice.
<snip>
>>
>>> WRONG AGAIN! Washing up liquid contains chlorides etc
>>> which can slowly corrode through some gas pipes
>>> (Failures of the Meter flexy connection have been
>>> recorded and proven to be caused by homemade bubble
>test
>>> solutions)
I take it the solutions were washing -up liquid?
While sceptical here, if that what was quoted about the flexible meter
connection was true it leaves two points:
I am somewhat worried in that case that such a vulnerable material is
used for such an important connection.
The other pipes (likely to be copper with soldered or threaded
connections) are not going to be affected by the washing-up liquid.
>>So why has every CORGI fitter I have ever had the
>misfortune to employ used
>>this technique?
>
>How is it you only seem to have ever employed fitters of
>such dubious ability? Are you perhaps making the mistake
>of regarding anyone who purports to work in the gas
>industry as being a qualified, registered gas fitter?
>I hope you have not based your proffessed expertise on
>what you have watched these incompetents do.
Surely one of the reasons that gas/CORGI etc. is such a debated topic
here is that under the old? rules you could be under the impression that
the incompetent doing the work was supposedly trained when they weren't.
>>
>SNIP
>
>>> You apparently can't even read the instructions
>properly
>>> or your manual is not for a boiler built for the UK
>>> market. If I'm wrong please give details of the make
>and
>>> model you are talking about
>>
>>Glow worm Ultimate.
>
>I haven't got a copy of the Installation and Service
>leaflet for the Ultimate but I'll quote the pertinent
>section from the Glow Worm Fuelsaver FF hereunder. Glow
>Worm are unlikely to proffer wrong advice on a different
>UK model
>
Maybe be they did put the advice in a previous version of the manual?
Snip - advice similar to that in the manual for our new Ravenheat boiler
>>
>>> I consider it VERY helpful if at least one person is
>>> made aware of the risks not just to himself but the
>>> public around him if tragedy/explosion can be
>averted!
>>
>>I think all the poster here are aware of the risks from
>shoddy gas
>>installations, That's why we try to avoid CORGI
>registered firms and do the
>>work ourselves.
>>
Not all of the posters Jon, plenty of people have posted here saying
that they didn't want to do their own gas work.
>In my opinion you are either deliberately trying to
>promote the spread of false information or you are just
>ignorant. In either case there seems little point in
>prolonging this debate.
snip
You seem to have got yourself into the same situation as other
'professionals' have on this group. Dire warnings of woe tend not to go
down to well - it's a diy group, and trying to tell people not to do
things isn't a good idea. Good, useful advice and info (as you have
given), properly presented is always welcome (though not always
accepted.....). But your original post, while having plenty of useful
info, also came across as a bit of a pro-CORGI rant. which we have had
plenty of before - I didn't even fully read it the first time.
But people will be sceptical, there have been occasions when people have
made stupid/inaccurate claims, which they tried to back up with their
'pro' experience - they went away with quite a few fleas in their ears.
People here have high standards of their own workmanship, and can be
quite critical of the work of (even competent) 'pros'. We've also
experienced plenty of crap work by these 'pros', so can be a little
circumspect.
Anyway, back to more useful topics:
What does BS6891 have to say then on the topic of leaking testing and
purging?
sometime later.....
Ahhh, I just got to the other thread....
--
Chris French, Leeds
Email address valid for at least two weeks from posting
John
Andy Dingley wrote in message
<367d7009....@news.demon.co.uk>...
>>>> and leak testing liquid)
>>>
>>>in the bottle by the sink
>>which can slowly corrode through some gas pipes
>
>
>
>
>CORGI fitter replaces gas pipe to boiler, using end-fed
soldered
>connections. While each joint is still hot he
deliberately sprays each
>one with leak testing aerosol, presumably to cool it
down more
>quickly. On completion he did test with a manometer. A
week later the
>joints are green with verdrigris.
>
>Is this a good practice ? A really bad one ? One we
should all use?
>
1. Its an expensive way of cooling joints, presumably he
was not self employed or he would have been more
prudent.
2. The corrosion is unlikely to be caused by the leak
detect spray but more likely the flux he used.
Incidentally fluxes should be used sparingly and in the
case of self cleaning fluxes only those which are active
when hot should be employed.
3. Wiping down/drying off with a clean cloth/paper towel
would have been desirable.
4. Did you think to wipe/wash off the pipes during your
housekeeping exercises?
Stuart Grant
> presumably in a gas pipe it just stays there and eats its way out? >>
Corrosives exhaust their action, it does not continue ad infinitum. Say
a squirt of soapy water contained 0.1 mg of a corrosive substance. That
would re-act with copper pipe to convert say 0.05mg of copper to copper
sulphate or whatever, so that other substances would be formed, which
were non or less corrosive, and the reaction would then become
stable, having affected less than a pinhead of metal from the gas pipe.
Same would apply to flux inside a pipe. You'd need a continuous
drip-feed of corrosive to eat a hole.
Stuart
Matthew Marks
Derek Uttley <dut...@newbridge.com> writes:
> Jon Rouse wrote:
>
>> - in a water pipe it slowly gets washed away, but
>> presumably in a gas pipe it just stays there and eats its way out?).
>
> If you believe that then I don't know what to think of you!!
Well you can think the same of me, because I believe it (or find it very
plausible). Corrosive flux left on the outside of pipes produces green
gunge which is obviously copper-based. I have heard related here how
heating systems have failed quickly due to the primary circuits not being
properly flushed of corrosive flux. You are not supposed to use corrosive
flux on gas pipes.
People are getting upset about the "anti-CORGI lobby". This is simply because
of many posts on and off from people who are obviously more interested in
their livelyhood than of safety (and remember that this is a DIY group), and
their ignorant quotings from regulations are in insult to the intelligence of
some of the experts here. These sort of regulations will always be designed to
be ultra-cautious and have to ensure that everyone that abides by them will
create a safe installation - often people who are not particularly intelligent
and cannot be relied upon to apply common sense, and, in addition, have jumpy
insurers worried about the possibility of them having to fight, let alone pay
out, a claim. On the other hand, some of the things the regs cover are
relevant and important.
I do believe that "John" is not here just to peddle his profession, and should
be treated with respect as a result, even if he got off on a slightly wrong
foot. Maybe he didn't, and I and others were just over-reacting, but I hope
he can at least begin to understand the frosty reception he got. So I think
it's time the accusations stopped flying, and we can take advantage of his
knowledge in this field, which he does seem to be prepared to share with us.
So: did you see my earlier question about 15mm supplies to a combi, John?
Would they just have plumbed it in, done a pressure drop test and found that
it was within limits? Seems a bit risky from the point of view of possible
re-plumbing.
Nigel Orr
wrote:
>4. Did you think to wipe/wash off the pipes during your
>housekeeping exercises?
ROTFL...
<Mental note> Next time I'm under the floorboards, must remember to
polish the pipes ;-)
Jon Rouse
<367d7009....@news.demon.co.uk>...
> CORGI fitter replaces gas pipe to boiler, using end-fed soldered
> connections. While each joint is still hot he deliberately sprays each
> one with leak testing aerosol, presumably to cool it down more
> quickly. On completion he did test with a manometer. A week later the
> joints are green with verdrigris.
Well certainly with electrical soldering rapid cooling can lead to
crystallisation and weak joints.
Derek Uttley
> away) but have considered its use on gas fittings to be somewhat less >than a
> Good Thing [tm] although I have doubts that it will in fact 'eat its >way out'. ^^^^^^^^^^^^
That is exactly the point I was getting at. If you "..have doubts" don't
throw misleading information into the ring for others to pounce on. The
hounding of Corgis (excuse the pun) seems to be based on "doubtful" excuses
as to why they should not be employed.
Saying that flux (acid or otherwise) will eat its way through gas pipes is
not being responsible. Do we have hundreds of installations failing as a
result of acid flux? If that is the case then I appologise.
> Am I wasting my time preparing and using non-corrosive flux for gas >fittings?
Why not use compression or gas thread screw fittings with the appropriate
thread sealant?
>
> Dave
--
Derek Uttley, CET
Asia Pacific and Latin America
Network Approvals
Newbridge Networks Corporation
Tel : (613)-599-3600 Ext. 3184
Fax : (613)-599-2901
Derek Uttley
>
> >>> and leak testing liquid)
> >>
> >>in the bottle by the sink
> >WRONG AGAIN! Washing up liquid contains chlorides etc
> >which can slowly corrode through some gas pipes
>
> Care to comment on the following ?
>
> connections. While each joint is still hot he deliberately sprays each
> one with leak testing aerosol, presumably to cool it down more
> quickly. On completion he did test with a manometer. A week later the
> joints are green with verdrigris.
>
>
> Smert' Spamionem
--
The verdigris is more likely to be caused by the remnants of soldering flux
on the pipe. Nothing to be concerned about and not at all unusual. Even a
non Corgi gas fitter would have the same result!
Derek Uttley
>
> In article <36790CA2...@newbridge.com>,
> Derek Uttley <dut...@newbridge.com> writes:
> > Jon Rouse wrote:
> >
> >> - in a water pipe it slowly gets washed away, but
> >> presumably in a gas pipe it just stays there and eats its way out?).
> >
> > If you believe that then I don't know what to think of you!!
>
> Well you can think the same of me, because I believe it (or find it very
> plausible). Corrosive flux left on the outside of pipes produces green
> gunge which is obviously copper-based. I have heard related here how
> heating systems have failed quickly due to the primary circuits not being
> properly flushed of corrosive flux. You are not supposed to use corrosive
> flux on gas pipes.
>
loses its ability to react with metal. But, of course, it does lose its
potency once it has reacted with some metal, and will very soon be quite
inert. The verdigris seen on some joints is the result of this reaction
with metal. If the regulations state that corrosive fluxes must not be used
on gas fittings then the DIY community should abide by the regulations,
regardless as to what Corgi types have been alleged to use. In my opinion,
it would take more flux than one would use on all the joints in a typical
installation to cause any corrosion problems. Incidentally, is there, or
was there ever, a requirement to "flush" flux from inside gas pipes? How
would it have been done?
D.
David Pearson
I wrote:
>> Am I wasting my time preparing and using non-corrosive flux for gas
>> fittings?
Derek replied:
>Why not use compression or gas thread screw fittings with the appropriate
>thread sealant?
Because soldering is cheaper and neater :-)
Dave
Wookey
<URL:mailto:de...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> Steve Dawson wrote:
> > That just about sums you up, he was was not being Pro-Corgi, he was just
> > explaining the law.
>
> Unfortunately he was doing both. I agree the description of the changes
> in CORGI was helpful; but the description of d-i-y-ers was definitely
> not. Like Matthew I skipped the article: only read it after I'd seen the
> responses!
Indeed. It was useful info couched in rather disagreeable terms (at least on
the NG). I read it all, 'cos I'm a mug like that, but I disagree with the
sentiment that all DIYers are incompetent. Some of them are, but that has
equally been true of professiojals for a long time, even if his claims that
things are improving are true.
Wookey
--
Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel (00 44) 1223 811679
work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/
Wookey
<URL:mailto:news...@spennithorne.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[some very sensible stuff]
John (gasman) wrote:
> <snip>
> >>
> >>> WRONG AGAIN! Washing up liquid contains chlorides etc
> >>> which can slowly corrode through some gas pipes
> >>> (Failures of the Meter flexy connection have been
> >>> recorded and proven to be caused by homemade bubble
> >test
> >>> solutions)
>
> I take it the solutions were washing -up liquid?
>
> While sceptical here, if that what was quoted about the flexible meter
> connection was true it leaves two points:
>
> I am somewhat worried in that case that such a vulnerable material is
> used for such an important connection.
>
> The other pipes (likely to be copper with soldered or threaded
> connections) are not going to be affected by the washing-up liquid.
It seems to me that this discussion is somewhat academic. A spray-can of the
proper stuff costs all of GBP3-4, so if you are doing anything worth
mentionning then just buy one. It works really well! I suppose if you are
just doing one connection then using soap solution makes sense, and it
certainly a lot better than not testing it at all!
John
Nigel Orr wrote in message
<367a2710....@news.ncl.ac.uk>...
>On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:40:40 -0000, "John"
<jj...@ASglobalnet.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>4. Did you think to wipe/wash off the pipes during
your
>>housekeeping exercises?
>
>ROTFL...
>
><Mental note> Next time I'm under the floorboards, must
remember to
>polish the pipes ;-)
>
John
Derek Uttley wrote in message
<367A60D5...@newbridge.com>...
>David Pearson wrote:
>
>> away) but have considered its use on gas fittings to
be somewhat less >than a
>> Good Thing [tm] although I have doubts that it will
in fact 'eat its >way out'.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>That is exactly the point I was getting at. If you
"..have doubts" don't
>throw misleading information into the ring for others
to pounce on. The
>hounding of Corgis (excuse the pun) seems to be based
on "doubtful" excuses
>as to why they should not be employed.
>Saying that flux (acid or otherwise) will eat its way
through gas pipes is
>not being responsible. Do we have hundreds of
installations failing as a
>result of acid flux? If that is the case then I
appologise.
>
non-corrosive flux for gas >fittings?
>
with the appropriate
>thread sealant?
>>
Let me say straight away that there is no objection to
using compression joints or unions in gas pipes PROVIDED
they remain readily accessible for maintenance. This
excludes under floors, behind fitted kitchen units and
the like, also the use of appropriate thread seal
requires some definition here. PTFE tape is available as
the standard thin tape for water pipes and as a much
thicker tape for use with gas fittings (sometimes known
as "one wrap") The water pipe tape should not be used on
gas fittings. The two are readily identifiable by touch
and the gas tape usually is on a coloured or marked
reel.
ROCOL and others produce a non setting thread seal
compound for use on gas threads which is highly
effective and being non setting does not dry out, shrink
and crack after some years which some other pipe-thread
seal compounds have been known to do leading to leakage.
Gas threads should be "good" so that compound alone is
adequate to give a gas tight joint. Hemp etc is not to
be used to supplement a poor thread
The leak detect/washing up liquid saga started when I
quoted a report which said that the flexible pipes used
to connect to meter governors had been known to fail
when contaminated by the Chlorides in the detergent. I
should perhaps make it clearer that the report was only
about failures of the flexy pipes which are quite thin
otherwise they would not be flexible. The practicalities
of the real world for other pipes are not so stringent
but if you use leak detect fluid it may as well be
universally safe for all applications.
Non corrosive fluxes are always useful but the use of
self cleaning fluxes is accepted provided that they are
used sensibly ie sparingly and only those types which
are active while being heated should be used. In one of
my posts I illustrated a problem which I have come
across more than once where copious application of non
corrosive flux has left sufficient within the pipes for
it to migrate down vertical sections to collect at the
bottom and restrict the passage of gas. Again common
sense is the secret but how many of us know someone who
was at the back of the que when it was being given
out???
John
Matthew Marks wrote in message
<75d8k1$7ci$1...@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>...
SNIP
>So: did you see my earlier question about 15mm supplies
to a combi, John?
>Would they just have plumbed it in, done a pressure
drop test and found that
>it was within limits? Seems a bit risky from the point
of view of possible
>re-plumbing.
>
I think I've replied to the question Mathew and given
some details about pipesizing too if I'm thinking of the
right post. If not please start another thread and I'll
see what I can do. There are too many people who bung
these things in on the end of the first available bit of
gas pipe. Do a soundness test and a flue products
clearance check. Blame the poor performance on "all
Combis are like that and swan off down the road.
Let me say that I personally dislike Combis although
they do provide me with a goodly portion of my income
when they break down, which as I live in a very hard
water area is after about three years running. All parts
for Combis seem to be about three times the price of
similar bits for a standard boiler and when they stop
you have neither heat nor hot water. I have on more than
one occasion cut a customers losses and reinstated a
conventional boiler with a hot water cylinder system
(with an immersion heater as an emergency backup).
Most combis seem to be designed on raising water
temperature to a satisfactory level at a flow rate of 9
litres a minute or if you like a 2 gallon plastic
bucketful. Some can do more but if yours does less I'd
be looking for a reason why, such as an inadequate gas
supply.
Even at 9 litres a minute it takes an age to fill a bath
and a lot of the things go through a complete cold
startup cycle every time the flow is interrupted for
even a moment so a lot of water can be wasted
inadvertently
People ring up and ask me to fit them a Combi and seem
quite surprised when my response is usually "WHY?" After
I've gone through the drawbacks of most combis they
usually say but my mates got one and he says its great,
to which my response is yes but if you spent a packet on
taking out your cylinder and tanks and putting a combi
in would you admit to your mates that it was a mistake?
That usually gives them food for thought. If they still
want a combi after that we talk business but most opt
for a Y plan system.
Just my pet soapbox theme
John
Wookey wrote in message ...
>In article <367669...@cam.ac.uk>, Douglas de Lacey
><URL:mailto:de...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Steve Dawson wrote:
>
>> > That just about sums you up, he was was not being
Pro-Corgi, he was just
>> > explaining the law.
>>
>> Unfortunately he was doing both. I agree the
description of the changes
>> in CORGI was helpful; but the description of
d-i-y-ers was definitely
>> not.
Did I make a GENERALISATION of DIYers? I thought I
criticised particular ones who had already proffered
wrong info to the readers! I'll re-read my posts.
>> Like Matthew I skipped the article: only read it
after I'd seen the
>> responses!
>
Once again I am not particularly pro CORGI its the HSE
who decided that the ONLY class of persons they would
recognise as competent to carry out work on gas was
those who were registered with CORGI.
If there were other "Recognised Bodies" it would in my
personal estimation be advantageous in that there would
be an element of competition and the ever increasing
annual subscription costs to CORGI would have something
to induce limitation
>Indeed. It was useful info couched in rather
disagreeable terms (at least on
>the NG). I read it all, 'cos I'm a mug like that, but I
disagree with the
>sentiment that all DIYers are incompetent. Some of them
are, but that has
>equally been true of professionals for a long time,
even if his claims that
>things are improving are true.
Ah for a perfect world?
There are some very diligent and careful DIYers who do
the very best they can when carrying out a project. Some
of the DIY installations are a delight to behold whilst
some of the professional are an abortion as you
indicate. However where the DIY projects often fail in
gas work is because the detail of the regulations is not
known. If a DIYer installs a Combi boiler (this is
probably the most common project that can be identified)
and then moves house the next occupant may have trouble
or even a routine service by a registered gas fitter.
The (any?) defects revealed then become evident. Recent
rule changes require that the registered gas fitter
takes action under the RIDDOR procedures. If he chooses
to ignore what he finds the next registered gas fitter
to visit will probably notice the defects and "do his
Duty" thus fitter no 1 falls foul of the rules, his
competence is prejudiced and he MAY lose his
registration and livelihood. The proceedures require an
assessment of the level of risk into sub-standard, at
risk, and immediately dangerous classes.
Sub standard requires that the consumer be advised of
the defect and reccomendation given that the defect be
remedied but no further action beyond giving a written
notice is required of the gas fitter.
An AT Risk appliance/installation is one which if
operated may lead to a situation which could create risk
to life or property. Where possible the gas fitter
should rectify the defest or make the
appliance/installation safe. If this is not possible the
appliance should have a warning notice attached a CORGI
warning notice should be issued and the appliance/supply
be turned off.
An Immediately Dangerous installation/appliance is one
which if operated or left connected to a gas supply is
an immediate danger to life or property. Broadly these
will be installations which fail soundness tests,
appliances that fail spillage tests, or appliances that
have serious flueing and/or ventilation defects when
measured agauinst manufactirers instructions or BS5440
parts 1 & 2 These should be labelled and disconnected
and sealed off from the supply. A warning notice should
be issued and a responsible persons signature obtained
Typical defects to be found in DIY work include but are
not limited to the following
1. Balanced flue/fan flue boilers installed in cupboards
or compartments - no compartment ventilation or
inadequate ventilation
2. Boiler gas supply pipes undersized and the
permissible 1mb pressure drop from meter to appliance
cannot be achieved
3. Conventional flue boilers not provided with adequate
ventilation for combustion air.
4. Gas fires particulary Living flame DFEs not provided
with ventilation where required (Early DFEs had to have
a 100cm2 fresh air ventilator to outside air, This
requirement is relaxed ONLY when the manufactiurers
literature specifies a lesser ventilation requirement.
Back boilers and fires ALWAYS need a ventilator
5. Gas cookers and hobs not installed with sufficient
clearance to combustible materials eg fitted kitchen
units
6. Appliances of all descriptions not installed with
isolation/servicing valves
7. Gas fires installed to "letter box slots" in bricked
up fireplace openings
8. Gas fires installed with insufficient debris
catchment space behind closure plates
9. Unsuitable materials used for flue pipes and
inadequate clearances from flues to combustible material
10. Gas pipes not enclosed in sleeves where they pass
through walls or stuctures
11. Gas pipes not protected against corrosion
12. Gas pipes clipped to outside walls with unsuitable
clips (use of stand off clips is required to prevent
leaves/debris being trapped and retaining water etc
leading to corrosion)
13. Gas pipes not Earth bonded
14. Gas cookers not fitted with stability devices
(chains or brackets)
Of course these acts and omissions can and do also
happen with
some professionals but use this list and any other info
you glean here to insist that if you do employ someone
to do your gas work its done right. Conversely if you do
your own you should also do it right.
Tim Dean
local corgi bod to have a look to check for problems.
It is a bit like house electrics.You compleat an instlation then you get
someone to check the work out.
Afterall isnt it something like 10% on technical work and the other time is
spemt on non cfaft items like fixings running cables/pipes repairing the
fabric of the building.
Tim
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Colin Eathorne
I must admit that I've only recently returned to the group after an
absence of a few weeks ....
However, I must say that as far as I can see you are only quoting common
sense - it may admittedly be by the book, but I feel that your input is
being 'tested by fire' (no pun intended!)
Rather than annoy John, shouldn't we be encouraging him to advise and
point out the errors of our ways? As far as I can make out most posts to
date have been rather abrasive and anti-Corgi.
I find this self-defeating and also silly. If you discovered a good
reference book on how to defuse a bomb, you wouldn't disregard it
because it was too 'regulation' - you'd probably refer to it first
should you ever have to defuse a bomb.
Anyway, I'm a newbie here - I've never met John in my life and never
talked via Email or any other form of communication. I just feel that he
is being unfairly treated here on grounds of a couple of posts.
Flame me if you disagree - otherwise tell me that you knew the Corgi
regs before reading his posts.
Colin
Colin Eathorne
DIY public (amongst other things!)
NO THIS IS NOT A SPAM !!
It constantly amazes me the number of DIY 'numpties' who try to purchase gas
fittings.
The only gas fittings we sell are hob connectors (the bayonet type) , but we
regularly get asked if a standard compression fitting is suitable for gas -
most of these people have never made a water compression fitting in their
lives !
With water you get a leak which might make the carpet a bit soggy - with
gas, the implications are slightly more severe (i.e. read possible death)
Give John a break - he might be by the book , but he also may save your
boiler being condemmed by the next plumber.
Colin
T1MDownie
In article <75egka$kef$2...@newnews.global.net.uk>, "John"
<jj...@ASglobalnet.co.uk> writes:
>Let me say straight away that there is no objection to
>using compression joints or unions in gas pipes PROVIDED
>they remain readily accessible for maintenance. This
>excludes under floors, behind fitted kitchen units and
>the like, also the use of appropriate thread seal
>requires some definition here. PTFE tape is available as
>the standard thin tape for water pipes and as a much
>thicker tape for use with gas fittings (sometimes known
>as "one wrap") The water pipe tape should not be used on
>gas fittings.
Hmm.... this brings us back to the question of just what makes the seal in a
compression joint. I, and I suspect many others, believe that the gas/fluid
seal is formed by the olive on its seat and that the threads (in a correctly
made joint) should play no part in forming the gas/fluid seal (other than
providing the compression force required to make the seal). In fact, I'd go so
far as to say that use of thread sealing compounds shouldn't be required if
you've made the joint correctly. Using thread sealants smacks of being at
best, a belt and braces approach, at worst, a bodge.
Care to comment?
TD
Peter Jones
I'm bound to say that I've found the tone of some posts to this and other
threads decidedly unhelpful. I for one am glad to hear John's professional
input, so thanks John for what you have said.
Regards and seasons greetings
Peter Jones
Colin Eathorne wrote
<snip>
John
T1MDownie wrote in message
<19981218191645...@ngol08.aol.com>...
the message. Let me clarify that there were two seperate
points of discussion covered here
1. the use of compression joints and the permitted
places thereof for gas work.
2. the use of thread seal on screwed joints NOT the
threads of compression fittings. As you quite rightly
say the threads of a compression joint should play NO
part in making the seal save providing the mechanical
force to deform the olive onto the surface of the pipe.
The SPARING use of a little thread seal compound (or of
a smear of grease ) to act as a lubricant to assist the
slide of the olive past the compression cone is useful
and can sometimes SUPPLEMENT the seal but is not
intended to act as a substitute
Hope this clears up the misunderstanding
Chris French
<Colin_E...@Mica-Hardware.co.uk> writes
>
>It constantly amazes me the number of DIY 'numpties' who try to purchase gas
>fittings.
>
>The only gas fittings we sell are hob connectors (the bayonet type)
Am I right in thinking that connecting and disconnecting counts as gas
work?
Ron Dixon in Brookside got down for connecting a gas cooker in his flat
with a dodgy one of these and blowing up the shops - or was that
artistic licence?
--
Happy xmas,
Andy Dingley
wrote:
>2. The corrosion is unlikely to be caused by the leak
>detect spray but more likely the flux he used.
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear enough here. The verdigris is
obviously due to flux residues, but:
- Is rapid cooling with any aerosol a good idea ?
- Isn't it a bit shoddy to leave enough flux residues behind to cause
corosion ?
>4. Did you think to wipe/wash off the pipes during your
>housekeeping exercises?
No, I polish them with a garryflex block, then lacquer. It avoids the
need to continually repolish. Underfloor pipes are lagged with foam,
mainly to stop me banging my head on them when I'm in the cellar.
Andy Dingley
wrote:
>6. Appliances of all descriptions not installed with
>isolation/servicing valves
What is the status of these things ?
We recently had two of them removed (by a CORGI fitter); one for a
fire that was being entirely removed and one for a new cooker that was
now fitted with a self-sealing bayonet fitting. The fitter explained
that the old 1/4 turn plug cocks were now looked down on, as prone to
leakage.
--
Smert' Spamionem
John
Andy Dingley wrote in message
>>isolation/servicing valves
>
>
>We recently had two of them removed (by a CORGI
fitter); one for a
>fire that was being entirely removed and one for a new
cooker that was
>now fitted with a self-sealing bayonet fitting. The
fitter explained
>that the old 1/4 turn plug cocks were now looked down
on, as prone to
>leakage.
>
Basically the self sealing bayonet is accepted as a
satisfactory termination to a live gas pipe when the
cooker is unplugged. Things like gas taps are generally
not considered suitable to be left unless plugged or
capped when left. I suppose the logic is that children
can (and in schools often do hence the master zone shut
off under the teachers control) play with gas taps and
can easily open them and leave them in a position to
pass gas into the atmosphere where an explosive
accumulation can build up. Whilst it is entirely
possible to cause a bayonet fitting to open by
interfering with it with a spike etc such an act would
generall require deliberate (possibly prosecutable)
action whereas a gas tap could be knocked and become
partly open accidentally.
CORGI registered installers must properly cap off or
plug any gas point even after such a valve/tap before
leaving it unattended using a suitable fitting
Incidentally Gas safety (installation and use )
Regulation 26.6 states
"No person shall install a gas appliance without there
being at the inlet to it means of shutting off the
supply of gas to the appliance unless the provision of
such means is not reasonably practicable"
The HSE and the courts would take a LOT of satisfying
before they would accept any argument about the
reasonably practicable exception! I can't think of an
argument which would satisfy them.
Matthew Marks
t1md...@aol.com (T1MDownie) writes:
> Hmm.... this brings us back to the question of just what makes the seal in a
> compression joint.
Methinks he might have been confusing compression fittings with threaded
joints (as used on gas barrel).
Matthew Marks
Colin Eathorne <Colin_E...@Mica-Hardware.co.uk> writes:
> It constantly amazes me the number of DIY 'numpties' who try to purchase gas
> fittings.
And it constantly amazes *us* the number of professional CORGI-registered
'numpties' who cock up gas fittings.
So the answer is somewhere in the middle. All of us would readlily admit that
there are incompetent DIYers, but there are incompetent CORGI fitters too, and
you cannot accept that only the former exist. This is a DIY group, and, as
others have so eloquently stated, if all you're going to do is to criticise us
then go away. If you are going to *contribute* to the group, then you are
welcome.
> Give John a break - he might be by the book , but he also may save your
> boiler being condemmed by the next plumber.
Again: I thought it was a matter of safety?
Jon Rouse
<367A60D5...@newbridge.com>...
> Why not use compression or gas thread screw fittings with the appropriate
> thread sealant?
Because they can't be used in enclosed areas?
Jon Rouse
<na.da995648b...@argonet.co.uk>...
> I think that the best way to go about things is to doo the job then get a
> local corgi bod to have a look to check for problems.
> It is a bit like house electrics.You compleat an instlation then you get
> someone to check the work out.
Unfortunatley, some extememly stupid legislation now dictates that the last
person to work on an installation is responsible for the whole
installation. For this reason gas fiiters now insist that a suitable fused
spur is available when installing a boiler, and burglar alarm installers
insist on the same. If they were to touch the house wiring themselves, they
become responsible for the whole of the installation, even if they have
never worked on any other part of it.
Jon Rouse
<75egkf$kef$6...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
> Once again I am not particularly pro CORGI its the HSE
> who decided that the ONLY class of persons they would
> recognise as competent to carry out work on gas was
> those who were registered with CORGI.
The Health and Safety Executive was set up under the Health and Safety at
Work etc Act and therfore only applies to Health and Safety at Work. It
does not apply where you are not employing others to do the work.
> If there were other "Recognised Bodies" it would in my
> personal estimation be advantageous in that there would
> be an element of competition and the ever increasing
> annual subscription costs to CORGI would have something
> to induce limitation
Why is there only one monopolies commission? Most consumers are more
worried about the fact that CORGI do not seem to offer any consumer
protection, they seem, like most other trade bodies, to represent the
interests of their members and not of the general public - which is
understandable when you consider who is paying them directly.
> However where the DIY projects often fail in
> gas work is because the detail of the regulations is not
> known.
Which is exactly why we have a discussion group, and why we welcome helpful
contributions from those who know the answers, whether professionally
qualified or not.
> Typical defects to be found in DIY work include but are
> not limited to the following
Useful list snipped - thanks.
Jon Rouse
<367AE4FA...@Mica-Hardware.co.uk>...
> Rather than annoy John, shouldn't we be encouraging him to advise and
> point out the errors of our ways? As far as I can make out most posts to
> date have been rather abrasive and anti-Corgi.
As you admiot to being a newbie, you will not be aware of the constant
stream of people who turn up and try and make out that the only people who
can do work on gas installations are those who are CORGI registered. This a
myth perpetuated by those with a vested interest and is not refelcted by
the law.
CORGI have set themselves up like a mediaval guild to protect the mystery
of gas fitting. If John isn't careful he may get his tongue torn out for
revealing trade secrets to those not in the Guild.
> I find this self-defeating and also silly. If you discovered a good
> reference book on how to defuse a bomb, you wouldn't disregard it
> because it was too 'regulation' - you'd probably refer to it first
> should you ever have to defuse a bomb.
If the last three bombs you have defused had been planted by the same
organisation, you may want to ask elsewhere for help in their disarming.
> Flame me if you disagree - otherwise tell me that you knew the Corgi
> regs before reading his posts.
CORGI don't write the regs, they just collect the money.
Jon Rouse
<WYeeWUAZ...@spennithorne.demon.co.uk>...
> Ron Dixon in Brookside got down for connecting a gas cooker in his flat
> with a dodgy one of these and blowing up the shops - or was that
> artistic licence?
Do uk.d-i-y advertise on ITV - No.
Do British Gas advertise on ITV - Yes
Derek Uttley
thread fittings) As you say, the threads on a compression fitting simply
provide a mechanical means of compressing the olive and seat together.
Applying sealant to the threads of a compression fitting serves no purpose.
In fact, contaminating the sealing surfaces of a compression fitting with
thread sealant (any type), which is easily done, can have a detrimental
impact on the integrity of the joint.
D.
T1MDownie wrote:
>
> Hmm.... this brings us back to the question of just what makes the seal in a
> compression joint. I, and I suspect many others, believe that the gas/fluid
> seal is formed by the olive on its seat and that the threads (in a correctly
> made joint) should play no part in forming the gas/fluid seal (other than
> providing the compression force required to make the seal). In fact, I'd go so
> far as to say that use of thread sealing compounds shouldn't be required if
> you've made the joint correctly. Using thread sealants smacks of being at
> best, a belt and braces approach, at worst, a bodge.
>
> Care to comment?
>
> TD
--
Andrew Gabriel
"Jon Rouse" <rou...@it.postoffice.co.uk> writes:
>
>Unfortunatley, some extememly stupid legislation now dictates that the last
>person to work on an installation is responsible for the whole
>installation.
I don't believe this is true (if anyone knows any different,
please specify the relevant Act).
They are responsible for checking enough of the installation
to ensure the part they add will work safely (e.g. won't overload
supplies, earthing will work, etc.).
>For this reason gas fiiters now insist that a suitable fused
>spur is available when installing a boiler, and burglar alarm installers
>insist on the same.
Many gas fitters and alarm installers wouldn't have the necessary
skills or eqipment to carry out the checks. However, some companies
do send their gas fitters and alarm installers on IEE Regs courses
so they can do this work.
>If they were to touch the house wiring themselves, they
>become responsible for the whole of the installation, even if they have
>never worked on any other part of it.
As I said, I don't believe it.
--
Andrew Gabriel
Consultant Software Engineer
Andrew Gabriel
>compression joint.
It's a ball and cone joint - the olive is the ball and the
mating surface is conical. Providing there is no contamination
(hence the reason you mustn't use any sealant with this type of
joint), a ball seated inside a cone forms a perfect seal.
A second seal is formed where the olive cuts into the pipe
surface the first time the joint is made. As such, the olive
is deformed slightly on the first tighening. Over-deforming
the olive destroys it's spherical surface shape, and can
cause failure, either immediately, or later on dissassembly
and reassembly of the joint.
Niels Johansen
me that there are two ways that it could be sealed, one is the
"intended" way where water is prevented from going over as
well as under the olive where this touches the middle bit (sorry
abaut the jargon), ie 2 gaps, the other way would be to seal the
thread AS WELL AS the bit where the nut touches the olive
(opposite end of olive to before), ie 3 gaps. By wrapping ptfe
around the threads so that it sticks out of the back of the
assembled fitting, you hit 2 of the 3 gaps (but obviously not the
third, which is the one between the pipe and the olive).
Derek Uttley wrote:
> One uses thread sealants on a joint that simply screws together. (gas taper
> thread fittings) As you say, the threads on a compression fitting simply
> provide a mechanical means of compressing the olive and seat together.
> Applying sealant to the threads of a compression fitting serves no purpose.
> In fact, contaminating the sealing surfaces of a compression fitting with
> thread sealant (any type), which is easily done, can have a detrimental
> impact on the integrity of the joint.
>
> D.
>
> T1MDownie wrote:
>
> >
> > Hmm.... this brings us back to the question of just what makes the seal in a
Colin Eathorne
I fully agree that the answer is somewhere in the middle ground - and when I refer
to DIY 'numpties', I am talking about the 5% of Diyers that have no idea what day
of the week it is - never mind how to make a compression joint.
No critisism of the group was intended.
I'd say that 95% of diyers that we deal with are sensible, competent and know that
when in doubt to ask advice (I'm talking generally here, not about gas) - the
other 5% however are as described above - and are a liability to themselves and
others.
An everyday example of a 'numptie' was someone who came in today and asked for a
45amp fuse for an FCU (Fused connection unit). When asked what it was for they
explained that their shower (8.5 kW) was blowing the 13amp fuse in the unit. We
inquired further and discovered that the FCU had been installed where a light
switch had been, and that they had run 6mm FT&E cable to the shower from the FCU -
but hadn't realised that they needed to upgrade the cable (probably 1 mm) to where
the switch had been!
As far as contributing to the group goes, I view my place here as an advisor on
paint & decor, tools, general hardware and on sourcing hard to get items - as that
is what I do day to day. I also view the group as an area where I can ask advice
on questions I've been asked - there are experts and experienced Diyers here in
every field, which is the beauty of the group.
Matthew Marks wrote:
> In article <367AE783...@mica-hardware.co.uk>,
> Colin Eathorne <Colin_E...@Mica-Hardware.co.uk> writes:
>
> > It constantly amazes me the number of DIY 'numpties' who try to purchase gas
> > fittings.
>
> And it constantly amazes *us* the number of professional CORGI-registered
> 'numpties' who cock up gas fittings.
>
> So the answer is somewhere in the middle. All of us would readlily admit that
> there are incompetent DIYers, but there are incompetent CORGI fitters too, and
> you cannot accept that only the former exist. This is a DIY group, and, as
> others have so eloquently stated, if all you're going to do is to criticise us
> then go away. If you are going to *contribute* to the group, then you are
> welcome.
>
<snip>
Colin Eathorne
Derek Uttley
When correctly assembled and tightened, the design provides an automatic
seal to all surfaces.
D.
Stuart Grant
the last person to work on an installation is responsible for the whole
installation. >>
Since when? A Gas fitter came in to install a new meter for me about 6
months ago. He prodded the central heating system here and there, and
said "You've got an exposed flexy flue connector. They disintegrate
within 5 years, you need a stainless or ceramic section up to the
brickwork." "How much longer will it last?" I asked him. He knuckled it
a time or two and said "It's fairly new, and still sound, but I'd still
replace it as soon ass possible." Then he got me to sign a form to say
he'd pointed that out to me to cover his back and off he went. I didn't
tell him I'd installed it myself in 1985.
Stuart Grant
John
Stuart Grant wrote in message ...
See my post re RIDDOR reporting. Your instance
illustrates a "sub standard" situation in which the flue
is functioning safely at present and is unlikely to fail
in the immediate future. Having inspected it (knuckled
it) and been satisfied it wasn't corroded (yet) he has
told you and you have signed an acknowledgement of the
situation. The flexible flue liner SHOULD only be used
where protected i.e. enclosed within the brickwork flue
not be left exposed as yours apparently is.
Eric Lee
[snip]
> People ring up and ask me to fit them a Combi and seem
> quite surprised when my response is usually "WHY?" After
> I've gone through the drawbacks of most combis they
> usually say but my mates got one and he says its great,
> to which my response is yes but if you spent a packet on
> taking out your cylinder and tanks and putting a combi
> in would you admit to your mates that it was a mistake?
[snip]
Just thought I'd mention that I've got one and I think it's
great. Of course it's a 37kW boiler so it can kick bottom,
but what I REALLY like about it that is it's LOADS more
interesting when it goes wrong. Oh, and it's french so I get
to speak to lots of different people when searching for spares.
(Actually, now I've been told about "Time & Temperature", right
here in Bromsgrove, I've been able to get all my E.L.M. LeBlanc
spares sameday.)
Pip pip
Eric Lee
dooper
wrote:
Hmm,but surely British Gas is only the name of a group of companies
for eg British Gas Trading which just sells gas??
John
Eric Lee wrote in message
<368D3BF7...@t-heads.demon.co.uk>...
>John wrote:
>[snip]
>> People ring up and ask me to fit them a Combi and
seem
>> quite surprised when my response is usually "WHY?"
SNIP
>
>Just thought I'd mention that I've got one and I think
it's
>great.
SNIP
>Pip pip
>
>Eric Lee
I hope you remain happy with it but two questions need
considering -
1. "how long have you had it and how much have you spent
on spares only so far?" - most non-diy customers will
also have spent a large amount on labour also
2. "how hard is the water around your area and have you
done any pretreatment?"
actually I'll make it three "how many times have you had
intermittent and unexplained failures through loose plug
and socket connections in the back etc.?"
Still I hope you are one of the lucky ones (or the
exception that proves the rule????)
Happy new year