Using a 16A appliance in a 13A socket?
JP Coetzee
3600/230=15.7A. It has 16A 2P+E plug on it like this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:16A-plug.jpg
In the shed I have a 30A ring with standard 13A dual-gang switched
sockets. Can I use one of these: http://www.toolstation.com/images/library/stock/webbig/47166.jpg
?
If not, what are those connectors for? And what is the best way to
power the kiln?
There is a consumer unit in the shed with space for another breaker.
Many thanks.
James Salisbury
Hi,
The unit you have found is for plugging a caravan in. Something like
this is needed
http://uk.farnell.com/pro-power/sq1663ca/socket-interlocked-switch-240v/dp/1017260
and fit a 16A breaker and rcd as required.
John
"JP Coetzee" <uo6l...@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:1837f4fe-5ef0-4854...@q16g2000yqq.googlegroups.com...
> We have a new kiln rated at 3.6kW. It requires a single-phase supply.
> 3600/230=15.7A. It has 16A 2P+E plug on it like this one:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:16A-plug.jpg
>
> In the shed I have a 30A ring with standard 13A dual-gang switched
> sockets. Can I use one of these:
> http://www.toolstation.com/images/library/stock/webbig/47166.jpg
> ?
>
> If not, what are those connectors for?
Just because a socket is built to carry up to 16 amps - it doesn't have to.
Some people may have low powered equipment with that type of plug and want
to use a 13 amp socket.
Your kiln will blow the 13 amp fuse.
I suggest you wire up a spur (radial) directly to the fuse box. Someone with
more knowledge will advise on cable size and ratings.
What is feeding the shed fuse box? It may already be limited by the circuit
feeding it.
David Hansen
Coetzee <uo6l...@sneakemail.com> wrote this:-
>We have a new kiln rated at 3.6kW. It requires a single-phase supply.
>3600/230=15.7A. It has 16A 2P+E plug on it like this one:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:16A-plug.jpg
>
>In the shed I have a 30A ring with standard 13A dual-gang switched
>sockets. Can I use one of these: http://www.toolstation.com/images/library/stock/webbig/47166.jpg
>?
You can. However, doing so would not be sensible as it is likely to
get rather hot and even if it doesn't cause a fire the plug will not
last that long.
>If not, what are those connectors for?
Caravans. They have the those sort of plugs and sockets. Caravan
places also tend to offer leads with a French/German plug on one
end.
They can also be used to connect tools and other low power devices.
>And what is the best way to power the kiln?
It is best to connect it via one of these
<http://www.screwfix.com/prods/52616/Electrical-Supplies/Industrial/240V/200-250V-MK-Commando-Interlocked-Angled-Socket-2P-E-IP44>
Other suppliers are available and this sort of socket is even
available in the larger big orange sheds ("Depots", unless they have
changed the name recently).
The socket could be connected to the ring main, if that is not
already heavily loaded, via a 16A circuit breaker.
>There is a consumer unit in the shed with space for another breaker.
However, it would be far better to install a 20A circuit
breaker/fuse in the consumer unit and run a radial circuit to the
socket. You could install more than one of these sockets on the same
circuit, but you will not be able to run more than one kiln.
Multiple sockets arranged in this way are for flexibility.
--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/ukpga_20000023_en_8#pt3-pb3-l1g54
Andy Dingley
> We have a new kiln rated at 3.6kW.
Wire a new radial for it.
This is for several reasons:
* You should do. The round blue socket you need should (to the regs)
be fused as a radial, not placed on a ring.
* You need RCD protection on the sockets (never mind the 17th, you
need this for your real safety). You need to avoid RCD protection on
this kiln, as the leakage currents will likely be enough for nuisance
tripping to be a problem. That would be a nuisance on your working
sockets, but even on a separate circuit it can be a nuisance that
ruins pots by dropping out when you're not looking.
* It's shed wiring. Pulling >3kW through existing rings(?) in sheds
that were wired who-knows-when out of who-knows-what has often been a
problem.
When wiring it, use good quality parts (MK) and carefully check the
screw connectors in everything. This includes screw connectors in old
circuits that are involved too. Very few appliances pull over 3kW
continuously for long periods, so if you're likely to have connector
contact heating problems (loose screw terminals start fires), this is
when you're going to get them.
David Hansen
Dingley <din...@codesmiths.com> wrote this:-
>* You should do. The round blue socket you need should (to the regs)
>be fused as a radial, not placed on a ring.
Fixed loads of up to 16A, protected by a suitable fuse or circuit
breaker, can be connected to ring mains. A socket is simply a means
of providing a connection point which does not need someone with
electrical skills to connect/disconnect the equipment.
I'm not saying this is the best way to connect something. In most
circumstances wiring back to the consumer unit is far better, but on
occasions it might be acceptable to connect to the ring.
Peter Parry
<SENDdavi...@spidacom.co.uk> wrote:
>It is best to connect it via one of these
><http://www.screwfix.com/prods/52616/Electrical-Supplies/Industrial/240V/200-250V-MK-Commando-Interlocked-Angled-Socket-2P-E-IP44>
Not if you want to live for long :-) (or they have the wrong
picture).
might be a better bet.
Dave Plowman (News)
<1837f4fe-5ef0-4854...@q16g2000yqq.googlegroups.com>,
JP Coetzee <uo6l...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
> We have a new kiln rated at 3.6kW. It requires a single-phase supply.
> 3600/230=15.7A. It has 16A 2P+E plug on it like this one:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:16A-plug.jpg
> In the shed I have a 30A ring with standard 13A dual-gang switched
> sockets. Can I use one of these: http://www.toolstation.com/images/library/stock/webbig/47166.jpg
> ?
3.6kW works out at 15 amps even at 240 rather than the nominal 230v. At
230v it's approx 15.5 amp. So well over 13 amps which is the absolute
maximum for a 13 amp socket, strangely. ;-) Hence the device not being
fitted with a 13 amp plug...
> If not, what are those connectors for?
They are an industrial connector used for all sorts. Machinery etc. Even
caravan site connectors. Anything where 13 amps isn't enough - or you
require a more rugged connector.
> And what is the best way to
> power the kiln?
> There is a consumer unit in the shed with space for another breaker.
If the supply is up to it fit a radial from a new 16 amp breaker to the
correct socket. Ordinary 2.5 TW&E should be fine for a short cable run.
TLC etc will supply a suitable socket for the fitted plug.
But do make sure the supply to the shed is up to it. Which would normally
mean it is greater than 2.5mm.
--
*Pentium wise, pen and paper foolish *
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Dave Plowman (News)
David Hansen <SENDdavi...@spidacom.co.uk> wrote:
> Fixed loads of up to 16A, protected by a suitable fuse or circuit
> breaker, can be connected to ring mains. A socket is simply a means
> of providing a connection point which does not need someone with
> electrical skills to connect/disconnect the equipment.
Are you absolutely certain about this? I've never seen a device intended
for this sort of use. FCUs are limited to 13 amps. Indeed it's now frowned
upon to connect any sustained fixed load - like say an immersion - to a
ring circuit, even within the 13 amp limit.
--
*Cover me. I'm changing lanes.
John Rumm
> We have a new kiln rated at 3.6kW. It requires a single-phase supply.
> 3600/230=15.7A. It has 16A 2P+E plug on it like this one:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:16A-plug.jpg
>
> In the shed I have a 30A ring with standard 13A dual-gang switched
> sockets. Can I use one of these: http://www.toolstation.com/images/library/stock/webbig/47166.jpg
> ?
Not for long...
> If not, what are those connectors for? And what is the best way to
Plugging in your caravan etc when at home.
> power the kiln?
Interlocked matching commando socket on a dedicated radial circuit
protected by a 16A type B MCB. A run of 2.5mm^2 T&E should be more than
adequate if not particularly long or subject to other derating factors.
If surface wired, or in mini trunking then it does not need to be RCD
protected (which does not add any value in this application, but does
have downsides).
> There is a consumer unit in the shed with space for another breaker.
That makes it easy then ;-)
--
Cheers,
John.
/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
TheOldFellow
I hope (and pray) you
meant:http://www.screwfix.com/prods/45929/Electrical-Supplies/Industrial/240V/Industrial-Socket-32A-240V
as the link's picture is a plug, whatever Screwedfix call it.
R.
Andrew Gabriel
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> writes:
> In article <l2jim5dfjqjqmk8fd...@4ax.com>,
> David Hansen <SENDdavi...@spidacom.co.uk> wrote:
>> Fixed loads of up to 16A, protected by a suitable fuse or circuit
>> breaker, can be connected to ring mains. A socket is simply a means
>> of providing a connection point which does not need someone with
>> electrical skills to connect/disconnect the equipment.
>
> Are you absolutely certain about this?
Yes.
> I've never seen a device intended
> for this sort of use. FCUs are limited to 13 amps. Indeed it's now frowned
> upon to connect any sustained fixed load - like say an immersion - to a
> ring circuit, even within the 13 amp limit.
Not saying it's a good idea, but it's allowed, with a fuse
or breaker up to 16A.
Connecting the primary electric heating system (space or water)
to a ring is not allowed though. Supplementary heating and
small water heaters are allowed.
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
David Hansen
<theold...@gmail.com> wrote this:-
>I hope (and pray) you
>meant:http://www.screwfix.com/prods/45929/Electrical-Supplies/Industrial/240V/Industrial-Socket-32A-240V
>
>as the link's picture is a plug, whatever Screwedfix call it.
Yes, my mistake.
What I linked to is the sort of thing one would fit to a caravan as
an inlet coupling, into which the lead fits. What you linked to is
what I should have linked to.
Dave Osborne
That's still the wrong picture and the wrong current rating and almost
certainly the wrong price by a factor of 10. In fact Screwfix have
completely borked all their descriptions of MK commando product. None of
the items they are describing on this page as "interlocked" is in fact
interlocked.
http://www.screwfix.com/cats/A331854/Electrical-Supplies/Industrial/240V
The Pro-Power SQ1663C from Farnell or CPC is made by ILME (Italian) and
not best quality, but OK and good value for money.
MK will be expensive wherever you buy it from. The MK part you would
want is K9610 BLU (IP44) or K9324 BLU (IP67).
Your best bet might be go get one on Ebay, such as item no 320480965653
or 380197360076 or 380199654506
The first item is Mennekes brand, which is top quality. The other
supplier sells Gewiss product, which is another Italian maker and
similar in quality to Ilme.
HTH
David Hansen
Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote this:-
>I've never seen a device intended for this sort of use.
There isn't anything specifically made for this sort of thing that I
have seen. However, one could wire a 16A MCB, in a suitable
enclosure, into a ring main and feed fixed equipment from it. For
example
<http://www.screwfix.com/prods/32311/Electrical-Supplies/Consumer-Units/Wylex-Consumer-Units/Wylex-IP40-Insulated-Enclosure>
can presumably be fitted with an MCB and a blanking plate.
I'm not saying this is a good idea in many circumstances, it takes
up half the rating of the ring, but in some circumstances it may be
acceptable. An example would be a small workshop/garage where the
ring only feeds small hand tools and general equipment like portable
lights, and there is no spare way.
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember JP Coetzee
<uo6l...@sneakemail.com> saying something like:
>We have a new kiln rated at 3.6kW. It requires a single-phase supply.
>3600/230=15.7A. It has 16A 2P+E plug on it like this one:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:16A-plug.jpg
>
>In the shed I have a 30A ring with standard 13A dual-gang switched
>sockets. Can I use one of these: http://www.toolstation.com/images/library/stock/webbig/47166.jpg
>?
NO.
>If not, what are those connectors for?
Simply to run tools with a 16A plug that happen to draw less than 13A.
> And what is the best way to
>power the kiln?
Fit a 16A socket as a spur above one of your normal sockets - as it's a
ring, it's good. Or run a radial from the CU.
>There is a consumer unit in the shed with space for another breaker.
See above.
Andy Dingley
> >* You should do. The round blue socket you need should (to the regs)
> >be fused as a radial, not placed on a ring.
>
> Fixed loads of up to 16A, protected by a suitable fuse or circuit
> breaker, can be connected to ring mains.
Agreed, although I'm unsure of the 17th's position on this.
However I don't regard this as a practical option here.
Firstly it's "work" to do it. We're talking about a fused connection
to the existing ring and a spur to the blue socket, not just sticking
the blue socket straight onto the ring. Now if this workshop is
anything like mine in layout (a house-sized CU by the door), that's
nearly as much work as running a whole radial back to the CU. That
also gives me fresh cable, in my choice of size, with no other loads
on it.
Secondly (maybe first) it's important to split the RCD protection.
Thirdly diversity is hard in a workshop - the planer auto-starts the
dust extractor, the plasma cutter uses the compressor too. That's
multi-kW loads kicking in in pairs. Some of the assumptions underlying
the design of the domestic ring just aren't applicable here.
David Hansen
Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote this:-
>If the supply is up to it fit a radial from a new 16 amp breaker to the
>correct socket.
If I was doing it myself I might, for a bit of fun, wire it up to a
French style socket and fit a suitable plug [1] [2]. Provided that
the conditions in the garage were not such that a "BS4343"
connection is needed for robustness.
Obviously switching and protection would need to be double pole,
including those in the kiln but that is presumably not UK/ROI
specific and any new one would presumably need to be suitable for
use anywhere in the EU.
[1] making sure both are rated at 16A, some are rated at 10-16A
depending on approval body.
[2] the French style one is better in my view than the German style,
where the earth arrangement on many relies on a rivet to hold the
earth connection, which is designed to twist slightly, to the earth
terminal block. The Danish version is the best of all, but will
eventually be replaced with the French version for uniformity.
David Hansen
Dingley <din...@codesmiths.com> wrote this:-
>Agreed, although I'm unsure of the 17th's position on this.
Still allowed, according to John Whitfield.
>However I don't regard this as a practical option here.
I have given an example of where it may be acceptable in another
post. Whether those circumstances apply in this case I have no idea.
David Hansen
Curmudgeon <grimly...@REMOVEgmail.com> wrote this:-
>Fit a 16A socket as a spur above one of your normal sockets - as it's a
>ring, it's good. Or run a radial from the CU.
Only if the spur is suitably protected with a 16A circuit breaker.
If it isn't then it doesn't comply with the 17th, or indeed the 16th
or IIRC the 15th Edition. No idea about earlier versions.
As space is available in the consumer unit then the best option is
to wire it back to there. I might add a socket or two more for
flexibility and possible other uses.
JP Coetzee
> that were wired who-knows-when out of who-knows-what has often been a
> problem.
House CU with dedicated 40A RCD to shed --> buried 15 metre 40A
armoured cable spur --> CU in the shed with 30A RCD socket ring and
10A RCD lighting ring. Put in on 31st December 2004.
I'll put in a new breaker. What is an "interlocking" socket?
I can't find a suitable downward-pointing, switched socket anywhere.
Can anyone help?
Thanks for all your help
Andy Dingley
> I should have added that. IEE Regs (17th) preclude fitting unshuttered
> sockets in a domestic premises
Is that really the case for "domestic premises", meaning the whole
address? Or can you use the usual cop-outs about "workshops" and
"competent persons"?
(Assuming the kiln isn't in the lounge or the kitchen. I know at least
one that is.)
Andy Dingley
> The Danish version is the best of all, but will
> eventually be replaced with the French version for uniformity.
Replaced? Although the French type E (where the socket has a
protruding earth pin) has been _permitted_ for a couple of years now
(mostly as a convenience to European foreigners with hybrid E/F
plugs), is there any intention to actually replace the Danish Knudsen
style? AIUI, they deliberately haven't permitted type F sockets, as
there's a problem where older Danish plugs could then be jammed into
them. This doesn't sound like they're trying to remove their legacy
kit.
js.b1
required by a kiln, it will damage plug, socket and wiring.
If there are spare ways in the workshop CU...
- Fit 16A RCBO (or 16A MCB if RCD supplied)
- Fit an Interlocked 16A BS4343 230V Socket
- Supply it by 2.5mm cable
If there are no spare ways in the workshop CU...
- Fit a larger CU
- Follow the above
Source of Interlocked 16A BS4343 230V Socket...
- www.discount-electrical.co.uk
- Gewiss Eurobloc Blue Compact Fixed Interlocked Socket 2P+E IP55 16A
230V
- GW66448
- £12.54 ex VAT, plus about £7 carriage, plus VAT
Perfectly ok, cheaper than Mennekes/MK etc which will be £80-140.
Why Interlocked...
- BS4343 are unshuttered sockets, that means a child can easily poke a
nail into a live contact unlike a domestic BS1363 shuttered sockets
- Anyone can unplug under load which will flash (arc) on 32A-63A-125A
- Interlocked means the power can not be turned on without a plug in,
and the plug can not be removed without turning the power off
- The downside is the cost, however the Geweiss above is reasonably
priced
There are BS4343 Interlocked Sockets which have a DIN rail so you can
fit a 16A MCB (or 16A RCBO or 16A MCB & RCD) permitting supply from
any other suitable final circuit - but they are physically large and
expensive. Supplying a 16A heating device off a ring is less than
ideal, although for a workshop without several fixed power tools on
the ring it should be ok. Just a DIN rail Interlocked Socket is an
expensive solution - cheaper to change a CU enclosure if no space.
NOTE most waterproof CU (eg, MK) do not take RCBO - you have to use
RCD with MCB, conventional non-waterproof CU (MK Sentry) will take
RCBO without problem.
Dave Plowman (News)
> Yes.
Then I'd say a kiln would come under this in practice if not in name -
since it's likely to be on for long periods.
--
*Forget the Joneses, I keep us up with the Simpsons.
David Hansen
<t...@dionic.net> wrote this:-
>I'm suspecting if any little sprogs or the braindead enter your workshop
>unsupervised/untrained, they'll find more ways to chop themselves to bits
>than electrocute themselves???
And rather more likely ways to damage themselves.
Scrump
> recommend interlocked commando sockets - this is about as bomb proof as it
> gets...
I will put in a new RCD + spur + single socket. What does
"interlocked" mean?
David Hansen
Coetzee <uo6l...@sneakemail.com> wrote this:-
>I can't find a suitable downward-pointing, switched socket anywhere.
You are unlikely to find one, unless it is also interlocked. If it
is easily accessible fit one of them, if not fit a separate switch
somewhere suitable and a plain socket.
Dave Plowman (News)
<443619a8-2bd1-44d0...@f12g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
JP Coetzee <uo6l...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
> I can't find a suitable downward-pointing, switched socket anywhere.
> Can anyone help?
They are certainly available as I've seen them in TV studios, etc. Give
TLC a ring - they are good at getting 'specials' in for you. But I'd guess
an angled unswitched would bolt onto a vertical switched one if you could
source both locally.
--
*How about "never"? Is "never" good for you?
David Hansen
Dingley <din...@codesmiths.com> wrote this:-
>> The Danish version is the best of all, but will
>> eventually be replaced with the French version for uniformity.
>
>Replaced? Although the French type E (where the socket has a
>protruding earth pin) has been _permitted_ for a couple of years now
>(mostly as a convenience to European foreigners with hybrid E/F
>plugs), is there any intention to actually replace the Danish Knudsen
>style?
French style sockets have been permitted since July 2008 I gather.
There is no intention to rip out Danish style sockets. However, it
isn't just for the convenience of foreigners. Danes come back home
with appliances bought elsewhere, which are fitted with a
French/German style plug. Many don't replace this with a Danish
style plug, as they should, but plug in. Obviously much portable
equipment is Class II and will come fitted with a 2.5A or 16A plug
with no earth connection, in which case there is no problem as
either version will safely fit the sockets.
I imagine that eventually the French style socket will become the
most common sort and the Danish sort will die out altogether. This
won't be for decades though.
David Hansen
<jpco...@gmail.com> wrote this:-
>What does "interlocked" mean?
It was explained in another post. To withdraw the plug the supply
must be switched off. This prevents someone unplugging it on load.
Arcs from 16A equipment are not too bad, but this sort of socket
goes up to 125A, which would be much more impressive if not somewhat
frightening.
dennis@home
"Scrump" <jpco...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:87ee1c8c-2408-4934...@m31g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>> >What does "interlocked" mean?
>>
>> It was explained in another post. To withdraw the plug the supply
>> must be switched off. This prevents someone unplugging it on load.
>> Arcs from 16A equipment are not too bad, but this sort of socket
>> goes up to 125A, which would be much more impressive if not somewhat
>> frightening.
>>
>
> So if I just fit an RCD and an interlocked socket, I would have to
> turn the supply off at the RCD to withdraw the plug? It's not enough
> to turn off the switch on the kiln?
I think the last poster has the wrong sort of interlock in mind.
The idea is to have a switch on the socket such that it can only be on when
a plug is in and it has to be off to remove the plug.
This is to stop things being poked into live holes.
JP Coetzee
> It was explained in another post. To withdraw the plug the supply
> must be switched off. This prevents someone unplugging it on load.
> Arcs from 16A equipment are not too bad, but this sort of socket
> goes up to 125A, which would be much more impressive if not somewhat
> frightening.
So if I just fit an RCD and an interlocked socket, I would have to
js.b1
> So if I just fit an RCD and an interlocked socket, I would have to
> turn the supply off at the RCD to withdraw the plug? It's not enough
> to turn off the switch on the kiln?
Post a picture of your workshop/shed CU (Consumer Unit).
- You need to add a 16A circuit breaker
- You need to run cable to a 16A 230V Interlocked Socket
- You need to fit the 16A 230V Interlocked Socket to the wall
An Interlocked Socket is simply this:
- 16A Round Socket
- Lever or Rotary Switch
The Plug can not be *physically* removed from the Socket unless the
Switch is OFF.
The Switch can not *physically* be turned ON until a Plug is inserted
into the Socket.
The Interlock is a mechanical device for safety, you do not need to
touch RCD, Circuit Breakers, Fuses, etc.
I notice Discount Electrical do not show a picture of the Interlocked
Socket.
The compact socket looks like the following (joint the link back up in
notepad):
They do a non-angled version on the www.discount-electrical.co.uk
website, just search for 16A 230V Interlocked Socket - I believe there
are 2-3 of them (probably a vertical, horizontal and angled compact
version). You need a switched 16A socket anyway just in case of any
problem and price wise £12-20 is as good as you are going to get.
JP Coetzee
> - 16A Round Socket
> - Lever or Rotary Switch
Ah OK. The reason I ask is that some sockets I've seen called
"Interlocked" don't seem to have an integral switch.
On Feb 3, 2:33 pm, "js.b1" <js...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> The compact socket looks like the following (joint the link back up in notepad):
>
> http://cgi.ebay.it/GEWISS-COMBIBLOC-CON-FONDO-IP55-2P+T-16A-230V-GW66...
That's very neat. Is the switch the black bar across the top of the
socket?
Dave Osborne
> Secondly (maybe first) it's important to split the RCD protection.
>
> Thirdly diversity is hard in a workshop - the planer auto-starts the
> dust extractor, the plasma cutter uses the compressor too. That's
> multi-kW loads kicking in in pairs. Some of the assumptions underlying
> the design of the domestic ring just aren't applicable here.
Have to agree with you on this one Andy.
IME, most workshops are wired so that each "machine position" has it's
own radial circuit. There is usually only a 13A ring main for a bunch of
13A socket outlets for light-bench top use and then, if there are
multiple benches, each one often has its own radial circuit with a local
RCD.
Notwithstanding whether it's allowed on the 17th, I would be inclined to
install a 20A radial circuit (i.e min 2.5mm2 cable) with a 16A MCB
dedicated for this equipment.
OK, I've checked the 17th OSG and Appendix 8 Sec 8.3 allows for a radial
final circuit using a 16A socket-outlet complying with BS EN 60309-2 (BS
4343).
The use of an interlocked socket outlet is *not* prescribed.
The use of a switched socket outlet is *not* prescribed.
However, according to Appendix 10 of the OSG, whilst an IEC 309
connector is good for isolation and functional switching (by virtue of
pulling the plug), it is not good for emergency switching, so really,
there should be an isolating switch adjacent to or incorporated with the
socket outlet.
Having allowed for diversity (none in this case) a 20A radial circuit is
acceptable, in which case, the number of sockets is unlimited.
Minimum conductor size is 2.5/1.5 mm2 (Table 8A). Table 7.1 and Appendix
6 apply for grouping/derating.
TheOldFellow
Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
> TheOldFellow <theold...@gmail.com>
> wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 10:38
>
> > On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:52:59 +0000
> > David Hansen <SENDdavi...@spidacom.co.uk> wrote:
> >
>
>
> >>
> >> It is best to connect it via one of these
> >> <http://www.screwfix.com/prods/52616/Electrical-
> Supplies/Industrial/240V/200-250V-MK-Commando-Interlocked-Angled-Socket-2P-
> E-IP44>
>
>
>
> > I hope (and pray) you
> > meant:http://www.screwfix.com/prods/45929/Electrical-
> Supplies/Industrial/240V/Industrial-Socket-32A-240V
>
> :-)
>
> Except your's is a 32A and not interlocked :)
>
Yes, as you say. I learned something today too.
I have to fit one for my planer (16A)
R.
Dave Osborne
> James Salisbury<nntp.dsl.pipex.com> <@invalid>
> wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 09:41
>
>> Hi,
>> The unit you have found is for plugging a caravan in. Something like
>> this is needed
>> http://uk.farnell.com/pro-power/sq1663ca/socket-interlocked-
> switch-240v/dp/1017260
>> and fit a 16A breaker and rcd as required.
>>
>
> I should have added that. IEE Regs (17th) preclude fitting unshuttered
> workshop *if* the socket were nice and high) - just in case you have
> (visiting) kids...
Not so, according to OSG Appendix 8. BS4343 socket outlets are allowed
and interlocking/shuttering is not prescribed.
Dave Plowman (News)
<30d4a67a-892b-4296...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
Will you actually have to unplug the kiln that often? And since you said
it has integral switching no need to worry about arcing. So why bother
with a switched type? The CU is presumably nearby if you did need to
isolate things quickly for any reason.
--
*I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it *
js.b1
> On Feb 3, 2:33 pm, "js.b1" <js...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > The compact socket looks like the following (joint the link back up in notepad):
> >http://cgi.ebay.it/GEWISS-COMBIBLOC-CON-FONDO-IP55-2P+T-16A-230V-GW66...
>
> That's very neat. Is the switch the black bar across the top of the
> socket?
Yes, you pull it forward or push it back.
- It will not turn ON unless a plug is in (paperclip safe)
- It will not allow a plug to be removed unless turned OFF (flash
safe)
If you search on that GW66xxxx part number you should get a website
showing the dimensions - it is not huge, not small. It is smaller than
the MK Commando version which is an extremely large "wedge shaped
block of grey cheese".
The dedicated 16A circuit breaker is required because the 16A plug has
no fuse :-)
Contrast with your 32A ring final circuit which has 13A fused plugs,
obviously you can not connect anything 16A to a 13A fuse (plug, spur)
because it will blow the fuse within a few minutes as well as cause
overheating.
Dave Osborne
No, an interlocked socket has a socket with an adjacent switch which are
mechanically interlinked.
That is to say:
1. If there is no plug in the socket, the switch can not be turned to
the on position.
2. If the switch is on, then the plug can not be removed from the socket.
This is good because, with this arrangement:
1. You can not connect or disconnect the plug under load.
2. The socket outlet can not be live if there is no plug inserted. This
gives the same effect as shuttered 13A socket outlets (i.e. protects
from prying fingers).
Dave Osborne
> In article
> <30d4a67a-892b-4296...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
> JP Coetzee<uo6l...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>>> An Interlocked Socket is simply this:
>>> - 16A Round Socket
>>> - Lever or Rotary Switch
>
>> Ah OK. The reason I ask is that some sockets I've seen called
>> "Interlocked" don't seem to have an integral switch.
>
>> On Feb 3, 2:33 pm, "js.b1"<js...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>> The compact socket looks like the following (joint the link back up in
>>> notepad):
>>>
>>> http://cgi.ebay.it/GEWISS-COMBIBLOC-CON-FONDO-IP55-2P+T-16A-230V-GW66...
>
>> That's very neat. Is the switch the black bar across the top of the
>> socket?
>
> Will you actually have to unplug the kiln that often? And since you said
> it has integral switching no need to worry about arcing. So why bother
> with a switched type? The CU is presumably nearby if you did need to
> isolate things quickly for any reason.
>
Such a solution would not (IMO) comply with regulation 537.4.2.5 which
effectively requires emergency switching at the socket outlet as table
53.2 does not allow the use of an IEC309 connector for emergency switching.
Frank Erskine
wrote:
>> >What does "interlocked" mean?
>>
>> It was explained in another post. To withdraw the plug the supply
>> must be switched off. This prevents someone unplugging it on load.
>> Arcs from 16A equipment are not too bad, but this sort of socket
>> goes up to 125A, which would be much more impressive if not somewhat
>> frightening.
>>
>
>So if I just fit an RCD and an interlocked socket, I would have to
>turn the supply off at the RCD to withdraw the plug? It's not enough
>to turn off the switch on the kiln?
No - it's a switched socket. Switching it on mechanically (at least on
the ones I've seen) locks the plug to prevent it being withdrawn. The
same mechanism prevents you from switching on unless there's a plug
in.
--
Frank Erskine
JP Coetzee
> it has integral switching no need to worry about arcing. So why bother
> with a switched type? The CU is presumably nearby if you did need to
> isolate things quickly for any reason.
>
The missus likes to turn the kiln off at the wall. That's pretty wise
in a wooden shed.
*waits for questions about fire security*
That switched outlet is pretty compact, and angled downward so the
cable will be out of the way. I like it.
Dave Osborne
> Dave Osborne<Dave...@SPAMymail.com>
> wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 15:08
> the shuttered type, and for an AC installation, shall preferably be of a
> type complying with BS1363."
>
OK.
> As I said, I wouldn't get too hung up for a workshop, but the intention is
> clear - stop kiddies sticking things in...
>
Agreed.
> Interlocking is the best way IMHO to achieve the spirit, but ensuring either
> unreachable sockets or a locked workshop would be other ways.
Agreed.
However, unfortunately, "unreachable sockets" are generally proscribed
and in this case would likely break one or more provisions of Reg 537
(Isolation and Switching) e.g. 537.4.2.5 "The means of operation shall
be readily accessible...".
Also, not so much a locked workshop, but a padlocked isolating switch
would be in order again as per various provisions of Reg 537.
===
OK, the Regs and the OSG are at odds then.
In the Regs it hinges on the interpretation of "household and similar use".
Reg. 553.1.3 allows for IEC309 connectors for low voltage circuits, but
Reg. 553.1.4 then effectively precludes them for "household and similar
use" because they are not shuttered.
However, the OSG recognises IEC309 connectors on a 16A radial circuit as
a standard circuit arrangement for household and similar use, but does
not prescribe interlocking in lieu of shuttering.
Section 20 of the Regs does not define shuttering and the word is not
indexed either, so unless someone can point to a regulation (or BS)
where shuttering is further defined, we would have to fall back on
regulation 120.3 and make the argument that interlocking is just as safe
as shuttering and may be implemented in lieu with impunity.
Cheers,
DaveyOZ
Harry Bloomfield
> We have a new kiln rated at 3.6kW. It requires a single-phase supply.
> 3600/230=15.7A. It has 16A 2P+E plug on it like this one:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:16A-plug.jpg
>
> In the shed I have a 30A ring with standard 13A dual-gang switched
> sockets. Can I use one of these:
> http://www.toolstation.com/images/library/stock/webbig/47166.jpg ?
>
> If not, what are those connectors for? And what is the best way to
> power the kiln?
>
> There is a consumer unit in the shed with space for another breaker.
>
> Many thanks.
You need to add another breaker rated 16amp and wire from that to a
dedicated 16amp socket and fit a 16amp plug (like that of your URL, but
a plug rather than the socket shown) to the kiln. The 16amp with an
attached 13amp (in the URL) is to enable a caravan to be plugged in to
the mains at home.
--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk
Andrew Gabriel
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> writes:
> In article <hkbm6v$tfe$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Andrew Gabriel <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <50e3bf3...@davenoise.co.uk>,
>> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> writes:
>> > In article <l2jim5dfjqjqmk8fd...@4ax.com>,
>> > David Hansen <SENDdavi...@spidacom.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> Fixed loads of up to 16A, protected by a suitable fuse or circuit
>> >> breaker, can be connected to ring mains. A socket is simply a means
>> >> of providing a connection point which does not need someone with
>> >> electrical skills to connect/disconnect the equipment.
>> >
>> > Are you absolutely certain about this?
>
>> Yes.
>
>> > I've never seen a device intended for this sort of use. FCUs are
>> > limited to 13 amps. Indeed it's now frowned upon to connect any
>> > sustained fixed load - like say an immersion - to a ring circuit, even
>> > within the 13 amp limit.
>
>> Not saying it's a good idea, but it's allowed, with a fuse
>> or breaker up to 16A.
>
>> Connecting the primary electric heating system (space or water)
>> to a ring is not allowed though. Supplementary heating and
>> small water heaters are allowed.
>
> Then I'd say a kiln would come under this in practice if not in name -
> since it's likely to be on for long periods.
I've no idea what the warm-up period and duty cycle are,
but you could well be right. This is not the case for a
domestic oven though, as warm-up is usually quite quick,
and then the duty cycle is low.
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
Andrew Gabriel
Dave Osborne <Dave...@SPAMymail.com> writes:
>
> Have to agree with you on this one Andy.
>
> IME, most workshops are wired so that each "machine position" has it's
> own radial circuit. There is usually only a 13A ring main for a bunch of
> 13A socket outlets for light-bench top use and then, if there are
> multiple benches, each one often has its own radial circuit with a local
> RCD.
>
> Notwithstanding whether it's allowed on the 17th, I would be inclined to
> install a 20A radial circuit (i.e min 2.5mm2 cable) with a 16A MCB
> dedicated for this equipment.
>
> OK, I've checked the 17th OSG and Appendix 8 Sec 8.3 allows for a radial
> final circuit using a 16A socket-outlet complying with BS EN 60309-2 (BS
> 4343).
>
> The use of an interlocked socket outlet is *not* prescribed.
> The use of a switched socket outlet is *not* prescribed.
>
> However, according to Appendix 10 of the OSG, whilst an IEC 309
> connector is good for isolation and functional switching (by virtue of
> pulling the plug), it is not good for emergency switching, so really,
> there should be an isolating switch adjacent to or incorporated with the
> socket outlet.
There is no requirement for emergency switching though.
If you're leaning on the kiln and getting burned, disconnecting
the supply quickly isn't going to make any difference.
That's not to say that having a switch isn't sensible, but it
would be for functional switching, not emergency switching.
> Having allowed for diversity (none in this case) a 20A radial circuit is
> acceptable, in which case, the number of sockets is unlimited.
>
> Minimum conductor size is 2.5/1.5 mm2 (Table 8A). Table 7.1 and Appendix
> 6 apply for grouping/derating.
--
David Hansen
<Dave...@SPAMymail.com> wrote this:-
>Section 20 of the Regs does not define shuttering and the word is not
>indexed either, so unless someone can point to a regulation (or BS)
>where shuttering is further defined, we would have to fall back on
>regulation 120.3 and make the argument that interlocking is just as safe
>as shuttering and may be implemented in lieu with impunity.
I would just list the sockets as an exception, something provided
for in the forms and regulations, and argue the case in court if it
came to that.
David Hansen
and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-
>I've no idea what the warm-up period and duty cycle are,
>but you could well be right. This is not the case for a
>domestic oven though, as warm-up is usually quite quick,
>and then the duty cycle is low.
I imagine that a kiln is a fairly steady load, I would consider it
to be at least as steady as an immersion heater, probably more
steady. However, that doesn't matter if the ring circuit is
otherwise lightly loaded, give it some work to do for once.
Given the spare way in this case it makes sense to wire a socket to
that in most cases. However, in other circumstances, if the ring
only powers a few hand tools, connecting the kiln will not be a
problem.
David Hansen
and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-
>There is no requirement for emergency switching though.
>If you're leaning on the kiln and getting burned, disconnecting
>the supply quickly isn't going to make any difference.
A point I was going to make. Emergency switching is essentially a
means for unskilled persons to turn off some bit of equipment which
can be stopped quickly from causing a danger, a drilling machine or
lathe being an example, largely things with motors which can rip
into human bodies. This might best be provided on the machine
itself, at the starter rather than on some out of the way wiring
point, where what is provided is a means of isolation, so that
skilled persons can work on the wiring to the equipment.
In this case I understand that the kiln has a switch on it, which
can be used as functional switching. If, for some reason, the kiln
or the socket has burst into flames then I certainly wouldn't try to
operate a switch which was beside the kiln at the socket, I value my
health too much, I would be heading towards the consumer unit to
switch everything off.
Clive George
> On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 17:55:22 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be
> and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-
>
>> There is no requirement for emergency switching though.
>> If you're leaning on the kiln and getting burned, disconnecting
>> the supply quickly isn't going to make any difference.
>
> A point I was going to make. Emergency switching is essentially a
> means for unskilled persons to turn off some bit of equipment which
> can be stopped quickly from causing a danger, a drilling machine or
> lathe being an example, largely things with motors which can rip
> into human bodies. This might best be provided on the machine
> itself, at the starter rather than on some out of the way wiring
> point, where what is provided is a means of isolation, so that
> skilled persons can work on the wiring to the equipment.
Isn't there a point to having it remote as well, so people seeing fred
being chopped up from the other side of the room can do something about
it? Yes, it depends enormously on the circumstances, but I would think
having a stop switch at eg near the door as well as the machine itself
would be appropriate.
(and of course this still doesn't apply to the kiln).
Frank Erskine
Does it need to be connected by plug and socket at all?
I'd be tempted to fit a metal-clad isolator adjacent to the kiln, then
hard-wire the flexible cord from the kiln through a gland on the
isolator.
--
Frank Erskine
Lurch
> Does it need to be connected by plug and socket at all?
>
response before I suggested ditching the plug and socket!
I'll just add the 'I agree' onto yours. ;)
--
Stuart
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
Dave Plowman (News)
Lurch <news@[sig]whitchurch.co.uk> wrote:
> On 03/02/2010 20:20, Frank Erskine wrote:
> > Does it need to be connected by plug and socket at all?
> >
> I've just read the whole thread looking for a slightly less newsgroupy
> response before I suggested ditching the plug and socket!
> I'll just add the 'I agree' onto yours. ;)
Since the plug is provided, an unswitched socket would have really no
disadvantages over hard wiring - and some advantages. Even if it was
rarely unplugged.
--
*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up
Lurch
> In article<hkd27u$1m0d$1...@adenine.netfront.net>,
> Lurch<news@[sig]whitchurch.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 03/02/2010 20:20, Frank Erskine wrote:
>>> Does it need to be connected by plug and socket at all?
>>>
>> I've just read the whole thread looking for a slightly less newsgroupy
>> response before I suggested ditching the plug and socket!
>
>> I'll just add the 'I agree' onto yours. ;)
>
> Since the plug is provided, an unswitched socket would have really no
> disadvantages over hard wiring - and some advantages. Even if it was
> rarely unplugged.
>
determined, and there is a strong feeling that a interlocked socket
should be used due to the shutter issue.
Unless it really needs to be truly portable, easiest, cheapest and
definitely compliant method of installing the kiln is to hard wire it
into an isolator on a new circuit run from the shed CU.
NT
> On 04/02/2010 00:26, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:> In article<hkd27u$1m0...@adenine.netfront.net>,
> > Lurch<news@[sig]whitchurch.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On 03/02/2010 20:20, Frank Erskine wrote:
> >>> Does it need to be connected by plug and socket at all?
>
> >> I've just read the whole thread looking for a slightly less newsgroupy
> >> response before I suggested ditching the plug and socket!
>
> >> I'll just add the 'I agree' onto yours. ;)
>
> > Since the plug is provided, an unswitched socket would have really no
> > disadvantages over hard wiring - and some advantages. Even if it was
> > rarely unplugged.
>
> Well no, but I would fit a switched one as the future usage cannot be
> determined, and there is a strong feeling that a interlocked socket
> should be used due to the shutter issue.
>
> Unless it really needs to be truly portable, easiest, cheapest and
> definitely compliant method of installing the kiln is to hard wire it
> into an isolator on a new circuit run from the shed CU.
Years ago we used to run 15A continuous loads on standard 13A plugs.
With metal clad sockets (MK IIRC) and plugs without sleeved pins they
were fine, no melting or fuse popping. But when sleeved pin MK plugs
were used they melted. I'm not recommending this of course, just for
curiosity.
NT
Andy Dingley
> Years ago we used to run 15A continuous loads on standard 13A plugs.
I've done loads of this over the years, chiefly welders, and had
little trouble (but as you say, use MK kit). Until you try to unplug
it, then you find the contacts are welded in place...
On the whole, I wouldn't recommend it. The worst risk is probably
chronic overheating, then the insulator failing and live contacts
dropping into contact with the earth. If you're not RCDing because
it's a leaky or inductive load, and it's it's fused at mongo current
anyway, then there's far too much risk of a firestarter arc developing
and neither safety provision tripping. That's how Americans burn their
workshops down.
NT
I was tempted to make a humorous suggestion involving a pc fan, but
there's always one that might think it a smart idea.
NT
Dave Plowman (News)
<06707c29-c431-4942...@f12g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
The alternative might be to use a 15 amp three round pin plug and socket -
if getting the BS4343 stuff is a problem. Present day versions are
shuttered. And according to my theatre pals these sockets will stand a
fair bit of overloading.
--
large*
js.b1
> The alternative might be to use a 15 amp three round pin plug and socket -
> if getting the BS4343 stuff is a problem. Present day versions are
> shuttered. And according to my theatre pals these sockets will stand a
> fair bit of overloading.
Voltage drop at the shed might actually make it draw 15A anyway.
3.6kW wasn't it... if that is the 240V rating it is 15.0A so ok.
That said, c.£20 delivered for a BS4343 Interlocked Socket isn't bad.
There is no chance of any problem re interlock and proposed EV
connectors using similar.
Dave Plowman (News)
<fc5e1ca3-e742-4bb1...@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>,
Just thought it gets round the problem of the flex exiting horizontally.
--
*Not all men are annoying. Some are dead.
js.b1
Couple of inches deep on a wall, bottom cable gland exit possible,
lockable in off position, IP54 16A are cheap, easy wire(*).
(*) By "easy wire" I mean their terminals are round-hole brass like a
13A plug, rather than Rotary Disconnectors which use an inverted V
cable clamp which has mandatory min cable size (otherwise the clamp is
tight but your cable is loose re fire).
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember David Hansen
<SENDdavi...@spidacom.co.uk> saying something like:
>>Fit a 16A socket as a spur above one of your normal sockets - as it's a
>>ring, it's good. Or run a radial from the CU.
>
>Only if the spur is suitably protected with a 16A circuit breaker.
Oh, ffs, need I spell that out?
David Hansen
Curmudgeon <grimly...@REMOVEgmail.com> wrote this:-
>>>Fit a 16A socket as a spur above one of your normal sockets - as it's a
>>>ring, it's good. Or run a radial from the CU.
>>
>>Only if the spur is suitably protected with a 16A circuit breaker.
>
>Oh, ffs, need I spell that out?
I think so, which is why I went to the trouble of typing it out.
I have seen a number spurs which were not properly protected. Almost
certainly installed by people who thought they knew what they were
doing.
rajni...@gmail.com
Sir what will happen if a European oven with 13A main fuse rating is used in India where Standard power plugs are rated 16A after changing European plug to the Indian plug
Brian Gaff
I'm assuming the voltages and cps are the same. If its fused at 13 amp then
why not. I'm assuming that you can fit normal fuses to their 16 amp plugs of
course If its not fused then that really depends on the safety rules over
there. Just don't call out the repair man as they might be a bit expensive!
Brian
--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please!
<rajni...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:34d9c4e1-3d34-4144...@googlegroups.com...
rajni...@gmail.com
Brian Gaff
--
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Blind user, so no pictures please!
<rajni...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:34d9c4e1-3d34-4144...@googlegroups.com...
Graham.
>On 16:07 22 Sep 2017, Brian Gaff wrote:
>>
>> Not a lot. I'm assuming the voltages and cps are the same. If
>> its fused at 13 amp then why not. I'm assuming that you can fit
>> normal fuses to their 16 amp plugs of course If its not fused
>> then that really depends on the safety rules over there. Just
>> don't call out the repair man as they might be a bit expensive!
>> Brian
>
>a factory tour and saying: "It looks as if it was put in by an
>Indian electrician". :)
Unlike HRH I don't suppose you are accustomed to being addressed as
"Sir".
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Scott
<bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>As \ISay if the right fuse is used cannot see a problem.
> Brian
system,
tabb...@gmail.com
> I have a reverse query
>
> Sir what will happen if a European oven with 13A main fuse rating is used in India where Standard power plugs are rated 16A after changing European plug to the Indian plug
NT
Rod Speed
"Scott" <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mimaschm4f48du3v4...@4ax.com...
> <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>As \ISay if the right fuse is used cannot see a problem.
>> Brian
> Do Indian plugs have fuses?
> I thought they used our old round pin system,
https://www.indiaquickfacts.com/content/india-electricity-electrical-plugs-converters-electric-sockets-electric-adapters
Rob Morley
"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Scott" <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:mimaschm4f48du3v4...@4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 17:01:30 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
> > <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > Do Indian plugs have fuses?
>
> Nope.
>
> > I thought they used our old round pin system,
>
> Nope, the new europlug and their own unique higher power plug.
> https://www.indiaquickfacts.com/content/india-electricity-electrical-plugs-converters-electric-sockets-electric-adapters
>
too young to remember them?