Isolating electric circuits while working.

[Ivan Dobsky]

I've always switched off the whole lot at the consumer unit, but the bloke
next door but one says he's happy to just pull out one of the fuses. I know
what he's saying, and I understand why he's not killed himself yet, but I'm
too much of a coward to do this myself. My feeling is, with the fuse pulled,
the neutral is still connected, and if you're unlucky, something could
happen outside of the property which might make it suddenly become live. Or
am I being too cautious? It is sometimes a pain having to switch everything
off, and if pulling the relevant fuse was sufficient, I'd rather do that.

[dochol...@gmail.com]

How much do you trust the chap who installed the system? I've found quite a few cases where the fuse you need to pull isn't the one you'd expect (e.g. 13A sockets spurred off immersion heater wiring), so that's my main worry when jut pulling one fuse.
I wouldn't expect the switch on the consumer unit to disconnect the neutral, anyway...

[Bob Eager]

The big double pole master switch on the consumer unit (to which the OP
is undoubtedly referring) disconnects the neutral, by definition.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

[Ivan Dobsky]

<dochol...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e3382f83-420b-46e3...@googlegroups.com...

> On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:18:12 PM UTC+1, Ivan Dobsky wrote:
>> I've always switched off the whole lot at the consumer unit, but the
>> bloke
>> next door but one says he's happy to just pull out one of the fuses. I
>> know
>> what he's saying, and I understand why he's not killed himself yet, but
>> I'm
>> too much of a coward to do this myself. My feeling is, with the fuse
>> pulled,
>> the neutral is still connected, and if you're unlucky, something could
>> happen outside of the property which might make it suddenly become live.
>> Or >
>> am I being too cautious? It is sometimes a pain having to switch
>> everything
>> off, and if pulling the relevant fuse was sufficient, I'd rather do that.
>
> How much do you trust the chap who installed the system? I've found quite
> a few cases where the fuse

It seems mostly okay, but our downstairs lights are daisy-chained together,
and a failure to properly connect an earth wire to one of the roses left
two-thirds of them unearthed. This only came to light when I decided to try
and find out why a metal-faced switch felt faintly tingly.

So, I can't trust him 100%

>you need to pull isn't the one you'd expect (e.g. 13A sockets spurred off
>immersion heater wiring), so >that's my main worry when jut pulling one
>fuse.
> I wouldn't expect the switch on the consumer unit to disconnect the
> neutral, anyway...

I'd have thought it was a double-pole switch, but I don't really know.

[Ivan Dobsky]

"Bob Eager" <news...@eager.cx> wrote in message
news:b2avue...@mid.individual.net...

> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 04:31:48 -0700, docholliday93 wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:18:12 PM UTC+1, Ivan Dobsky wrote:
>>> I've always switched off the whole lot at the consumer unit, but the
>>> bloke next door but one says he's happy to just pull out one of the
>>> fuses. I know what he's saying, and I understand why he's not killed
>>> himself yet, but I'm too much of a coward to do this myself. My feeling
>>> is, with the fuse pulled, the neutral is still connected, and if you're
>>> unlucky, something could happen outside of the property which might
>>> make it suddenly become live. Or >
>>> am I being too cautious? It is sometimes a pain having to switch
>>> everything off, and if pulling the relevant fuse was sufficient, I'd
>>> rather do that.
>>
>> How much do you trust the chap who installed the system? I've found
>> quite a few cases where the fuse you need to pull isn't the one you'd
>> expect (e.g. 13A sockets spurred off immersion heater wiring), so that's
>> my main worry when jut pulling one fuse.
>> I wouldn't expect the switch on the consumer unit to disconnect the
>> neutral, anyway...
>
> The big double pole master switch on the consumer unit (to which the OP
> is undoubtedly referring) disconnects the neutral, by definition.

I've never really thought about it before, I just always assumed that was
the case.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <co-dnXoxj6Jo3F3M...@eclipse.net.uk>,

I'm happy to work on something here by just switching off the relevant
MCB, but I wired this place myself. I'd not do it without checking things
elsewhere.

Trouble is if the circuit is also RCD protected. There's a good chance
you'll trip that when working on things anyway.

--
*Do they ever shut up on your planet?

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Ivan Dobsky]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:535db78...@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <co-dnXoxj6Jo3F3M...@eclipse.net.uk>,
> Ivan Dobsky <iv...@dobsky.com> wrote:
>> I've always switched off the whole lot at the consumer unit, but the
>> bloke next door but one says he's happy to just pull out one of the
>> fuses. I know what he's saying, and I understand why he's not killed
>> himself yet, but I'm too much of a coward to do this myself. My feeling
>> is, with the fuse pulled, the neutral is still connected, and if you're
>> unlucky, something could happen outside of the property which might
>> make it suddenly become live. Or am I being too cautious? It is
>> sometimes a pain having to switch everything off, and if pulling the
>> relevant fuse was sufficient, I'd rather do that.
>
> I'm happy to work on something here by just switching off the relevant
> MCB, but I wired this place myself. I'd not do it without checking things
> elsewhere.
>
> Trouble is if the circuit is also RCD protected. There's a good chance
> you'll trip that when working on things anyway.

No RCDs. But I'm not so much worried about the possibility of faulty wiring
in the house. I'm just not entirely sure that there isn't something 'out
there' (e.g. some fault or condition at the substation, or someone in the
vicinity trying to bypass his electricity meter) that might make the neutral
wire become unexpectedly dangerous.

[tony sayer]

In article <co-dnXoxj6Jo3F3M...@eclipse.net.uk>, Ivan

Dobsky <iv...@dobsky.com> scribeth thus

If its your house and you did the wring then go and pull the fuse.

Also short the live and neutral on the circuit your just about to work
on it will go flash bang if its alive _but_ You stand a much better
change of being alive afterwards;)..

If you pull just the fuse and other circuits are live and its RCD
protected then a neutral earth short on the cables your working on will
if any circuits elsewhere are pulling a bit of power will cause the RCB
to trip.


Best bet is to switch it OFF at the main switch and pull the fuse/s on
the circuit your working on and *** TAKE IT WITH *** you!.

I once had a real Wally put the bloody thing back whilst I was working
on that circuit I almost thumped him one to try to knock some bloody
sense into the prat after I got a severe belt !!!...


--
Tony Sayer

[tony sayer]

In article <WeudnagA1YuA0V3M...@eclipse.net.uk>, Ivan
Dobsky <iv...@dobsky.com> scribeth thus
>

>"Bob Eager" <news...@eager.cx> wrote in message
>news:b2avue...@mid.individual.net...
>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 04:31:48 -0700, docholliday93 wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:18:12 PM UTC+1, Ivan Dobsky wrote:
>>>> I've always switched off the whole lot at the consumer unit, but the
>>>> bloke next door but one says he's happy to just pull out one of the
>>>> fuses. I know what he's saying, and I understand why he's not killed
>>>> himself yet, but I'm too much of a coward to do this myself. My feeling
>>>> is, with the fuse pulled, the neutral is still connected, and if you're
>>>> unlucky, something could happen outside of the property which might
>>>> make it suddenly become live. Or >
>>>> am I being too cautious? It is sometimes a pain having to switch
>>>> everything off, and if pulling the relevant fuse was sufficient, I'd
>>>> rather do that.
>>>
>>> How much do you trust the chap who installed the system? I've found
>>> quite a few cases where the fuse you need to pull isn't the one you'd
>>> expect (e.g. 13A sockets spurred off immersion heater wiring), so that's
>>> my main worry when jut pulling one fuse.
>>> I wouldn't expect the switch on the consumer unit to disconnect the
>>> neutral, anyway...
>>
>> The big double pole master switch on the consumer unit (to which the OP
>> is undoubtedly referring) disconnects the neutral, by definition.
>
>I've never really thought about it before, I just always assumed that was
>the case.

Confucius he say .....

"Assumption was the mother of all fuck up's";!)...

>
>> Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
>> My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
>> Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me �30 a post
>> *lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor
>
>

BTW where is olde a w_tom did he get struck down somewhere;?..
--
Tony Sayer

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <tpSdnRo6G9d1zV3M...@eclipse.net.uk>,

Ivan Dobsky <iv...@dobsky.com> wrote:
> > I'm happy to work on something here by just switching off the relevant
> > MCB, but I wired this place myself. I'd not do it without checking
> > things elsewhere.
> >
> > Trouble is if the circuit is also RCD protected. There's a good chance
> > you'll trip that when working on things anyway.

> No RCDs. But I'm not so much worried about the possibility of faulty
> wiring in the house. I'm just not entirely sure that there isn't
> something 'out there' (e.g. some fault or condition at the substation,
> or someone in the vicinity trying to bypass his electricity meter) that
> might make the neutral wire become unexpectedly dangerous.

Do you worry about getting hit by lightening too? ;-)

--
*I have plenty of talent and vision. I just don't care.

[Ivan Dobsky]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message

news:535dbb2...@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <tpSdnRo6G9d1zV3M...@eclipse.net.uk>,
> Ivan Dobsky <iv...@dobsky.com> wrote:
>> > I'm happy to work on something here by just switching off the relevant
>> > MCB, but I wired this place myself. I'd not do it without checking
>> > things elsewhere.
>> >
>> > Trouble is if the circuit is also RCD protected. There's a good chance
>> > you'll trip that when working on things anyway.
>
>> No RCDs. But I'm not so much worried about the possibility of faulty
>> wiring in the house. I'm just not entirely sure that there isn't
>> something 'out there' (e.g. some fault or condition at the substation,
>> or someone in the vicinity trying to bypass his electricity meter) that
>> might make the neutral wire become unexpectedly dangerous.
>
> Do you worry about getting hit by lightening too? ;-)

I know, I know :-) But some things are avoidable, and I have a family to
think about.

[Ivan Dobsky]

"tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:HfACJvT6...@bancom.co.uk...

> In article <co-dnXoxj6Jo3F3M...@eclipse.net.uk>, Ivan
> Dobsky <iv...@dobsky.com> scribeth thus
>>I've always switched off the whole lot at the consumer unit, but the bloke
>>next door but one says he's happy to just pull out one of the fuses. I
>>know
>>what he's saying, and I understand why he's not killed himself yet, but
>>I'm
>>too much of a coward to do this myself. My feeling is, with the fuse
>>pulled,
>>the neutral is still connected, and if you're unlucky, something could
>>happen outside of the property which might make it suddenly become live.
>>Or
>>am I being too cautious? It is sometimes a pain having to switch
>>everything
>>off, and if pulling the relevant fuse was sufficient, I'd rather do that.
>>
>>
>
> If its your house and you did the wring then go and pull the fuse.
>
> Also short the live and neutral on the circuit your just about to work
> on it will go flash bang if its alive _but_ You stand a much better
> change of being alive afterwards;)..

I like that idea!

[Mark Bluemel]

On Jun 18, 1:22 pm, tony sayer <t...@bancom.co.uk> wrote:

> Best bet is to switch it OFF at the main switch and pull the fuse/s on
> the circuit your working on and  *** TAKE IT WITH ***   you!.

The rule when untangling carrier bags from the propeller of a canal
boat is that the person doing it has the ignition key in their
pocket...

[charles]

In article <PWYvt.48593$ja6....@fx18.am4>,
Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:


> Sparky (older chap) who fitted some lights when we moved in put the fuse
> in his pocket. He said when he was an apprentice, his gaffer had removed
> a fuse in a warehouse they were working in, and placed it on top of the
> fusebox. Of course somebody wondered why the lights were off,
> investigated, replaced the fuse and the gaffer fell off a ladder to his
> death when he got a shock. Stories like that stick with you.

we had a science teacher at school whose hair was completely white. A
similar thing had happened to him, but he wasn't on a ladder.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[dochol...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:51:42 PM UTC+1, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 04:31:48 -0700, docholliday93 wrote:
>

<snip>

>
> > How much do you trust the chap who installed the system? I've found
> > quite a few cases where the fuse you need to pull isn't the one you'd
> > expect (e.g. 13A sockets spurred off immersion heater wiring), so that's
> > my main worry when jut pulling one fuse.
> > I wouldn't expect the switch on the consumer unit to disconnect the
> > neutral, anyway...
>
> The big double pole master switch on the consumer unit (to which the OP
> is undoubtedly referring) disconnects the neutral, by definition.
>
>

OK, perhaps I should have said I wouldn't 100% trust it - having seen cases where it didn't - and one where it disconnected the neutral but not the live...

[charles]

In article <116b02b9-7cfc-4a8a...@googlegroups.com>,

when altering the lighting in this house, I found a junction box with red,
black joined to black, red to leave.

[c...@isbd.net]

**ALWAYS** check the circuit that you're working on is disconnected
after pulling the fuse or switching the MCB. I usually use a lamp or a
drill plugged into the circuit in question and do a check before (e.g.
lamp on) and a check after (lamp off).

--
Chris Green
·

[whisky-dave]

On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:18:12 PM UTC+1, Ivan Dobsky wrote:

> I've always switched off the whole lot at the consumer unit, but the bloke
>
> next door but one says he's happy to just pull out one of the fuses.

I did a ceiling light for a friend, I switched off at the consumer unit.
I thought bwell 15 mins job, I'll just leave everything off.
Two hours later I finished.

Usually I switch off, remove the fuse on the circuit I'm working on, turn everythig back on and check with a neon screwdriver that I've pulled the right fuse.

>
> what he's saying, and I understand why he's not killed himself yet, but I'm
>
> too much of a coward to do this myself.

Well I wouldn;t call it being a coward.

> My feeling is, with the fuse pulled,
>
> the neutral is still connected, and if you're unlucky, something could
>
> happen outside of the property which might make it suddenly become live. Or
>
> am I being too cautious? It is sometimes a pain having to switch everything
>
> off, and if pulling the relevant fuse was sufficient, I'd rather do that.

Think you're beingn slighly over cautious, nothing wrong with that unless you're being paid by the hour ;-)
I tend to switch everything off (or as much as possible) before switching the CU off or back on, just to avoid surges while I'm close to the CU. :)

[PeterC]

I do that but, as lamps are unreliable and can blow at any secons, I turn
the circuit on again just to check, then off.
Several times I've used a mains radio in the same way where line of sight
was an issue.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

[newshound]

I find a "volt stick" much easier (check before and after that it is
working via a socket or suitable mains lead)

[ARW]

A couple of weeks ago I tested a circuit was live, removed the "suggested"
fuse, checked that the circuit was dead and then checked the tester was
still working on another circuit. All OK

Bloody apprentice destroyed my hacksaw blade when he chopped through the
live armoured cable:-)

It turned out that one of the leads on the tester was faulty and it had
shown dead when it should not have done.

And a volt stick is no use on an armoured cable.

--
Adam

[Scott M]

Neutral is generally earth or earthed so it /shouldn't/ be able to get
particularly high.

I'll happily pull a fuse or trip the MCB but behave as if I'm dealing
with a live live.

Scott

[ARW]

For a TT supply you are supposed to switch the neutral on the circuit you
are working on.


--
Adam

[Brian Gaff]

Much depends on your view of the world and how much work you are doing and
whether anyone else is liable to do something stupid.
If I was alone then I'd just pull the fuse, but if others are about, Id
bloody well switch of and tape a huge sign over the switch saying please do
not throw this switch or similar!

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Ivan Dobsky" <iv...@dobsky.com> wrote in message
news:co-dnXoxj6Jo3F3M...@eclipse.net.uk...

[Brian Gaff]

Some do some don't, strangely some really old ones do disconnect the
neutral. Not seen the current crop for obvious reasons.
I guess its all fine unless there is a strange event.

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active

<dochol...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e3382f83-420b-46e3...@googlegroups.com...

[Scott M]

ARW wrote:

> Scott M wrote:

>> Neutral is generally earth or earthed so it /shouldn't/ be able to get
>> particularly high.
>>
>> I'll happily pull a fuse or trip the MCB but behave as if I'm dealing
>> with a live live.
>
> For a TT supply you are supposed to switch the neutral on the circuit you
> are working on.

I nearly put a caveat for TT, but settled on "generally" as I don't know
the regs. I shall mentally file that piece of info (or just read the
bloody regs one day, but there's only so many hours in the day ;-) )

Scott

[ARW]

Note the words "supposed to isolate":-)

Only the pen pushers care about it.

--
Adam

[tony sayer]

In article <kpq5rc$flk$1...@dont-email.me>, ARW <adamwadsworth@blueyonder.c
o.uk> scribeth thus

I think .. with those apprentices you'll be on a murder charge one day
'ere long;!..

Course we'll all come as character witnesses to say you were provoked
beyond reasonable human endurance;!..

Do any of them ever graduate at all?...
--
Tony Sayer

[Mike Barnes]

ARW <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk>:

>A couple of weeks ago I tested a circuit was live, removed the "suggested"
>fuse, checked that the circuit was dead and then checked the tester was
>still working on another circuit. All OK
>
>Bloody apprentice destroyed my hacksaw blade when he chopped through the
>live armoured cable:-)
>
>It turned out that one of the leads on the tester was faulty and it had
>shown dead when it should not have done.

Best to test the tester on a known live circuit after testing the
hopefully dead circuit.

--
Mike Barnes

[dennis@home]

The rule is "get someone else to do it".
They are diesels and turning the ignition off doesn't stop it firing.

[ARW]

That's what I did.

"A couple of weeks ago I tested a circuit was live, removed the "suggested"
fuse, checked that the circuit was dead and then checked the tester was
still working on another circuit. All OK"

--
Adam

[ARW]

They do. And it is nice to see them graduate.

--
Adam

[Mike Tomlinson]

En el art�culo <e3382f83-420b-46e3...@googlegroups.com>,
dochol...@gmail.com escribi�:

>I wouldn't expect the switch on the consumer unit to disconnect the neutral,
>anyway...

I would. It has to be double pole.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[Vir Campestris]

On 18/06/2013 15:53, c...@isbd.net wrote:
> **ALWAYS** check the circuit that you're working on is disconnected
> after pulling the fuse or switching the MCB. I usually use a lamp or a
> drill plugged into the circuit in question and do a check before (e.g.
> lamp on) and a check after (lamp off).

Me too. Small chance that my test device will fail at the exact moment I
pull the fuse.

Andy

[Mike Tomlinson]

En el art�culo <tpSdnRo6G9d1zV3M...@eclipse.net.uk>, Ivan
Dobsky <iv...@dobsky.com> escribi�:

>I'm just not entirely sure that there isn't something 'out
>there' (e.g. some fault or condition at the substation, or someone in the
>vicinity trying to bypass his electricity meter) that might make the neutral
>wire become unexpectedly dangerous.

Most installations are T-N-C-S, so neutral and earth are the same at the
supplier main fuse. To energise the house neutral, you would also have
to have an earthing fault. Can't see that being likely.

[Mike Barnes]

ARW <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk>:

Oops, so you did. Intermittent faults are a bugger.

--
Mike Barnes

[The Other Mike]

Ever seen a house with a T-N-C-S supply that was wired with the L and N meter
tails reversed into the consumer unit?

I have. It was probably in that state for many months, possibly even a few
years. Everything in the house 'worked' but there were lots of weird effects
with neon indicators on sockets that came on when the switch was turned off.
Not sure if you'd class it as an earthing fault though :)


--

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <tr869a-...@chris.zbmc.eu>,

<c...@isbd.net> wrote:
> > How much do you trust the chap who installed the system? I've found
> > quite a few cases where the fuse you need to pull isn't the one you'd
> > expect (e.g. 13A sockets spurred off immersion heater wiring), so
> > that's my main worry when jut pulling one fuse.

> **ALWAYS** check the circuit that you're working on is disconnected
> after pulling the fuse or switching the MCB. I usually use a lamp or a
> drill plugged into the circuit in question and do a check before (e.g.
> lamp on) and a check after (lamp off).

That checks the circuit is no longer made - but not that it's the line
which is disconnected.

--
*Therapy is expensive, poppin' bubble wrap is cheap! You choose.

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Frank Erskine]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 16:32:33 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <tr869a-...@chris.zbmc.eu>,
> <c...@isbd.net> wrote:
>> > How much do you trust the chap who installed the system? I've found
>> > quite a few cases where the fuse you need to pull isn't the one you'd
>> > expect (e.g. 13A sockets spurred off immersion heater wiring), so
>> > that's my main worry when jut pulling one fuse.
>
>> **ALWAYS** check the circuit that you're working on is disconnected
>> after pulling the fuse or switching the MCB. I usually use a lamp or a
>> drill plugged into the circuit in question and do a check before (e.g.
>> lamp on) and a check after (lamp off).
>
>That checks the circuit is no longer made - but not that it's the line
>which is disconnected.

There's still lot to be said for a neon screwdriver - used sensibly
and knowledgeably.

--
Frank Erskine

[The Medway Handyman]

Or even better, a volt stick.
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TMPL107.html

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 20:29:45 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

>> The rule when untangling carrier bags from the propeller of a
canal
>> boat is that the person doing it has the ignition key in their
>> pocket...
>
> The rule is "get someone else to do it".

Yeah, some canal water is pretty foul, there is a section some where
that down stream of a sewage works...

> They are diesels and turning the ignition off doesn't stop it firing.

Lock (or tie) the gear leaver into neutral and attach a big notice.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:35:22 +0100, newshound wrote:

> I find a "volt stick" much easier (check before and after that it is
> working via a socket or suitable mains lead)

+1, test your tester before and after testing, particulary if it says
"dead".

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 13:58:16 +0100, Ivan Dobsky wrote:

>> Also short the live and neutral on the circuit your just about to
work
>> on it will go flash bang if its alive _but_ You stand a much
better
>> change of being alive afterwards;)..
>
> I like that idea!

Think I much prefer testing with a volt stick first then shorting.
The flash/bang on a ring can still spray molten metal about.

SIDE: Switch off, Isolate, Dump, Earth.

>> Best bet is to switch it OFF at the main switch and pull the
fuse/s on
>> the circuit your working on and *** TAKE IT WITH *** you!.

Not so easy to do with MCBs. But you can get locking thingies.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 21:40:16 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

>> I wouldn't expect the switch on the consumer unit to disconnect
the
>> neutral, anyway...
>
> I would. It has to be double pole.

Define "switch".

The main isolator "switch" and any RCD "switches"(*) are double pole
but MCB "switches" are single pole.

(*) Are RCBO's double pole? They have to monitor the relevant
circuits neutral current but that doesn't mean they have to switch
it.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Adam Funk]

On 2013-06-18, tony sayer wrote:

> In article <kpq5rc$flk$1...@dont-email.me>, ARW <adamwadsworth@blueyonder.c
> o.uk> scribeth thus

>>A couple of weeks ago I tested a circuit was live, removed the "suggested"
>>fuse, checked that the circuit was dead and then checked the tester was
>>still working on another circuit. All OK
>>
>>Bloody apprentice destroyed my hacksaw blade when he chopped through the
>>live armoured cable:-)
>>
>>It turned out that one of the leads on the tester was faulty and it had
>>shown dead when it should not have done.
>>
>>And a volt stick is no use on an armoured cable.
>>
>
> I think .. with those apprentices you'll be on a murder charge one day
> 'ere long;!..
>
> Course we'll all come as character witnesses to say you were provoked
> beyond reasonable human endurance;!..
>
> Do any of them ever graduate at all?...

100% of the survivors graduate! ;-)

[Adam Funk]

Interesting. How does that work?

[polygonum]

On 19/06/2013 11:30, Huge wrote:
> On 2013-06-18, Ivan Dobsky <iv...@dobsky.com> wrote:
>>
>> "tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:HfACJvT6...@bancom.co.uk...
>
>
>>> If its your house and you did the wring then go and pull the fuse.

>>>
>>> Also short the live and neutral on the circuit your just about to work
>>> on it will go flash bang if its alive _but_ You stand a much better
>>> change of being alive afterwards;)..
>>
>> I like that idea!
>

> S'what I always do - watching that damn SIDE (*) public information film
> when off sick from school must have sunk in.
>
> (*
> S witch off
> I solate
> D ump
> E arth)
>

What if you've already had your morning dump in the earth closet?

--
Rod

[tony sayer]

In article <b2dfig...@mid.individual.net>, Huge
<Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> scribeth thus

>On 2013-06-18, Ivan Dobsky <iv...@dobsky.com> wrote:
>>
>> "tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:HfACJvT6...@bancom.co.uk...
>
>
>>> If its your house and you did the wring then go and pull the fuse.
>>>
>>> Also short the live and neutral on the circuit your just about to work
>>> on it will go flash bang if its alive _but_ You stand a much better
>>> change of being alive afterwards;)..
>>
>> I like that idea!
>
>S'what I always do - watching that damn SIDE (*) public information film
>when off sick from school must have sunk in.
>
>(*
>S witch off
>I solate
>D ump
>E arth)
>

They ought .. instead of transmitting cheap yank TV drivel during the day ..
TX films like that, never forgot the message of that one;!...


--
Tony Sayer

[tony sayer]

In article <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk>, Dave
Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> scribeth thus

>On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 13:58:16 +0100, Ivan Dobsky wrote:
>
>>> Also short the live and neutral on the circuit your just about to
>work
>>> on it will go flash bang if its alive _but_ You stand a much
>better
>>> change of being alive afterwards;)..
>>
>> I like that idea!
>
>Think I much prefer testing with a volt stick first then shorting.
>The flash/bang on a ring can still spray molten metal about.

In fact many years ago now when I worked at Pye TVT someone there did
that, there was quite a large bang on a 415 volt buss bar IIRC..

In fact it was he who told us young 'uns to do just that!..


Used to have a bit of fun from time to time by putting the buzzer boxes
we used to have for "buzzing" circuits thru the wring, inside
transformer cabinets so they sounded like the were working. One very
crafty apprentice wired some panel lights to a battery to make it all
look as it was live;!.

Some 15 kV in those cabs at quite a few amps capacity for the
Klystron's..

>
>SIDE: Switch off, Isolate, Dump, Earth.
>
>>> Best bet is to switch it OFF at the main switch and pull the
>fuse/s on
>>> the circuit your working on and *** TAKE IT WITH *** you!.
>
>Not so easy to do with MCBs. But you can get locking thingies.
>

Indeed you can and at least a lump of wire thru it Might be sufficient
to tell someone that someone's working elsewhere on that?..
--
Tony Sayer

[Rick Hughes]

On 18/06/2013 12:18, Ivan Dobsky wrote:
> I've always switched off the whole lot at the consumer unit, but the bloke
> next door but one says he's happy to just pull out one of the fuses. I know
> what he's saying, and I understand why he's not killed himself yet, but I'm
> too much of a coward to do this myself. My feeling is, with the fuse pulled,
> the neutral is still connected, and if you're unlucky, something could
> happen outside of the property which might make it suddenly become live. Or
> am I being too cautious? It is sometimes a pain having to switch everything
> off, and if pulling the relevant fuse was sufficient, I'd rather do that.

When I worked in Hi-Voltage testing there was always the crowbar
protection... once told the cct was isolated you dropped a bar across
live & earth to ensure it was safe..

[tony sayer]

In article <VpOdnWDddao3B1zM...@bt.com>, Rick Hughes
<rick_...@remove-me.btconnect.com> scribeth thus

Thats what the SIDE system used to do in high power TV transmitters you
opened the one switch and the other used to crowbar across the HT lines
to discharge the capacitors huge 32 uF ones at 20 odd kV paper type they
could recover a charge given a short while hence the short circuiting
system.. Interlocked so that you couldn't closer them with the mains
switch in the on position and it had a A and B key system so when off it
released the keys needed to open all the other cabinets up ..

Unless you had a duplicate A key then you could bypass the safely
systems.

Someone did that out in the wilds of Borneo many years ago, no one heard
from him for a while but they found him .. bones picked clean by the
local wildlife after he got into a cabinet with the power on;(...

--
Tony Sayer

[F Murtz]

It takes a bit of sensibility as they light up on almost everything I
suppose if you trust that the driver is working a complete lack of light
is an indication.

[F Murtz]

ARW wrote:
> newshound wrote:
>> On 18/06/2013 17:10, PeterC wrote:
>>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:53:17 +0100, c...@isbd.net wrote:
>>>
>>>> dochol...@gmail.com wrote:

>>>>> On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:18:12 PM UTC+1, Ivan Dobsky wrote:
>>>>>> I've always switched off the whole lot at the consumer unit, but
>>>>>> the bloke next door but one says he's happy to just pull out one
>>>>>> of the fuses. I know what he's saying, and I understand why he's
>>>>>> not killed himself yet, but I'm too much of a coward to do this
>>>>>> myself. My feeling is, with the fuse pulled, the neutral is still
>>>>>> connected, and if you're unlucky, something could happen outside
>>>>>> of the property which might make it suddenly become live. Or > am
>>>>>> I being too cautious? It is sometimes a pain having to switch
>>>>>> everything off, and if pulling the relevant fuse was sufficient,
>>>>>> I'd rather do that.
>>>>>

>>>>> How much do you trust the chap who installed the system? I've
>>>>> found quite a few cases where the fuse you need to pull isn't the
>>>>> one you'd expect (e.g. 13A sockets spurred off immersion heater
>>>>> wiring), so that's my main worry when jut pulling one fuse.
>>>>
>>>> **ALWAYS** check the circuit that you're working on is disconnected
>>>> after pulling the fuse or switching the MCB. I usually use a lamp
>>>> or a drill plugged into the circuit in question and do a check
>>>> before (e.g. lamp on) and a check after (lamp off).
>>>

>>> I do that but, as lamps are unreliable and can blow at any secons, I
>>> turn the circuit on again just to check, then off.
>>> Several times I've used a mains radio in the same way where line of
>>> sight was an issue.
>>>

>> I find a "volt stick" much easier (check before and after that it is
>> working via a socket or suitable mains lead)
>

> A couple of weeks ago I tested a circuit was live, removed the "suggested"
> fuse, checked that the circuit was dead and then checked the tester was
> still working on another circuit. All OK
>
> Bloody apprentice destroyed my hacksaw blade when he chopped through the
> live armoured cable:-)
>
> It turned out that one of the leads on the tester was faulty and it had
> shown dead when it should not have done.
>
> And a volt stick is no use on an armoured cable.
>

Don't you put your fingers on both wires before letting the apprentice
at it?

[John Rumm]

On 18/06/2013 13:24, tony sayer wrote:
> In article <WeudnagA1YuA0V3M...@eclipse.net.uk>, Ivan
> Dobsky <iv...@dobsky.com> scribeth thus
>>
>> "Bob Eager" <news...@eager.cx> wrote in message
>> news:b2avue...@mid.individual.net...

>>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 04:31:48 -0700, docholliday93 wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:18:12 PM UTC+1, Ivan Dobsky wrote:
>>>>> I've always switched off the whole lot at the consumer unit, but the
>>>>> bloke next door but one says he's happy to just pull out one of the
>>>>> fuses. I know what he's saying, and I understand why he's not killed
>>>>> himself yet, but I'm too much of a coward to do this myself. My feeling
>>>>> is, with the fuse pulled, the neutral is still connected, and if you're
>>>>> unlucky, something could happen outside of the property which might
>>>>> make it suddenly become live. Or >
>>>>> am I being too cautious? It is sometimes a pain having to switch
>>>>> everything off, and if pulling the relevant fuse was sufficient, I'd
>>>>> rather do that.
>>>>
>>>> How much do you trust the chap who installed the system? I've found
>>>> quite a few cases where the fuse you need to pull isn't the one you'd
>>>> expect (e.g. 13A sockets spurred off immersion heater wiring), so that's
>>>> my main worry when jut pulling one fuse.

>>>> I wouldn't expect the switch on the consumer unit to disconnect the
>>>> neutral, anyway...
>>>

>>> The big double pole master switch on the consumer unit (to which the OP
>>> is undoubtedly referring) disconnects the neutral, by definition.
>>
>> I've never really thought about it before, I just always assumed that was
>> the case.
>
>
> Confucius he say .....
>
> "Assumption was the mother of all fuck up's";!)...
>
>>
>>> Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
>>> My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
>>> Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me Ł30 a post
>>> *lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor
>>
>>
> BTW where is olde a w_tom did he get struck down somewhere;?..

I suspect Bob's handy tag line has bolloxed his search triggers such
that any real comment he may care about is now lost in the noise of
false positives ;-)




--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[John Rumm]

Inductive coupling I would imagine. A sensible addition to any
electrical tool kit IMHO.

[John Rumm]

On 18/06/2013 18:41, ARW wrote:

>
> A couple of weeks ago I tested a circuit was live, removed the "suggested"
> fuse, checked that the circuit was dead and then checked the tester was
> still working on another circuit. All OK
>
> Bloody apprentice destroyed my hacksaw blade when he chopped through the
> live armoured cable:-)

Bet that woke him up with a jump ;-)

[newshound]

On 19/06/2013 09:34, Adam Funk wrote:

Presumably, a tuned circuit looking for what, in the old days, we would
have called "mains hum" and lighting up when it finds it. I remember
tracing circuits with a transistor radio. Unlike the neon screwdriver,
it works through the insulation. Like neons, you can get a "false
positive" where an isolated conductor has picked up volts from a live
one by induction. But neons sometimes go intermittent because of their
crude construction; IME you are less likely to get a false negative from
a volt stick.

[John Rumm]

On 18/06/2013 12:18, Ivan Dobsky wrote:

> I've always switched off the whole lot at the consumer unit, but the bloke
> next door but one says he's happy to just pull out one of the fuses. I know
> what he's saying, and I understand why he's not killed himself yet, but I'm
> too much of a coward to do this myself. My feeling is, with the fuse pulled,
> the neutral is still connected, and if you're unlucky, something could
> happen outside of the property which might make it suddenly become live. Or
> am I being too cautious?

Its appropriate to be cautious, and you rightly recognise that there are
still risks working on a circuit with the neutral connected. One of the
most common problems with modern installations is that its very easy to
trip the RCD protecting a circuit with a neutral to earth short while
working on it.

> It is sometimes a pain having to switch everything
> off, and if pulling the relevant fuse was sufficient, I'd rather do that.

If you are going to do extensive work[1] on a circuit, then its safest
to turn it off, and then open the CU and disconnect its neutral from the
neutral bus bar. (if someone has wired it nicely, it may even be in the
numbered position to match that of the MCB!). Once its disconnected,
your only real risk is from a cross connection to another circuit.

Testing your tester on the working circuit first is sensible. Include
tests between each pole and earth as well. Disconnect and then repeat.
That will pick up most of the possible non conventional wiring issues.
For complete peace of mind, then test the tester on a working circuit
again.

[1] If I were just changing a lightswitch or similar, I would probably
just turn off the MCB at the CU and leave the neutral connected. (I also
have the advantage of having wired the CU in the first place and tested
all the circuits, so I know what is connected to what!)

[John Rumm]

I would not... I have seen them light when touched to neutral, but not
when touched to live, simply because I was sufficiently coupled to live
at the time.

[John Rumm]

On 19/06/2013 09:40, Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 21:40:16 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
>
>>> I wouldn't expect the switch on the consumer unit to disconnect
> the
>>> neutral, anyway...
>>
>> I would. It has to be double pole.
>
> Define "switch".
>
> The main isolator "switch" and any RCD "switches"(*) are double pole
> but MCB "switches" are single pole.

Yup, when I read the OP I was not sure if by "switch" he was referring
to the MCB or the main switch.

> (*) Are RCBO's double pole? They have to monitor the relevant
> circuits neutral current but that doesn't mean they have to switch
> it.

The two module wide ones sometimes are, the single "tall" ones often not.

[John Rumm]

On 18/06/2013 21:44, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
> En el artículo <tpSdnRo6G9d1zV3M...@eclipse.net.uk>, Ivan
> Dobsky <iv...@dobsky.com> escribió:

>
>> I'm just not entirely sure that there isn't something 'out
>> there' (e.g. some fault or condition at the substation, or someone in the
>> vicinity trying to bypass his electricity meter) that might make the neutral
>> wire become unexpectedly dangerous.
>
> Most installations are T-N-C-S, so neutral and earth are the same at the
> supplier main fuse. To energise the house neutral, you would also have
> to have an earthing fault. Can't see that being likely.

In fact all you would nee to do with a PME installation is disconnect
the incoming PEN (protective earth and neutral conductor). Then your
neutral and all exposed metalwork in the house will rise to mains
potential ;-)

[dochol...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 6:41:43 PM UTC+1, adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
<snip>

> A couple of weeks ago I tested a circuit was live, removed the "suggested"
> fuse, checked that the circuit was dead and then checked the tester was
> still working on another circuit. All OK

>
> Bloody apprentice destroyed my hacksaw blade when he chopped through the
> live armoured cable:-)

Some years ago I was doing a job in the dockyard in Gibraltar - elsewhere in the dockyard a jointer carefully isolated and spiked the cable to be cut, marked it with tape for his apprentice to cut, and went off for some reason. While he was away the apprentice/assistant started to cut the _other_ cable running parallel to it.
These were 11kV cables, by the way - he was very lucky to get away with some significant burns and loss of hair. The hacksaw blade was never seen again...

[Owain]

On Jun 19, 3:39 pm, newshound wrote:
> Presumably, a tuned circuit looking for what, in the old days, we would
> have called "mains hum" and lighting up when it finds it. I remember
> tracing circuits with a transistor radio. Unlike the neon screwdriver,
> it works through the insulation.

I've been tracing mains cables with an audio induction loop receiver.
Someone thought it a good idea to plaster over various sockets and
junction boxes.

Owain

[ARW]

Mike Barnes wrote:
> ARW <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk>:
>> Mike Barnes wrote:
>>> ARW <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk>:

>>>> A couple of weeks ago I tested a circuit was live, removed the
>>>> "suggested" fuse, checked that the circuit was dead and then
>>>> checked the tester was still working on another circuit. All OK
>>>>
>>>> Bloody apprentice destroyed my hacksaw blade when he chopped
>>>> through the live armoured cable:-)
>>>>

>>>> It turned out that one of the leads on the tester was faulty and it
>>>> had shown dead when it should not have done.
>>>

>>> Best to test the tester on a known live circuit after testing the
>>> hopefully dead circuit.
>>
>> That's what I did.

>>
>> "A couple of weeks ago I tested a circuit was live, removed the
>> "suggested" fuse, checked that the circuit was dead and then checked
>> the tester was still working on another circuit. All OK"
>

> Oops, so you did. Intermittent faults are a bugger.

I replaced the leads on the tester the same day.

--
Adam

[ARW]

I used to get 1 in 5 of my apprentices to pass.

2 in 5 quit (for various reasons)
1 in 5 got fired
1 in 5 left to work for another firm

But this is based on a small sample and one of the apprentices that left for
another firm was due to his parents moving away from the area. He stopped at
my house on week days and was still my apprentice until he got a placement
with a firm near his parents (he graduated).

--
Adam

[tony sayer]

In article <kpt1t0$5ov$1...@dont-email.me>, ARW <adamwadsworth@blueyonder.c

Just how many of them do you take on in a year Adam?..
--
Tony Sayer

[robgraham]

This has been an useful discussion - I don't have any worries in my
own house as I wired it myself, but I am going to have to do some work
in my daughter's house and that has been partly rewired by the a***e
she finally had the sense to throw out recently. The irony is the guy
was working as a professional electrician for a while, but first
impressions are that he has taken some short-cuts possibly with the
intention of sorting them out later - later is now past and I'm left
dealing with it.

Rob

[Windmill]

dochol...@gmail.com writes:

>On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:18:12 PM UTC+1, Ivan Dobsky wrote:
>> I've always switched off the whole lot at the consumer unit, but the bloke
>> next door but one says he's happy to just pull out one of the fuses. I know
>> what he's saying, and I understand why he's not killed himself yet, but I'm
>> too much of a coward to do this myself. My feeling is, with the fuse pulled,
>> the neutral is still connected, and if you're unlucky, something could
>> happen outside of the property which might make it suddenly become live. Or >

>> am I being too cautious? It is sometimes a pain having to switch everything

>> off, and if pulling the relevant fuse was sufficient, I'd rather do that.

>How much do you trust the chap who installed the system? I've found quite a few cases where the fuse you need to pull isn't the one you'd expect (e.g. 13A sockets spurred off immersion heater wiring), so that's my main worry when jut pulling one fuse.

>I wouldn't expect the switch on the consumer unit to disconnect the neutral, anyway...

It's usually (I hesitate to say always) a double-pole switch.

--
Windmill, Til...@Nonetel.com Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ O n e t e l . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost

[Windmill]

"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> writes:

>On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 21:40:16 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

>>> I wouldn't expect the switch on the consumer unit to disconnect
>the
>>> neutral, anyway...
>>

>> I would. It has to be double pole.

>Define "switch".

>The main isolator "switch" and any RCD "switches"(*) are double pole
>but MCB "switches" are single pole.

>(*) Are RCBO's double pole? They have to monitor the relevant
>circuits neutral current but that doesn't mean they have to switch
>it.

I've always assumed they're just single pole. BICBW.

Another question: Is a double pole device which is described as a 100 A
RCD 'Incomer' tripped by overcurrent as well as by earth leakage? Or is
it just a switch with RCD capability?

[John Rumm]

On 20/06/2013 01:50, Windmill wrote:
> "Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 21:40:16 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
>
>>>> I wouldn't expect the switch on the consumer unit to disconnect
>> the
>>>> neutral, anyway...
>>>
>>> I would. It has to be double pole.
>
>> Define "switch".
>
>> The main isolator "switch" and any RCD "switches"(*) are double pole
>> but MCB "switches" are single pole.
>
>> (*) Are RCBO's double pole? They have to monitor the relevant
>> circuits neutral current but that doesn't mean they have to switch
>> it.
>
> I've always assumed they're just single pole. BICBW.
>
> Another question: Is a double pole device which is described as a 100 A
> RCD 'Incomer' tripped by overcurrent as well as by earth leakage? Or is
> it just a switch with RCD capability?

Its just a switch with RCD capability, that will melt somewhere north of
100A ;-)

[ARW]

None, I now subcontract.:-)

I had 8 wannabes and 2 survivors in 10 years when I was in charge. This firm
takes on one a month.


--
Adam

[Adam Funk]

On 2013-06-19, ARW wrote:

> Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2013-06-18, tony sayer wrote:

>>> I think .. with those apprentices you'll be on a murder charge one
>>> day 'ere long;!..
>>>
>>> Course we'll all come as character witnesses to say you were provoked
>>> beyond reasonable human endurance;!..
>>>
>>> Do any of them ever graduate at all?...
>>
>> 100% of the survivors graduate! ;-)
>
> I used to get 1 in 5 of my apprentices to pass.
>
> 2 in 5 quit (for various reasons)

various reasons incl. being on fire, twitching from the shock, ...

;-)

[ARW]

The best reason given was "Having a job affects my lifestlye, I do not like
to get out of bed in a morning".

It saved me having to fire him. What did the stupid twat think that a
daytime job involved?



--
Adam

[Frank Erskine]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 16:32:33 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <tr869a-...@chris.zbmc.eu>,
> <c...@isbd.net> wrote:

>> > How much do you trust the chap who installed the system? I've found
>> > quite a few cases where the fuse you need to pull isn't the one you'd
>> > expect (e.g. 13A sockets spurred off immersion heater wiring), so
>> > that's my main worry when jut pulling one fuse.
>

>> **ALWAYS** check the circuit that you're working on is disconnected
>> after pulling the fuse or switching the MCB. I usually use a lamp or a
>> drill plugged into the circuit in question and do a check before (e.g.
>> lamp on) and a check after (lamp off).
>
>That checks the circuit is no longer made - but not that it's the line
>which is disconnected.

A while ago I looked after the electrics for a local amateur theatre
(as well as getting involved in actual productions). The house lights
(eight, ISTR) (inter alia) had been "professionally" wired via
seperate (MEM?) single way metalclad switch-fuses from metal trunking.
The whole setup looked very neat until I noticed that every switchfuse
was wired so that the fuse was in the neutral.
So if someone merely pulled a fuse the circuit would still be very
much alive.

Tip - always
--
frank in sunderland

[Adam Funk]

On 2013-06-20, ARW wrote:

> Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2013-06-19, ARW wrote:
>>> Adam Funk wrote:

[ARW's apprentices]

>>>> 100% of the survivors graduate! ;-)
>>>
>>> I used to get 1 in 5 of my apprentices to pass.
>>>
>>> 2 in 5 quit (for various reasons)
>>
>> various reasons incl. being on fire, twitching from the shock, ...
>>
>> ;-)
>
> The best reason given was "Having a job affects my lifestlye, I do not like
> to get out of bed in a morning".
>
> It saved me having to fire him. What did the stupid twat think that a
> daytime job involved?

You could've put him on the night shift.

[ARW]

Yep. There are loads of customers wanting a rewire at midnight!

I did night shifts not long ago. But I still did the day shifts as well.

--
Adam

[Adam Funk]

On 2013-06-21, ARW wrote:

> Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2013-06-20, ARW wrote:
>>
>>> Adam Funk wrote:
>>>> On 2013-06-19, ARW wrote:
>>>>> Adam Funk wrote:
>>
>> [ARW's apprentices]
>>
>>>>>> 100% of the survivors graduate! ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> I used to get 1 in 5 of my apprentices to pass.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2 in 5 quit (for various reasons)
>>>>
>>>> various reasons incl. being on fire, twitching from the shock, ...
>>>>
>>>> ;-)
>>>
>>> The best reason given was "Having a job affects my lifestlye, I do
>>> not like to get out of bed in a morning".
>>>
>>> It saved me having to fire him. What did the stupid twat think that a
>>> daytime job involved?
>>
>> You could've put him on the night shift.
>
> Yep. There are loads of customers wanting a rewire at midnight!

Yeah, I figured we could leave the winking symbols out.