"Unsnibbible" lock?
Tim Downie
otherwise secured from the inside to prevent access? It's for an elderly
lady who needs social services support but who sometimes accidentally (or
perhaps deliberately) leaves the lock snibbed occasionally preventing
access.
Standard Euro cylinder locks are no use as they can be blocked by leaving
the key in the lock on the inside.
Tim
Nick Odell
Whether or not it is legal to put a person in a position where they
can't refuse entry to their own home may be quite complicated: unless
you have an exact understanding of how the woman's health is viewed by
the courts, I recommend you talk the situation over on
uk.legal.moderated before exposing yourself to possible civil or
criminal action.
Regarding the lock: it is very easy to remove the 'catch' from a
bog-standard Yale lock using nothing more than a cross-head
screwdriver.
Nick
Andrew May
What about a Euro Cylinder lock with a thumb-turn on the inside?
Tim Downie
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 10:34:29 -0000, "Tim Downie"
> <timdow...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Is there such a think as a yale type lock that *can't* be "snibbed"
>> or otherwise secured from the inside to prevent access? It's for an
>> elderly lady who needs social services support but who sometimes
>> accidentally (or perhaps deliberately) leaves the lock snibbed
>> occasionally preventing access.
>>
>> Standard Euro cylinder locks are no use as they can be blocked by
>> leaving the key in the lock on the inside.
>>
> Whether or not it is legal to put a person in a position where they
> can't refuse entry to their own home may be quite complicated: unless
> you have an exact understanding of how the woman's health is viewed by
> the courts, I recommend you talk the situation over on
> uk.legal.moderated before exposing yourself to possible civil or
> criminal action.
I'd agree it it tricky and I'm not sure whether I will persue it, I really
just wanted to know if it was possible. If I *don't* persue it, the lady
concern will very likely end up in a care home sooner rather than later
(which she vehemently opposes). She *needs* social services support to
maintain what independence she has at present. Unfortunately, she has a
poor perception of her abilities to look after herself and without support I
can't see her staying at home for more than a few weeks.
>
> Regarding the lock: it is very easy to remove the 'catch' from a
> bog-standard Yale lock using nothing more than a cross-head
> screwdriver.
Thanks. I'll have a closer look at the existing lock.
Tim
Nick Odell
<timdow...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Nick Odell wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 10:34:29 -0000, "Tim Downie"
>> <timdow...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Is there such a think as a yale type lock that *can't* be "snibbed"
>>> or otherwise secured from the inside to prevent access? It's for an
>>> elderly lady who needs social services support but who sometimes
>>> accidentally (or perhaps deliberately) leaves the lock snibbed
>>> occasionally preventing access.
>>>
>>> Standard Euro cylinder locks are no use as they can be blocked by
>>> leaving the key in the lock on the inside.
>>>
>> Whether or not it is legal to put a person in a position where they
>> can't refuse entry to their own home may be quite complicated: unless
>> you have an exact understanding of how the woman's health is viewed by
>> the courts, I recommend you talk the situation over on
>> uk.legal.moderated before exposing yourself to possible civil or
>> criminal action.
>
>I'd agree it it tricky and I'm not sure whether I will persue it, I really
>just wanted to know if it was possible. If I *don't* persue it, the lady
>concern will very likely end up in a care home sooner rather than later
>(which she vehemently opposes). She *needs* social services support to
>maintain what independence she has at present. Unfortunately, she has a
>poor perception of her abilities to look after herself and without support I
>can't see her staying at home for more than a few weeks.
>
Please don't think I don't sympathise - my late mother was a real
worry too. But unless the Court of Protection has already become
involved or an Enduring Power of Attorney was properly set up and is
now activated, it could be very sticky ground for others - even close
relatives - taking decisions like that on her behalf.
Nick
Tim Downie
We do have enduring POA and it's in the process of being activated. We just
want to protect her from her own pigheadedness to enable her to stay in her
own home as long as possible. To be honest, it would be much much easier
just to leave her fail in her own home.
Thanks for the warning though.
Tim
Tim Downie
Looks like a possibility but I'm not absolutely sure that those won't
deadlock when locked with the thumbturn.
Tim
Scott M
> Regarding the lock: it is very easy to remove the 'catch' from a
> bog-standard Yale lock using nothing more than a cross-head
> screwdriver.
There's a 40 year old Yale here which has always been viewed with
suspicion (ever since, aged 3, I locked everyone out :-) ) and
occasionally has been found in the snibbed position, probably through
being knocked.
In a fit of industriousness recently, I took the lock off for a look.
The snib action was a bit of tin plate that moved up and down (operating
against the internal handle IIRC.) By putting a twist in this bit of
metal it allowed a firm twist of the key to overcome the (undesirable)
locked shut action whilst retaining the (desirable) locked open action.
--
Scott
Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?
bunnymjh
I use a Euro thumbturn myself, and I can confirm that it does *not*
prevent the key from opening the door regardless of the 'state' of the
internal thumbturn.
hth.
Tim Downie
Thanks, that's handy to know.
Tim
Andy Dingley
> It's for an elderly
> lady who needs social services support but who sometimes accidentally (or
> perhaps deliberately) leaves the lock snibbed occasionally preventing
> access.
Our social services people (Lancashire) just broke the door down.
Utter useless incompetent bastards, the lot of them. 8-(
Tim Downie
Thanks.
Tim
harry
Dismantle the lock and remove the snib. Simple. About three screws.
Andrew May
>> What about a Euro Cylinder lock with a thumb-turn on the inside?
>
> Looks like a possibility but I'm not absolutely sure that those won't
> deadlock when locked with the thumbturn.
>
Not the one I've got. I can lock it from this inside using the thumb-turn
when I go to bed but anyone else can open it from the outside with the key.
I chose it because I wanted a mortice deadlock that I could lock at night
to satisfy the insurance company but which I did not have to find the key
for if I woke up in the middle of the night to find a dark house full of
smoke.
Andrew
Dave Plowman (News)
Tim Downie <timdow...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Is there such a think as a yale type lock that *can't* be "snibbed" or
> otherwise secured from the inside to prevent access? It's for an
> elderly lady who needs social services support but who sometimes
> accidentally (or perhaps deliberately) leaves the lock snibbed
> occasionally preventing access.
Remove the button.
--
*Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Dave Plowman (News)
Andrew May <andrew...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Not the one I've got. I can lock it from this inside using the
> thumb-turn when I go to bed but anyone else can open it from the
> outside with the key.
> I chose it because I wanted a mortice deadlock that I could lock at
> night to satisfy the insurance company but which I did not have to find
> the key for if I woke up in the middle of the night to find a dark
> house full of smoke.
Not quite sure how that satisfies the definition of a deadlock?
--
*On the other hand, you have different fingers*
Ronald Raygun
> In article <8ri90k...@mid.individual.net>,
> Andrew May <andrew...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Not the one I've got. I can lock it from this inside using the
>> thumb-turn when I go to bed but anyone else can open it from the
>> outside with the key.
>
>> I chose it because I wanted a mortice deadlock that I could lock at
>> night to satisfy the insurance company but which I did not have to find
>> the key for if I woke up in the middle of the night to find a dark
>> house full of smoke.
>
> Not quite sure how that satisfies the definition of a deadlock?
Not quite sure why you would think it wouldn't.
Dave
That looks an interesting solution to our problem. We have E lock and 4
keys for it. One stays in the house all the time and the others are
mine, wife's and son's.
My worry is that our son might not me able to get into our house in case
one of us is away and the other falls ill.
Thanks for that
Dave
Malcolm Gray
> the key in the lock on the inside.
i thought you could get euro cylinders with a clutch that defeated that
problem (I think partly for exit doors so that a key outside did not
stop people leaving)
Andrew May
> In article <8ri90k...@mid.individual.net>,
> Andrew May <andrew...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Not the one I've got. I can lock it from this inside using the
>> thumb-turn when I go to bed but anyone else can open it from the
>> outside with the key.
>
>> I chose it because I wanted a mortice deadlock that I could lock at
>> night to satisfy the insurance company but which I did not have to find
>> the key for if I woke up in the middle of the night to find a dark
>> house full of smoke.
>
> Not quite sure how that satisfies the definition of a deadlock?
I was using the definition from Wikipedia:
"A deadlock may be either single cylinder or double cylinder. A single
cylinder deadlock will accept a key on one side of the lock, but is
operated by a twist knob on the other side. Double cylinder locks will
accept a key on both sides and therefore do not require (and often do not
have) any twist knob."
Ronald Raygun
That isn't a definition of a deadlock. It is a description of some types
of deadlock.
Wikipedia's actual definition is higher up the page:
"A dead bolt or dead lock (also deadbolt), is a locking mechanism distinct
from a spring-bolt lock because a deadbolt cannot be moved to the open
position except by rotating the lock cylinder. The more common spring-bolt
lock (often called a "night latch") uses a spring to hold the bolt in place,
allowing retraction by applying force to the bolt itself. A deadbolt can
therefore make a door more resistant to entry without the correct key."
I think Dave's problem with this approach is that he associates cylinder
locks with spring-bolt night latches, and reckons only non-cylinder
(lever type) locks qualify as "dead". But that is not the case, not all
cylinder locks are spring loaded, some have a proper dead-bolt which can
only be moved by turning the key (or the thumb-turn).
docholliday
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 14:27:48 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > Andrew May <andrew_d_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Not the one I've got. I can lock it from this inside using the
> >> thumb-turn when I go to bed but anyone else can open it from the
> >> outside with the key.
>
> >> I chose it because I wanted a mortice deadlock that I could lock at
> >> night to satisfy the insurance company but which I did not have to find
> >> the key for if I woke up in the middle of the night to find a dark
> >> house full of smoke.
>
> > Not quite sure how that satisfies the definition of a deadlock?
>
> I was using the definition from Wikipedia:
>
> "A deadlock may be either single cylinder or double cylinder. A single
> cylinder deadlock will accept a key on one side of the lock, but is
> operated by a twist knob on the other side. Double cylinder locks will
> accept a key on both sides and therefore do not require (and often do not
> have) any twist knob."
I find the definitions here less useful than they might be. As far as
I'm concerned, I'd expect a single cylinder to be just that, i.e.
there is nothing at all showing on the other side of the door, and it
can only be locked and unlocked from one side. I have one like that on
my cellar, which would only be locked from outside. What they describe
as a single cylinder is what I've seen described as a key and turn
cylinder.
The main definition is also a little misleading, possibly because the
author is trying to keep things simple (they've omitted lever type
deadlocks altogether); they refer to a latch using a spring to hold
the bolt in place - while the simpler versions do this there are many
which have an additional mechanism, so that while the spring is used
to move the bolt, there is another mechanism which resists forcing
when the bolt is in the keep. I'm not thinking here of the type where
you can double lock the latch and handle using the key, but the sort
of lock with an additional spring-loaded bolt which cannot enter the
keep; when it is kept pushed into the lock mechanism it activates a
lock on the main bolt.
While thinking about this I've realised there's a source of confusion
here - I've heard people refer to locking the handle of a nightlatch
as deadlocking, even though the lock they're using isn't a deadlock.
Mike
Skipweasel
says...
> What about a Euro Cylinder lock with a thumb-turn on the inside?
>
+1
I fitted these to a terraced house recently - the family who moved in
appreciate the ability to lock the doors at night but still get out in a
fire.
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/45796/
--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.
Skipweasel
@yahoo.co.uk says...
> Looks like a possibility but I'm not absolutely sure that those won't
> deadlock when locked with the thumbturn.
>
>
They don't. You can still open them from the key side.
geoff
<timdow...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>Nick Odell wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 10:34:29 -0000, "Tim Downie"
>> <timdow...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Is there such a think as a yale type lock that *can't* be "snibbed"
>>> or otherwise secured from the inside to prevent access? It's for an
>>> elderly lady who needs social services support but who sometimes
>>> accidentally (or perhaps deliberately) leaves the lock snibbed
>>> occasionally preventing access.
>>>
>>> Standard Euro cylinder locks are no use as they can be blocked by
>>> leaving the key in the lock on the inside.
>>>
>> Whether or not it is legal to put a person in a position where they
>> can't refuse entry to their own home may be quite complicated: unless
>> you have an exact understanding of how the woman's health is viewed by
>> the courts, I recommend you talk the situation over on
>> uk.legal.moderated before exposing yourself to possible civil or
>> criminal action.
>
>I'd agree it it tricky and I'm not sure whether I will persue it, I
>really just wanted to know if it was possible. If I *don't* persue it,
>the lady concern will very likely end up in a care home sooner rather
>than later (which she vehemently opposes). She *needs* social services
>support to maintain what independence she has at present.
>Unfortunately, she has a poor perception of her abilities to look after
>herself and without support I can't see her staying at home for more
>than a few weeks.
>
Well, what you COULD do is buy her an entry keypad and solenoid
activated lock, She just needs to use it as normal, but the care worker,
armed with the access code can open it by unlocking the part in the
frame. I have one on my door although its currently deactivated
Something like this
http://www.sctltd.co.uk/acatalog/Door_latch_release_22956.html
--
geoff
robgraham
Actually it is highly undesirable to have a traditional Yale type lock
as a) they are not a deadlock and can be relatively easily overcome,
and b) they can be snibbed which inhibits the ability to escape easily
in case of fire. Insurance companies are not at all happy if this is
the main source of security on a door - I think they all insist that
such a lock should be a deadlock
I suspect the OP is talking about a Yale type lock rather than a
eurolock which does of course use a Yale type key. The latter do
operate as a deadlock and should always on the main exit have a thumb
turn on the inside for easy exiting.
I would suggest that the OP looks at trying to persuade the old lady
that her lock should be changed on security grounds alone, and that a
thumb-turn eurolock be fitted, which cannot be snibbed or blocked from
the inside.
I have a mother of 91 who fortunately is still fully capable,
physically and mentally, but as a family we may in time have to
address similar problems. But as a cautionary tale she was locked out
of her house the other day because the snib on the inner door yale had
become loose over the years and fell into the lock position when she
went out. Fortunately help was at hand but the bolt had to be sawn
through to gain access.
Rob
Bob Eager
> Actually it is highly undesirable to have a traditional Yale type lock
> as a) they are not a deadlock and can be relatively easily overcome, and
> b) they can be snibbed which inhibits the ability to escape easily in
> case of fire. Insurance companies are not at all happy if this is the
> main source of security on a door - I think they all insist that such a
> lock should be a deadlock
This one is quite good:
It has an automatic 'deadlock' feature which means it can't be 'carded'
when the door is closed. It can't be snibbed. It has a button to hold the
bolt back if needed, but which won't lock it shut. It has a large easy to
use turn lever on the inside.
The only downside is it can be locked from the inside, which isn't ideal
in this situation. It's BS3621 so most insurance companies are happy with
it as a replacement for a mortice lock.
--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor
Dave Plowman (News)
Ronald Raygun <no....@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
> think Dave's problem with this approach is that he associates cylinder
> locks with spring-bolt night latches, and reckons only non-cylinder
> (lever type) locks qualify as "dead". But that is not the case, not all
> cylinder locks are spring loaded, some have a proper dead-bolt which can
> only be moved by turning the key (or the thumb-turn).
A dead lock - to me - is one where the bolt is double locked in position
so can't be levered open. Nothing to do with if it can be opened from the
inside without a key.
--
*How's my driving? Call 999*
John Stumbles
> Standard Euro cylinder locks are no use as they can be blocked by
> leaving the key in the lock on the inside.
How about a Euro with a (can't think of the proper name) little handle
thingy on the inside, only key-operated on the outside? Safe easy exit in
emergency (e.g. fire) too.
--
John Stumbles
Women always generalise
John Stumbles
> I chose it because I wanted a mortice deadlock that I could lock at
> night to satisfy the insurance company but which I did not have to find
> the key for if I woke up in the middle of the night to find a dark house
> full of smoke.
When I asked my local locksmith (many years ago - dunno if it's changed)
he said thumbturn types were not insurance rated.
I'm still planning to install one (Round Tuits permitting) because getting
out safely in a fire is worth more than the property in the house.
--
John Stumbles
Question Authority
Dave Plowman (News)
John Stumbles <john.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> 'm still planning to install one (Round Tuits permitting) because getting
> out safely in a fire is worth more than the property in the house.
I'd like to think I have more than one exit in event of a fire.
--
*Letting a cat out of the bag is easier than putting it back in *
docholliday
wrote:
>
> A dead lock - to me - is one where the bolt is double locked in position
> so can't be levered open. Nothing to do with if it can be opened from the
> inside without a key.
>
understand it the essence of the dead lock is that the bolt is moved
by the key (or the thumb turn or equivalent) and doesn't have a
spring, as a latch does. That means that it can't be levered open
without breaking the mechanism, but there are latches which have
double locking or other security features which also prevent them
being levered open. That doesn't make them dead locks as I understand
it (and it looks to me as if the manufacturers also use that
definition).
mike
Frank Erskine
<john.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 10:34:29 +0000, Tim Downie wrote:
>
>> Standard Euro cylinder locks are no use as they can be blocked by
>> leaving the key in the lock on the inside.
>
>How about a Euro with a (can't think of the proper name) little handle
>thingy on the inside, only key-operated on the outside? Safe easy exit in
>emergency (e.g. fire) too.
The problem there, if it's on a glazed door, is that a burglar can
just smash the glass, put his/her hand through, and open the door with
the "handle thingy"...
--
Frank Erskine
robgraham
wrote:
> On 11 Feb 2011 00:17:33 GMT, John Stumbles
>
Sorry - would you rather take the risk of being in a smoke filled
house and unable to get out through the locked door because the smoke
is preventing you finding the key, or the alternative, which is all
too easily avoided by not have a glazed front door; and, once again,
the insurance company would regard as an unnecessary risk.
Rob
Frank Erskine
I agree entirely. I was really pointing out the risk of having a
glazed front door, or at least one where a burglar can reach the
inside of the lock.
--
Frank Erskine
m...@privacy.net
Frank Erskine <frank....@btinternet.com> wrote:
Not if the glass is laminated. I "broke into" a neighbours house when
grandparents were locked out by their small grandchild. I chose the front
door, not realising it was laminated and it took ages with a hammer to get
in. I should have used the toilet window but thought the glass would fly
about too much.
--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply
Thomas Prufer
wrote:
>Standard Euro cylinder locks are no use as they can be blocked by leaving
>the key in the lock on the inside.
Ask a locksmith for a Euro cylinder that allows the lock to be opened from the
outside with a key in the lock on the inside. It's a feature that can be fitted
and un-fitted in better cylinders, for instance Keso and Kaba.
Thomas Prufer