British Gas - Smart meter bullying tactics

[Chris B]

I have Gas and electric charged by British Gas. I am fully up to date
with payments. I don't have smart meters, I have not requested smart
meters, I am not on a tariff requiring smart meters and I have no
particular desire for smart meters.

I received a text from BG saying than my smart meter installation at
(correct postcode so probably not a scam) had been arranged for <time>
on <date>. If you want to change the appointment reply with RESCHEDULE.

So I did just that. This gave me three alternative dates but stated "We
will keep the original appointment until you tell us a new one.

I replied with

"please cancel the appointment smart meters not required."

which clearly confused the Bot as we got in an endless loop finishing in

"Sorry something has gone wrong - we will get an advisor to look into it"

Now I have had an e-mail saying that my smart meters will be fitted on
original <time> and <date> But I can change or cancel this appointment
by logging in to my BG account.


So I log into my account and find out that yes I can change the
appointment but to cancel it I have to ring up their helpline.

I think its a bit rich asking me to call (and doubtless wait in a queue
for hours) to cancel something I didn't ask for and don't particularly
want.

I am sorely tempted to just not be in on the day they arrive -
Thankfully the meters are safely locked inside the house and not in
accessible boxes outside.



--
Chris B (News)

[Robin]

On 26/01/2023 09:46, Chris B wrote:
> I have Gas and electric charged by British Gas. I am fully up to date
> with payments. I don't have smart meters, I have not requested smart
> meters, I am not on a tariff requiring smart meters and I have no
> particular desire for smart meters.
>

<snip>
>
Just tell them no by

(a) email to custome...@britishgas.co.uk

(b) tweet to @BritishGashelp (without your details which they'll ask for
by DM)


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[charles]

In article <tqti65$14ej7$1...@dont-email.me>,

It's quite simple. Just stop using gas and electricity. You then won't need
meters.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Jeff Gaines]

On 26/01/2023 in message <tqti65$14ej7$1...@dont-email.me> Chris B wrote:

>Now I have had an e-mail saying that my smart meters will be fitted on
>original <time> and <date> But I can change or cancel this appointment by
>logging in to my BG account.
>
>
>So I log into my account and find out that yes I can change the
>appointment but to cancel it I have to ring up their helpline.

This is becoming quite prevalent nowadays. When after nearly 60 years with
HSBC I decided I had had enough I moved my current account using SWITCH. I
also had a savings account where the online instructions were to log in to
cancel it. When I logged in it said I had to 'phone, presumably so they
could give me a load of marketing bull. I transfered all the money out
except for 56 pence which can sit there and rot - I accept it's difficult
to do that with gas :-)

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
The first five days after the weekend are the hardest.

[Davey]

Or print out your messages telling them 'NO', and show them to the
'engineer' when he arrives and you refuse him entry.

--
Davey.

[Chris B]

On 26/01/2023 10:02, Robin wrote:
> On 26/01/2023 09:46, Chris B wrote:
>> I have Gas and electric charged by British Gas. I am fully up to date
>> with payments. I don't have smart meters, I have not requested smart
>> meters, I am not on a tariff requiring smart meters and I have no
>> particular desire for smart meters.
>>
> <snip>
>>
> Just tell them no by
>
> (a) email to custome...@britishgas.co.uk
>

That did the trick, Thank You

--
Chris B (News)

[Scott]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 12:13:09 +0000, Davey <da...@example.invalid>
wrote:

Having a witness present would do no harm.

[Scott]

Lucky you. I emailed customerc...@britishgas.co.uk and received
a response saying they were unable to monitor the inbox.

[Sam Plusnet]

I take the same view as you on smart meters, & don't want them.

However, as some point in time one of your existing meters will develop
a fault, or 'They' will decide that your existing meter has exceeded its
working lifespan, and must be replaced.

At this point, Hobson's choice applies.

--
Sam Plusnet

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 26/01/2023 19:48, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> I take the same view as you on smart meters, & don't want them.
>
> However, as some point in time one of your existing meters will develop
> a fault,

What existing meter would that be?

--
“Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

[SteveW]

On 26/01/2023 19:48, Sam Plusnet wrote:

You can still insist on a non-smart meter, even then. As they run out of
smart meters, they can still install smart meters without the smart part
being used. However, the rules could change at any time.

[alan_m]

On 26/01/2023 21:06, SteveW wrote:

> You can still insist on a non-smart meter, even then. As they run out of
> smart meters, they can still install smart meters without the smart part
> being used. However, the rules could change at any time.
>

What's likely to change is higher tariffs for those who have refused a
smart meter.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[Joe]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 21:24:55 +0000
alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On 26/01/2023 21:06, SteveW wrote:
>
> > You can still insist on a non-smart meter, even then. As they run
> > out of smart meters, they can still install smart meters without
> > the smart part being used. However, the rules could change at any
> > time.
>
> What's likely to change is higher tariffs for those who have refused
> a smart meter.
>

And at some point, legislation. The main purpose is to be able to cut
off people who acquire a poor social credit rating, sorry, I mean get
behind on payments.

--
Joe

[Falscher Bruce]

On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 5:46:49 PM UTC+8, Chris B wrote:
> I have Gas and electric charged by British Gas. I am fully up to date
> with payments. I don't have smart meters, I have not requested smart
> meters, I am not on a tariff requiring smart meters and I have no
> particular desire for smart meters.
>
>

It is a general principle that utilities own the meter and connection, and if you want to use the service, you must allow reasonable access. What if gas regulator starts venting gas? They have to fix it pronto. Smart meters have not traditionally been used for residential gas, just for industrial users that might want to use large amounts at off-peak times. Perhaps they are trying to get rid of meter readers due to dog attacks or some other reason.

[Chris B]

On 26/01/2023 21:24, alan_m wrote:
> On 26/01/2023 21:06, SteveW wrote:
>
>> You can still insist on a non-smart meter, even then. As they run out
>> of smart meters, they can still install smart meters without the smart
>> part being used. However, the rules could change at any time.
>>
>
> What's likely to change is higher tariffs for those who have refused a
> smart meter.
>

That trend was starting just before the market went belly up. Not so
much penalties for dumb meters but cheaper tariffs for those who agreed
to go down the smart meter route. Just as there are cheaper tariffs for
those who agree to pay by DD.


--
Chris B (News)

[alan_m]

Even if it's more of a publicity stunt, you cannot get a payment for not
using electricity at specified peak times unless you have a smart meter.

[Vir Campestris]

On 26/01/2023 19:48, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>

> I take the same view as you on smart meters, & don't want them.
>
> However, as some point in time one of your existing meters will develop
> a fault, or 'They' will decide that your existing meter has exceeded its
> working lifespan, and must be replaced.
>
> At this point, Hobson's choice applies.

They told me my electric meter was out of calibration.
When I told them I didn't want a smart meter, and I didn't think it
would work here anyway, they checked, agreed it wouldn't work, and
decided it was no longer out of calibration.

Andy

[Chris Green]

That has basically been my experience too, they claimed my meter was
at end of life but I said I didn't want a smart meter and that I
doubted if mobile coverage was good enough here and I've heard
absolutely nothing since.

--
Chris Green
·

[Tim+]

alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27/01/2023 10:45, Chris B wrote:
>> On 26/01/2023 21:24, alan_m wrote:
>>> On 26/01/2023 21:06, SteveW wrote:
>>>
>>>> You can still insist on a non-smart meter, even then. As they run out
>>>> of smart meters, they can still install smart meters without the
>>>> smart part being used. However, the rules could change at any time.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What's likely to change is higher tariffs for those who have refused a
>>> smart meter.
>>>
>>
>> That trend was starting just before the market went belly up.  Not so
>> much penalties for dumb meters but cheaper tariffs for those who agreed
>> to go down the smart meter route.  Just as there are cheaper tariffs for
>> those who agree to pay by DD.
>
> Even if it's more of a publicity stunt,

Less of a stunt than a trial I think. As the margin between power generated
nationally and power consumed gets squeezed ever tighter, power companies
are trying to find new ways of keeping the lights on. Now that we have
smart meters, people can be rewarded for load shifting and the power
companies need an idea of how many folk are prepared to do it.

In the future I foresee bigger rewards for “on demand” load shifting and
more home automation to automate a certain amount of power saving during
the on-demand periods.

I have a few Wi-Fi switches that I use to turn things off during the saving
periods and on again afterwards.

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

[Max Demian]

I prefer to time dinner according to hunger or habit, not at the
convenience of power generators.

--
Max Demian

[Robin]

No problem: you pays your money, you takes your choice.

[David Wade]

On 27/01/2023 17:25, Max Demian wrote:

That is fine but I am sure you will eventually pay. Perhaps its worth
noting in other countries you:-

1. Have to have a SMART meter
2. You have to pay to rent it.
3. There are multiple price bands for power.

Dave

[Brian Gaff]

Well, blind them with science. Ask them which generation of meter they are
fitting. In the end you should find, as somebody I knew did that thewill
take you off the list at least for a while. I'm not sure what your objection
is though, as you should be able to stay on the same tariff and all that
when they change, except that you can see what you use.
If you get the Electric that way then have one that does both. The older
ones could not be used to switch suppliers, but the engineer I spoke to says
the new ones are all read by a third party and the contract details allow
the readings to go to your current supplier.

Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Jeff Gaines" <jgne...@outlook.com> wrote in message
news:xn0nxb1n0...@news.individual.net...

[Chris B]

On 27/01/2023 18:25, David Wade wrote:

>>
>
> That is fine but I am sure you will eventually pay. Perhaps its worth
> noting in other countries you:-
>
> 1. Have to have a SMART meter
> 2. You have to pay to rent it.
> 3. There are multiple price bands for power.
>
> Dave

And I believe (but maybe wrong) that the French system charges even
domestic customers for apparent Power. (ie unlike the UK they do not
ignore the power factor of your installation).

--
Chris B (News)

[Max Demian]

How do they know what your power factor is? Commercial premises can be
inspected to see what high power electric motors they have for lathes &c.

(Incidentally, does a traditional mains transformer affect the PF, or
does this depend on what it connected to the secondary? In the past,
lots of things like radios would have mains transformers.)

--
Max Demian

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 29/01/2023 12:07, Max Demian wrote:
> On 29/01/2023 11:03, Chris B wrote:
>> On 27/01/2023 18:25, David Wade wrote:
>
>>> That is fine but I am sure you will eventually pay. Perhaps its worth
>>> noting in other countries you:-
>>>
>>> 1. Have to have a SMART meter
>>> 2. You have to pay to rent it.
>>> 3. There are multiple price bands for power.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>
>>
>> And I believe (but maybe wrong) that the French system charges even
>> domestic customers for apparent Power. (ie unlike the UK they do not
>> ignore the power factor of your installation).
>
> How do they know what your power factor is? Commercial premises can be
> inspected to see what high power electric motors they have for lathes &c.
>

They don't. The meter measures just measures power, not current. I.e the
intergal of V*I over a cycle.
How this used to be achieved was by a very cunning arrangement of
electromagnets. I assume today its done in software.

> (Incidentally, does a traditional mains transformer affect the PF, or
> does this depend on what it connected to the secondary? In the past,
> lots of things like radios would have mains transformers.)
>

It is affected by what is connected to the secondary. If nothing is, it
is basically an inductor and should ideally draw no power at all.

--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell

[Theo]

David Wade <g4...@dave.invalid> wrote:
> That is fine but I am sure you will eventually pay. Perhaps its worth
> noting in other countries you:-
>
> 1. Have to have a SMART meter
> 2. You have to pay to rent it.
> 3. There are multiple price bands for power.

Proposal here to charge differently by geographic area, so that generators
get paid more for putting generation nearer to consumers, rather than in the
north of Scotland where there is no grid capacity to take it south:

https://archy.deberker.com/the-uk-is-wasting-a-lot-of-wind-power/

(whether it would be purely at the wholesale level or the charge would come
through to consumers is unclear)

Theo

[Robin]

On 29/01/2023 13:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 29/01/2023 12:07, Max Demian wrote:
>> On 29/01/2023 11:03, Chris B wrote:
>>> On 27/01/2023 18:25, David Wade wrote:
>>
>>>> That is fine but I am sure you will eventually pay. Perhaps its
>>>> worth noting in other countries you:-
>>>>
>>>> 1. Have to have a SMART meter
>>>> 2. You have to pay to rent it.
>>>> 3. There are multiple price bands for power.
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> And I believe (but maybe wrong) that the French system charges even
>>> domestic customers for apparent Power. (ie unlike the UK they do not
>>> ignore the power factor of your installation).
>>
>> How do they know what your power factor is? Commercial premises can be
>> inspected to see what high power electric motors they have for lathes &c.
>>
> They don't. The meter measures just measures power, not current. I.e the
> intergal of V*I over a cycle.

I don't know if it made it through to the final text of the formal spec
for SMETS2 but it was certainly envisaged that they should measure both
active and reactive given the expected developments in domestic use.
And our Landis + Gyr E470 does so.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <QNAAL.3904787$%q2.27...@fx15.ams1>,

I've recently had them installed. Mainly because the gas one was awkward
to read - in the cellar, and side on so had to lean over and use a torch
to read it. Electricity one was fine.
And I am pleased I have. Use Loop on my phone, and can see a histogram of
hourly use. And costs per day (etc) for each easily. And don't have to
send readings in.

Still not got an IHD (in house display) that works properly, though. And
on the second one.

Of course if you're rich as a cabinet minister and don't have to worry or
care about energy costs, no need.

--
*Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <20230126214...@jrenewsid.jretrading.com>,

Bollocks. They will be changed to pre-payment first.

--
*Fax is stronger than fiction *

[Geo]

I am glad I have resisted the smart meters.

The meter reader came round to read the electric (inside house) and
then gas (outside box on the wall).
He knocked on the door a few minutes later and asked if I had smelt
gas before - I could not.
He phoned the emergency number, turned the supply off and after he
had told the operator what bits to click on her screen, left me with a
reference number.
An engineer turned up within 30 minutes and eventually traced two
leaking joints either side of the meter. Said the soldering was bad
and the pressure test showed a 2 mb drop in two minutes with nothing
else connected. He cut the pipes and installed new regulator and
fittings and re-tested. The meter had been installed in 2015.

So glad I still employ a reader...

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <2t3ith56jmdub6q09...@4ax.com>,

Could be Smart meter fitters are rather smarter than the cowboy who
installed yours?

--
*WHY IS IT CALLED TOURIST SEASON IF WE CAN'T SHOOT AT THEM?

[Jeff Layman]

On 31/01/2023 13:03, Geo wrote:

> An engineer turned up within 30 minutes and eventually traced two
> leaking joints either side of the meter. Said the soldering was bad
> and the pressure test showed a 2 mb drop in two minutes with nothing
> else connected. He cut the pipes and installed new regulator and
> fittings and re-tested. The meter had been installed in 2015.

So you've been paying for 7 - 8 years for gas which you didn't use, but
was being recorded on the gas meter. Have you been offered a refund?

--

Jeff

[David Wade]

On 31/01/2023 13:03, Geo wrote:

If you had accepted a smart meter when offered, they would have done the
same test, fixed the problem, and you would not have paid for the gas
lost from the premises side of the meter....

Dave

[SteveW]

And they still come and read the meter once in a while - both to ensure
that you've not fiddled with it and that there is not a leak.

[Davey]

Which, while true, cannot be used as a reason to switch to a
Smartmeter, as nothing was known about the leak.
--
Davey.

[Paul]

Digital power meters, all measure real and reactive power.

The entire table of numbers is sent up the line. The digital meter
does not have the authority to meddle with the information it
collects. It just sends it.

It is up to the billing design, to show you all numeric fields,
or only show you the fields they bill on.

On a digital power meter, there are two sigma-delta converters
running at 500KHz or so. They are ADCs, and give you a string
of digital values. One is for Volts. One is for Amps. Using
a dedicated hardware processor, there are a standard set of
equations used for working out the quantities. If something
needs to be integrated, they integrate the area under the curve.
The high sampling rate (500KHz compared to 50Hz), ensures the
math is of good quality. There are regulations to be met on
accuracy, so that a digital power meter is every bit as good
as that old rotating platter thingy. As far as I know, it's
good to around 1% or so. Even if the current flow waveform is
"ugly", the meter properly measures that. Your digital multimeter
on the other hand, does not measure that waveform properly.
Your hand held multimeter samples at 1Hz or 2Hz or so,
whereas the power meter runs at 500KHz.

*******

As my power systems professor would quip, the "reactive power
sloshes back and forth between the consumer and the power plant".
All current flows, result in resistive heating and losses.
The penalty for a consumer, having too high a reactive component,
is a measure of the need to beef up components (transformers, wires)
to handle the extra current flow. Only the "real" component is
typically billed for on consumers, while industrial power users
are billed on reactive powers, so that the industrial user will
consider installing a capacitor bank, to reduce the magnitude of
the reactive power.

Some industries are extremely reactive on power, and so the
management know they need to correct their power factor, before
they even connect to the grid. It's not a "surprise on our
monthly bill, and geez, we need to fix this". They already know
by design it needs to be fixed.

*******

As for those power meters, someone actually found an error in
those equations. Too funny. You may find a reference to that,
if investigating "how a digital power meter works". The error
was not something that affected billables in a significant way.
And it happened quite a while ago.

One of the reasons for my interest in the topic, is my
hand held meters giving me bullshit readings (obviously
wrong values) and wondering what was going on. For example,
some computer here, it was soft off, and one of my meters
was indicating it was "using 100W". Which is absurd. A Kill-O-Watt
gives numbers which match conventional knowledge on the topic.
You can see the real component "W" and the reactive version "VA"
on the meter, and can see just how bad the power factor is on
the computer when it is soft-off.

My computer is using 49W, 91VA, PF=0.53, and on my power
bill I pay for 49W. No, the power supply is not modern, it
is not an 80+, and I could run off and change it over
to the spare I've got. But the power supply is compatible
with poor-quality UPS supplies (stepped "sine").

Paul

[Paul]

The only way it could be worse, is if you lived like this.

Half their grid is 50Hz, half their grid is 60Hz.

They have frequency converters between the two halves of the
country (which is kinda like HVDC links in a sense), with
insufficient capacity to do much of anything in an emergency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Japan

Maybe the solution is to move more people and light bulbs,
to Scotland ? :-) For it appears in Japans case, the need
does not drive the construction. It did not foster more
conversion capacity between grid halves.

Paul

[The Natural Philosopher]

At least Japan has a grid that meets its needs. It not designed along
political lines for profit, but along engineering lines, to work.

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

On 26/01/2023 21:24, alan_m wrote:

> What's likely to change is higher tariffs for those who have refused a
> smart meter.

Too late, that is already the case, with cheaper tariffs offered if
willing to have one.

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

[charles]

In article <trdsg9$cc3t$1...@dont-email.me>,

as did ours.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[The Natural Philosopher]

Once upon a time. Not since Blair.


--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

[Adam Funk]

On 2023-02-01, Paul wrote:

> On 1/29/2023 10:28 AM, Theo wrote:
>> David Wade <g4...@dave.invalid> wrote:
>>> That is fine but I am sure you will eventually pay. Perhaps its worth
>>> noting in other countries you:-
>>>
>>> 1. Have to have a SMART meter
>>> 2. You have to pay to rent it.
>>> 3. There are multiple price bands for power.
>>
>> Proposal here to charge differently by geographic area, so that generators
>> get paid more for putting generation nearer to consumers, rather than in the
>> north of Scotland where there is no grid capacity to take it south:
>>
>> https://archy.deberker.com/the-uk-is-wasting-a-lot-of-wind-power/
>>
>> (whether it would be purely at the wholesale level or the charge would come
>> through to consumers is unclear)
>>
>> Theo
>>
>
> The only way it could be worse, is if you lived like this.
>
> Half their grid is 50Hz, half their grid is 60Hz.

What do they do about domestic appliances with motors?

[David Wade]

By the way keeping a meter does not ensure a meter reader will visit...

Ofgem repealed the requirement to inspect every two years in 2016...

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/decision-reforming-suppliers-meter-inspection-obligations

Dave

[Vir Campestris]

On 31/01/2023 15:12, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <2t3ith56jmdub6q09...@4ax.com>,
> Geo <nhhu...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
>> I am glad I have resisted the smart meters.
>
>> The meter reader came round to read the electric (inside house) and
>> then gas (outside box on the wall).
>> He knocked on the door a few minutes later and asked if I had smelt
>> gas before - I could not.
>> He phoned the emergency number, turned the supply off and after he
>> had told the operator what bits to click on her screen, left me with a
>> reference number.
>> An engineer turned up within 30 minutes and eventually traced two
>> leaking joints either side of the meter. Said the soldering was bad
>> and the pressure test showed a 2 mb drop in two minutes with nothing
>> else connected. He cut the pipes and installed new regulator and
>> fittings and re-tested. The meter had been installed in 2015.
>
>> So glad I still employ a reader...

Who took 8 years to notice the fault.

>
> Could be Smart meter fitters are rather smarter than the cowboy who
> installed yours?
>

Interesting assumption. Why do you think they are not the same people?
After all when smart meter installation was beginning nobody else had
any relevant experience.

Andy

[Theo]

Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:

> On 2023-02-01, Paul wrote:
>
> > Half their grid is 50Hz, half their grid is 60Hz.
>
> What do they do about domestic appliances with motors?

Many of them are multi-frequency, for others you just buy one for the right
frequency. All the local shops will have the right one, and for smaller
items like microwaves you just don't take them across the 'line'. It's a
bit like LHD v RHD cars, when you move you sell locally and buy another on
the other side.

Theo
(who noticed they have some quite interesting 100v woodworking tools, and
they're probably ok fed with 110v 50Hz from a site transformer)

[alan_m]

On 01/02/2023 22:42, Theo wrote:

> items like microwaves you just don't take them across the 'line'. It's a
> bit like LHD v RHD cars, when you move you sell locally and buy another on
> the other side.

For a microwave it probably doesn't matter. The turntable will just
rotate faster or slower dependant on the frequency.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 02/02/2023 09:43, alan_m wrote:
> On 01/02/2023 22:42, Theo wrote:
>
>> items like microwaves you just don't take them across the 'line'.  It's a
>> bit like LHD v RHD cars, when you move you sell locally and buy
>> another on
>> the other side.
>
> For a microwave it probably doesn't matter. The turntable will just
> rotate faster or slower dependant on the frequency.
>

For most things it won't matter. Anything with a transformer or switched
mode supply that operates on 50 will operate on 60.
Only things that wont work are synchronous motors - clocks and a few
other things.

--
There’s a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons
that sound good.

Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)

[alan_m]

On 31/01/2023 23:51, SteveW wrote:

> And they still come and read the meter once in a while - both to ensure
> that you've not fiddled with it and that there is not a leak.

Although BG used to send out the letters with red text saying that they
had to perform a "safety inspection" if your meter had not been read
for a couple of years and the meter reader had not managed to find you
in when they had called, or you had ignored their letters about making
an appointment at their convenience, the resulting safety inspection was...
The meter reader turning up, shining a torch on the meter, recording the
value and leaving within 15 seconds of setting foot inside you property.

I doubt if the meter reader had any gas related qualification nor any
test equipment*. In my case the gas meter was inside under the stairs
and where a lot of junk was stored. The meter reader wouldn't have been
able to see any modification to the pipes unless all of that was removed.

*When my neighbour reported a suspected gas leak the technician who came
out also asked to check around my meter and in the area where next door
suspected the leak (party wall). He spent a good 5 minutes with a gas
analyser establishing that there was no problem in my property.

[Theo]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 02/02/2023 09:43, alan_m wrote:
> > On 01/02/2023 22:42, Theo wrote:
> >
> >> items like microwaves you just don't take them across the 'line'.  It's a
> >> bit like LHD v RHD cars, when you move you sell locally and buy
> >> another on
> >> the other side.
> >
> > For a microwave it probably doesn't matter. The turntable will just
> > rotate faster or slower dependant on the frequency.
> >
> For most things it won't matter. Anything with a transformer or switched
> mode supply that operates on 50 will operate on 60.

Would a 60Hz microwave being run at 50Hz cause issues with the magnetron?

Not sure if it would, but I note in this schematic:
http://www.cuisimat-doc.be/catalog/pdf/SE688010F.pdf
there's an R-C circuit, which might be affected if the frequency changes.
I'm not sure if that's there just for noise suppression, though.

Theo

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 02 Feb 2023 20:59:04 +1100, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 02/02/2023 09:43, alan_m wrote:
>> On 01/02/2023 22:42, Theo wrote:
>>
>>> items like microwaves you just don't take them across the 'line'.
>>> It's a
>>> bit like LHD v RHD cars, when you move you sell locally and buy
>>> another on
>>> the other side.
>> For a microwave it probably doesn't matter. The turntable will just
>> rotate faster or slower dependant on the frequency.
>>
> For most things it won't matter. Anything with a transformer or switched
> mode supply that operates on 50 will operate on 60.

But the reverse isnt true. Stuff with a transformer which is designed to
work at 60Hz can be killed when used on 50Hz. We had a very expensive
US made mass spectrometer which quite literally burst into flames when
first used on 50 Hz even when switched to 240V correctly.

[Peeler]

On Fri, 03 Feb 2023 05:33:44 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
Pomegranate Bastard addressing the trolling senile cretin from Oz:
"Surely you can find an Australian group to pollute rather than posting
your unwanted guff here."
MID: <c1pqvgte5ldlo1rn3...@4ax.com>

[NY]

I would have thought that it would have been the step-up transformer and
its input wiring that burst into flames, because the impedance of the
primary winding is less at 50 Hz than at 60 Hz (maybe because the
magnetism of the transformer core saturates).

Would this also have allowed too much power to be fed to the mass
spectrometer on the secondary side?

Switched-mode PSUs are wonderful: you can feed them either 50 Hz or 60
Hz, but more than that, you can feed them anything from about 90 V to
260 V without having to change a transformer tap.

That's a good range of adjustment on the mark-space ratio of the
high-frequency, to accommodate such a wide range of input voltage. I
remember a university project was to design and build (and test!) a
SMPSU, and to test its regulation over a wide range of input voltages
(provided with a good old Variac!) and a wide range of loads on the low
voltage side. The only thing to be careful of: on no account must the
switching wave fail, because this would leave the power transistor
turned permanently on: there was a period of about 5 seconds' grace,
during which there was a rustling sound like autumn leaves, followed by
a very loud bang as the transistor exploded. Several teams of students
did that, and ours even embedded itself in the ceiling and was still
there the following year. After that, we were all issued with plastic
safety goggles... I was rather proud that our design won the prize for
best regulation and highest efficiency, partly because someone in our
team worked out that a dropping resistor that was needed before the
bridge rectifier could be replaced with a capacitor which had the same
impedance at 50 Hz, so the losses in that resistor were avoided.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 02/02/2023 20:20, NY wrote:
> On 02/02/2023 18:33, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Thu, 02 Feb 2023 20:59:04 +1100, The Natural Philosopher
>> <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> For most things it won't matter. Anything with a transformer or
>>> switched mode supply that operates on 50 will operate on 60.
>>
>> But the reverse isnt true. Stuff with a transformer which is designed to
>> work at 60Hz can be killed when used on 50Hz. We had a very expensive
>> US made mass spectrometer which quite literally burst into flames when
>> first used on 50 Hz even when switched to 240V correctly.
>
> I would have thought that it would have been the step-up transformer and
> its input wiring that burst into flames, because the impedance of the
> primary winding is less at 50 Hz than at 60 Hz (maybe because the
> magnetism of the transformer core saturates).

What step up transformer?
You would get a bit of core saturation at 50hz, if the thing was
designed on the cheap.

>
> Would this also have allowed too much power to be fed to the mass
> spectrometer on the secondary side?
>

No

> Switched-mode PSUs are wonderful: you can feed them either 50 Hz or 60
> Hz, but more than that, you can feed them anything from about 90 V to
> 260 V without having to change a transformer tap.
>

Project I worked on ran from 48V DC (aircraft power) to 240V 50hz.


--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 02 Feb 2023 22:02:32 +1100, Theo
<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 02/02/2023 09:43, alan_m wrote:
>> > On 01/02/2023 22:42, Theo wrote:
>> >
>> >> items like microwaves you just don't take them across the 'line'.
>> It's a
>> >> bit like LHD v RHD cars, when you move you sell locally and buy
>> >> another on
>> >> the other side.
>> >
>> > For a microwave it probably doesn't matter. The turntable will just
>> > rotate faster or slower dependant on the frequency.
>> >
>> For most things it won't matter. Anything with a transformer or switched
>> mode supply that operates on 50 will operate on 60.
>
> Would a 60Hz microwave being run at 50Hz cause issues with the magnetron?

Not with the magnetron but can do with the transformer.

[Vir Campestris]

On 02/02/2023 09:43, alan_m wrote:

> For a microwave it probably doesn't matter. The turntable will just
> rotate faster or slower dependant on the frequency.

We've got one which was probably designed for this dual frequency stuff.
On 60Hz it would probably rotate every 10 seconds, which is convenient
when it has a 10 second short burst button. The jug handle would always
be at the front.

But over here it rotates every 12 seconds, which means on anything other
than whole minutes the jug handle is around the back somewhere.

Andy

[NY]

"The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:trh6eu$11a7b$6...@dont-email.me...

> What step up transformer?
> You would get a bit of core saturation at 50hz, if the thing was designed
> on the cheap.

Apologies, I was the wrong way round. Step *down* transformer: machine wants
120 V, transformer is fed 240 V input.

What would be the effect of core saturation? Would it lead to excessive
input current to the transformer (and hence maybe blown fuse or overheating)
or would it lead to excessive output supply (eg nominal 120 V actually being
much higher)?

[Rod Speed]

NY <m...@privacy.net> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote

>>> For most things it won't matter. Anything with a transformer or
>>> switched mode supply that operates on 50 will operate on 60.

>> But the reverse isnt true. Stuff with a transformer which is designed
>> to
>> work at 60Hz can be killed when used on 50Hz. We had a very expensive
>> US made mass spectrometer which quite literally burst into flames when
>> first used on 50 Hz even when switched to 240V correctly.

> I would have thought that it would have been the step-up transformerand
> its input wiring that burst into flames,

No, the transformer got so hot that the pitch melted and started dripping
out.

> because the impedance of the primary winding is less at 50 Hz than at 60
> Hz (maybe because the magnetism of the transformer core saturates).

The problem is that it saturates and gets much hotter.

> Would this also have allowed too much power to be fed to the mass
> spectrometer on the secondary side?

No.

> Switched-mode PSUs are wonderful: you can feed them either 50 Hz or 60
> Hz, but more than that, you can feed them anything from about 90 V to
> 260 V without having to change a transformer tap.

Yeah, but this was back in the late 60s when those weren't practical.

They still aren't with microwaves even now.

[Rod Speed]

On Fri, 03 Feb 2023 08:02:22 +1100, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:

> "The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:trh6eu$11a7b$6...@dont-email.me...
>> What step up transformer?
>> You would get a bit of core saturation at 50hz, if the thing was
>> designed on the cheap.
>
> Apologies, I was the wrong way round. Step *down* transformer: machine
> wants 120 V, transformer is fed 240 V input.

The mass spec always has a transformer to produce the
internal rails. It had separate primary windings so could
be used on a 120V or 240V mains. That was typical of all
those sorts of instruments in those days.

The problem was that the transformer was designed
for 60Hz and not for 50Hz. They supplied the correct
transformer after the original burst into flames.

> What would be the effect of core saturation?

The core gets much too hot.

> Would it lead to excessive input current to the transformer

No.

> (and hence maybe blown fuse

No.

> or overheating)

Yes, but due to core saturation, not to excessive input current.

> or would it lead to excessive output supply (eg nominal 120 V actually
> being much higher)?

There was no step down transformer, just the normal transformer
based power supply that was typical at that time and for quite a
while after that.

Still seen in microwaves.

[Peeler]

On Fri, 03 Feb 2023 07:40:29 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

FredXX to Rodent Speed:
"You are still an idiot and an embarrassment to your country. No wonder
we shipped the likes of you out of the British Isles. Perhaps stupidity
and criminality is inherited after all?"
Message-ID: <plbf76$gfl$1...@dont-email.me>

[Peeler]

On Fri, 03 Feb 2023 08:45:16 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

Kerr-Mudd,John addressing the auto-contradicting senile cretin:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID: <XnsA97071CF43...@85.214.115.223>

[Peeler]

On Fri, 03 Feb 2023 08:57:10 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent

Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

The Natural Philosopher about senile Rodent:
"Rod speed is not a Brexiteer. He is an Australian troll and arsehole."
Message-ID: <pu07vj$s5$2...@dont-email.me>

[Max Demian]

On 29/01/2023 13:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 29/01/2023 12:07, Max Demian wrote:

>> (Incidentally, does a traditional mains transformer affect the PF, or
>> does this depend on what it connected to the secondary? In the past,
>> lots of things like radios would have mains transformers.)
>>
> It is affected by what is connected to the secondary. If nothing is, it
> is basically an inductor and should ideally draw no power at all.

But what if the secondary is effectively a resistance, as would be the
case with a valve radio?

--
Max Demian

[Adam Funk]

On 2023-02-02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 02/02/2023 09:43, alan_m wrote:
>> On 01/02/2023 22:42, Theo wrote:
>>
>>> items like microwaves you just don't take them across the 'line'.  It's a
>>> bit like LHD v RHD cars, when you move you sell locally and buy
>>> another on
>>> the other side.
>>
>> For a microwave it probably doesn't matter. The turntable will just
>> rotate faster or slower dependant on the frequency.
>>
> For most things it won't matter. Anything with a transformer or switched
> mode supply that operates on 50 will operate on 60.
> Only things that wont work are synchronous motors - clocks and a few
> other things.

I thought one of the potential problems was that anything inductive
would have 5/6 of the impedance it was designed for.