Insulated wooden compost bin

[Tim Watts]

I'd like to make a large (1.5m3) wooden compost bin that's insulated to try
to run the compost hot. My existing bins are crap and it just sits there
slowly turning into mush despite turning and the bottom being open to drain.

I propose to use 2 layers with foam board in between (I have celotex
offcuts/damaged pieces which would be ideal).

The base will be insulated too and I'll probably run a couple of perforated
pipes through to allow some air to the middle.

The outer layer I think will be decking type wood - it looks nice enough,
it's tough and simple to screw into a box shape with some batten at the
corners.

Question is what to make the inside surface of? Same? WBP ply? Something
else?

There'll be drain holes in the base to allow leachate to run off (doubt
there'll be enough to bother collecting). It's going to (hopefully) get hot
and steamy inside to the inner layer will be in a much harsher environment
than the outside.

Obviously the concept of toxic preservative on the inner layer is a no-no.

Cheers

Tim
--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

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[Andrew Mawson]

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
news:8o1b9a-...@squidward.local.dionic.net...

>
>I'd like to make a large (1.5m3) wooden compost bin that's insulated to try
>to run the compost hot. My existing bins are crap and it just sits there
>slowly turning into mush despite turning and the bottom being open to
>drain.
>
>I propose to use 2 layers with foam board in between (I have celotex
>offcuts/damaged pieces which would be ideal).
>
>The base will be insulated too and I'll probably run a couple of perforated
>pipes through to allow some air to the middle.
>
>The outer layer I think will be decking type wood - it looks nice enough,
>it's tough and simple to screw into a box shape with some batten at the
>corners.
>
>Question is what to make the inside surface of? Same? WBP ply? Something
>else?
>
>There'll be drain holes in the base to allow leachate to run off (doubt
>there'll be enough to bother collecting). It's going to (hopefully) get hot
>and steamy inside to the inner layer will be in a much harsher environment
>than the outside.
>
>Obviously the concept of toxic preservative on the inner layer is a no-no.
>
>Cheers
>
>Tim

Do bear fire in mind. I had a small pile of hay raked up into a mound, that
had been used when we were lambing, so it had just a bit of sheep urine and
poo but was pretty clean. Left it sitting in an open barn intending to
re-use it. Wife pointed out one day it was smoking. Been there perhaps two
weeks. Opening up the pile showed it was very close to spontaneous
combustion.

So locate away from buildings, and turn very often.

AWEM

[fred]

I once used corrugated iron sheets for the sides and roof of a compost bin. At one stage it got so hot in the sun that the grass clippings burnt.

[Martin Brown]

On 20/06/2013 11:22, Tim Watts wrote:
> I'd like to make a large (1.5m3) wooden compost bin that's insulated to try
> to run the compost hot. My existing bins are crap and it just sits there
> slowly turning into mush despite turning and the bottom being open to drain.
>
> I propose to use 2 layers with foam board in between (I have celotex
> offcuts/damaged pieces which would be ideal).
>
> The base will be insulated too and I'll probably run a couple of perforated
> pipes through to allow some air to the middle.

Mine is made of old palettes with shed doors as separators. I have three
used in rotation and turn them as little as I can get away with. The
rough bits from the being emptied one end up on the being loaded one and
so transfer the culture from one heap to the next.

To bootstrap a hot heap it helps to add some proprietory accelerator
like Garrotta the first time (and just the right amount of water). This
is more important for small domestic garden heaps.


I find that despite what is generally believed it doesn't much matter
what you do provided you add about 2m^3 of stuff at a time it gets hot.
I have seen big piles of conifer branch offcuts steaming like crazy in
mid winter and fumes of oil of wintergreen on the air.

>
> The outer layer I think will be decking type wood - it looks nice enough,
> it's tough and simple to screw into a box shape with some batten at the
> corners.
>
> Question is what to make the inside surface of? Same? WBP ply? Something
> else?

My scrap palletes disintegrate every couple of years. If you wanted to
line it with something to stop the rot then thick polythene maybe?
(my instinct is this is a waste of time)

>
> There'll be drain holes in the base to allow leachate to run off (doubt
> there'll be enough to bother collecting). It's going to (hopefully) get hot
> and steamy inside to the inner layer will be in a much harsher environment
> than the outside.

It will get hot enough to catch fire if you do it right/wrong and
insulate too well depending on your point of view. I would be tempted to
try wooden sides and Celotex offcuts wrapped in roofing felt or pond
liner from the front and sides and just ignore the bottom - a palette or
even nothing at all is good enough down there...

>
> Obviously the concept of toxic preservative on the inner layer is a no-no.

It will rot away no matter what you treat it with. A hot compost heap is
an aggressive environment and astonishingly hot sometimes. It smells
funny too when hottest - not entirely unpleasant but a bit odd. The
smell is apparently short chain fatty acids and similar to BO.

Site it well away from the house or you will not be popular.
(and also well away from anything that will burn!)

I have had mine up to smouldering a couple of times!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Tim Watts]

Thank you - that was food for thought...

[Tim Watts]

On Thursday 20 June 2013 12:48 Andrew Mawson wrote in uk.d-i-y:


> Do bear fire in mind. I had a small pile of hay raked up into a mound,
> that had been used when we were lambing, so it had just a bit of sheep
> urine and poo but was pretty clean. Left it sitting in an open barn
> intending to re-use it. Wife pointed out one day it was smoking. Been
> there perhaps two weeks. Opening up the pile showed it was very close to
> spontaneous combustion.

Ooh.. This will be down well away from the house down by a fence. OK the
fence would get it but that would not be a disaster.

> So locate away from buildings, and turn very often.

I've seen stuff steam but not get *that* hot. I assumed the extra heat would
slow the bugs down - or was another exothermix process taking over I wonder?

[Mark]

I just use pallets with a DPM around the inside and a bit of old carpet on
top
it doesn't get steaming hot but everything rots down eventually
and you get interesting wild life making a home in it.
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3640/9sey.jpg

[Tim Watts]

I've had those too (Slow Worms).

[Tim+]

Tim Watts <tw+u...@dionic.net> wrote:
> On Thursday 20 June 2013 18:00 Mark wrote in uk.d-i-y:
>
>> I just use pallets with a DPM around the inside and a bit of old carpet on
>> top
>> it doesn't get steaming hot but everything rots down eventually
>> and you get interesting wild life making a home in it.
>> http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3640/9sey.jpg
>
> I've had those too (Slow Worms).

How can you tell without a video? ;-)

Tim

[Nick]

"Tim Watts" <tw+u...@dionic.net> wrote in message
news:8o1b9a-...@squidward.local.dionic.net...

> I'd like to make a large (1.5m3) wooden compost bin that's insulated to
> try
> to run the compost hot. My existing bins are crap and it just sits there
> slowly turning into mush despite turning and the bottom being open to
> drain.
>
> I propose to use 2 layers with foam board in between (I have celotex
> offcuts/damaged pieces which would be ideal).
>
> The base will be insulated too and I'll probably run a couple of
> perforated
> pipes through to allow some air to the middle.
>
> The outer layer I think will be decking type wood - it looks nice enough,
> it's tough and simple to screw into a box shape with some batten at the
> corners.
>
> Question is what to make the inside surface of? Same? WBP ply? Something
> else?
>
> There'll be drain holes in the base to allow leachate to run off (doubt
> there'll be enough to bother collecting). It's going to (hopefully) get
> hot
> and steamy inside to the inner layer will be in a much harsher environment
> than the outside.
>
> Obviously the concept of toxic preservative on the inner layer is a no-no.
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim

I think your concept is wrong and possibly dangerous.
If the contents are turning to mush, something is wrong. Probably the
contents and possibly the construction of your compost bin. As stuff
decomposes it will generate heat. Slowly, steadily and surely. I've had some
real steamers.
Like many I use a series of wooden pallets. Open to the ground and covered
with a bit of old carpet. No insulation. Turned (very infrequently) when I'm
not up to other more pressing stuff.
Open to the ground is fairly portant, to me anyway.
The good folk at uk.rec.gardening would be able to give better advice.
Nick.

[harryagain]

"Tim Watts" <tw+u...@dionic.net> wrote in message
news:8o1b9a-...@squidward.local.dionic.net...

> I'd like to make a large (1.5m3) wooden compost bin that's insulated to
> try
> to run the compost hot. My existing bins are crap and it just sits there
> slowly turning into mush despite turning and the bottom being open to
> drain.
>
> I propose to use 2 layers with foam board in between (I have celotex
> offcuts/damaged pieces which would be ideal).
>
> The base will be insulated too and I'll probably run a couple of
> perforated
> pipes through to allow some air to the middle.
>
> The outer layer I think will be decking type wood - it looks nice enough,
> it's tough and simple to screw into a box shape with some batten at the
> corners.
>
> Question is what to make the inside surface of? Same? WBP ply? Something
> else?
>
> There'll be drain holes in the base to allow leachate to run off (doubt
> there'll be enough to bother collecting). It's going to (hopefully) get
> hot
> and steamy inside to the inner layer will be in a much harsher environment
> than the outside.
>
> Obviously the concept of toxic preservative on the inner layer is a no-no.
>
> Cheers
>

If you want a cheap solution, a few pallets nailed/tied together plus a few
stakes.
Lasts three or four years.
You can undo the string to get the stuff out.
The important thing is to have a rainproof lid. Say a bit of old roofing.
Insulation is unnecessary.
You might need to water it occasionally but lots of cold rain is bad.
It should rot down in three or four months in Summer, six months in Winter.
There will always be some that doesn't rot in a small heap. Doesn't seem to
matter, dig it in anyway.

[Mark]

Tim Watts wrote:

> On Thursday 20 June 2013 18:00 Mark wrote in uk.d-i-y:
>
>> I just use pallets with a DPM around the inside and a bit of old carpet
>> on top
>> it doesn't get steaming hot but everything rots down eventually
>> and you get interesting wild life making a home in it.
>> http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3640/9sey.jpg
>
> I've had those too (Slow Worms).
>
>

"In recent years slow-worm numbers have declined dramatically, mainly as a
result of habitat loss and intensive land-use. The remaining populations in
allotments and gardens are now especially important to the survival of this
species. They are really beneficial to gardens as they eat a variety of
pests, so if you have any, please look after them.
Have a compost heap which allows slow-worms to crawl through it and feed
inside."

all the more reason not to build a Hot Fusion compost heap ;)

-

[Tim Watts]

Undoubtedly - the garden "came" with a couple of those crappy "free council
hand out" jobbies - completely useless. Does not retain heat and no air
holes. I carefully placed in paving slabs spaced apart to allow excess
liquid to drain and worms to get in. Still tends to not work at all well.

> As stuff
> decomposes it will generate heat. Slowly, steadily and surely. I've had
> some real steamers.

I have never had that. It gets warm once in a while when I dump a load of
grass in. That was my reasoning for insulating it. The worms like the
kitchen waste - but its that part that turns mushy. I do not have much dry
material like leaves or paper.

> Like many I use a series of wooden pallets. Open to the ground and covered
> with a bit of old carpet. No insulation. Turned (very infrequently) when
> I'm not up to other more pressing stuff.
> Open to the ground is fairly portant, to me anyway.

Perhaps that might help?

I was taking design hints from this:

https://www.aerobin400.com/aerobin400-UK/index.aspx

which is insulated, central air pipe and a rediculous price!

> The good folk at uk.rec.gardening would be able to give better advice.
> Nick.

[Tim Watts]

Valid point. Although the slow worms are sharing my bin of crap with a rat
or two - caught the bugger legging it in the other day...

[Martin Brown]

The free council handout ones are OK for making leaf mould which is a
slow cold process and takes a couple of years at optimum conditions. I
turn mine once a year (I compost more than is permitted in the green bin
and use that for leaf mould production as well).

The usual reason for not getting a compost heap to behave is never
putting enough material on it at a time for it to get properly hot.

>
>> As stuff
>> decomposes it will generate heat. Slowly, steadily and surely. I've had
>> some real steamers.
>
> I have never had that. It gets warm once in a while when I dump a load of
> grass in. That was my reasoning for insulating it. The worms like the
> kitchen waste - but its that part that turns mushy. I do not have much dry
> material like leaves or paper.

You shouldn't really put deciduous tree leaves in as they contain
antifungal components that can stall a compost heap. Better used to make
leaf mould elsewhere.

>
>> Like many I use a series of wooden pallets. Open to the ground and covered
>> with a bit of old carpet. No insulation. Turned (very infrequently) when
>> I'm not up to other more pressing stuff.
>> Open to the ground is fairly portant, to me anyway.
>
> Perhaps that might help?
>
> I was taking design hints from this:
>
> https://www.aerobin400.com/aerobin400-UK/index.aspx
>
> which is insulated, central air pipe and a rediculous price!
>
>> The good folk at uk.rec.gardening would be able to give better advice.
>> Nick.

You are over engineering it. Sides and a simple cover to keep a bit more
heat in might help but the heap also needs air so palettes are ideal.
The trick is in keeping the heap properly aerated since if it goes
anaerobic then you get slimy mush and unwelcome smells.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[alan]

On 20/06/2013 14:01, Martin Brown wrote:

> To bootstrap a hot heap it helps to add some proprietory accelerator
> like Garrotta the first time (and just the right amount of water). This
> is more important for small domestic garden heaps.

Urine works just as well and is cheaper Just piss in a bucket for a day
and add that to the heap.

To get a heap hot you just need enough material - a hand full of kitchen
waste or one grass box of cuttings at a time is unlikely to get the
temperature up.

This time of year I can fill a large compost bin with my grass cuttings.
I mix this with other household waste, cardboard, shredded paper etc.
and the thin walled plastic bin will run hot for week.

I have another couple of bins that run cold but have many
hundreds/thousands of worms doing the work. They live in the top few
inches so the bin is ideal for adding small amounts of waste at a time.
These are not the expensive worm refuges advertised as a solution for
small household. They are ordinary "darlek" bins with an open base,
placed on soil and populated by the worms that have found the bin
themselves. It takes perhaps 12/18months to get a bin full of usable
compost.

As someone else has written, my larger bin is situated on earth and has
holes at the base and attracts many slow worms. When I last emptied it
I found 8 slow worms, next time I will check more carefully when they
breed to ensure that I don't disturb them during this period.

--
mailto:news{at}admac(dot}myzen{dot}co{dot}uk

[Martin Brown]

On 21/06/2013 08:42, alan wrote:
> On 20/06/2013 14:01, Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> To bootstrap a hot heap it helps to add some proprietory accelerator
>> like Garrotta the first time (and just the right amount of water). This
>> is more important for small domestic garden heaps.
>
> Urine works just as well and is cheaper Just piss in a bucket for a day
> and add that to the heap.

That just supplies extra nitrogen which in a heap with too many grass
cuttings already will only make matters worse and more ammonical. The
advantage of Garrotta is that it is free dried fungal mix and some
ammonium salts (you can cut it with much cheaper ammonium sulphate). It
is in effect compost starter culture with the right mix of fungi and
bacteria to get things going the right way.
It is ideal for making a small domestic heap go hot reliably. I don't
often recommend proprietory products but this one really does do what it
says on the tin (unlike a certain paint product I could mention).

Most problems are down to squishing the stuff down too hard and making
an anaerobic heap of slime. Adding shredded brown cardboard to bulk it
up and provide some transient insulation should help. I don't bother. A
lot of what is written on the net about compost heaps is really rather
odd American gardeners obsessing about C to N ratios.

>
> To get a heap hot you just need enough material - a hand full of kitchen
> waste or one grass box of cuttings at a time is unlikely to get the
> temperature up.

And that I suspect is the OPs primary problem. A 1.5m^3 heap isn't big -
my heaps are about 6m^3 each and rot down to about 2m^3 of compost.

>
> This time of year I can fill a large compost bin with my grass cuttings.
> I mix this with other household waste, cardboard, shredded paper etc.
> and the thin walled plastic bin will run hot for week.
>
> I have another couple of bins that run cold but have many
> hundreds/thousands of worms doing the work. They live in the top few
> inches so the bin is ideal for adding small amounts of waste at a time.
> These are not the expensive worm refuges advertised as a solution for
> small household. They are ordinary "darlek" bins with an open base,
> placed on soil and populated by the worms that have found the bin
> themselves. It takes perhaps 12/18months to get a bin full of usable
> compost.
>
> As someone else has written, my larger bin is situated on earth and has
> holes at the base and attracts many slow worms. When I last emptied it
> I found 8 slow worms, next time I will check more carefully when they
> breed to ensure that I don't disturb them during this period.

My heap has variously had grass snakes, frogs, toads in it (and the odd
rat which I do see off). Never had slow worms that I have seen. It is a
surprising to get so many amphibians lurking as the nearest permanent
water is at least half a mile away and across a road!

They also hide under my lowest hedge where there is a borderline spring
during wet winters but just slightly damper dark cool ground in summer.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[The Natural Philosopher]

<snip loads of bollocks>

Why does composting always bring out the Russ Andrews in people?

Just collect it all, pile it in a heap and leave it for 3 years.

If you want it composted quicker than that feed it to a rabbit or a
horse or a goat. Hint: you get to eat the horse/rabbit/goat afterwards
as well.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

[Martin Bonner]

On Friday, June 21, 2013 10:51:43 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> <snip loads of bollocks>
>
> Why does composting always bring out the Russ Andrews in people?

Good question

> Just collect it all, pile it in a heap and leave it for 3 years.

The advice I saw in uk.rec.gardening was: Compost needs
three things to rot well:
- air
- water
- time

If you have some old compost that hasn't rotted properly, add
whichever of the first two is missing (via turning+shredded
cardboard or a watering can), and wait a bit more.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 21/06/13 13:49, Martin Bonner wrote:
> On Friday, June 21, 2013 10:51:43 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> <snip loads of bollocks>
>>
>> Why does composting always bring out the Russ Andrews in people?
> Good question
>
>> Just collect it all, pile it in a heap and leave it for 3 years.
> The advice I saw in uk.rec.gardening was: Compost needs
> three things to rot well:
> - air
> - water
> - time

+1
thats the biggest problem with grass cuttings. They tend to go all
syrupy and end up anaerobic. And then a different sort of bacteria get
involved and they smell like bad teeth. Really vile.
we tend to mix em with leaves and tiggy stuff.

> If you have some old compost that hasn't rotted properly, add
> whichever of the first two is missing (via turning+shredded
> cardboard or a watering can), and wait a bit more.

yep.

[Rick Hughes]

On 20/06/2013 11:22, Tim Watts wrote:

> I'd like to make a large (1.5m3) wooden compost bin that's insulated to try
> to run the compost hot. My existing bins are crap and it just sits there
> slowly turning into mush despite turning and the bottom being open to drain.

>

Would have thought base needs to be open or at least mesh to allow
liquids to drain

[Rick Hughes]

Fastest compost makers are the tumble type, like a 45 gall drum on its
side, you turn it over every day ... compost in a month if enough
nitrates in there.
Can of urine speeds things up.

[Rick Hughes]

On 20/06/2013 23:10, Tim Watts wrote:

You need to get mix right or you get slime ....
RHS do a good leaflet on composting.

Contrary to what most people do ... grass cuttings are not good in
excess, no more than 20%
I put shredded egg boxes & contents of office shredder ... and keep
layering.
I would like to say I turn it regularly ... but I don't once in 4 months
at most.

Like many I can't put 2m3 in at a time ... so not classed as hot stack
... mine get frequent small quantities.

[Tim Watts]

It is open sort of - sits over loose paving slabs with gaps. IO was trying
to make the drainage gaps not too big to stop the rats, though they seem to
have just pinged round the flimsy front hatch.