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Frustrations arising from adding a second door bell
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PaulS
Oct 27, 2018, 11:43:46 AM10/27/18
to
Hi Everyone,
I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
When the house was rewired many years ago a cable (bog standard 2 core bell wire) was passed through the cavity / under floors from the under-the-stairs transformer adjacent to the breaker panel, to the front door bell push via an over the door bell (https://www.screwfix.com/p/byron-1200-wired-underdome-bell-brass/14337) providing a simple door bell setup.
Mains
| |
____|__|_____
| | ______
| Transformer |------------------------| |
| | | Bell |
| 8VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
|_____________|
When I built my office I ran a cable from a second bell in the office back to the under-the-stairs panel. From past experience I knew i wouldn't be able to hear the existing bell when working.
Initially I tested each bell individually - both ring when they're the only one on the circuit. I then wired the bells in series. No sound. I hadn't really expected them to as the 8 Volt transformer wouldn't have the oomph to drive 2 bells in series.
______
Mains | |
| | | Bell |
____|__|_____ |______|
| | | | ______
| Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
| | | Bell |
| 8VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
|_____________|
I replaced the 8 Volt transformer with a transformer tapped at 8, 16 and 24 and tried again. Still no go.
______
Mains | |
| | | Bell |
____|__|_____ |______|
| | | | ______
| Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
| | | Bell |
| 16-24VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
|_____________|
The bells are similar and when poked with my multimeter I can see what appears to be an adequate voltage across the terminals (testing from where the wires terminate near the transformer).
My next thought was that it might be something to do with the way the bell mechanisms work - making and breaking the circuit and that being out of sync in such a way as to prevent either bell from working - so I modified the circuit and added a 12VAC relay.
______ ______
Mains | |------------| |
| | | Relay| | Bell |
____|__|_____ |______|------------|______|
| | | | ______
| Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
| | | Bell |
| 16-24VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
|_____________|
When the bell push is pressed, the relay operates, but the bell in series with it doesn't. Frustrating!
Somewhere in the dim recesses of my memory I can recall adding a capacitor in parallel to an inductive load (such as the bell or the relay) might be of some use in such situations. But what type of capacitor and what value? Anyone?
Could anyone explain precisely why the original 2 bells in series with what appears to be adequate voltage and the bell and relay in series don't work?
Any other novel solutions I might use given that:
- There is only one 2 core wire in place to the front door where the first bell and switch (bell push) are and no option of adding another.
- There is only one 2 core wire to the second bell.
- I only have access to the wires where they terminate near the transformer. This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells in parallel.
- Wireless is not an option. I need a fix and forget set-up with no batteries.
Long read I know, so thanks for reading.
I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
When the house was rewired many years ago a cable (bog standard 2 core bell wire) was passed through the cavity / under floors from the under-the-stairs transformer adjacent to the breaker panel, to the front door bell push via an over the door bell (https://www.screwfix.com/p/byron-1200-wired-underdome-bell-brass/14337) providing a simple door bell setup.
Mains
| |
____|__|_____
| | ______
| Transformer |------------------------| |
| | | Bell |
| 8VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
|_____________|
When I built my office I ran a cable from a second bell in the office back to the under-the-stairs panel. From past experience I knew i wouldn't be able to hear the existing bell when working.
Initially I tested each bell individually - both ring when they're the only one on the circuit. I then wired the bells in series. No sound. I hadn't really expected them to as the 8 Volt transformer wouldn't have the oomph to drive 2 bells in series.
______
Mains | |
| | | Bell |
____|__|_____ |______|
| | | | ______
| Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
| | | Bell |
| 8VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
|_____________|
I replaced the 8 Volt transformer with a transformer tapped at 8, 16 and 24 and tried again. Still no go.
______
Mains | |
| | | Bell |
____|__|_____ |______|
| | | | ______
| Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
| | | Bell |
| 16-24VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
|_____________|
The bells are similar and when poked with my multimeter I can see what appears to be an adequate voltage across the terminals (testing from where the wires terminate near the transformer).
My next thought was that it might be something to do with the way the bell mechanisms work - making and breaking the circuit and that being out of sync in such a way as to prevent either bell from working - so I modified the circuit and added a 12VAC relay.
______ ______
Mains | |------------| |
| | | Relay| | Bell |
____|__|_____ |______|------------|______|
| | | | ______
| Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
| | | Bell |
| 16-24VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
|_____________|
When the bell push is pressed, the relay operates, but the bell in series with it doesn't. Frustrating!
Somewhere in the dim recesses of my memory I can recall adding a capacitor in parallel to an inductive load (such as the bell or the relay) might be of some use in such situations. But what type of capacitor and what value? Anyone?
Could anyone explain precisely why the original 2 bells in series with what appears to be adequate voltage and the bell and relay in series don't work?
Any other novel solutions I might use given that:
- There is only one 2 core wire in place to the front door where the first bell and switch (bell push) are and no option of adding another.
- There is only one 2 core wire to the second bell.
- I only have access to the wires where they terminate near the transformer. This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells in parallel.
- Wireless is not an option. I need a fix and forget set-up with no batteries.
Long read I know, so thanks for reading.
I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
Harry Bloomfield
Oct 27, 2018, 12:05:06 PM10/27/18
to
PaulS presented the following explanation :
with their correct working voltage.
> Any other novel solutions I might use given that:
> - There is only one 2 core wire in place to the front door where the first
> bell and switch (bell push) are and no option of adding another.
> - There is only one 2 core wire to the second bell.
> - I only have access to the wires where they terminate near the transformer.
> This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells in parallel.
> - Wireless is not an option. I need a fix and forget set-up with no
> batteries.
>
> Long read I know, so thanks for reading.
>
> I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
The two bells need to be wired in parallel with each other and supplied
> - There is only one 2 core wire in place to the front door where the first
> bell and switch (bell push) are and no option of adding another.
> - There is only one 2 core wire to the second bell.
> - I only have access to the wires where they terminate near the transformer.
> This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells in parallel.
> - Wireless is not an option. I need a fix and forget set-up with no
> batteries.
>
> Long read I know, so thanks for reading.
>
> I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
with their correct working voltage.
Brian-Gaff
Oct 27, 2018, 12:20:21 PM10/27/18
to
Are these AC bells or DC bells, from what you say of using a relay, one
supposes dC are they chimes or actual mechanical bells? Personally in any
bell I'd wire them in parallel and get a transformer rated for a higher load
and that should work.
Brian
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"PaulS" <pa...@lightspeed.co.uk> wrote in message
news:596aaf11-afcc-4e1f...@googlegroups.com...
supposes dC are they chimes or actual mechanical bells? Personally in any
bell I'd wire them in parallel and get a transformer rated for a higher load
and that should work.
Brian
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read my posts! :-)
"PaulS" <pa...@lightspeed.co.uk> wrote in message
news:596aaf11-afcc-4e1f...@googlegroups.com...
Max Demian
Oct 27, 2018, 12:20:45 PM10/27/18
to
On 27/10/2018 16:43, PaulS wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
>
> When the house was rewired many years ago a cable (bog standard 2 core bell wire) was passed through the cavity / under floors from the under-the-stairs transformer adjacent to the breaker panel, to the front door bell push via an over the door bell (https://www.screwfix.com/p/byron-1200-wired-underdome-bell-brass/14337) providing a simple door bell setup.
>
> Mains
> | |
> ____|__|_____
> | | ______
> | Transformer |------------------------| |
> | | | Bell |
> | 8VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
> |_____________|
>
> When I built my office I ran a cable from a second bell in the office back to the under-the-stairs panel. From past experience I knew i wouldn't be able to hear the existing bell when working.
>
> Initially I tested each bell individually - both ring when they're the only one on the circuit. I then wired the bells in series. No sound. I hadn't really expected them to as the 8 Volt transformer wouldn't have the oomph to drive 2 bells in series.
I think you would normally have to wire them in parallel for it to work.
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
>
> When the house was rewired many years ago a cable (bog standard 2 core bell wire) was passed through the cavity / under floors from the under-the-stairs transformer adjacent to the breaker panel, to the front door bell push via an over the door bell (https://www.screwfix.com/p/byron-1200-wired-underdome-bell-brass/14337) providing a simple door bell setup.
>
> Mains
> | |
> ____|__|_____
> | | ______
> | Transformer |------------------------| |
> | | | Bell |
> | 8VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
> |_____________|
>
> When I built my office I ran a cable from a second bell in the office back to the under-the-stairs panel. From past experience I knew i wouldn't be able to hear the existing bell when working.
>
> Initially I tested each bell individually - both ring when they're the only one on the circuit. I then wired the bells in series. No sound. I hadn't really expected them to as the 8 Volt transformer wouldn't have the oomph to drive 2 bells in series.
Maybe if you shorted out the contact of the second bell it might work in
series.
--
Max Demian
Brian-Gaff
Oct 27, 2018, 12:21:46 PM10/27/18
to
I just do not see any other way than wiring in parallel. Surely it only
needs one more wire, and it does not even need to go the same route.
news:pr22bg$au2$1...@dont-email.me...
needs one more wire, and it does not even need to go the same route.
Brian
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read my posts! :-)
"Harry Bloomfield" <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
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spuorg...@gowanhill.com
Oct 27, 2018, 12:40:52 PM10/27/18
to
On Saturday, 27 October 2018 16:43:46 UTC+1, PaulS wrote:
> My next thought was that it might be something to do with the way the bell
> mechanisms work - making and breaking the circuit and that being out of
> sync in such a way as to prevent either bell from working - so I modified
> the circuit and added a 12VAC relay.
With the relay, where is the additional bell getting its current from?
> My next thought was that it might be something to do with the way the bell
> mechanisms work - making and breaking the circuit and that being out of
> sync in such a way as to prevent either bell from working - so I modified
> the circuit and added a 12VAC relay.
Trembler bells wired in series will *not* work.
The 'standard' way to run trembler bells in series is to short the interrupter contacts on the second bell(s). Thus both bells respond to the make-and-break generated by the first bell's interrupter.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-349-02087-4_12
You may need to add a snubber across the first bell's interrupter as it'll be handling a larger than intended inductive load.
I prefer Friedland or Gent bells to Byron.
Owain
newshound
Oct 27, 2018, 1:11:48 PM10/27/18
to
On 27/10/2018 16:43, PaulS wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
>
<snipped>>
>
> I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
>
> I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
>
By far the best fix that I have found is to use wireless bells for the
>
extension(s). Whilst the instructions say that the "sender" should just
be connected to the bell push, mine actually works fine connected across
a bell push that is operating a traditional transformer / bell setup.
Bells are either battery or plug into mains.
Byron are probably the "gold standard" but there are cheap clones
around. Some of the better ones have a choice of frequencies if you have
lots of bells in the neighbourhood. Some of them have a surprisingly
long range (obviously more chance of interference in that case).
tabb...@gmail.com
Oct 27, 2018, 3:13:20 PM10/27/18
to
On Saturday, 27 October 2018 17:40:52 UTC+1, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
> On Saturday, 27 October 2018 16:43:46 UTC+1, PaulS wrote:
> > My next thought was that it might be something to do with the way the bell
> > mechanisms work - making and breaking the circuit and that being out of
> > sync in such a way as to prevent either bell from working - so I modified
> > the circuit and added a 12VAC relay.
>
> With the relay, where is the additional bell getting its current from?
>
> Trembler bells wired in series will *not* work.
>
> The 'standard' way to run trembler bells in series is to short the interrupter contacts on the second bell(s). Thus both bells respond to the make-and-break generated by the first bell's interrupter.
Bingo. But realise that the 2 may tremble at different speeds, in which case you need to let the slower trembler run & short the faster. IIRC this is all covered in the wiki doorbell article.
> On Saturday, 27 October 2018 16:43:46 UTC+1, PaulS wrote:
> > My next thought was that it might be something to do with the way the bell
> > mechanisms work - making and breaking the circuit and that being out of
> > sync in such a way as to prevent either bell from working - so I modified
> > the circuit and added a 12VAC relay.
>
> With the relay, where is the additional bell getting its current from?
>
> Trembler bells wired in series will *not* work.
>
> The 'standard' way to run trembler bells in series is to short the interrupter contacts on the second bell(s). Thus both bells respond to the make-and-break generated by the first bell's interrupter.
NT
Steve Walker
Oct 27, 2018, 4:37:43 PM10/27/18
to
On 27/10/2018 17:20, Brian-Gaff wrote:
> Are these AC bells or DC bells, from what you say of using a relay, one
> supposes dC are they chimes or actual mechanical bells? Personally in any
> bell I'd wire them in parallel and get a transformer rated for a higher load
> and that should work.
> Brian
Bells powered from transformers are usually AC (but most would work fine
> Are these AC bells or DC bells, from what you say of using a relay, one
> supposes dC are they chimes or actual mechanical bells? Personally in any
> bell I'd wire them in parallel and get a transformer rated for a higher load
> and that should work.
> Brian
on DC). There are plenty of relays designed to have their coils operated
by AC.
SteveW
Terry Casey
Oct 27, 2018, 4:40:21 PM10/27/18
to
In article <596aaf11-afcc-4e1f-a45b-
8b92c6...@googlegroups.com>, pa...@lightspeed.co.uk says...
this?
Mains
| |
____|__|_____
| | Joint ______
| Transformer |------------x-----------| |
| | | Bell |
| 16-24VAC |---------| |---------|______|
|_____________| | |
| |
|-/--|
Switch
If so, your only chance is, as others have already said, to
short out the interrupter in one of the bells.
If that doesn't work first time - you might have to adjust the
gong/clapper arrangement in the slave bell, try it the other
way round so thst the master becomes the slave and vice-versa.
Idea!
If that doesn't work, try this:
you will need a transformer, a silcon diode, an electrolytic
capacitor, a relay and a battery.
Connect the transformer seciondary in series with the output
of the transformer. One side of the primary should be
connected to the end of the diode which doesn't have a stripe
or coloured band and the other end of the diode to the
positive side of the electrolytic. The negative is then
connecyed to the other side of the primary.
Now connect the relay coil across the electrolytic. Press the
bell and ensure that, when the relay operates, the contacts
remain closed until the bell is stopped. If the contacts open
and close in time with the bell, you'll need a larger
capacitor.
Connect the slave bell and the battery in series with the
relay contacts. The slave should now ring at the same time as
the master.
Like this:
________ D ______
| |----->|----|----| |
| TR | |+ | Bell |
| | C --- |______|
| | --- ___|___
|________|---| | | |
| | | | | Batt |
|______| --------|----|______|
| |
| | | Relay|
Terry
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8b92c6...@googlegroups.com>, pa...@lightspeed.co.uk says...
>
> - I only have access to the wires where they terminate near
> the transformer. This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells
> in parallel.
So, just to clarify, your original wiring actually looks like
> - I only have access to the wires where they terminate near
> the transformer. This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells
> in parallel.
this?
Mains
| |
____|__|_____
| | Joint ______
| Transformer |------------x-----------| |
| | | Bell |
| 16-24VAC |---------| |---------|______|
|_____________| | |
| |
|-/--|
Switch
If so, your only chance is, as others have already said, to
short out the interrupter in one of the bells.
If that doesn't work first time - you might have to adjust the
gong/clapper arrangement in the slave bell, try it the other
way round so thst the master becomes the slave and vice-versa.
Idea!
If that doesn't work, try this:
you will need a transformer, a silcon diode, an electrolytic
capacitor, a relay and a battery.
Connect the transformer seciondary in series with the output
of the transformer. One side of the primary should be
connected to the end of the diode which doesn't have a stripe
or coloured band and the other end of the diode to the
positive side of the electrolytic. The negative is then
connecyed to the other side of the primary.
Now connect the relay coil across the electrolytic. Press the
bell and ensure that, when the relay operates, the contacts
remain closed until the bell is stopped. If the contacts open
and close in time with the bell, you'll need a larger
capacitor.
Connect the slave bell and the battery in series with the
relay contacts. The slave should now ring at the same time as
the master.
Like this:
________ D ______
| |----->|----|----| |
| TR | |+ | Bell |
| | C --- |______|
| | --- ___|___
|________|---| | | |
| | | | | Batt |
|______| --------|----|______|
| |
| | | Relay|
____|__|_____ |______|
| | | | ______
| Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
| | | Bell |
| 16-24VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
|_____________|
--
| | | | ______
| Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
| | | Bell |
| 16-24VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
|_____________|
Terry
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Brian Gaff
Oct 27, 2018, 5:35:55 PM10/27/18
to
Well, yes but they do tend to chatter. I have to say, most bells I've had
have used DC, raw, but still DC.
I guess it depends on what you buy.
I'm still Trying to understand the wiring here and why one cannot put them
across each other.
Brian
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have used DC, raw, but still DC.
I guess it depends on what you buy.
I'm still Trying to understand the wiring here and why one cannot put them
across each other.
Brian
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Brian Gaff
Oct 27, 2018, 5:37:36 PM10/27/18
to
Interesting concept, In my experience this then just buzzes a bit.
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Brian
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Brian Gaff
Oct 27, 2018, 5:41:33 PM10/27/18
to
If the bells will work on DC how about putting a large current diode in anti
phase so to speak across each bell, then one half cycle will run one bell
and the other half cycle the other bell.
news:gd49td1re71rcek5a...@4ax.com...
> As others have said, wire the bells in parallel. If it takes 8 volts
> to activate a bell and you wire two in series, you're only going to
> get 4 volts across each bell, so neither will work, although I would
> have expected them to work from the bigger transformer, assuming that
> you've tapped off at 16v and the transformer could supply the
> necessary current. When you tested the volts on that bigger
> transformer, did you have the bell-push pressed? I suspect not, and if
> you had done, you might have found the voltage dropped significantly.
>
> But even if you do wire the bells in parallel, the original
> transformer still might not have enough oomph to activate both bells.
> Do the bells say what current they take, and does your original
> transformer say what it can supply?
>
> --
>
> Chris
phase so to speak across each bell, then one half cycle will run one bell
and the other half cycle the other bell.
Brian
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> to activate a bell and you wire two in series, you're only going to
> get 4 volts across each bell, so neither will work, although I would
> have expected them to work from the bigger transformer, assuming that
> you've tapped off at 16v and the transformer could supply the
> necessary current. When you tested the volts on that bigger
> transformer, did you have the bell-push pressed? I suspect not, and if
> you had done, you might have found the voltage dropped significantly.
>
> But even if you do wire the bells in parallel, the original
> transformer still might not have enough oomph to activate both bells.
> Do the bells say what current they take, and does your original
> transformer say what it can supply?
>
> --
>
> Chris
Brian Gaff
Oct 27, 2018, 5:44:19 PM10/27/18
to
Well all I can say is that when I tried this some time back the same bell
nearly always, just buzzed. I imagine it might work if both are exactly the
same bells with the windings the same.
news:0f18b87d-54fe-4824...@googlegroups.com...
nearly always, just buzzed. I imagine it might work if both are exactly the
same bells with the windings the same.
Brian
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Johnny B Good
Oct 28, 2018, 12:22:04 AM10/28/18
to
On Sat, 27 Oct 2018 22:35:47 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Well, yes but they do tend to chatter. I have to say, most bells I've
> had have used DC, raw, but still DC.
> I guess it depends on what you buy.
>
> I'm still Trying to understand the wiring here and why one cannot put
> them across each other.
Paul's explained his problem quite fully in words, along with some ASCII
> Well, yes but they do tend to chatter. I have to say, most bells I've
> had have used DC, raw, but still DC.
> I guess it depends on what you buy.
>
> I'm still Trying to understand the wiring here and why one cannot put
> them across each other.
art to show the wiring schematic. The schematics are a little redundant
since the words paint, in this case, an adequate picture. :-)
However, to cut to the chase, his problem is that the wire from the
second bell is going to where the transformer is located. It would be
quite simple to wire them in parallel if the wire from the second bell
had gone to the first one but it doesn't, hence the series arrangement
along with a transformer upgrade to a higher voltage one to compensate
for the series circuit arrangement of the bells being attempted in this
case.
Presumably these are both (identical?) trembler bells so it's possible
that both bells are in need of adjustment to balance up their current
demands. Even so, they'll each need a suitably rated resistor wired
across them to dampen down the effects of the current pulses being
generated in the bell circuit by the interrupter contacts. A resistor
value of one and a half times the bell coil resistance would be a good
starting point but you might need to match the resistors to that of the
bell coil resistances and accept the penalty of a higher current demand
being placed on the bell transformer.
Otoh, if the bells in question aren't identical units, then it may
simply be a case that the second bell is a lower resistance type that
demands much more current from the bell transformer than the original
bell required. Such a mismatch won't be helped by the current pulses
generated by the first bell which may well be reducing the duty cycle as
it receives more voltage from the higher voltage transformer being used,
effectively limiting the average current available to the other bell in
spite of the higher voltage being applied. Given enough of a mismatch,
the lower resistance bell won't be receiving enough current to operate
its interrupter contacts in this case.
--
Johnny B Good
Johnny B Good
Oct 28, 2018, 12:30:40 AM10/28/18
to
On Sat, 27 Oct 2018 09:40:49 -0700, spuorgelgoog wrote:
> On Saturday, 27 October 2018 16:43:46 UTC+1, PaulS wrote:
>> My next thought was that it might be something to do with the way the
>> bell mechanisms work - making and breaking the circuit and that being
>> out of sync in such a way as to prevent either bell from working - so I
>> modified the circuit and added a 12VAC relay.
>
> With the relay, where is the additional bell getting its current from
>
> On Saturday, 27 October 2018 16:43:46 UTC+1, PaulS wrote:
>> My next thought was that it might be something to do with the way the
>> bell mechanisms work - making and breaking the circuit and that being
>> out of sync in such a way as to prevent either bell from working - so I
>> modified the circuit and added a 12VAC relay.
>
> With the relay, where is the additional bell getting its current from
>
> Trembler bells wired in series will *not* work.
>
> The 'standard' way to run trembler bells in series is to short the
> interrupter contacts on the second bell(s). Thus both bells respond to
> the make-and-break generated by the first bell's interrupter.
In principal, that only stands a chance of success if both bells are
>
> The 'standard' way to run trembler bells in series is to short the
> interrupter contacts on the second bell(s). Thus both bells respond to
> the make-and-break generated by the first bell's interrupter.
identical and, more importantly, you can 'tune' the hammer/bell
combination to match the resonant frequency of the hammer/bell combo of
the driver bell.
--
Johnny B Good
Jeff Layman
Oct 28, 2018, 4:35:21 AM10/28/18
to
On 27/10/18 18:11, newshound wrote:
> On 27/10/2018 16:43, PaulS wrote:
>> Hi Everyone,
>>
>> I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
>>
> <snipped>>
>> I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
>>
>
> By far the best fix that I have found is to use wireless bells for the
> extension(s). Whilst the instructions say that the "sender" should just
> be connected to the bell push, mine actually works fine connected across
> a bell push that is operating a traditional transformer / bell setup.
>
> Bells are either battery or plug into mains.
I wonder why the OP won't/can't use a wireless bell?
> On 27/10/2018 16:43, PaulS wrote:
>> Hi Everyone,
>>
>> I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
>>
> <snipped>>
>> I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
>>
>
> By far the best fix that I have found is to use wireless bells for the
> extension(s). Whilst the instructions say that the "sender" should just
> be connected to the bell push, mine actually works fine connected across
> a bell push that is operating a traditional transformer / bell setup.
>
> Bells are either battery or plug into mains.
> Byron are probably the "gold standard" but there are cheap clones
> around. Some of the better ones have a choice of frequencies if you have
> lots of bells in the neighbourhood. Some of them have a surprisingly
> long range (obviously more chance of interference in that case).
batteries. It was replaced by a Friedland with one mains bell and one
battery bell. The latter hasn't needed new batteries in over 2 years.
--
Jeff
Martin Brown
Oct 28, 2018, 5:48:32 AM10/28/18
to
draw a surprisingly high pulse of current and the original transformer
may not be man enough to deliver enough current for two of them.
I have a loud piezo-electric self contained beeper as my office repeater
which presents a minimal load to the original circuit.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Terry Casey
Oct 28, 2018, 6:29:42 AM10/28/18
to
In article <pr2m2b$7f6$1...@dont-email.me>, briang1
@blueyonder.co.uk says...
for that matter).
I can see no reason it shoulsn't work and has the added
advantage of extreme simplicity.
Provided. of course, the bells haven't been wired with
traditional bell wire which had no colour coded conductors for
identification!
However, a simple meter check with the series bells
temporarily powered by a battery should resolve that problem.
@blueyonder.co.uk says...
>
> If the bells will work on DC how about putting a large current diode in anti
> phase so to speak across each bell, then one half cycle will run one bell
> and the other half cycle the other bell.
Now that is one solution I hadn't thought of (or anybody else,
> If the bells will work on DC how about putting a large current diode in anti
> phase so to speak across each bell, then one half cycle will run one bell
> and the other half cycle the other bell.
for that matter).
I can see no reason it shoulsn't work and has the added
advantage of extreme simplicity.
Provided. of course, the bells haven't been wired with
traditional bell wire which had no colour coded conductors for
identification!
However, a simple meter check with the series bells
temporarily powered by a battery should resolve that problem.
tabb...@gmail.com
Oct 28, 2018, 6:39:01 AM10/28/18
to
On Sunday, 28 October 2018 10:29:42 UTC, Terry Casey wrote:
> In article <pr2m2b$7f6$1...@dont-email.me>, briang1
> @blueyonder.co.uk says...
> >
> > If the bells will work on DC how about putting a large current diode in anti
> > phase so to speak across each bell, then one half cycle will run one bell
> > and the other half cycle the other bell.
>
> Now that is one solution I hadn't thought of (or anybody else,
> for that matter).
>
> I can see no reason it shoulsn't work and has the added
> advantage of extreme simplicity.
I can. But one could try it.
> In article <pr2m2b$7f6$1...@dont-email.me>, briang1
> @blueyonder.co.uk says...
> >
> > If the bells will work on DC how about putting a large current diode in anti
> > phase so to speak across each bell, then one half cycle will run one bell
> > and the other half cycle the other bell.
>
> Now that is one solution I hadn't thought of (or anybody else,
> for that matter).
>
> I can see no reason it shoulsn't work and has the added
> advantage of extreme simplicity.
> Provided. of course, the bells haven't been wired with
> traditional bell wire which had no colour coded conductors for
> identification!
NT
Terry Casey
Oct 28, 2018, 6:43:34 AM10/28/18
to
In article <1da421a5-2712-42b9-add8-659722765f22
@googlegroups.com>, tabb...@gmail.com says...
>
> I can.
Would you care to elucidate?
@googlegroups.com>, tabb...@gmail.com says...
>
> On Sunday, 28 October 2018 10:29:42 UTC, Terry Casey wrote:
> >
> > I can see no reason it shoulsn't work ...
> On Sunday, 28 October 2018 10:29:42 UTC, Terry Casey wrote:
> >
>
> I can.
Would you care to elucidate?
tabb...@gmail.com
Oct 28, 2018, 6:46:03 AM10/28/18
to
On Sunday, 28 October 2018 10:43:34 UTC, Terry Casey wrote:
> In article <1da421a5-2712-42b9-add8-659722765f22
> @googlegroups.com>, tabbypurr says...
> In article <1da421a5-2712-42b9-add8-659722765f22
> > On Sunday, 28 October 2018 10:29:42 UTC, Terry Casey wrote:
> > > I can see no reason it shoulsn't work ...
> >
> > I can.
>
> Would you care to elucidate?
The bells are only getting power half the time. You could try it, but I'm not really sure why one would choose that approach. Also asymmetric loading canes transformers.
> > > I can see no reason it shoulsn't work ...
> >
> > I can.
>
> Would you care to elucidate?
NT
Dave Plowman (News)
Oct 28, 2018, 6:57:07 AM10/28/18
to
In article <pr2iak$e9t$1...@dont-email.me>,
movement of the solenoid (usually called a trembler) An AC one just
follows the waveform. A DC type will usually work OK on AC, but not the
other way round.
--
*Am I ambivalent? Well, yes and no.
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Steve Walker <st...@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
> Bells powered from transformers are usually AC (but most would work fine
> on DC).
Not so if you do mean a bell. A DC one needs contacts operated by the
> Bells powered from transformers are usually AC (but most would work fine
> on DC).
movement of the solenoid (usually called a trembler) An AC one just
follows the waveform. A DC type will usually work OK on AC, but not the
other way round.
--
*Am I ambivalent? Well, yes and no.
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
The Natural Philosopher
Oct 28, 2018, 7:03:06 AM10/28/18
to
On 28/10/2018 10:43, Terry Casey wrote:
> In article <1da421a5-2712-42b9-add8-659722765f22
> @googlegroups.com>, tabb...@gmail.com says...
>>
>> On Sunday, 28 October 2018 10:29:42 UTC, Terry Casey wrote:
>>>
>>> I can see no reason it shoulsn't work ...
>>
>> I can.
>
> Would you care to elucidate?
>
>
half power
> In article <1da421a5-2712-42b9-add8-659722765f22
> @googlegroups.com>, tabb...@gmail.com says...
>>
>> On Sunday, 28 October 2018 10:29:42 UTC, Terry Casey wrote:
>>>
>>> I can see no reason it shoulsn't work ...
>>
>> I can.
>
> Would you care to elucidate?
>
>
--
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.
dr.s.l...@gmail.com
Oct 28, 2018, 7:25:41 AM10/28/18
to
On Saturday, 27 October 2018 16:43:46 UTC+1, PaulS wrote:
> Initially I tested each bell individually - both ring when they're the only one on the circuit.
You have been applying 16 or 24 V AC to a system including two similar bells which each worked on 8 V AC. Therefore, after any test in which you do not get ringing on both bells, you should test the bells individually on 8 V AC to ensure that each is still capable of working using the intended final cables.
If you have access at the bell end to the cable, you might consider pushing a thin needle into each wire (I'm supposing they are stranded) to make contact for electrical measurement.
You could try a Web search for solar powered door bell button - using such should mean that batteries don't need regular replacement - existing button for Home, new one for Office.
Your diagrams show no Earth connection. You should be sure that any touchable metal in the transformer is either well earthed or double-insulated and that one side of the transformer output is also well earthed.
--
(c) John Stockton, near London, UK. Using Google Groups. |
Mail: J.R.""""""""@physics.org - or as Reply-To, if any. |
Andy Burns
Oct 28, 2018, 8:11:30 AM10/28/18
to
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Terry Casey wrote:
>
>> tabb...@gmail.com says...
> Terry Casey wrote:
>
>> tabb...@gmail.com says...
>>
>>> Terry Casey wrote:
>>>
>>>> I can see no reason it shoulsn't work ...
>>>
>>> I can.
>>
>> Would you care to elucidate?
>
> half power
under half with diode drop.
>>> Terry Casey wrote:
>>>
>>>> I can see no reason it shoulsn't work ...
>>>
>>> I can.
>>
>> Would you care to elucidate?
>
> half power
Max Demian
Oct 28, 2018, 8:26:15 AM10/28/18
to
interrupter contact of each would try to interrupt the current to the
other bell, hence my suggestion the the contacts on one (designated the
slave) be connected together so the master bell would control both.
(I've no idea whether this would work.) Obviously the power source would
have to have to provide sufficient voltage and current.
--
Max Demian
tabb...@gmail.com
Oct 28, 2018, 2:43:24 PM10/28/18
to
Yuo could always try Colin Furze's bell.
NT
Dave W
Oct 28, 2018, 8:18:32 PM10/28/18
to
On Sat, 27 Oct 2018 08:43:44 -0700 (PDT), PaulS
<pa...@lightspeed.co.uk> wrote:
>Hi Everyone,
>
>I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
>
>Hi Everyone,
>
>I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
>
>My next thought was that it might be something to do with the way the bell mechanisms work - making and breaking the circuit and that being out of sync in such a way as to prevent either bell from working - so I modified the circuit and added a 12VAC relay.
>
>
> ______ ______
> Mains | |------------| |
> | | | Relay| | Bell |
> ____|__|_____ |______|------------|______|
>| | | | ______
>| Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
>| | | Bell |
>| 16-24VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
>|_____________|
>
>When the bell push is pressed, the relay operates, but the bell in series with it doesn't. Frustrating!
>
>Somewhere in the dim recesses of my memory I can recall adding a capacitor in parallel to an inductive load (such as the bell or the relay) might be of some use in such situations. But what type of capacitor and what value? Anyone?
>
>Could anyone explain precisely why the original 2 bells in series with what appears to be adequate voltage and the bell and relay in series don't work?
>
> Mains | |------------| |
> | | | Relay| | Bell |
> ____|__|_____ |______|------------|______|
>| | | | ______
>| Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
>| | | Bell |
>| 16-24VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
>|_____________|
>
>When the bell push is pressed, the relay operates, but the bell in series with it doesn't. Frustrating!
>
>Somewhere in the dim recesses of my memory I can recall adding a capacitor in parallel to an inductive load (such as the bell or the relay) might be of some use in such situations. But what type of capacitor and what value? Anyone?
>
>Could anyone explain precisely why the original 2 bells in series with what appears to be adequate voltage and the bell and relay in series don't work?
>
>Any other novel solutions I might use given that:
>- There is only one 2 core wire in place to the front door where the first bell and switch (bell push) are and no option of adding another.
>- There is only one 2 core wire to the second bell.
>- I only have access to the wires where they terminate near the transformer. This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells in parallel.
>- Wireless is not an option. I need a fix and forget set-up with no batteries.
>
>Long read I know, so thanks for reading.
>
>I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
I notice you haven't replied to any posts. I can't understnd your
>- There is only one 2 core wire in place to the front door where the first bell and switch (bell push) are and no option of adding another.
>- There is only one 2 core wire to the second bell.
>- I only have access to the wires where they terminate near the transformer. This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells in parallel.
>- Wireless is not an option. I need a fix and forget set-up with no batteries.
>
>Long read I know, so thanks for reading.
>
>I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
relay circuit - where does the second bell get its power from?
I would try adding two diode rectifiers to the transformer, charging
two electrolytic capacitors. A capacitor would also be needed across
at least one bell to make it independent of the other one's
interruptions. Each diode would peak rectify the 8VAC to give about
20V across the two bells in series. 1000uF might do for the
capacitors.
Mains
__|__|__
| | diode ______
| |--o-|>|-o---o---| 2nd |
| | | |+ |+ | Bell |
| | | cap = = |______|
| 8VAC | | | | |
| | | | o------o
| |--|-----o |
| | | | |
|________| | |+ | ______
| cap = o-----------------| Door |
| | | Bell |
o-|<|-o------------Switch---|______|
diode
Or you could use your 16V transformer feeding a bridge rectifier
instead of the diodes and two capacitors above.
--
Dave W
tabb...@gmail.com
Oct 28, 2018, 10:50:09 PM10/28/18
to
If bell is reluctant to start, rectifier & nice big capacitor gives it a kick to get it going. Your circuit will do that for the 1st bell. I'm not clear why one bell has a cap across it, one doesn't.
NT
Adrian Caspersz
Oct 29, 2018, 5:45:35 AM10/29/18
to
On 27/10/18 16:43, PaulS wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
>
<snip>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
>
Replace the office bell with the relay coil, the NO contacts wired to
charge a small battery via a simple DC charger circuit. Wire the NC
contacts to sound the DC bell from the battery.
--
Adrian C
Adrian Caspersz
Oct 29, 2018, 5:49:42 AM10/29/18
to
--
Adrian C
PaulS
Oct 29, 2018, 10:15:51 AM10/29/18
to
On Saturday, 27 October 2018 16:43:46 UTC+1, PaulS wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
>
PaulS
Oct 29, 2018, 10:21:14 AM10/29/18
to
On Saturday, 27 October 2018 17:05:06 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
> PaulS presented the following explanation :
> PaulS presented the following explanation :
> > Any other novel solutions I might use given that:
> > - There is only one 2 core wire in place to the front door where the first
> > bell and switch (bell push) are and no option of adding another.
> > - There is only one 2 core wire to the second bell.
> > - I only have access to the wires where they terminate near the transformer.
> > This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells in parallel.
> > - Wireless is not an option. I need a fix and forget set-up with no
> > batteries.
> >
> > Long read I know, so thanks for reading.
> >
> > I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
>
> > - There is only one 2 core wire in place to the front door where the first
> > bell and switch (bell push) are and no option of adding another.
> > - There is only one 2 core wire to the second bell.
> > - I only have access to the wires where they terminate near the transformer.
> > This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells in parallel.
> > - Wireless is not an option. I need a fix and forget set-up with no
> > batteries.
> >
> > Long read I know, so thanks for reading.
> >
> > I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
>
> The two bells need to be wired in parallel with each other and supplied
> with their correct working voltage.
Hi Harry,
> with their correct working voltage.
Parallel is not an option in this case. The switch / bell push is in series with the original bell on a single 2 core bell wire and I don't have the option to run a new wire to the switch.
Andy Burns
Oct 29, 2018, 10:27:08 AM10/29/18
to
PaulS wrote:
> Parallel is not an option in this case. The switch / bell push is in series with the original bell on a single 2 core bell wire and I don't have the option to run a new wire to the switch.
You might use a wired to wireless extender, if you can't run a new wire
> Parallel is not an option in this case. The switch / bell push is in series with the original bell on a single 2 core bell wire and I don't have the option to run a new wire to the switch.
<https://doorchimesuk.co.uk/catalog/index.php?cPath=42>
PaulS
Oct 29, 2018, 10:27:09 AM10/29/18
to
On Saturday, 27 October 2018 17:20:21 UTC+1, Brian-Gaff wrote:
> Are these AC bells or DC bells, from what you say of using a relay, one
> supposes dC are they chimes or actual mechanical bells? Personally in any
> bell I'd wire them in parallel and get a transformer rated for a higher load
> and that should work.
> Brian
>
> --
> Are these AC bells or DC bells, from what you say of using a relay, one
> supposes dC are they chimes or actual mechanical bells? Personally in any
> bell I'd wire them in parallel and get a transformer rated for a higher load
> and that should work.
> Brian
>
> From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
> Remember, if you don't like where I post
> or what I say, you don't have to
> read my posts! :-)
> Any other novel solutions I might use given that:
> - There is only one 2 core wire in place to the front door where the first
> bell and switch (bell push) are and no option of adding another.
> - There is only one 2 core wire to the second bell.
> - I only have access to the wires where they terminate near the transformer.
> This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells in parallel.
> - Wireless is not an option. I need a fix and forget set-up with no
> batteries.
>
> Long read I know, so thanks for reading.
>
> I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
Hi Brian,
> - There is only one 2 core wire in place to the front door where the first
> bell and switch (bell push) are and no option of adding another.
> - There is only one 2 core wire to the second bell.
> - I only have access to the wires where they terminate near the transformer.
> This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells in parallel.
> - Wireless is not an option. I need a fix and forget set-up with no
> batteries.
>
> Long read I know, so thanks for reading.
>
> I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
The (mechanical) bells are running on AC. I haven't tried them with DC yet. The relay is an AC relay. Parallel is not an option in this case. The switch / bell push is in series with the original bell on a single 2 core bell wire and I don't have the option to run a new wire to the switch.
PaulS
Oct 29, 2018, 10:28:17 AM10/29/18
to
On Saturday, 27 October 2018 17:20:45 UTC+1, Max Demian wrote:
> On 27/10/2018 16:43, PaulS wrote:
> On 27/10/2018 16:43, PaulS wrote:
> > Hi Everyone,
> >
> > I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
> >
> > When the house was rewired many years ago a cable (bog standard 2 core bell wire) was passed through the cavity / under floors from the under-the-stairs transformer adjacent to the breaker panel, to the front door bell push via an over the door bell (https://www.screwfix.com/p/byron-1200-wired-underdome-bell-brass/14337) providing a simple door bell setup.
> >
> > Mains
> > | |
> > ____|__|_____
> > | | ______
> > | Transformer |------------------------| |
> > | | | Bell |
> > | 8VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
> > |_____________|
> >
> > When I built my office I ran a cable from a second bell in the office back to the under-the-stairs panel. From past experience I knew i wouldn't be able to hear the existing bell when working.
> >
> > Initially I tested each bell individually - both ring when they're the only one on the circuit. I then wired the bells in series. No sound. I hadn't really expected them to as the 8 Volt transformer wouldn't have the oomph to drive 2 bells in series.
>
> >
> > I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
> >
> > When the house was rewired many years ago a cable (bog standard 2 core bell wire) was passed through the cavity / under floors from the under-the-stairs transformer adjacent to the breaker panel, to the front door bell push via an over the door bell (https://www.screwfix.com/p/byron-1200-wired-underdome-bell-brass/14337) providing a simple door bell setup.
> >
> > Mains
> > | |
> > ____|__|_____
> > | | ______
> > | Transformer |------------------------| |
> > | | | Bell |
> > | 8VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
> > |_____________|
> >
> > When I built my office I ran a cable from a second bell in the office back to the under-the-stairs panel. From past experience I knew i wouldn't be able to hear the existing bell when working.
> >
> > Initially I tested each bell individually - both ring when they're the only one on the circuit. I then wired the bells in series. No sound. I hadn't really expected them to as the 8 Volt transformer wouldn't have the oomph to drive 2 bells in series.
>
> I think you would normally have to wire them in parallel for it to work.
> Maybe if you shorted out the contact of the second bell it might work in
> series.
>
> --
> Max Demian
Thanks Max,
> Maybe if you shorted out the contact of the second bell it might work in
> series.
>
> --
> Max Demian
I'll give this a go.
PaulS
Oct 29, 2018, 10:39:22 AM10/29/18
to
On Saturday, 27 October 2018 17:40:52 UTC+1, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
> On Saturday, 27 October 2018 16:43:46 UTC+1, PaulS wrote:
> > My next thought was that it might be something to do with the way the bell
> > mechanisms work - making and breaking the circuit and that being out of
> > sync in such a way as to prevent either bell from working - so I modified
> > the circuit and added a 12VAC relay.
>
> With the relay, where is the additional bell getting its current from?
> > mechanisms work - making and breaking the circuit and that being out of
> > sync in such a way as to prevent either bell from working - so I modified
> > the circuit and added a 12VAC relay.
>
>
> Trembler bells wired in series will *not* work.
>
> The 'standard' way to run trembler bells in series is to short the interrupter contacts on the second bell(s). Thus both bells respond to the make-and-break generated by the first bell's interrupter.
> Trembler bells wired in series will *not* work.
>
>
> https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-349-02087-4_12
>
> You may need to add a snubber across the first bell's interrupter as it'll be handling a larger than intended inductive load.
>
> I prefer Friedland or Gent bells to Byron.
>
> Owain
Hi Owain,
I'm using the original 8 vac transformer to drive the second bell - at least I would if I'd got as far a getting the first bell and relay in series to work.
Thanks for the reference - I'll try shorting the trembler circuit. On the subject of the snubber - any recommendations re a value here?
PaulS
Oct 29, 2018, 10:40:26 AM10/29/18
to
On Saturday, 27 October 2018 18:11:48 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
> On 27/10/2018 16:43, PaulS wrote:
> > Hi Everyone,
> >
> > I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
> >
> <snipped>>
> On 27/10/2018 16:43, PaulS wrote:
> > Hi Everyone,
> >
> > I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
> >
> > I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
> >
>
> >
>
> By far the best fix that I have found is to use wireless bells for the
> extension(s). Whilst the instructions say that the "sender" should just
> be connected to the bell push, mine actually works fine connected across
> a bell push that is operating a traditional transformer / bell setup.
>
> Bells are either battery or plug into mains.
>
> extension(s). Whilst the instructions say that the "sender" should just
> be connected to the bell push, mine actually works fine connected across
> a bell push that is operating a traditional transformer / bell setup.
>
> Bells are either battery or plug into mains.
>
> Byron are probably the "gold standard" but there are cheap clones
> around. Some of the better ones have a choice of frequencies if you have
> lots of bells in the neighbourhood. Some of them have a surprisingly
> long range (obviously more chance of interference in that case).
Thanks for the input. I'm afraid wireless isn't an option for me though
> around. Some of the better ones have a choice of frequencies if you have
> lots of bells in the neighbourhood. Some of them have a surprisingly
> long range (obviously more chance of interference in that case).
PaulS
Oct 29, 2018, 10:41:08 AM10/29/18
to
On Saturday, 27 October 2018 20:13:20 UTC+1, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, 27 October 2018 17:40:52 UTC+1, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, 27 October 2018 16:43:46 UTC+1, PaulS wrote:
>
> > > My next thought was that it might be something to do with the way the bell
> > > mechanisms work - making and breaking the circuit and that being out of
> > > sync in such a way as to prevent either bell from working - so I modified
> > > the circuit and added a 12VAC relay.
> >
> > With the relay, where is the additional bell getting its current from?
> >
> > Trembler bells wired in series will *not* work.
> >
> > The 'standard' way to run trembler bells in series is to short the interrupter contacts on the second bell(s). Thus both bells respond to the make-and-break generated by the first bell's interrupter.
>
> Bingo. But realise that the 2 may tremble at different speeds, in which case you need to let the slower trembler run & short the faster. IIRC this is all covered in the wiki doorbell article.
> On Saturday, 27 October 2018 17:40:52 UTC+1, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, 27 October 2018 16:43:46 UTC+1, PaulS wrote:
>
> > > My next thought was that it might be something to do with the way the bell
> > > mechanisms work - making and breaking the circuit and that being out of
> > > sync in such a way as to prevent either bell from working - so I modified
> > > the circuit and added a 12VAC relay.
> >
> > With the relay, where is the additional bell getting its current from?
> >
> > Trembler bells wired in series will *not* work.
> >
> > The 'standard' way to run trembler bells in series is to short the interrupter contacts on the second bell(s). Thus both bells respond to the make-and-break generated by the first bell's interrupter.
>
>
>
> NT
Thanks for the input - I'll give it a go.
PaulS
Oct 29, 2018, 10:42:20 AM10/29/18
to
On Saturday, 27 October 2018 21:37:43 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
> by AC.
>
> SteveW
Hi Steve,
The bells are indeed running on AC and I'm using a 12 VAC relay.
> On 27/10/2018 17:20, Brian-Gaff wrote:
> > Are these AC bells or DC bells, from what you say of using a relay, one
> > supposes dC are they chimes or actual mechanical bells? Personally in any
> > bell I'd wire them in parallel and get a transformer rated for a higher load
> > and that should work.
> > Brian
>
> > Are these AC bells or DC bells, from what you say of using a relay, one
> > supposes dC are they chimes or actual mechanical bells? Personally in any
> > bell I'd wire them in parallel and get a transformer rated for a higher load
> > and that should work.
> > Brian
>
> Bells powered from transformers are usually AC (but most would work fine
> on DC). There are plenty of relays designed to have their coils operated
> by AC.
>
> SteveW
Hi Steve,
The bells are indeed running on AC and I'm using a 12 VAC relay.
Fredxx
Oct 29, 2018, 10:42:46 AM10/29/18
to
The switch is simply a confusion.
PaulS
Oct 29, 2018, 10:49:32 AM10/29/18
to
On Saturday, 27 October 2018 21:40:21 UTC+1, Terry Casey wrote:
> In article <596aaf11-afcc-4e1f-a45b-
> 8b92c6...@googlegroups.com>...
> this?
>
> Mains
> | |
> ____|__|_____
> | | Joint ______
> | Transformer |------------x-----------| |
> | | | Bell |
> | 16-24VAC |---------| |---------|______|
> |_____________| | |
> | |
> |-/--|
> Switch
>
>
> If so, your only chance is, as others have already said, to
> short out the interrupter in one of the bells.
>
> If that doesn't work first time - you might have to adjust the
> gong/clapper arrangement in the slave bell, try it the other
> way round so thst the master becomes the slave and vice-versa.
>
> Idea!
>
> If that doesn't work, try this:
>
> you will need a transformer, a silcon diode, an electrolytic
> capacitor, a relay and a battery.
>
> Connect the transformer seciondary in series with the output
> of the transformer. One side of the primary should be
> connected to the end of the diode which doesn't have a stripe
> or coloured band and the other end of the diode to the
> positive side of the electrolytic. The negative is then
> connecyed to the other side of the primary.
>
> Now connect the relay coil across the electrolytic. Press the
> bell and ensure that, when the relay operates, the contacts
> remain closed until the bell is stopped. If the contacts open
> and close in time with the bell, you'll need a larger
> capacitor.
>
> Connect the slave bell and the battery in series with the
> relay contacts. The slave should now ring at the same time as
> the master.
>
> Like this:
>
> ________ D ______
> | |----->|----|----| |
> | TR | |+ | Bell |
> | | C --- |______|
> | | --- ___|___
> |________|---| | | |
> | | | | | Batt |
> |______| --------|----|______|
> | |
> | | | Relay|
I'm going to to have ago with the shorting of the trembler solution (I'm a great believer in KISS).
Interesting circuit for the alternative. My main problem with that one is that, although the relay operates when the switch is operated, the bell in series with the relay coil doesn't
> In article <596aaf11-afcc-4e1f-a45b-
> 8b92c6...@googlegroups.com>...
> >
> > - I only have access to the wires where they terminate near
> > the transformer. This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells
> > in parallel.
>
> So, just to clarify, your original wiring actually looks like
> > - I only have access to the wires where they terminate near
> > the transformer. This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells
> > in parallel.
>
> this?
>
> Mains
> | |
> ____|__|_____
> | | Joint ______
> | Transformer |------------x-----------| |
> | | | Bell |
> | 16-24VAC |---------| |---------|______|
> |_____________| | |
> | |
> |-/--|
> Switch
>
>
> If so, your only chance is, as others have already said, to
> short out the interrupter in one of the bells.
>
> If that doesn't work first time - you might have to adjust the
> gong/clapper arrangement in the slave bell, try it the other
> way round so thst the master becomes the slave and vice-versa.
>
> Idea!
>
> If that doesn't work, try this:
>
> you will need a transformer, a silcon diode, an electrolytic
> capacitor, a relay and a battery.
>
> Connect the transformer seciondary in series with the output
> of the transformer. One side of the primary should be
> connected to the end of the diode which doesn't have a stripe
> or coloured band and the other end of the diode to the
> positive side of the electrolytic. The negative is then
> connecyed to the other side of the primary.
>
> Now connect the relay coil across the electrolytic. Press the
> bell and ensure that, when the relay operates, the contacts
> remain closed until the bell is stopped. If the contacts open
> and close in time with the bell, you'll need a larger
> capacitor.
>
> Connect the slave bell and the battery in series with the
> relay contacts. The slave should now ring at the same time as
> the master.
>
> Like this:
>
> ________ D ______
> | |----->|----|----| |
> | TR | |+ | Bell |
> | | C --- |______|
> | | --- ___|___
> |________|---| | | |
> | | | | | Batt |
> |______| --------|----|______|
> | |
> | | | Relay|
> ____|__|_____ |______|
> | | | | ______
> | Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
> | | | Bell |
> | 16-24VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
> |_____________|
Hi Terry,
> | | | | ______
> | Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
> | | | Bell |
> | 16-24VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
> |_____________|
I'm going to to have ago with the shorting of the trembler solution (I'm a great believer in KISS).
Interesting circuit for the alternative. My main problem with that one is that, although the relay operates when the switch is operated, the bell in series with the relay coil doesn't
PaulS
Oct 29, 2018, 10:54:07 AM10/29/18
to
On Saturday, 27 October 2018 22:41:33 UTC+1, Brian Gaff wrote:
> If the bells will work on DC how about putting a large current diode in anti
> phase so to speak across each bell, then one half cycle will run one bell
> and the other half cycle the other bell.
> Brian
> If the bells will work on DC how about putting a large current diode in anti
> phase so to speak across each bell, then one half cycle will run one bell
> and the other half cycle the other bell.
>
> --
> ----- --
> This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
> The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
>
> Blind user, so no pictures please
> Note this Signature is meaningless.!
> wrote in message
> news:gd49td1re71rcek5a...@4ax.com...
> > On Sat, 27 Oct 2018 08:43:44 -0700 (PDT), PaulS
> > wrote:
> >
> >>Hi Everyone,
> >>
> >>I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
> >>
> >
> >>Hi Everyone,
> >>
> >>I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
> >>
> >>When the house was rewired many years ago a cable (bog standard 2 core
> >>bell wire) was passed through the cavity / under floors from the
> >>under-the-stairs transformer adjacent to the breaker panel, to the front
> >>door bell push via an over the door bell
> >>(https://www.screwfix.com/p/byron-1200-wired-underdome-bell-brass/14337)
> >>providing a simple door bell setup.
> >>
> >> Mains
> >> | |
> >> ____|__|_____
> >>| | ______
> >>| Transformer |------------------------| |
> >>| | | Bell |
> >>| 8VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
> >>|_____________|
> >>
> >>When I built my office I ran a cable from a second bell in the office back
> >>to the under-the-stairs panel. From past experience I knew i wouldn't be
> >>able to hear the existing bell when working.
> >>
> >>Initially I tested each bell individually - both ring when they're the
> >>only one on the circuit. I then wired the bells in series. No sound. I
> >>hadn't really expected them to as the 8 Volt transformer wouldn't have the
> >>oomph to drive 2 bells in series.
> >>
> >> ______
> >>bell wire) was passed through the cavity / under floors from the
> >>under-the-stairs transformer adjacent to the breaker panel, to the front
> >>door bell push via an over the door bell
> >>(https://www.screwfix.com/p/byron-1200-wired-underdome-bell-brass/14337)
> >>providing a simple door bell setup.
> >>
> >> Mains
> >> | |
> >> ____|__|_____
> >>| | ______
> >>| Transformer |------------------------| |
> >>| | | Bell |
> >>| 8VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
> >>|_____________|
> >>
> >>When I built my office I ran a cable from a second bell in the office back
> >>to the under-the-stairs panel. From past experience I knew i wouldn't be
> >>able to hear the existing bell when working.
> >>
> >>Initially I tested each bell individually - both ring when they're the
> >>only one on the circuit. I then wired the bells in series. No sound. I
> >>hadn't really expected them to as the 8 Volt transformer wouldn't have the
> >>oomph to drive 2 bells in series.
> >>
> >> Mains | |
> >> | | | Bell |
> >> ____|__|_____ |______|
> >>| | | | ______
> >>| Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
> >>| | | Bell |
> >>| | | | ______
> >>| Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
> >>| | | Bell |
> >>| 8VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
> >>|_____________|
> >>
> >>I replaced the 8 Volt transformer with a transformer tapped at 8, 16 and
> >>24 and tried again. Still no go.
> >>
> >> ______
> >> Mains | |
> >> | | | Bell |
> >>|_____________|
> >>
> >>I replaced the 8 Volt transformer with a transformer tapped at 8, 16 and
> >>24 and tried again. Still no go.
> >>
> >> ______
> >> Mains | |
> >> | | | Bell |
> >> ____|__|_____ |______|
> >>| | | | ______
> >>| Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
> >>| | | Bell |
> >>| 16-24VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
> >>|_____________|
> >>
> >>| | | | ______
> >>| Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
> >>| | | Bell |
> >>| 16-24VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
> >>|_____________|
> >>
> >>The bells are similar and when poked with my multimeter I can see what
> >>appears to be an adequate voltage across the terminals (testing from where
> >>the wires terminate near the transformer).
> >>
> >>appears to be an adequate voltage across the terminals (testing from where
> >>the wires terminate near the transformer).
> >>
> >>My next thought was that it might be something to do with the way the bell
> >>mechanisms work - making and breaking the circuit and that being out of
> >>sync in such a way as to prevent either bell from working - so I modified
> >>the circuit and added a 12VAC relay.
> >>
> >>mechanisms work - making and breaking the circuit and that being out of
> >>sync in such a way as to prevent either bell from working - so I modified
> >>the circuit and added a 12VAC relay.
> >>
> >> ______ ______
> >> Mains | |------------| |
> >> | | | Relay| | Bell |
> >> ____|__|_____ |______|------------|______|
> >> Mains | |------------| |
> >> | | | Relay| | Bell |
> >>| | | | ______
> >>| Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
> >>| | | Bell |
> >>| 16-24VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
> >>|_____________|
> >>
> >>| Transformer |-----| |-------------| |
> >>| | | Bell |
> >>| 16-24VAC |---------Switch---------|______|
> >>|_____________|
> >>
> >>When the bell push is pressed, the relay operates, but the bell in series
> >>with it doesn't. Frustrating!
> >>
> >>Somewhere in the dim recesses of my memory I can recall adding a capacitor
> >>in parallel to an inductive load (such as the bell or the relay) might be
> >>of some use in such situations. But what type of capacitor and what value?
> >>Anyone?
> >>
> >>Could anyone explain precisely why the original 2 bells in series with
> >>what appears to be adequate voltage and the bell and relay in series don't
> >>with it doesn't. Frustrating!
> >>
> >>Somewhere in the dim recesses of my memory I can recall adding a capacitor
> >>in parallel to an inductive load (such as the bell or the relay) might be
> >>of some use in such situations. But what type of capacitor and what value?
> >>Anyone?
> >>
> >>Could anyone explain precisely why the original 2 bells in series with
> >>work?
> >>
> >>Any other novel solutions I might use given that:
> >>- There is only one 2 core wire in place to the front door where the first
> >>bell and switch (bell push) are and no option of adding another.
> >>- There is only one 2 core wire to the second bell.
> >>Any other novel solutions I might use given that:
> >>- There is only one 2 core wire in place to the front door where the first
> >>bell and switch (bell push) are and no option of adding another.
> >>- There is only one 2 core wire to the second bell.
> >>- I only have access to the wires where they terminate near the
> >>transformer. This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells in parallel.
> >>transformer. This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells in parallel.
> >>- Wireless is not an option. I need a fix and forget set-up with no
> >>batteries.
> >>
> >>Long read I know, so thanks for reading.
> >>
> >>I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
> >
> > As others have said, wire the bells in parallel. If it takes 8 volts
> >>batteries.
> >>
> >>Long read I know, so thanks for reading.
> >>
> >>I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
> >
> > to activate a bell and you wire two in series, you're only going to
> > get 4 volts across each bell, so neither will work, although I would
> > have expected them to work from the bigger transformer, assuming that
> > you've tapped off at 16v and the transformer could supply the
> > necessary current. When you tested the volts on that bigger
> > transformer, did you have the bell-push pressed? I suspect not, and if
> > you had done, you might have found the voltage dropped significantly.
> >
> > But even if you do wire the bells in parallel, the original
> > transformer still might not have enough oomph to activate both bells.
> > Do the bells say what current they take, and does your original
> > transformer say what it can supply?
> >
> > --
> >
> > Chris
Hmmm. Interesting Brian. I'll try the simple solutions first and see if I need to try this one.
PaulS
Oct 29, 2018, 10:59:10 AM10/29/18
to
> Johnny B Good
From what I've been able to measure the bells are similar. I'll try some of the other simple solutions first before I start trying to tune things.
PaulS
Oct 29, 2018, 11:00:52 AM10/29/18
to
On Sunday, 28 October 2018 08:35:21 UTC, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 27/10/18 18:11, newshound wrote:
> batteries. It was replaced by a Friedland with one mains bell and one
> battery bell. The latter hasn't needed new batteries in over 2 years.
>
> --
>
> Jeff
Can't use wireless? The boss won't have it (and the house structure makes any sort of wireless problematic).
> On 27/10/18 18:11, newshound wrote:
> > On 27/10/2018 16:43, PaulS wrote:
> >> Hi Everyone,
> >>
> >> I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
> >>
> > <snipped>>
> >> Hi Everyone,
> >>
> >> I have a frustrating door bell extension situation.
> >>
> >> I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
> >>
> >
> >>
> >
> > By far the best fix that I have found is to use wireless bells for the
> > extension(s). Whilst the instructions say that the "sender" should just
> > be connected to the bell push, mine actually works fine connected across
> > a bell push that is operating a traditional transformer / bell setup.
> >
> > Bells are either battery or plug into mains.
>
> I wonder why the OP won't/can't use a wireless bell?
> > extension(s). Whilst the instructions say that the "sender" should just
> > be connected to the bell push, mine actually works fine connected across
> > a bell push that is operating a traditional transformer / bell setup.
> >
> > Bells are either battery or plug into mains.
>
>
> > Byron are probably the "gold standard" but there are cheap clones
> > around. Some of the better ones have a choice of frequencies if you have
> > lots of bells in the neighbourhood. Some of them have a surprisingly
> > long range (obviously more chance of interference in that case).
>
> We had a cheap wireless doorbell and it was junk - the bell ate AA
> > Byron are probably the "gold standard" but there are cheap clones
> > around. Some of the better ones have a choice of frequencies if you have
> > lots of bells in the neighbourhood. Some of them have a surprisingly
> > long range (obviously more chance of interference in that case).
>
> batteries. It was replaced by a Friedland with one mains bell and one
> battery bell. The latter hasn't needed new batteries in over 2 years.
>
> --
>
> Jeff
Can't use wireless? The boss won't have it (and the house structure makes any sort of wireless problematic).
PaulS
Oct 29, 2018, 11:04:33 AM10/29/18
to
On Sunday, 28 October 2018 09:48:32 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
> draw a surprisingly high pulse of current and the original transformer
> may not be man enough to deliver enough current for two of them.
>
> I have a loud piezo-electric self contained beeper as my office repeater
> which presents a minimal load to the original circuit.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Martin Brown
Piezo -I may just try this if some of the other solutions based on the current kit don't work. The office repeater is fairly inaccessible (ladders are involved) so If I can avoid precarious fiddling I will.
> On 27/10/2018 17:05, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
> > PaulS presented the following explanation :
> > PaulS presented the following explanation :
> >> Any other novel solutions I might use given that:
> >> - There is only one 2 core wire in place to the front door where the
> >> first bell and switch (bell push) are and no option of adding another.
> >> - There is only one 2 core wire to the second bell.
> >> - I only have access to the wires where they terminate near the
> >> transformer. This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells in parallel.
> >> - Wireless is not an option. I need a fix and forget set-up with no
> >> batteries.
> >>
> >> Long read I know, so thanks for reading.
> >>
> >> - There is only one 2 core wire in place to the front door where the
> >> first bell and switch (bell push) are and no option of adding another.
> >> - There is only one 2 core wire to the second bell.
> >> - I only have access to the wires where they terminate near the
> >> transformer. This in effect means I CAN'T wire the bells in parallel.
> >> - Wireless is not an option. I need a fix and forget set-up with no
> >> batteries.
> >>
> >> Long read I know, so thanks for reading.
> >>
> >> I'd welcome some words of wisdom / experience of similar situations.
> >
> >
> > The two bells need to be wired in parallel with each other and supplied
> > with their correct working voltage.
>
> And sufficient current to work too. Solenoid based ding-dong bells can
> > with their correct working voltage.
>
> draw a surprisingly high pulse of current and the original transformer
> may not be man enough to deliver enough current for two of them.
>
> I have a loud piezo-electric self contained beeper as my office repeater
> which presents a minimal load to the original circuit.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Martin Brown
Piezo -I may just try this if some of the other solutions based on the current kit don't work. The office repeater is fairly inaccessible (ladders are involved) so If I can avoid precarious fiddling I will.
PaulS
Oct 29, 2018, 11:13:56 AM10/29/18
to
Both bells work individually with the intended final cables. Solar is a nice thought, but the boss doesn't like things like solar panels mounted on the front of the house (and it would still require a small amount of maintenance). The same goes for a second button. The boss won't have it.
Thanks for the warning re earthing. All the transformers I've been using are double insulated.
PaulS
Oct 29, 2018, 11:20:11 AM10/29/18
to
On Monday, 29 October 2018 00:18:32 UTC, Dave W wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Oct 2018 08:43:44 -0700 (PDT), PaulS
The second bell gets its power from a separate (the original) transformer (not shown - my bad). I'll try some of the simple solutions first and if they son't work I'll give yours a go.
PaulS
Oct 29, 2018, 11:27:05 AM10/29/18
to
I can't do as you suggest. There is only one 2 core cable in place with the transformer at one end and the bell and switch at the other end.
Tim+
Oct 29, 2018, 11:30:27 AM10/29/18
to
that *will* work in series?
Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
tabb...@gmail.com
Oct 29, 2018, 12:11:22 PM10/29/18
to
On Monday, 29 October 2018 14:39:22 UTC, PaulS wrote:
> On Saturday, 27 October 2018 17:40:52 UTC+1, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, 27 October 2018 16:43:46 UTC+1, PaulS wrote:
> > > My next thought was that it might be something to do with the way the bell
> > > mechanisms work - making and breaking the circuit and that being out of
> > > sync in such a way as to prevent either bell from working - so I modified
> > > the circuit and added a 12VAC relay.
> >
> > With the relay, where is the additional bell getting its current from?
> >
> > Trembler bells wired in series will *not* work.
> >
> > The 'standard' way to run trembler bells in series is to short the interrupter contacts on the second bell(s). Thus both bells respond to the make-and-break generated by the first bell's interrupter.
> >
> > https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-349-02087-4_12
> >
> > You may need to add a snubber across the first bell's interrupter as it'll be handling a larger than intended inductive load.
> >
> > I prefer Friedland or Gent bells to Byron.
> >
> > Owain
>
> Hi Owain,
>
> I'm using the original 8 vac transformer to drive the second bell - at least I would if I'd got as far a getting the first bell and relay in series to work.
I don't know if you mean the relay coil in series with bell 1 - if so you'd need to rewind the relay coil with much thicker wire for that to work.
> On Saturday, 27 October 2018 17:40:52 UTC+1, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, 27 October 2018 16:43:46 UTC+1, PaulS wrote:
> > > My next thought was that it might be something to do with the way the bell
> > > mechanisms work - making and breaking the circuit and that being out of
> > > sync in such a way as to prevent either bell from working - so I modified
> > > the circuit and added a 12VAC relay.
> >
> > With the relay, where is the additional bell getting its current from?
> >
> > Trembler bells wired in series will *not* work.
> >
> > The 'standard' way to run trembler bells in series is to short the interrupter contacts on the second bell(s). Thus both bells respond to the make-and-break generated by the first bell's interrupter.
> >
> > https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-349-02087-4_12
> >
> > You may need to add a snubber across the first bell's interrupter as it'll be handling a larger than intended inductive load.
> >
> > I prefer Friedland or Gent bells to Byron.
> >
> > Owain
>
> Hi Owain,
>
> I'm using the original 8 vac transformer to drive the second bell - at least I would if I'd got as far a getting the first bell and relay in series to work.
> Thanks for the reference - I'll try shorting the trembler circuit. On the subject of the snubber - any recommendations re a value here?
Anyway, you've already had explained the standard solution.
NT
tabb...@gmail.com
Oct 29, 2018, 12:16:16 PM10/29/18
to
On Monday, 29 October 2018 15:13:56 UTC, PaulS wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> Both bells work individually with the intended final cables. Solar is a nice thought, but the boss doesn't like things like solar panels mounted on the front of the house (and it would still require a small amount of maintenance). The same goes for a second button. The boss won't have it.
>
> Thanks for the warning re earthing. All the transformers I've been using are double insulated.
solar just buys you unreliability
> Hi John,
>
> Both bells work individually with the intended final cables. Solar is a nice thought, but the boss doesn't like things like solar panels mounted on the front of the house (and it would still require a small amount of maintenance). The same goes for a second button. The boss won't have it.
>
> Thanks for the warning re earthing. All the transformers I've been using are double insulated.
You don't need an earth, bell transformers are double insulted.
NT
tabb...@gmail.com
Oct 29, 2018, 12:17:16 PM10/29/18
to
Dave Plowman (News)
Oct 29, 2018, 12:53:45 PM10/29/18
to
In article <d7e4c2e7-284d-425e...@googlegroups.com>,
experiment with a shunt resistor across the relay coil as it will take a
great deal less current than the bell. Should be possible to get both
working perfectly.
However, two matched AC bells with a suitable transformer should work OK
in series.
--
*We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
PaulS <pa...@lightspeed.co.uk> wrote:
> I can't do as you suggest. There is only one 2 core cable in place with
> the transformer at one end and the bell and switch at the other end.
If wiring a relay in series with the bell, you'll likely have to
> I can't do as you suggest. There is only one 2 core cable in place with
> the transformer at one end and the bell and switch at the other end.
experiment with a shunt resistor across the relay coil as it will take a
great deal less current than the bell. Should be possible to get both
working perfectly.
However, two matched AC bells with a suitable transformer should work OK
in series.
--
*We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Fredxx
Oct 29, 2018, 1:14:26 PM10/29/18
to
On 29/10/2018 16:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <d7e4c2e7-284d-425e...@googlegroups.com>,
> PaulS <pa...@lightspeed.co.uk> wrote:
>> I can't do as you suggest. There is only one 2 core cable in place with
>> the transformer at one end and the bell and switch at the other end.
>
> If wiring a relay in series with the bell, you'll likely have to
> experiment with a shunt resistor across the relay coil as it will take a
> great deal less current than the bell. Should be possible to get both
> working perfectly.
I'm not so confident. In fact I don't see much difference between
> In article <d7e4c2e7-284d-425e...@googlegroups.com>,
> PaulS <pa...@lightspeed.co.uk> wrote:
>> I can't do as you suggest. There is only one 2 core cable in place with
>> the transformer at one end and the bell and switch at the other end.
>
> If wiring a relay in series with the bell, you'll likely have to
> experiment with a shunt resistor across the relay coil as it will take a
> great deal less current than the bell. Should be possible to get both
> working perfectly.
putting the bells in series, especially if the existing one is marginal.
If the OP can get a low voltage, low current relay then that might work
if he also uses back to back diodes to ensure most of the voltage still
appears across the existing bell.
> However, two matched AC bells with a suitable transformer should work OK
> in series.
wouldn't like to guarantee.
Dave W
Oct 29, 2018, 5:45:32 PM10/29/18
to
On Sun, 28 Oct 2018 19:50:07 -0700 (PDT), tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
>On Monday, 29 October 2018 00:18:32 UTC, Dave W wrote:
<snip>>
>On Monday, 29 October 2018 00:18:32 UTC, Dave W wrote:
>>
>> I would try adding two diode rectifiers to the transformer, charging
>> two electrolytic capacitors. A capacitor would also be needed across
>> at least one bell to make it independent of the other one's
>> interruptions. Each diode would peak rectify the 8VAC to give about
>> 20V across the two bells in series. 1000uF might do for the
>> capacitors.
>>
>> Mains
>> __|__|__
>> | | diode ______
>> | |--o-|>|-o---o---| 2nd |
>> | | | |+ |+ | Bell |
>> | | | cap = = |______|
>> | 8VAC | | | | |
>> | | | | o------o
>> | |--|-----o |
>> | | | | |
>> |________| | |+ | ______
>> | cap = o-----------------| Door |
>> | | | Bell |
>> o-|<|-o------------Switch---|______|
>> diode
>>
>> Or you could use your 16V transformer feeding a bridge rectifier
>> instead of the diodes and two capacitors above.
>
>It's a gamble to assume the 2 bells will run happily on the same current. They may do.
>> I would try adding two diode rectifiers to the transformer, charging
>> two electrolytic capacitors. A capacitor would also be needed across
>> at least one bell to make it independent of the other one's
>> interruptions. Each diode would peak rectify the 8VAC to give about
>> 20V across the two bells in series. 1000uF might do for the
>> capacitors.
>>
>> Mains
>> __|__|__
>> | | diode ______
>> | |--o-|>|-o---o---| 2nd |
>> | | | |+ |+ | Bell |
>> | | | cap = = |______|
>> | 8VAC | | | | |
>> | | | | o------o
>> | |--|-----o |
>> | | | | |
>> |________| | |+ | ______
>> | cap = o-----------------| Door |
>> | | | Bell |
>> o-|<|-o------------Switch---|______|
>> diode
>>
>> Or you could use your 16V transformer feeding a bridge rectifier
>> instead of the diodes and two capacitors above.
>
>
>If bell is reluctant to start, rectifier & nice big capacitor gives it a kick to get it going. Your circuit will do that for the 1st bell. I'm not clear why one bell has a cap across it, one doesn't.
>
>
>NT
It's true the bells might take different current, but one of the posts
said they were similar bells. I would have suggested both bells have
an added capacitor, but assumed it would be difficult to add one to
the door bell. Putting a capacitor across the 2nd bell means it always
gets DC even in the instants when the door bell is non-conducting, and
the door bell gets DC but it doesn't matter if it takes intermittent
current.
As you say, the door bell will get a big kick because the capacitor on
the 2nd bell won't be initially charged. The 2nd bell won't sound
until the charge has built up.
The 8V transformer is rated at 1A, but I can't find any info on the
current the bell takes.
--
Dave W
PaulS
Oct 30, 2018, 5:13:57 AM10/30/18
to
On Monday, 29 October 2018 15:30:27 UTC, Tim+ wrote:
Dave W
Oct 30, 2018, 11:34:53 AM10/30/18
to
On Sun, 28 Oct 2018 19:50:07 -0700 (PDT), tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
<snip>
>
>It's a gamble to assume the 2 bells will run happily on the same current. They may do.
>
>If bell is reluctant to start, rectifier & nice big capacitor gives it a kick to get it going. Your circuit will do that for the 1st bell. I'm not clear why one bell has a cap across it, one doesn't.
>
>It's a gamble to assume the 2 bells will run happily on the same current. They may do.
>
>If bell is reluctant to start, rectifier & nice big capacitor gives it a kick to get it going. Your circuit will do that for the 1st bell. I'm not clear why one bell has a cap across it, one doesn't.
>
tabb...@gmail.com
Oct 30, 2018, 1:40:44 PM10/30/18
to
On Tuesday, 30 October 2018 15:34:53 UTC, Dave W wrote:
It might work. Maybe.
NT
NT
Terry Casey
Oct 30, 2018, 2:06:49 PM10/30/18
to
In article <g3lnbf...@mid.individual.net>,
use...@andyburns.uk says...
>
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> > Terry Casey wrote:
> >
> >> tabb...@gmail.com says...
> >>
> >>> Terry Casey wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I can see no reason it shoulsn't work ...
> >>>
> >>> I can.
> >>
> >> Would you care to elucidate?
> >
> > half power
>
> under half with diode drop.
But the OP is replacing the original transformer anyway, so he
can ensute thathe replacement is suitably rated.
use...@andyburns.uk says...
>
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> > Terry Casey wrote:
> >
> >> tabb...@gmail.com says...
> >>
> >>> Terry Casey wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I can see no reason it shoulsn't work ...
> >>>
> >>> I can.
> >>
> >> Would you care to elucidate?
> >
> > half power
>
> under half with diode drop.
But the OP is replacing the original transformer anyway, so he
can ensute thathe replacement is suitably rated.
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