How loud is 43Db
Dee
slightly daft question but our kitchen is open plan and noisy appliances are
not welcome.
I obviously do not own a decibel meter (I am sure they are not called that).
So could anyone offer a comparison.
Thanks
AndyP
Christian McArdle
43dB is quite a reduction from 52dB and well worth having. It is the
difference between the figures that is important, not their ratios.
Christian.
Bob Mannix
"Dee" <ra...@NOMAIL.COM> wrote in message news:bmec5p$1mq0$1...@news.icl.se...
A quick Google search would have removed the need for the question (!) and
found:
Decibel ratings and common sounds
Decibel
Level
Example
0
Lowest sound audible to human ear
10
Quiet library, soft whisper
30
Quiet office, living room, bedroom away from traffic
40
Light traffic at a distance, refrigerator, gentle breeze
50
Air conditioner at 20 feet, conversation, sewing machine
60
Busy traffic, office tabulator, noisy restaurant
80
Subway, heavy city traffic, alarm clock at 2 feet, factory noise
100
Truck traffic, noisy home appliances, shop tools, lawnmower
110
Chain saw, boiler shop, pneumatic drill
120
Rock concert in front of speakers, sandblasting, thunderclap
140
Gunshot blast, jet plane
180
Rocket launching pad
--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)
Dee
noticeable. My quandary is whether or not 52db would be invasive in an open
plan kitchen/dining area, but this could be subjective anyway.
Appliance in question is a dishwasher (we do not have one currently). The
comparison is between an AEG (43db) and a Bosch (52db). I have no data on
our existing Hotpoint washing machine to see what noise rating that has.
AndyP
"Christian McArdle" <cmcar...@nospam.yahooxxxx.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3f8ab6d9$0$245$ed9e...@reading.news.pipex.net...
Andy Hall
It's almost 10 times quieter. However, the figures, and the
behaviour of the ear are logarithmic (approximately).
The difference between the figures is important, as is the method of
measurement and the distance. Unless these are the same, you can't
compare the figures.
Assuming that the conditions are the same, then if noise is a concern,
this is a difference worth having.
.andy
To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
Dee
and spec of kitchen appliances search as you have never crossed my mind.
Thanks.
AndyP
Christian McArdle
>noticeable.
It isn't a 20% reduction. The different between 52 and 43 is the same as the
difference between 10 and 1. It is even the same as reducing 5 to -4. It is
reducing the power of the noise by a factor of 8. Ears have an amazing
dynamic range, so it won't actually be perceived as an 8 times reduction. I
would guess it will sound about half as loud.
Christian.
Dave Plowman
Dee <ra...@NOMAIL.COM> wrote:
> How loud is 43Db when compared with 52Db. Sorry to ask what seems to me
> as a slightly daft question but our kitchen is open plan and noisy
> appliances are not welcome.
If you give the average person a volume control and get them to set it to
half the level, and then measure it, it will be about 10 dB, so the
difference between 43 and 52 is, in practice, a great deal.
--
*Born free - taxed to death *
Dave Plowman dave....@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
Andy Dingley
>How loud is 43Db when compared with 52Db
9dB difference. 3dB is a doubling, which is also roughly the smallest
level that you'll notice. So this is about "3 subjective notches"
louder.
43 dB is a "typical room" sort of level. 52dB is "outdoors on a city
street".
(Yes, and I _know_ that dB aren't an absolute measure)
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
froggers
replaced - this was also a Bosch
but 20 years older (never went wrong) and we gave to a friend 30 months ago, who still
runs it twice a day in a B and B !!
(its well shagged though now !)
46dB is quiet enough to have a normal conversation 4 feet away in a quiet room and only
notice its on when someone
points out it is on - not even obtrusive - it was selected for its quietness as its in
the kitchen / diner where the family
seem to spend most of their time !!
Hope that helps...
Nick
The Natural Philosopher
Oh. Its 9 dB quieter. Thats quite a bit quieter.
:-)
> Thanks
>
> AndyP
>
>
>
>
>
The Natural Philosopher
> Christian, thanks. It is a 20% reduction
Not in any known engineering quintity it ain't. Its actually about ten
times less noisy.
The Natural Philosopher
> On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:15:59 +0100, "Dee" <ra...@NOMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
>
>>How loud is 43Db when compared with 52Db
>>
>
> 9dB difference. 3dB is a doubling, which is also roughly the smallest
> level that you'll notice. So this is about "3 subjective notches"
> louder.
One decibel is DEFINED as teh smallest difference in sound you can hear
volume wise. Or was, Then they took the results of teh tests and
expressed it in energy per squarte foot or something.
> 43 dB is a "typical room" sort of level. 52dB is "outdoors on a city
> street".
Nah, thats more lke 85dB
43dB is quite. 52dB is quiet converstaion when you don't want to be
overheard.
PoP
<din...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
>43 dB is a "typical room" sort of level. 52dB is "outdoors on a city
>street".
The following web page provides dB(A) ratings for a personal computer,
though I'm not sure (okay, okay, I don't know) what the "A"
represents:
http://www.quietpc.com/uk/cpucooling.php
Above 35dB(A) is, in PC terms, loud.
Less than 25dB(A) is extremely quiet.
I can vouch for these figures having fitting a couple of ultraquiet
fans to my PCs.
PoP
Wdyw
is not as receptive at some frequencies as at others. The dBA values take this
into account. There are also other db variations.
Pressure ...power ..intensity....
50 dBA is low and 40ish extremely low!
Witchy
<not.fr...@nospam.ntlworld.com> wrote:
>46dB is quiet enough to have a normal conversation 4 feet away in a quiet room and only
>notice its on when someone
>points out it is on - not even obtrusive - it was selected for its quietness as its in
We got the model below that one - 51db - and most of the time you
don't really know it's on, and the kitchen is the quietest room in the
house in relation to traffic and other noise. We get more noise in the
front room from someone passing in the street :)
That's *passing* for any of you that might think summat else :oD
cheers
witchy/binarydinosaurs
John Armstrong
> The following web page provides dB(A) ratings for a personal computer,
> though I'm not sure (okay, okay, I don't know) what the "A"
> represents:
I think dB(A) has the scale adjusted so it more closely matches typical
human hearing.
Kearton
different make. We have a Bosch and it's VERY noisy. Even Which magazine
points that out even though they recommend it.
"Dee" <ra...@NOMAIL.COM> wrote in message news:bmedc5$1nea$1...@news.icl.se...
Andy Dingley
wrote:
>One decibel is DEFINED as teh smallest difference in sound you can hear
>volume wise.
No it isn't. And you can hear much less than this, if you're trying
to listen for "which tone is louder" experiments.
I'm not even going to start posting the definition of the Bel. UFGFFS.
>> 43 dB is a "typical room" sort of level. 52dB is "outdoors on a city
>> street".
>
>Nah, thats more lke 85dB
"city street with no heavy traffic" I live out in the sticks.
CRB
As a very rough rule of thumb (with all sorts of caveats), 10 db
equates to a perceived difference of 2:1, thus 10dB greater will sound
twice as loud, and 10dB lower will sound half as loud. Similarly, a
3dB change will be detectable if switched quickly from one level to
the other, but not detectable in a longer-term comparison test (using
a chi-squared test for example). Bear in mind that the response of
the ear is quasi-logarithmic, rather than linear.
CRB
Keith Wootten
writes
<snipped>
>One decibel is DEFINED as teh smallest difference in sound you can hear
>volume wise.
1dB is reckoned to be about the smallest difference you can detect
listening to a pure tone; 3dB is about the smallest difference for
'normal' sounds.
All other things being equal, 43dB will sound noticeably quieter than
52dB.
Cheers
--
Keith Wootten
stefe...@hp.com
>
> I'm not even going to start posting the definition of the Bel. UFGFFS.
>
Word 1 starts with a U. I think it's Use.
Word 3 starts with a G. As we're talking of searching for info, it must
be Google.
Word 4 starts with a Fuh. Like Ferry, as in Gerry and his Pacemakers. But
here I think it's another 3-letter job; specifically, "for".
Word 6 then pops out as the four-letter word "sake".
Words 2 (or at least its unparticipled root) and 5 are spelt out with a
single transposition error on T-shirts bought overpriced (or knockoffs
at market stalls) by wannabe rebelious yoof. Yeah, go on, rebel: be
just like all the other induhviduals making a personal fashion statement
against global capatalism by buying up the image of a global brand...
Hey, Andy, can I have that job at GCHQ now? ;-)
mike ring
> Bob, thanks for that. I have been googling all afternoon comparing prices
> and spec of kitchen appliances search as you have never crossed my mind.
> Thanks.
>
Don't worry about it, if everybody was a google expert the ng would have to
shut up shop, unless we could find a few wannabe trolls to have some fun
with - and I wouldn't have seen that handy list - I'll make a point to use
earplugs on a rocket lauching pad next time
mike r
Andy Dingley
>In uk.d-i-y, Andy Dingley <din...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'm not even going to start posting the definition of the Bel. UFGFFS.
OMG. I start jabbering about subjective decibels, and of course
someone from The Big Shed pops up, where they actually know this
stuff.
>Hey, Andy, can I have that job at GCHQ now? ;-)
Get me my job at HP back and I'll see about hollowing out your very
own volcano
PoP
<din...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
>Get me my job at HP back
You probably wouldn't want to go back. HP has changed enormously in
recent years since Carlie took over, but it was changing before that
under Lew Platt.
PoP
stefe...@hp.com
>
> You probably wouldn't want to go back. HP has changed enormously in
> recent years since Carlie took over, but it was changing before that
> under Lew Platt.
>
not to be confused with the far superior Myles na Gopaleen version. But
- uncharacteristically - I digress). HP, like the Metropolitan Police*, is
a large organisation whose character varies enourmously from one bit to
another. HPLabs, where I'm lucky to work, still has the mandate for "blue
skies" R&D, and though we've always been measured ultimately on the value
of that R&D to the corporation, the evaluation of that Value is done over
multi-year timescales, rather than "what have you done for me this
quarter". (Of course, the canny lab manager will arrange to have a few
relevance-bones to toss to the value-for-money-attack-dogs most quarters,
and will when something Big comes off (say, inkjet printing; say,
commercialised RISC architecture; say, a deep Linux capability; say,
supply-chain modelling/mgmt to make the outsourced manufacturing we've
moved to manageable and profitable) to be quite shameless in announcing
"ha ha, we've been investing in that on the quiet for the last 5+ years,
never've done that if we'd been funded on a contract model, now carry on
paying up and you might get another egg-o-gold one day". We work much
more closely with the consulting arm and potential suppliers/collaborators
than we did 10 or more years ago, but the basic mission hasn't changed.
In other bits of the company, change has been much bigger - if you worked
in manufacturing, you've become much more of an integrator of suppliers'
efforts than a horny-handed go-and-turn-a-batch-on-the-lathe-if-someone's-sick
jockey. And lots of people now work for HP who've been brought in as part
of an IT outsourcing deal (e.g. most of the IT staff at Proctor & Gamble)
who've not previously worked for HP, and don't see an immediate change in
their working conditions or relationships.
* Ah yes, my candidate for frankest-radio-interview-ever story. Some twenty
years ago now, someone from the Met's River Police was being interviewed
at discursive length on R4. "Nice thing about the Met", he says, "is it's
big enough that people can pursue their passions and talents. People with
a thing for horses find their way to the Mounted Section. Me, I love
messing about in boats - and here I am on the river. And," he carried on,
voice wonderfully flat, "those with a grudge against humanity work in
Traffic."
It's true, I Heard It Myself.
Stefek
PoP
>It's true, I Heard It Myself.
Over 25 years ago I was in HP Grenoble on a training course. Dave
Packard was in town holding some meetings around Europe. He did a
presentation in the staff canteen - with John Young who was CEO prior
to Lew Platt (showing my age now...).
Absolutely brilliant podium speakers, both of them. Highly motivating,
easy to see how HP got to where they did. It was sad when Bill and
Dave were no longer part of the company, things changed significantly
at the sharp end of customer sales and support where I was based.
HP Labs in Bristol - been in there a few times on fleeting visits.
Wonderful place. Pinewood was the other UK facility where it was real
nice to work - drove past there yesterday, bit of a shame to see the
For Sale hoardings outside - I remember the UK MD announcing in the
Winnersh canteen that it was being opened.
PoP
Suz
"Dee" <ra...@NOMAIL.COM> wrote in message news:bmec5p$1mq0$1...@news.icl.se...
> How loud is 43Db when compared with 52Db. Sorry to ask what seems to me as
a
> slightly daft question but our kitchen is open plan and noisy appliances
are
> not welcome.
>
> I obviously do not own a decibel meter (I am sure they are not called
that).
> So could anyone offer a comparison.
>
I have my eye on that AEG too for the same reason.
Lets us know what's it's like if you purchase it?
Suzanne
PS Can I just point out that a baby can cry at 115dB! -somewhere between a
pneumatic drill and a rock concert in front of the speakers. Hearing damage
starts at 90dB.
The Natural Philosopher
Weighted to allow for ear's lack of sensitivity to low and high frequences.
Dee
morning. I've learnt alot again. Oh how I wish I made more attention at
school. Logarithims and noise levels we must have studied it but sure as
hell have forgotten. Well as 43db is 10 times quieter than 52 then the AEG
will be the one
AndyP
"Dee" <ra...@NOMAIL.COM> wrote in message news:bmec5p$1mq0$1...@news.icl.se...
> How loud is 43Db when compared with 52Db. Sorry to ask what seems to me as
a
> slightly daft question but our kitchen is open plan and noisy appliances
are
> not welcome.
>
> I obviously do not own a decibel meter (I am sure they are not called
that).
> So could anyone offer a comparison.
>
> Thanks
>
> AndyP
>
>
>
>
John Laird
>Many thanks for all the replies. Off work yesterday but read them all this
>morning. I've learnt alot again. Oh how I wish I made more attention at
>school. Logarithims and noise levels we must have studied it but sure as
>hell have forgotten. Well as 43db is 10 times quieter than 52 then the AEG
>will be the one
It's not exactly clear what "10 times" means... Almost certainly not that
you could have 10 of them on at the same time and only making the same
amount of noise as 1 of the louder variety. Fwiw (and there are some sound
gurus lurking around here), I believe the average ear can only discern a
change of about 3dB (maybe 2). 10dB is perceived as an approximate doubling
in volume, iirc.
Nevertheless, the quieter machine will be noticeably quieter, but perhaps
not throughout its full cycle. They probably use some averaging algorithm
to quote results.
--
John
Mail john rather than nospam...
Dave Plowman
Dee <ra...@NOMAIL.COM> wrote:
> Well as 43db is 10 times quieter than 52 then the AEG will be the one
Think you should read the thread through again. ;-)
To the average human - not measuring instrument - a 10dB reduction
results in a halving of the perceived sound level.
--
*I used up all my sick days so I called in dead
Dave Plowman
John Laird <nos...@laird-towers.org.uk> wrote:
> It's not exactly clear what "10 times" means... Almost certainly not
> that you could have 10 of them on at the same time and only making the
> same amount of noise as 1 of the louder variety. Fwiw (and there are
> some sound gurus lurking around here), I believe the average ear can
> only discern a change of about 3dB (maybe 2). 10dB is perceived as an
> approximate doubling in volume, iirc.
I'm fairly certain the origin of the decibel (or bel, of which it is a
tenth) is that it is the minimum change in level that the average ear can
determine in its most sensitive range. 3dB might well be a more practical
amount, though, as an average across the audible spectrum.
> Nevertheless, the quieter machine will be noticeably quieter, but
> perhaps not throughout its full cycle. They probably use some averaging
> algorithm to quote results.
I'd hope they're quoting the peak level, and it should be 'A' weighted to
take into account the varying sensitivity of the ear to different
frequencies.
--
*What do little birdies see when they get knocked unconscious? *
Christian McArdle
>tenth) is that it is the minimum change in level that the average ear can
>determine in its most sensitive range.
Nah, the magnitude of a decibel is simply based on 1/10 of a log10 and, so,
is mathematically determined. However, you may be getting confused with your
story, as when calibrated for use as a noise measure, 0dB is set at a
standard threshold of human hearing level by convention.
Christian.
Dave Plowman
Well, regardless of where you start the scale, the bel must be a
'quantity' based on something as any unit is.
--
*If God had wanted me to touch my toes, he would have put them on my knees
stefe...@hp.com
>
> Well, regardless of where you start the scale, the bel must be a
> 'quantity' based on something as any unit is.
>
ratio of one measurement [in this case of a sound level] to another
measurement of the same thing. So the 'base of the unit' as you
put is divided away to nuttin'. And hence the insistence of the
pedants on saying "you can't give a value in decibels without
also giving the reference value"; they're right in an anal sort of
way, but for common level measurements there's a widely accepted
reference level - for audible sound pressure 0dB is "person with
good hearing (barely) can't hear it [but if it's made a bit louder
they will]; for audio levels it's 0.775V into 600 ohms if I recall
correctly. To express a wide range of ratios with smaller numbers,
we then take the logarithm of the ratio, so that a difference in
level of 1000 times is 3 bels (1000 being 10*10*10 - three tens),
a difference in level of one-hundredth is -2 bels (1/100 being
1/(10*10) - two tens on the bottom). And in a final twist to
confuse the unwary (maybe for marketing reasons? gawd knows) we
use the decibel, tenth-of-a-bel, for common use; so a ratio of
100 gets called 20dB, a ratio of a million is 60dB, and a doubling
is just about 3dB, since the base-10 log of 2 is about 0.3010 from
memory (you can tell I went to school when log tables were still
standard issue - but only just!).
It's as if we measured speeds as a ratio to some Standard, say a
British Standard Walking Speed of 4mph. Then a speed of 30mph would
get called "7.5", a speed of 1mph would be called "0.25", and so on.
If the Metrication Council then demanded we recalibrate the
British Standard Walking Speed to be expressed as 6.437376 km/h,
the 30mph = 48.28032 kp/h would still be called "7.5" (wot with
48.280832 being 7.5 times bigger'n 6.437376). The underlying
arbirtrary unit has been divided out, leaving the "dimensionless"
ratio.
HTH, Stefek
harrogate
<stefe...@hp.com> wrote in message
news:bmk7ce$n2g$1...@murdoch.hpl.hp.com...
Almost correct - I think? Except 0dB in audio is actually 0dBm which equates
to 1mW into a resistive load, by convention accepted as 600R unless
otherwise stated. 1mW into 600R is almost exactly 775mV.
--
Woody
CRB
> Well, regardless of where you start the scale, the bel must be a
> 'quantity' based on something as any unit is.
Not quite. A bel is a ratio, not a unit.
CRB
Dave Plowman
harrogate <harr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Almost correct - I think? Except 0dB in audio is actually 0dBm which
> equates to 1mW into a resistive load, by convention accepted as 600R
> unless otherwise stated. 1mW into 600R is almost exactly 775mV.
Indeed. And with 'voltage' dBs, which will be the type used for quoting
the loudness of appliances etc, 6dB is a doubling of the actual voltage
measured. 3dB is a doubling of power, so applies to amplifiers, etc.
--
*He's not dead - he's electroencephalographically challenged
Dave Plowman
CRB <clive...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> > Well, regardless of where you start the scale, the bel must be a
> > 'quantity' based on something as any unit is.
> Not quite. A bel is a ratio, not a unit.
Why give it a name then if it is purely abstract?
FWIW, my dictionary says it's a unit for measuring sound.
--
*Can atheists get insurance for acts of God? *
Christian McArdle
Because it is a very useful concept and deserves a name. What would you call
a decibel then? The unit formerly known as decibel? TUFKAD. Catchy. There
are other dimensionless units you would have to expunge, of course. Percent
(%) is a useful one that would have to go.
>FWIW, my dictionary says it's a unit for measuring sound.
Your dictionary is wrong. It is used to measure power ratios (usually in
oscillatory systems of large dynamic range). Sound power is only one of the
measurements it is useful for. Amongst other things, it is also used to
measure vibrations and to compare electronic signals, not necessarily audio
in frequency or nature.
Christian.
BEng (Electronic and Electrical Engineering)
CRB
> In article <b34e8b05.03101...@posting.google.com>,
> CRB <clive...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> > > Well, regardless of where you start the scale, the bel must be a
> > > 'quantity' based on something as any unit is.
>
> > Not quite. A bel is a ratio, not a unit.
>
> Why give it a name then if it is purely abstract?
>
> FWIW, my dictionary says it's a unit for measuring sound.
Oh, it's not abstract, it's real enough. The point though, as already
made in another posting, is that it is dimensionless.
CRB
CRB
>
> Indeed. And with 'voltage' dBs, which will be the type used for quoting
> the loudness of appliances etc, 6dB is a doubling of the actual voltage
> measured. 3dB is a doubling of power, so applies to amplifiers, etc.
Just in case any confusion has been introduced by talking about
"types" of dBs, there is no such thing as a "voltage dB" or a "power
dB". A dB is a dB, i.e. a specific ratio, which by definition is
measured in power, but which can also be measured in voltage (or in
current come to that) as long as the two measurements share a common
impedance.
CRB
Christian McArdle
> "types" of dBs, there is no such thing as a "voltage dB" or a "power
> dB". A dB is a dB, i.e. a specific ratio, which by definition is
> measured in power, but which can also be measured in voltage (or in
> current come to that) as long as the two measurements share a common
> impedance.
Provided that the ratio is adjusted in line with the variable's relationship
to power. Power is related to the square of voltage, so multiplication of
ten in voltage terms is not 10dB, but 20dB.
An example in numbers with a 1 ohm resistive load:
1V rms produces 1W (call this 0dB)
10V rms produces 100W
This is a 20dB amplification, as although it gives 10x the voltage it gives
100x the power, which is expressed as 20dB.
Christian.
Suz
news:3f8e5891$0$250$ed9e...@reading.news.pipex.net...
Everybody's right!
Main Entry: deci·bel
Pronunciation: 'de-s&-"bel, -b&l
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary deci- + bel
Date: 1928
1 a : a unit for expressing the ratio of two amounts of electric or acoustic
signal power equal to 10 times the common logarithm of this ratio b : a unit
for expressing the ratio of the magnitudes of two electric voltages or
currents or analogous acoustic quantities equal to 20 times the common
logarithm of the voltage or current ratio
2 : a unit for expressing the relative intensity of sounds on a scale from
zero for the average least perceptible sound to about 130 for the average
pain level
3 : degree of loudness; also : extremely loud sound -- usually used in
plural
www.webster.com
Dave Plowman
Suz <s...@dontsendmail.com> wrote:
> Everybody's right!
When dBs are discussed, you can guarantee as many different answers as
questions. ;-)
--
*A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion.*
jacob
43 decibles is the sound level we are asked by env health dept not to
exceed outside our boundary when we set up our joinery shop in new
premises. 43 db being a measurement of the ambient sound in the
neighbourhood and equivalent to a suburban street sound level. Its
actually 43db level equivalent measured over a sample hour. I don't
know if they actually measured it on location or merely took it from
tables.
cheers
Jacob
gittyupgoosies
OMG! Who is this rough rider? Quasimodo? Yikes. Can we plz finish the prostate
exam?!
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/how-loud-is-43db-21489-.htm
gittyupgoosies
Yes well I see mister Nat Phil! Ah hem! So 50 Decahillbillies is "low" eh? And
40 Decahillbillies is "extremely low" Ha! Tell that to the birds and the bees
next time your trousers are down at your knees....The hills are alive with the
sound of Muzak!