Boiler isolator switch

[BartC]

Is there a problem with the electrical isolator switch for a wall-mounted
combi boiler, being placed on the wall beneath the boiler, rather than to
one side? It's been in the same place for decades.

I've got a guy coming around who suggested it was against regulations and
needs to be moved.

He also said the lead pipe coming out of the gas meter was now illegal, and
wanted to redo all the pipework, instead of just upgrading part of it. In
fact, the pipe was copper when I cleaned off some of the tarnish. But would
that lead pipe have needed to be upgraded? I got the feeling he was just
making some of this stuff up.

--
Bartc

[Nick Odell]

If your existing installation was legal at the time it was installed
it remains legal now. If you want to change something, chances are new
regulations will apply. Why have you asked this guy to come round?

Nick

[A.Lee]

He was, on both points.
Nothing wrong with a switch beneath a boiler, so long as it is
accessible, and lead pipe is still on many gas supplies.

--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

[BartC]

"Nick Odell" <gurzhfvp...@ntlworld.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:2108p7dm7astjjso0...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 13:51:02 +0100, "BartC" <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>
>>Is there a problem with the electrical isolator switch for a wall-mounted
>>combi boiler, being placed on the wall beneath the boiler, rather than to
>>one side? It's been in the same place for decades.

>>But would
>>that lead pipe have needed to be upgraded? I got the feeling he was just
>>making some of this stuff up.
>
> If your existing installation was legal at the time it was installed
> it remains legal now. If you want to change something, chances are new
> regulations will apply. Why have you asked this guy to come round?

The short answer is that the new boiler/pipes I had fitted a few weeks ago
was by someone who it turned out wasn't gas-safe registered. (This despite
advertising in the (I assumed) gas-safe sponsored panel in the local
directory. I should have double-checked I know, but you never do.)

Although the work was shoddy, the main issue was of upgrading the gas supply
pipe to the boiler. This new guy is registered, but seems more interested in
generating extra work for himself. (He also said the boiler need to be
A-rated to be legal; that at least I managed to find out myself: boilers
have to be A or B-rated, and this one was B. Perhaps he was hoping I would
get him to change it.)

--
Bartc

[js.b1]

So...

First guy claims to be Gas Safe.
- Does not know regulations.
- Eg, regulations about receiving payment for gas work.
- So obtained money by deception.

Second guy claims to be Gas Safe.
- Creates fake regulation about socket location.
- Creates fake regulation that regulations are retrospective.
- Creates fake regulation that lead gas piping is illegal.
- Creates fake regulation about efficiency grading.
- So is going to obtain money by deception.

Difference is the latter has a "Gas Safe" label on his spurs. Find
someone else.

Amusingly, whilst creating a fake regulation about location he might
actually have missed that a switched socket has been used. Ideally you
use an UNswitched socket so the boiler must be unplugged to force
isolation. That is a trivial wiring accessory to change, and actually
worth doing if anyone might knock the boiler switch off with counter
top appliances, cutting boards or absent minded fingers.

What next, EC earth bonding around plastic piping (looks as funny as
it is electrically), 16mm 6491X must be run to your shower upstairs
(nice little earner)?

PS. How do you know the supply gas pipe sizing is wrong? Has he done
the calculations to prove it is wrong?

[Mentalguy2k8]

"js.b1" <js...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:ee851b12-f90b-409e...@n5g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...

> So...
>
> First guy claims to be Gas Safe.
> - Does not know regulations.
> - Eg, regulations about receiving payment for gas work.
> - So obtained money by deception.
>
> Second guy claims to be Gas Safe.
> - Creates fake regulation about socket location.
> - Creates fake regulation that regulations are retrospective.
> - Creates fake regulation that lead gas piping is illegal.
> - Creates fake regulation about efficiency grading.
> - So is going to obtain money by deception.
>
> Difference is the latter has a "Gas Safe" label on his spurs. Find
> someone else.

Shame it isn't standard practice for tradesmen to give a written estimate
including what they've recommended and why, and under which regulation
they've insisted the work must be done. At least you'd have something to
work with when you later find out they were lying.

[dennis@home]

"Mentalguy2k8" <Mental...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jn14k7$bjl$1...@dont-email.me...

Well if they haven't given a written quote, they probably haven't given the
7 day cooling off period required under law or got you to sign a waiver so
you don't have to pay them.

[David WE Roberts]

"BartC" <b...@freeuk.com> wrote in message news:jn11pn$q8s$1...@dont-email.me...

I assume that you have reported this to Trading Standards and the Gas Safe
people.

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[BartC]

"js.b1" <js...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:ee851b12-f90b-409e...@n5g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...

> So...
>
> First guy claims to be Gas Safe.
> - Does not know regulations.
> - Eg, regulations about receiving payment for gas work.
> - So obtained money by deception.
>
> Second guy claims to be Gas Safe.
> - Creates fake regulation about socket location.
> - Creates fake regulation that regulations are retrospective.
> - Creates fake regulation that lead gas piping is illegal.
> - Creates fake regulation about efficiency grading.
> - So is going to obtain money by deception.

> Difference is the latter has a "Gas Safe" label on his spurs. Find
> someone else.

Finding someone else is not so easy: they don't answer the phone; they don't
turn up; or they're incompetent; or greedy. I've always had problems in the
past with anything to do with heating or plumbing.

This engineer is supposed to be coming round Monday morning (if he turns up;
I've already expressed my doubts about the pipe thing on the phone the other
day). If I can persuade him to only do what's necessary, I might still use
him.

> Amusingly, whilst creating a fake regulation about location he might
> actually have missed that a switched socket has been used. Ideally you
> use an UNswitched socket so the boiler must be unplugged to force
> isolation.

The switch is a 'fused spur outlet' I think; it's not a socket. It does need
tidying up, as the cable to the boiler is just coming out of a gap around
the edge instead of through a proper hole. It's also got the wrong fuse. But
I can take care of these details myself.

> PS. How do you know the supply gas pipe sizing is wrong? Has he done
> the calculations to prove it is wrong?

The installation manual says the supply pipe should be 22mm (although the
inlet seems to be 15mm). I questioned the first guy about this, he said it'd
be OK, and I went along with that because I thought he knew what he was
doing.

--
Bartc

[Brian Gaff]

Maybe he knocked him out?

Brian

--
Brian Gaff - bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!

"Nick Odell" <gurzhfvp...@ntlworld.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:2108p7dm7astjjso0...@4ax.com...

[BartC]

"David WE Roberts" <nos...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9vijvh...@mid.individual.net...

>
> "BartC" <b...@freeuk.com> wrote in message
> news:jn11pn$q8s$1...@dont-email.me...

>> The short answer is that the new boiler/pipes I had fitted a few weeks
>> ago was by someone who it turned out wasn't gas-safe registered. (This
>> despite advertising in the (I assumed) gas-safe sponsored panel in the
>> local directory. I should have double-checked I know, but you never do.)

> I assume that you have reported this to Trading Standards and the Gas Safe
> people.

I've spoken to the gas-safe people. And I will at some point contact the
directory company and ask how it was possible for someone to advertise in
the gas-safe panel, when they're not registered (and to also have a
'gas-safe' icon against their company in the on-line version).

However I'm more interested at the moment in having a safe, legal
installation, than taking action against an individual (who could turn
nasty).

--
Bartc

[fred]

In article <1kiyhm3.1wn4zm91fr0biiN%alan@darkroom.+.com>, A.Lee
<alan@darkroom.+.com> writes

From other posts it sounds like at least part of the lead is undersized
and needs upgraded. I suspect, like water, modifications to existing
lead are no longer permitted making a complete or near complete
replacement necessary.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

[js.b1]

On Apr 22, 4:10 pm, "BartC" <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
> I've always had problems in the past with
> anything to do with heating or plumbing.

Hence we have 50-70mm insulation, storage heaters, heat pump & south
facing :-)

> The switch is a 'fused spur outlet' I think; it's not a socket. It does need
> tidying up, as the cable to the boiler is just coming out of a gap around
> the edge instead of through a proper hole. It's also got the wrong fuse. But
> I can take care of these details myself.

On the basis of that, just make sure you isolate the right circuit :-)


Re pipe size...
- Manufacturers instructions generally override everything
- However very short runs might be possible in 15mm

You design to ensure 21 millibar is available at each appliance at
full demand, there should be a pressure test-point & isolation valve
by the appliance to confirm this (relatively recent change).

Tables specify length X is possible in pipe size Y for demand Z, and
every elbow costs you some of that length. The tables are fine (but
small sizes like 10mm & 8mm are notoriously inaccurate at long lengths
re pressure drop, not an issue here). Copper Association has a PDF
which will give you a good background to this, as a consumer.

Yes I wish tradesmen had to specify works, why & cost out. It would
get them more work in the end because people would trust rather than
"paint is ugly, you need a new boiler".

[js.b1]

On Apr 22, 5:05 pm, fred <n...@for.mail> wrote:
>  From other posts it sounds like at least part of the lead is undersized
> and needs upgraded. I suspect, like water, modifications to existing
> lead are no longer permitted making a complete or near complete
> replacement necessary.

You can remove lead.
- It can suffer crystallisation, and can festoon if hung on crampets.
- I suspect some minerals can eat into it, if very damp over decades.

You can only connect to lead if a suitable copper/brass termination
exists.
You can not add a new termination, you can not sweat a new joint.

If easy to replace the lead (all exposed) then do so. It melts in a
fire, soldered joints tend to leak a lot less re 21mbar.

A National Grid Inspector said lead rarely worries him because there
are no joints. What worried him was the copper modifications because
recent ones tend to be poor (skill gone) and very aged ones can have
very significant corrosion. Case in point, a copper run through a 1972
wall which is known to be damp, black mortar, cement packing, despite
Denso Tape used to cause "green flashes in the gas fire flame". Only
when the skirting was removed did the copper pipe disintegrate, it was
like a medical gauze.

Very rarely lead can be block tin, which is very valuable if 10s of
metres.

Plenty of lead gas incomers under the stairs in Victorian houses, that
does make me queasy...

[BartC]

"js.b1" <js...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message

news:fcc3cf91-bb42-45e0...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...

> On Apr 22, 4:10 pm, "BartC" <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:

> Re pipe size...
> - Manufacturers instructions generally override everything
> - However very short runs might be possible in 15mm
>
> You design to ensure 21 millibar is available at each appliance at
> full demand, there should be a pressure test-point & isolation valve
> by the appliance to confirm this (relatively recent change).

I haven't mentioned yet that the installation needs a landlord's
certificate. So these things have to be done right (there's also a
condensate pipe that's not connected to a proper drain).

However neither this guy, nor another engineer who quoted for the job (but
in the end declined to turn up), nor the people at gas-safe, seemed to think
the setup is actually dangerous. There's no gas leak, and a CO monitor shows
0. It just needs the proper bits of pipe and the right paperwork.

--
Bartc

[Stephen H]

What I will say is that having any electrical accessories underneath a
boiler is in my view not good practice.

The reasoning behind my view is that if the boiler springs a leak, you
will have water dripping onto your electrical accessories which is not a
good idea.

In every house I've ever owned, whenever I had a new boiler installed,
if there was anything electrical under it, I always moved them as a
matter of course before having the boiler installed.

The only exception to that rule is if there was a worktop seperating the
boiler from the electrical accessory, such as in a kitchen. The boiler
would be above teh work top, and there could be a dishwasher or a
washing machine underneath the work top and there was a socket at the back.

Stephen.

[John Rumm]

On 22/04/2012 13:51, BartC wrote:

> Is there a problem with the electrical isolator switch for a
> wall-mounted combi boiler, being placed on the wall beneath the boiler,
> rather than to one side? It's been in the same place for decades.

Its not ideal (e.g. if the boiler leaks), but not explicitly forbidden.

> I've got a guy coming around who suggested it was against regulations
> and needs to be moved.
>
> He also said the lead pipe coming out of the gas meter was now illegal,

From BS6891 - 2005:

"8.3.3 Connecting lead composition pipes

When lead composition pipes are encountered and any connection joint has
to be made, then only a soldered cup joint onto copper pipe or a
suitable brass union fitting shall be made. Compression fittings
designed for jointing water weight lead pipework shall not be used.

COMMENTARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS ON 8.3.3
It is essential that care be taken when soldering a joint onto lead
composition pipework as blow lamps might provide too much heat at the
joint. Lead solder should be used for this purpose. It is essential that
joints be mechanically strong and gas tight."

So no mention of lead being removed...

The GSIR, prevents installation of new lead pipework however. See 5 (2)(a)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2451/regulation/5/made

> and wanted to redo all the pipework, instead of just upgrading part of
> it. In fact, the pipe was copper when I cleaned off some of the tarnish.
> But would that lead pipe have needed to be upgraded? I got the feeling
> he was just making some of this stuff up.

Can you smell that? not gas, not horse, not donkey, must be bull!


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[John Rumm]

On 22/04/2012 16:10, BartC wrote:
> "js.b1" <js...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:ee851b12-f90b-409e...@n5g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
>> So...
>>
>> First guy claims to be Gas Safe.
>> - Does not know regulations.
>> - Eg, regulations about receiving payment for gas work.
>> - So obtained money by deception.
>>
>> Second guy claims to be Gas Safe.
>> - Creates fake regulation about socket location.
>> - Creates fake regulation that regulations are retrospective.
>> - Creates fake regulation that lead gas piping is illegal.
>> - Creates fake regulation about efficiency grading.
>> - So is going to obtain money by deception.
>
>> Difference is the latter has a "Gas Safe" label on his spurs. Find
>> someone else.
>
> Finding someone else is not so easy: they don't answer the phone; they
> don't turn up; or they're incompetent; or greedy. I've always had
> problems in the past with anything to do with heating or plumbing.

Now you know why many of us DIY ;-)

> This engineer is supposed to be coming round Monday morning (if he turns
> up; I've already expressed my doubts about the pipe thing on the phone
> the other day). If I can persuade him to only do what's necessary, I
> might still use him.
>
>> Amusingly, whilst creating a fake regulation about location he might
>> actually have missed that a switched socket has been used. Ideally you
>> use an UNswitched socket so the boiler must be unplugged to force
>> isolation.
>
> The switch is a 'fused spur outlet' I think; it's not a socket. It does
> need tidying up, as the cable to the boiler is just coming out of a gap
> around the edge instead of through a proper hole. It's also got the
> wrong fuse. But I can take care of these details myself.

Some cable outlets do have the cable exit at the side and not through a
hole in the face plate.

>> PS. How do you know the supply gas pipe sizing is wrong? Has he done
>> the calculations to prove it is wrong?
>
> The installation manual says the supply pipe should be 22mm (although
> the inlet seems to be 15mm). I questioned the first guy about this, he
> said it'd be OK, and I went along with that because I thought he knew
> what he was doing.

Most of them do have 15mm inlets...

What size (i.e. power) is the boiler?

[John Rumm]

On 22/04/2012 18:53, js.b1 wrote:
> On Apr 22, 4:10 pm, "BartC"<b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>> I've always had problems in the past with
>> anything to do with heating or plumbing.
>

> Hence we have 50-70mm insulation, storage heaters, heat pump& south

> facing :-)
>
>> The switch is a 'fused spur outlet' I think; it's not a socket. It does need
>> tidying up, as the cable to the boiler is just coming out of a gap around
>> the edge instead of through a proper hole. It's also got the wrong fuse. But
>> I can take care of these details myself.
>
> On the basis of that, just make sure you isolate the right circuit :-)
>
>
> Re pipe size...
> - Manufacturers instructions generally override everything
> - However very short runs might be possible in 15mm
>
> You design to ensure 21 millibar is available at each appliance at

> full demand, there should be a pressure test-point& isolation valve

> by the appliance to confirm this (relatively recent change).

Might be worth clarifying that the 21mb is at the meter, you can drop up
to 1mb through the installation pipework, so long as you can deliver
20mb or more at the appliance with the pipe under maximum load.

[YAPH]

On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 14:35:22 +0100, BartC wrote:

> "Nick Odell" <gurzhfvp...@ntlworld.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:2108p7dm7astjjso0...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 13:51:02 +0100, "BartC" <b...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Is there a problem with the electrical isolator switch for a
>>>wall-mounted combi boiler, being placed on the wall beneath the boiler,
>>>rather than to one side? It's been in the same place for decades.
>
>>>But would
>>>that lead pipe have needed to be upgraded? I got the feeling he was
>>>just making some of this stuff up.
>>
>> If your existing installation was legal at the time it was installed it
>> remains legal now. If you want to change something, chances are new
>> regulations will apply. Why have you asked this guy to come round?

...

> Although the work was shoddy, the main issue was of upgrading the gas
> supply pipe to the boiler. This new guy is registered, but seems more
> interested in generating extra work for himself. (He also said the
> boiler need to be A-rated to be legal; that at least I managed to find
> out myself: boilers have to be A or B-rated, and this one was B. Perhaps
> he was hoping I would get him to change it.)

The building regs are changing so that only A-rated boilers will be
permissible. They may already have done so: it's something I registered
is happening but not when as it doesn't affect me directly since I only
install A-rated ones. (The B-rated ones were generally standard-
efficiency designs with crappy secondary heat exchangers grafted on to
drag them screaming and kicking into the 21st century, and hang the
reliability, for the benefit for dinosaur manufacturers and installers
terrified of change.)

Regarding the lead pipe (I assume it's just a foot or so between the
meter and the fixed pipework) it's permissible to leave it in service if
it's serviceable. If it needs to be disturbed in any way it would be very
good practice at the very least to replace it.

Electrics beneath appliances full of water under pressure with multiple
joints involved is a face-palmingly stupid idea but I don't think it
explicitly falls foul of any regs.

--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

It's bad luck to be superstitious.

[BartC]

"John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message
news:4M-dnagmaPklLQnS...@brightview.co.uk...

> On 22/04/2012 16:10, BartC wrote:

>> The installation manual says the supply pipe should be 22mm (although
>> the inlet seems to be 15mm). I questioned the first guy about this, he
>> said it'd be OK, and I went along with that because I thought he knew
>> what he was doing.
>
> Most of them do have 15mm inlets...
>
> What size (i.e. power) is the boiler?

It's 24kW, and in fact the inlet is 22mm. But it turns out there is only 6/7
feet of 15mm pipe in the run to the boiler.

(The engineer is here now, but was not keen to do the work unless he also
took care of some other stuff (to do with CH pipes and radiators, which,
while needing to be done, would have been DIYable during the summer). He
agrees the 'lead' pipe, which is actually copper, seems fine.

I let him go ahead, otherwise that would be the second engineer who'd
declined to do the work because of not being happy to sign off a
substandard, even if legal, installation.)

--
Bartc

[John Rumm]

On 23/04/2012 12:18, BartC wrote:
> "John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message
> news:4M-dnagmaPklLQnS...@brightview.co.uk...
>> On 22/04/2012 16:10, BartC wrote:
>
>>> The installation manual says the supply pipe should be 22mm (although
>>> the inlet seems to be 15mm). I questioned the first guy about this, he
>>> said it'd be OK, and I went along with that because I thought he knew
>>> what he was doing.
>>
>> Most of them do have 15mm inlets...
>>
>> What size (i.e. power) is the boiler?
>
> It's 24kW, and in fact the inlet is 22mm. But it turns out there is only
> 6/7 feet of 15mm pipe in the run to the boiler.

Assuming that is the heat input it gives a max gas rate of 24 / 38.5 x
3.6 = 2.24 m^3/hr

If that were being run in only 15mm then you would have a max effective
length of a bit over 3m

(effective length counts a swept bend 0.3m, and an elbow as 0.5m)

So it unless very close to the meter and there is nothing else sharing
the pipes, it would be more common to run 22mm for most of the way, and
drop to 15mm for the last bit if it helps aesthetically.

> (The engineer is here now, but was not keen to do the work unless he
> also took care of some other stuff (to do with CH pipes and radiators,
> which, while needing to be done, would have been DIYable during the
> summer). He agrees the 'lead' pipe, which is actually copper, seems fine.
>
> I let him go ahead, otherwise that would be the second engineer who'd
> declined to do the work because of not being happy to sign off a
> substandard, even if legal, installation.)

Yup, given you are renting the place out, having the require paperwork
is important. If he is happy to check and sign off everything without
needing to demolish and rebuild the house, for a not too extortionate
fee, then go for it.