Quickest way to boil a kettle, in a car?
Tim Downie
race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.
Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have to
be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
suggestions please) .
Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle or
might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
reasonable/affordable.
Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well as
make coffee/tea etc.
My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial battery.
Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours say or should I
invest in a second battery?
Tim
Jeff
"Tim Downie" <timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:38omrsF...@individual.net...
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=kettle+12v&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB
Regards Jeff
Gordon Henderson
Tim Downie <timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
>race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.
>
>Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have to
>be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
>suggestions please) .
I'd be tempted to suggest you invest in a good stainless steel flask -
eg http://www.lifeventure.co.uk/stainless_steel/vacuum_flasks.shtml
I have a one litre one of those and my wife a 0.7 litre, and when
properly heated up in the morning, really do keep stuff hot for hours
and hours.
It'd save all that faffing about with heaters, spilling liquids, etc.
But if you do go down the electric heater route, remember a 1KW heater
is going to suck just over 80 amps out of the system - which with a good
battery might be OK, for a very short period of time, but then you have
the wory about the wiring being up to the job! (Although I suspect the
listtle travel kettles, etc. are much less power than that and designed
to work to the 10 amps (or whatever) is avalable via a cigarette lighter
socket.
Gordon
use...@isbd.co.uk
inverter, if your using one) 1000/12 amps, which is more than 80 amps.
That'll discharge any car bettery pretty rapidly, most are around
40A/h or thereabouts so will be completely and utterly discharged
after 30 minutes if in perfect condition. In practice discharging a
battery this deeply will do it no good at all.
You'd be better off with one of the 12 volt immersion type heaters
which can heat up a mug/cup of liquid fairly quickly with much less
power (there's much less to heat up than there is in a kettle).
--
Chris Green
Tim Downie
> In article <38omrsF...@individual.net>,
> Tim Downie <timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long
>> distance race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption
>> in the car.
>>
>> Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally
>> have to be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or
>> other naked flame suggestions please) .
>
> I'd be tempted to suggest you invest in a good stainless steel flask -
> eg http://www.lifeventure.co.uk/stainless_steel/vacuum_flasks.shtml
>
> I have a one litre one of those and my wife a 0.7 litre, and when
> properly heated up in the morning, really do keep stuff hot for hours
> and hours.
Hours and hours isn't long enough. Hours and hours and hours would be more
like it. I'll need a sustainable supply for at least 24 hours.
Tim
Tim Downie
>>
>
> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=kettle+12v&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB
Very clever.
And would you know offhand if any of these kettle have exposed elements or
elements sealed beneath a flat base? (Not much use for heating soup if the
elements are exposed)
The reason I *asked* here rather than just googling is because I was hoping
to get answers from folk who might actually know something.
Regards
Tim
Mary Fisher
> Jeff wrote:
>
>>>
>>
>> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=kettle+12v&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB
>
> Very clever.
I don't know if that's the same asone we have - it looks like it - the
caveat is in the 'mini'.
It does boil water, can't remember if there's an exposed element, but it's
only about half a pint at a time. The last time I used ours was about ten
years ago. No idea where it is even.
>
> And would you know offhand if any of these kettle have exposed elements or
> elements sealed beneath a flat base? (Not much use for heating soup if
> the
> elements are exposed)
Another problem is that the unit is plastic and soup flavours do tend to
linger ...
>
> The reason I *asked* here rather than just googling is because I was
> hoping
> to get answers from folk who might actually know something.
That's the best I can do, sorry.
Mary
Mary Fisher
"Gordon Henderson" <gor...@lion.drogon.net> wrote in message
news:d079qu$8u9$1...@lion.drogon.net...
> In article <38omrsF...@individual.net>,
> Tim Downie <timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
>>race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.
>>
>>Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have
>>to
>>be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
>>suggestions please) .
>
> I'd be tempted to suggest you invest in a good stainless steel flask -
> eg http://www.lifeventure.co.uk/stainless_steel/vacuum_flasks.shtml
Oh yes! That's what we use now. SS flasks. Not that we take soup but you
could, I'd still suggest a separate one for soup.
>
> I have a one litre one of those and my wife a 0.7 litre, and when
> properly heated up in the morning, really do keep stuff hot for hours
> and hours.
Overnight. And unbreakable. Wonderful things.
Mary
Mary Fisher
Have one for each support stop for each liquid. They're really not expensive
and are safer than any form of heating in a car. If they're not opened they
will keep liquids warm for well over 24 hours. Even when opened they stay
hot for a very long time.
Mary
>
> Tim
>
>
>
Tim Downie
> "Gordon Henderson" <gor...@lion.drogon.net> wrote in message
> news:d079qu$8u9$1...@lion.drogon.net...
>>
>> - eg http://www.lifeventure.co.uk/stainless_steel/vacuum_flasks.shtml
>
> Oh yes! That's what we use now. SS flasks. Not that we take soup but
> you could, I'd still suggest a separate one for soup.
Why should a SS thermos be better than a glass one from the point of view of
heat retention. We have one and I'd say that's it's definitely inferior to
our glass ones for keeping things warm. They're also expensive and heavy in
comparison.
>>
>> I have a one litre one of those and my wife a 0.7 litre, and when
>> properly heated up in the morning, really do keep stuff hot for hours
>> and hours.
>
> Overnight. And unbreakable. Wonderful things.
Well I've never broken a thermos so that aspect doesn't weigh heavily on my
mind. ;-)
Tim
Tim Downie
>> be more like it. I'll need a sustainable supply for at least 24
>> hours.
>
> Have one for each support stop for each liquid. They're really not
> expensive and are safer than any form of heating in a car. If they're
> not opened they will keep liquids warm for well over 24 hours. Even
> when opened they stay hot for a very long time.
Well that may be your experience Mary but I've never found thermos flasks
able to keep thing *hot* for that long. Warm yes, but there may be times I
want something hot as opposed to warm, particularly later on. I'd really
rather have the facility to heat things up on the go.
Thanks anyway.
Tim
Phil Addison
I have no idea about cost but I believe outdoor sports shops sell a self
heating gizmo for that sort of thing. I have a suspicion the heater
comes integral with the food/drink, so your menu may be somewhat
limited. I guess it works by allowing two suitable chemicals to mix
together and generate heat when you break a seal.
Now, just how DIY do you want this? There is a copious supply of piping
hot water in your vehicle cooling system. Surely someone/somewhere has
rigged up a means of routing that through a mini heating coil which
could be dunked in a steel flask heat up or keep hot the contents? I bet
google has some designs already!
Regarding things that plug into the cigar lighter, we bought a
mothercare baby-bottle heater which turned out to be a 3" wide plastic
strip with an (IIRC) about 50W flat strip heater embedded in it. You
wrapped this round the bottle, and it took some 10-15 minutes to heat it
to luke warm. That was with about 6 oz of milk in the bottle. Being
external to the bottle it is very inefficient, but wrapping the lot in a
towel helps, although the instructions forbid that for some reason.
As a cheap and easy solution I would go for the 12V immersion heater. I
know someone who has one and apparently it is fine for mug quantities.
Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me
Mary Fisher
The modern stainless steel ones are unbelievably efficient. I was proved
wrong!
Mary
>
> Thanks anyway.
>
> Tim
>
>
Gordon Henderson
Mary Fisher
> Mary Fisher wrote:
>> "Gordon Henderson" <gor...@lion.drogon.net> wrote in message
>> news:d079qu$8u9$1...@lion.drogon.net...
>>>
>>> I'd be tempted to suggest you invest in a good stainless steel flask
>>> - eg http://www.lifeventure.co.uk/stainless_steel/vacuum_flasks.shtml
>>
>> Oh yes! That's what we use now. SS flasks. Not that we take soup but
>> you could, I'd still suggest a separate one for soup.
>
> Why should a SS thermos be better than a glass one from the point of view
> of heat retention.
No idea. Some techie hereabouts will know.
> We have one and I'd say that's it's definitely inferior to our glass ones
> for keeping things warm. They're also expensive and heavy in comparison.
Heavy? Oh no! Expensive? No. I paid £4 for our last one. I'm talking about
the modern ones, not the prototypes. We have those too.
>
>>>
>>> I have a one litre one of those and my wife a 0.7 litre, and when
>>> properly heated up in the morning, really do keep stuff hot for hours
>>> and hours.
>>
>> Overnight. And unbreakable. Wonderful things.
>
> Well I've never broken a thermos so that aspect doesn't weigh heavily on
> my mind. ;-)
There's a first time for everything!
Mary
>
> Tim
>
>
Gordon Henderson
Mary Fisher <mary....@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Gordon Henderson" <gor...@lion.drogon.net> wrote in message
>news:d079qu$8u9$1...@lion.drogon.net...
>> In article <38omrsF...@individual.net>,
>> Tim Downie <timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
>>>race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.
>>>
>>>Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have
>>>to
>>>be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
>>>suggestions please) .
>>
>> I'd be tempted to suggest you invest in a good stainless steel flask -
>> eg http://www.lifeventure.co.uk/stainless_steel/vacuum_flasks.shtml
>
>Oh yes! That's what we use now. SS flasks. Not that we take soup but you
>could, I'd still suggest a separate one for soup.
I've taken soup in mine, but only fine soup, not really chunky stuff! The
pouring cap is very good too. Wify bought me one for birthday a couple
of years back and I then bought her one after she was jealous of the
light weight of mine compared to her heavy old "1st generation SS
flask". We've used them on long walks and (whats left of) the contents
has still been warm at the end of a long day.
Gordon
doozer
flasks (the one we have gives tea easily hot enough to drink well after
24 hours - and l like _hot_ tea) and fill them with hot water.
At first you will be able to just use the water from the Thermos thus
saving your battery. When the Thermos water has cooled a little you can
top up its warmth with a small plug in heater. Using this approach you
can probably use a tiny fraction of the power you would otherwise need
heating cold water.
Water at 95 degrees will make tea and soup just as well as water that
has boiled / is boiling. Actually boiling the water in this situation is
silly because you need to supply a tremendous amount of energy to
overcame the hear of vaporization (40.7 KJ/mol) for no gain.
Graham
Bob Mannix
"Mary Fisher" <mary....@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:422738c3$0$2650$4c56...@master.news.zetnet.net...
It is essential to preheat SS flasks by filling them with boiling water for
5 minutes before filling them (assuming you are keeping things hot!). Get
one with a valve top so you don't have to actually open it. In my experience
(agreeing with Mary again - oh no) they outperform the glass ones in terms
of heat retention quite significantly if you do this (yes, even if you do
the same to the glass ones). I have both and never use the glass ones any
more.
There is also the added benefit (when walking) you can bang them on rocks
and only dent them!
--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)
doozer
> Mary Fisher wrote:
>
>>"Gordon Henderson" <gor...@lion.drogon.net> wrote in message
>>news:d079qu$8u9$1...@lion.drogon.net...
>>
>>>I'd be tempted to suggest you invest in a good stainless steel flask
>>>- eg http://www.lifeventure.co.uk/stainless_steel/vacuum_flasks.shtml
>>
>>Oh yes! That's what we use now. SS flasks. Not that we take soup but
>>you could, I'd still suggest a separate one for soup.
>
>
> Why should a SS thermos be better than a glass one from the point of view of
> heat retention. We have one and I'd say that's it's definitely inferior to
> our glass ones for keeping things warm. They're also expensive and heavy in
> comparison.
SS is better than glass because you can drop kick it off a cliff, climb
down and still have a nice warm drink. I would hardly say that the few
grammes difference between a SS and glass Thermos is really going to
make that much difference.
[news]
I saw a stainless flask fall out of a moped riders haversack, bounce along the
road a few times before being squashed flat by an artic and that's probably
the only way a stainless flask could be damaged.
I also think that stainless flasks are the way to go for the OP. the two I have
keep water scalding hot for at least 12 hours, minimum, and I always pre
heat the flask with boiling water before filling, even if the final liquid to go
in the flask is boiling water.
matalan and wilko are just some of the stores which seem to have inexpensive
stainless flasks in stock, summer or winter and a (colective noun) of flasks is
far, far cheaper than his only other viable option: a trailer containing a 3Kw
genny a domestic kettle and one of these http://tinyurl.com/6zh28 ;-)
RT
S Viemeister
>
> The modern stainless steel ones are unbelievably efficient. I was proved
> wrong!
>
I was amazed, the first time I used my new stainless steel flask. My
coffee was _too hot to drink_, 6-8 hours after putting it in the flask.
Of course, I pre-heated the inside with boiling water before pouring in the
piping hot coffee.
A couple of years ago, I bought an insulated, lidded, travel mug from
Costco - it has a heating element of some sort, and plugs into a car
lighter outlet. I doubt the liquid would boil, but it certainly keeps
things very hot. I don't remember the manufacturer and have long since
chucked out the packaging, but I could look to see if there's something
stamped on the bottom. They were packed in sets of two (different
colours), and were amazingly inexpensive.
Sheila
Bob Mannix
"coffee pot" for £8.95 from
(beware, it's an addictive site!)
Unfortunately, these items have no image with them.
--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)
"Bob Mannix" <b1o...@mannix.org.uk> wrote in message
news:d07dp3$a7d$1...@blackmamba.itd.rl.ac.uk...
Mary Fisher
"doozer" <gra...@crazysquirrel.removethisbit.com> wrote in message
news:neGdnej0HZI...@eclipse.net.uk...
>
> Water at 95 degrees will make tea and soup just as well as water that has
> boiled / is boiling. Actually boiling the water in this situation is silly
> because you need to supply a tremendous amount of energy to overcame the
> hear of vaporization (40.7 KJ/mol) for no gain.
Yes - and the car windows steam up!
Mary
Mary Fisher
"Bob Mannix" <b1o...@mannix.org.uk> wrote in message
news:d07dp3$a7d$1...@blackmamba.itd.rl.ac.uk...
>> >
>>
>> The modern stainless steel ones are unbelievably efficient. I was proved
>> wrong!
>
> It is essential to preheat SS flasks by filling them with boiling water
> for
> 5 minutes before filling them (assuming you are keeping things hot!).
Yes, it helps. But we don't do it for as long as that.
> Get
> one with a valve top so you don't have to actually open it. In my
> experience
> (agreeing with Mary again - oh no)
Life's a bitch. Are you keeping count?
>
> There is also the added benefit (when walking) you can bang them on rocks
> and only dent them!
They acquire street credibility with dents :-)
Mary
>
>
Jeff
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kettle+12v+concealed+element&hl=en&lr=&cr=countryUK|countryGB&start=10&sa=N
Finds this :-
http://www.247electrical.co.uk/epages/twentyfourseven.storefront/EN/Product/MM9830?SOURCE=AW
Regards Jeff
btw - how is this diy related ?
Tim Downie
> matalan and wilko are just some of the stores which seem to have
> inexpensive stainless flasks in stock, summer or winter and a
> (colective noun) of flasks is far, far cheaper than his only other
> viable option: a trailer containing a 3Kw genny a domestic kettle and
> one of these http://tinyurl.com/6zh28 ;-)
Well if everyone is so convinced by the superiority of them, maybe I ought
to consider them. I do already have "one of those" btw. ;-)
Tim
Tim Downie
> You run too much :)
Too much?? Is that possible? ;-)
Tim
Phil Addison
I think you must mean this 12V 100W one
http://www.247electrical.co.uk/epages/twentyfourseven.storefront/4227550e0036fbf4273f0a020f010574/Product/View/MM9885
For the less electrically minded, 100W is almost the same consumption as
leaving your headlights on, being around 65Watts each.
Here's an immersion heater http://www.volkswest.co.uk/vwaccessories.html
(and a kettle).
Phil Addison
Coincidentally I did a test on my 1 litre one recently, and can confirm
what Mary says. This was a wide-necked Thermos (i.e. with a glass vacuum
flask in it). After that test my daughter decided to use it full of
initially boiling water to heat her baby bottles on a trip to Holland,
instead of the useless mothercare gadget I mentioned earlier.
Here's the results which plot an almost straight line on an excel log
chart. Measurements were with a thermocouple meter after inverting the
contents a couple of times before each measurement; the lid was opened
briefly each time to insert the thermocouple wire.
Date Time Elapsed Temp (deg C)
16/12/2004 17:57 0:00 98.0
16/12/2004 18:12 0:15 94.5
16/12/2004 18:43 0:46 93.0
16/12/2004 20:52 2:55 87.5
17/12/2004 00:29 6:32 79.0
17/12/2004 01:44 7:47 76.5
17/12/2004 02:13 8:16 76.0
17/12/2004 10:20 16:23 62.0
17/12/2004 13:20 19:23 59.0
17/12/2004 15:00 21:03 56.5
17/12/2004 16:50 22:53 55.0
17/12/2004 18:53 24:56 53.0
18/12/2004 01:20 31:23 48.0
18/12/2004 08:15 38:18 43.0
18/12/2004 11:08 41:11 41.0
18/12/2004 14:15 44:18 39.0
Bob Eager
wrote:
> I have no idea about cost but I believe outdoor sports shops sell a self
> heating gizmo for that sort of thing. I have a suspicion the heater
> comes integral with the food/drink, so your menu may be somewhat
> limited. I guess it works by allowing two suitable chemicals to mix
> together and generate heat when you break a seal.
The problem with these is that (a) they are expensive and (b) only raise
the temperature of the product by so many degrees above ambient. I
forget the figure but I never found it sufficient.
--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...dump Windows!
Tim Downie
> Finds this :-
> http://www.247electrical.co.uk/epages/twentyfourseven.storefront/EN/Product/MM9830?SOURCE=AW
>
> Regards Jeff
>
> btw - how is this diy related ?
And how does this answer my original question?
So far all you've done is post pointers to sources of electric kettles when
my original post was mostly about the merits of inverters (or otherwise) and
for recommedations for "good 12v kettles or electrically heated pans".
As to it's relevance to uk.d-i-y, I consider that the knowledge base
here with regards to the use of inverters and more general issues concerning
low voltage electrics as very extensive. Where else should I ask about the
use of inverters and hope to get practical knowledge based experience
relevant to someone living in the UK?
Tim
Tim Downie
> Tim Downie wrote:
>>
>> Why should a SS thermos be better than a glass one from the point of
>> view of heat retention. We have one and I'd say that's it's
>> definitely inferior to our glass ones for keeping things warm. They're
>> also expensive and heavy in comparison.
>
> SS is better than glass because you can drop kick it off a cliff,
> climb down and still have a nice warm drink.
Well if you're going to so *that*, then I guess you need SS. Personally,
I've never had that problem.
> I would hardly say that the few
> grammes difference between a SS and glass Thermos is really going to
> make that much difference.
I'm beginning to realise that we probably have a 1st generation one. It
weighs a bloody ton and I've never been impressed by it's performance.
Tim
Mary Fisher
>>> view of heat retention. We have one and I'd say that's it's
>>> definitely inferior to our glass ones for keeping things warm. They're
>>> also expensive and heavy in comparison.
>>
>> SS is better than glass because you can drop kick it off a cliff,
>> climb down and still have a nice warm drink.
>
> Well if you're going to so *that*, then I guess you need SS. Personally,
> I've never had that problem.
>
>> I would hardly say that the few
>> grammes difference between a SS and glass Thermos is really going to
>> make that much difference.
And it doesn't explain why SS thermos should be better than a glass one from
the point of
view of heat retention, which was your question.
>
> I'm beginning to realise that we probably have a 1st generation one. It
> weighs a bloody ton and I've never been impressed by it's performance.
Do give a new one a chance!
Mary
>
> Tim
>
Rod Hewitt
news:mkce21h4ifogou0i9...@4ax.com:
> Now, just how DIY do you want this? There is a copious supply of
> piping hot water in your vehicle cooling system. Surely
> someone/somewhere has rigged up a means of routing that through a mini
> heating coil which could be dunked in a steel flask heat up or keep
> hot the contents? I bet google has some designs already!
Got one on my car. Saab has had them as an option for years - just a little
copper coil embedded in what looks like rubber. Replaces a small section of
some suitable part of the engine coolant system.
Unfortunately for the OP, it is intended purely to warm the windscreen wash
sufficiently to avoid freezing... just a pleasantly warm trickle.
--
Rod
The Natural Philosopher
> As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
> race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.
>
> Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have to
> be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
> suggestions please) .
>
> Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
> where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle or
> might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
> reasonable/affordable.
>
> Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
> pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well as
> make coffee/tea etc.
>
> My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial battery.
> Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours say or should I
> invest in a second battery?
>
The best way is to tap into the engine cooling system or wrap a heat
exchanger round the exhaust pipe :-)
A 3KW kettle bolds in about 3 minutes, sso takes about 9KW minutes...or
0.15Kwh
at 12v that is about 12.5Ah - well within the capability of a car
battery. But not three times in a row with the engine off...
I'd say you will get away with it, BUT I'd invest in a cheap voltmeter
to tell you when to turn the engine back on...or you may find you can't...
> Tim
>
>
The Natural Philosopher
> As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
> race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.
>
> Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have to
> be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
> suggestions please) .
>
> Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
> where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle or
> might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
> reasonable/affordable.
>
> Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
> pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well as
> make coffee/tea etc.
>
> My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial battery.
> Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours say or should I
> invest in a second battery?
>
> Tim
>
>
i JUST REMEMBERD- i USED TO BREW UP WITH A CAL;OR GAS CAMPING STOVE IN
TEH BACK OF MY bEDFORD VAN.
The Natural Philosopher
> Mary Fisher wrote:
>
>>"Tim Downie" <timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>>
>>>Hours and hours isn't long enough. Hours and hours and hours would
>>>be more like it. I'll need a sustainable supply for at least 24
>>>hours.
>>
>>Have one for each support stop for each liquid. They're really not
>>expensive and are safer than any form of heating in a car. If they're
>>not opened they will keep liquids warm for well over 24 hours. Even
>>when opened they stay hot for a very long time.
>
>
> Well that may be your experience Mary but I've never found thermos flasks
> able to keep thing *hot* for that long. Warm yes, but there may be times I
> want something hot as opposed to warm, particularly later on. I'd really
> rather have the facility to heat things up on the go.
When driving? Or parked up?
May I suggest a few things
Flasks to keep WATER and SOUP as hot as possible to reduce extra heat
needed to boil.
Use of metal flasks strapped to parts of teh engine exhaust to achieve
similar.
Use a frigging camping gaz stove if parked up. Carry a sheet of
masterboard to put it on. I've cooked meals in the back of cars with these.
Otherwise, if on the move, use 12v immersion heater plugged into car
ciggy lighter socket.
>
> Thanks anyway.
>
> Tim
>
>
Cicero
> As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
> race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.
>
> Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have
to
> be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
> suggestions please) .
>
> Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
> where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle
or
> might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
> reasonable/affordable.
>
> Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
> pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well as
> make coffee/tea etc.
>
> My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial battery.
> Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours say or should
I
> invest in a second battery?
>
> Tim
>
>
If the flask ideas fail look at:
http://www.bullnet.co.uk/shops/test/inverter.htm
Be careful with all that hot liquid - most of my drinks seemed to go up my
nose unless I slowed to a walk!
Cic.
raden
<timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> writes
>Gordon Henderson wrote:
>> In article <38omrsF...@individual.net>,
>> Tim Downie <timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> distance race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption
>>> in the car.
>>>
>>> Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally
>>> have to be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or
>>> other naked flame suggestions please) .
>>
>> eg http://www.lifeventure.co.uk/stainless_steel/vacuum_flasks.shtml
>>
>> properly heated up in the morning, really do keep stuff hot for hours
>> and hours.
>
>like it. I'll need a sustainable supply for at least 24 hours.
>
--
geoff
raden
<timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> writes
OK, an inverter
100 Watts, say 80% efficiency, that means ~120 watts drawn, or 10 Amps
That's quite a lot of continuous current to draw from the ciggie lighter
>
Buy a generator and a tent
--
geoff
raden
Philosopher <A@b.c> writes
DID YOU REALLY ?
--
geoff
Mary Fisher
"raden" <ra...@kateda.org> wrote in message
news:gN5zvnbY...@ntlworld.com...
>>i JUST REMEMBERD- i USED TO BREW UP WITH A CAL;OR GAS CAMPING STOVE IN TEH
>>BACK OF MY bEDFORD VAN.
>
>
> DID YOU REALLY ?
:-)
Mary
>
>
> --
> geoff
Da...@chapelhouse.demon.co.uk
bvious.yahoo.co.uk> writes
>As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
>race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.
>
>Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have to
>be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
>suggestions please) .
>
>Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
>where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle or
>might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
>reasonable/affordable.
>
>Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
>pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well as
>make coffee/tea etc.
>
>My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial battery.
>Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours say or should I
>invest in a second battery?
>
>Tim
>
cheapest when I bought one, not tried to boil a kettle with it but
powered lots of other things, engine on and off, they are "intelligent"
and cut off if it detects that its getting to a point that the engine
won't start. MDS do a range from 80w up to 2000w.
--
David
mike ring
news:110988521...@damia.uk.clara.net:
>>
>>
> i JUST REMEMBERD- i USED TO BREW UP WITH A CAL;OR GAS CAMPING STOVE IN
> TEH BACK OF MY bEDFORD VAN.
Back in my (theological!!!) college days we used a primus in a biscuit tin,
which also doubled as a heater fro the prewar Morris 8
mike
mike ring
>>
>> btw - how is this diy related ?
>
> And how does this answer my original question?
>
>
> As to it's relevance to uk.d-i-y, I consider that the knowledge base
> here with regards to the use of inverters and more general issues
> concerning low voltage electrics as very extensive. Where else should
> I ask about the use of inverters and hope to get practical knowledge
> based experience relevant to someone living in the UK?
>
You shouldn't have risen to that one - a lot of us believe the more
esoteric the better, in this group, IMO, not much outside politics and
religion should be OT, (and some include *them*)
mike
Mary Fisher
"mike ring" <mike...@MICHAELbtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:Xns960EEA4827E88mi...@130.133.1.4...
But Tim did specify that this was a no-no ("Because of the potential of
severe midge attack, this may literally have to be done in the car with the
windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame suggestions please")
Mary
>
> mike
>
Pete C
<timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
>race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.
>
>Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have to
>be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
>suggestions please) .
Hi,
Are they so bad you can't put a stove outside on the ground and shut
the door til a kettle boils?
How about a couple of rectangular no-see-um screens that fit the front
windows when they are lowered 4 or 6", or run the fan on high when
using the stove, plus a £25 CO alarm from Argos which has a built in
meter.
cheers,
Pete.
John Stumbles
> Regarding things that plug into the cigar lighter, we bought a
> mothercare baby-bottle heater which turned out to be a 3" wide plastic
> strip with an (IIRC) about 50W flat strip heater embedded in it. You
> wrapped this round the bottle, and it took some 10-15 minutes to heat it
> to luke warm. That was with about 6 oz of milk in the bottle. Being
> external to the bottle it is very inefficient, but wrapping the lot in a
> towel helps, although the instructions forbid that for some reason.
Most mothers come already equipped with apparatus for dispensing baby
milk at the correct temperature. :-)
John Stumbles
> "Tim Downie" <timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:38omrsF...@individual.net...
>
>>As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
>>race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.
>>
>>Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have
>
> to
>
>>be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
>>suggestions please) .
>>
>>where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle
>
> or
>
>>might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
>>reasonable/affordable.
>>
>>Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
>>pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well as
>>make coffee/tea etc.
>>
>>My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial battery.
>>Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours say or should
>
> I
>
>>invest in a second battery?
>>
>>Tim
>>
>
>
bloody hell! - a 12V 750W 65A microwave:
http://www.caravanadditions.co.uk/acatalog/Electrical_Products.html
Let's see some numpty wire that up to a cigar lighter plug!
The Natural Philosopher
yes
The Natural Philosopher
Why not? run the car fan: That sucks air in and blows it out of vents
SOMEWHERE.
The mossies won't get past the pollen filters, and they can't crawl back
past the draught.
> Mary
>
>
>
>>mike
>>
>
>
>
use...@isbd.co.uk
amps. It's for a short time but I doubt the battery will like it.
The current you worked out is the current needed to take that much
power from the battery over an hour, if you can wait an hour for you
tea it might be OK!?
--
Chris Green
.
<%steve%@malloc.co.uk> writes
>Tim Downie <timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have to
>> be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
>> suggestions please) .
>
>You won't be able to run a 1.5kw kettle from an inverter because
>
>Your battery will go flat
No they detect when the battery is getting low and shut off
>Your cigar lighter fuse will blow
For heavier loads you connect straight to the battery with the supplied
leads
>You will burn out some wiring
See previous
>You will need a second auxilliary battery and suitable charge
>controllers.
only if the engine isn't running
>The alternator will never handle the load.
Yes it will, unless its a toy one
>Depending on how you try to do it of course.
>
--
David (who's run a welder from a car engine)
doozer
> As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
> race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.
>
> be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
> suggestions please) .
>
> where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle or
> might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
> reasonable/affordable.
>
> Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
> pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well as
> make coffee/tea etc.
>
> My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial battery.
> Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours say or should I
> invest in a second battery?
>
>
>
Of course you could just buy a couple of stonking great big SLAs (or
NiCads if you are feeling rich) and stick them in the boot. Some are
designed to take fairly deep and frequent discharges without damage.
Graham
Mary Fisher
"John Stumbles" <john.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:38pp7lF...@individual.net...
I'm glad somebody else said that!
Mary
mike ring
news:42279a9b$0$2653$4c56...@master.news.zetnet.net:
>>>>
>>>>
>>> i JUST REMEMBERD- i USED TO BREW UP WITH A CAL;OR GAS CAMPING STOVE
>>> IN TEH BACK OF MY bEDFORD VAN.
>>
>> Back in my (theological!!!) college days we used a primus in a
>> biscuit tin,
>> which also doubled as a heater fro the prewar Morris 8
>
> But Tim did specify that this was a no-no ("Because of the potential
> of severe midge attack, this may literally have to be done in the car
> with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame suggestions
> please")
>
Sorry about thread drift - I wasn't trying to reply to the OP as I've
nothing to input.
I was following up NP's post, only without Caps lock. I don't think his
contribution was entirely serious either.
Merely corroborative detail intended to add verisimilitude to an otherwise
bald and unconvincing narrative.
mike
Mary Fisher
"mike ring" <mike...@MICHAELbtinternet.com> wrote in message
> "Mary Fisher" <mary....@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in
> news:42279a9b$0$2653$4c56...@master.news.zetnet.net:
>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> i JUST REMEMBERD- i USED TO BREW UP WITH A CAL;OR GAS CAMPING STOVE
>>>> IN TEH BACK OF MY bEDFORD VAN.
>>>
>>> Back in my (theological!!!) college days we used a primus in a
>>> biscuit tin,
>>> which also doubled as a heater fro the prewar Morris 8
>>
>> But Tim did specify that this was a no-no ("Because of the potential
>> of severe midge attack, this may literally have to be done in the car
>> with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame suggestions
>> please")
>>
> Sorry about thread drift - I wasn't trying to reply to the OP as I've
> nothing to input.
I think the OP should stop running where there are midges or get another
slave.
>
> I was following up NP's post, only without Caps lock.
I realise that and it amused me :-)
>
> I don't think his
> contribution was entirely serious either.
Don't be too sure about that ...
> Merely corroborative detail intended to add verisimilitude to an otherwise
> bald and unconvincing narrative.
There's no answer to that - but do continue, I like it <G>
Mary
>
> mike
The Natural Philosopher
Thats about what the starter motor takes. ;-)
I never said Use a 3KW kettle. use a 500W immersion heater..
50-60A is OK on a battery.
>
> The current you worked out is the current needed to take that much
> power from the battery over an hour, if you can wait an hour for you
> tea it might be OK!?
>
I was doing battery depletion calcs, not peak current calcs.
500W or so is the practical limit for any _sustained_ drain from a car
battery.
The Natural Philosopher
> "Mary Fisher" <mary....@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in
> news:42279a9b$0$2653$4c56...@master.news.zetnet.net:
>
>
>>>>>
>>>>i JUST REMEMBERD- i USED TO BREW UP WITH A CAL;OR GAS CAMPING STOVE
>>>>IN TEH BACK OF MY bEDFORD VAN.
>>>
>>>Back in my (theological!!!) college days we used a primus in a
>>>biscuit tin,
>>>which also doubled as a heater fro the prewar Morris 8
>>
>>But Tim did specify that this was a no-no ("Because of the potential
>>of severe midge attack, this may literally have to be done in the car
>>with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame suggestions
>>please")
>>
>
> Sorry about thread drift - I wasn't trying to reply to the OP as I've
> nothing to input.
>
> I was following up NP's post, only without Caps lock. I don't think his
> contribution was entirely serious either.
Actually, it was.
It is perfectly possible to use a small camping gaz stive in a closed
vehicle, provided you do it on a fireproof surface, and have the vehicle
fan running.
The floor of an estate vehicle is as good as it gets.
Tim Downie
> It is perfectly possible to use a small camping gaz stive in a closed
> vehicle, provided you do it on a fireproof surface, and have the
> vehicle fan running.
>
> The floor of an estate vehicle is as good as it gets.
Hmm, good point. With the fan turned up full there's no shortage of through
draft. With the rear seats removed there's plenty of space to set up a
stove. Might reconsider that one.
Thanks.
Tim
Phil Addison
And if your beloved forgets to turn on the fan, or its not fast enough
....
OK for yourself, but to risk CO poisoning of another is not on.
Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me
Tim Downie
>
> And if your beloved forgets to turn on the fan, or its not fast enough
> ....
>
> OK for yourself, but to risk CO poisoning of another is not on.
Lets pretend for a moment that she's an intelligent adult capable of judging
the risks for herself. In fact, no pretending required.
Tim
Colin Blackburn
Yeah, but if she was that intelligent she'd be sat at home enjoying a
nice bottle of wine and a dvd instead of driving around Scotland
supporting you on some 24 hour Highland race! ;-)
Colin
Rob Morley
Addison" phi...@bigNOSPAMfoot.com says...
> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:07:47 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "Tim Downie"
> <timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> >
> > > It is perfectly possible to use a small camping gaz stive in a closed
> > > vehicle, provided you do it on a fireproof surface, and have the
> > > vehicle fan running.
> > >
> > > The floor of an estate vehicle is as good as it gets.
> >
> > Hmm, good point. With the fan turned up full there's no shortage of through
> > draft. With the rear seats removed there's plenty of space to set up a
> > stove. Might reconsider that one.
>
> And if your beloved forgets to turn on the fan, or its not fast enough
> ....
>
> OK for yourself, but to risk CO poisoning of another is not on.
>
Tim Downie
> Yeah, but if she was that intelligent she'd be sat at home enjoying a
> nice bottle of wine and a dvd instead of driving around Scotland
> supporting you on some 24 hour Highland race! ;-)
'Tis just a sign of her loving devotion. She just happens to be intelligent
*and* devoted.
(Please ignore any sounds of hysterical laughter in the backgorund).
Tim
[news]
so to recap, the OP needs the following:
a 3Kw generator
domestic kettle
a trailer
net curtain baghat to keep the wee beasties off his heed
a 'dip it in the liquid' element + lifetime of waiting
three (3) heavy duty 12V barreries
a voltage drop detector protector
a 3000W inverter
a gas burner
to remove the back seats
a heat exchanger device let into the cars cooling system
AND NOW A *fecking* CO detector !!!!111!
stainless.steel.flasks.
RT
Phil Addison
Delighted to hear it, so perhaps she'll veto the idea (which I
appreciate did not originate from you). Have a search for Peter Parry's
views on CO detectors before you rely on them for safety, and don't
forget the fire risk, which is probably the greater hazard.
A quick google threw up http://www.carbonmonoxidekills.com/ containing
this report from USA:
"Deaths from motor-vehicle-related unintentional carbon monoxide
poisoning ... 3) use of auxiliary fuel-burning heaters inside a
passenger compartment or in a camper ... describes the investigation of
deaths associated with multiple motor-vehicle-related CO poisonings ...
These findings indicate that deaths from motor-vehicle-related
unintentional CO poisonings increase during winter months and that death
rates from CO poisoning in stationary motor vehicles are highest in
states with colder average winter temperatures."
(... my abridging ...)
Phil
The Natural Philosopher
> On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:07:47 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "Tim Downie"
> <timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>
>>>It is perfectly possible to use a small camping gaz stive in a closed
>>>vehicle, provided you do it on a fireproof surface, and have the
>>>vehicle fan running.
>>>
>>>The floor of an estate vehicle is as good as it gets.
>>
>>Hmm, good point. With the fan turned up full there's no shortage of through
>>draft. With the rear seats removed there's plenty of space to set up a
>>stove. Might reconsider that one.
>
>
> And if your beloved forgets to turn on the fan, or its not fast enough
> ....
>
> OK for yourself, but to risk CO poisoning of another is not on.
You will be misted up and fugged up with H2O and CO2 long before the
stove starts to produce significant CO.
I have DONE THIS.
In fact and in practice. It works. Usually we left the back doors open.
In pouring and driving rain we kept the engine running and removed the
engine cover. No heater or fan on that van in those days. :-)
Failure to do either resulted in HUGE condensation. We even did that
too, for a quick cuppa parked up in torrential rain. We certainly didn't
die of CO posoning. It only takes a few minutes to boil a camping kettle.
Phil Addison
<A@b.c> wrote:
> Phil Addison wrote:
>
> >
> > And if your beloved forgets to turn on the fan, or its not fast enough
> > ....
> >
> > OK for yourself, but to risk CO poisoning of another is not on.
> You will be misted up and fugged up with H2O and CO2 long before the
> stove starts to produce significant CO.
But she is expected to stay inside until the soup is hot.
> I have DONE THIS.
Is that a recommendation or a warning?
> In fact and in practice. It works. Usually we left the back doors open.
But the spec for this discussion is that all the doors and windows stay
shut to keep out mosquitos.
> In pouring and driving rain we kept the engine running and removed the
> engine cover. No heater or fan on that van in those days. :-)
>
> Failure to do either resulted in HUGE condensation. We even did that
> too, for a quick cuppa parked up in torrential rain. We certainly didn't
> die of CO posoning. It only takes a few minutes to boil a camping kettle.
How long does it take to get brain damage from CO?
Old Bill
> As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
> race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.
>
> be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
>
> Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
> where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle or
> might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
> reasonable/affordable.
>
> Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
> pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well as
> make coffee/tea etc.
>
> My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial battery.
> Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours say or should I
> invest in a second battery?
>
>
I don't have direct experience of this but surely its a non-starter?
Even running a 12v car fridge for a few hours will flatten a car battery
if the engine is not running.
Whats the average car battery, 50Ah?
times 12 volts = 600watt-hours
Say 3Kw kettle boils in 10 minutes, thats 500watt-hours
Oh dear, battery practically flat
John Stumbles
I knew you'd like it, Mary!
(I think SWMBO would too: she's an ardent - maybe even militant - and
practicing La-Leche Leaguer)
mike ring
news:4ptg21hb3ghuphi2l...@4ax.com:
>
> How long does it take to get brain damage from CO?
>
It never did me any have you got any ride tandem
mike
Bob Eager
> Tim Downie wrote:
> > As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
> > race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.
> >
> > Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have to
> > be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
> > suggestions please) .
> >
> > Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
> > where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle or
> > might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
> > reasonable/affordable.
> >
> > Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
> > pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well as
> > make coffee/tea etc.
> >
> > My car's a diesel people carrier with a reasonably substantial battery.
> > Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours say or should I
> > invest in a second battery?
> >
> > Tim
> >
> I don't have direct experience of this but surely its a non-starter?
LOL!!!!
> Even running a 12v car fridge for a few hours will flatten a car battery
> if the engine is not running.
--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...dump Windows!
The Natural Philosopher
and don't
> forget the fire risk, which is probably the greater hazard.
The greatest risk is scalding, in cars with soft susponsion and large
mobile occupants.
The Natural Philosopher
> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:49:31 +0000, in uk.d-i-y The Natural Philosopher
> <A@b.c> wrote:
>
>
>>Phil Addison wrote:
>>
>>
>>>And if your beloved forgets to turn on the fan, or its not fast enough
>>>....
>>>
>>>OK for yourself, but to risk CO poisoning of another is not on.
>
>
>
>>You will be misted up and fugged up with H2O and CO2 long before the
>>stove starts to produce significant CO.
>
>
> But she is expected to stay inside until the soup is hot.
>
>
>>I have DONE THIS.
>
>
> Is that a recommendation or a warning?
>
>
>>In fact and in practice. It works. Usually we left the back doors open.
>
>
> But the spec for this discussion is that all the doors and windows stay
> shut to keep out mosquitos.
>
>
>>In pouring and driving rain we kept the engine running and removed the
>>engine cover. No heater or fan on that van in those days. :-)
>>
>>Failure to do either resulted in HUGE condensation. We even did that
>>too, for a quick cuppa parked up in torrential rain. We certainly didn't
>>die of CO posoning. It only takes a few minutes to boil a camping kettle.
>
>
> How long does it take to get brain damage from CO?
Dickhead. At the concentrations produced by a camping stove, long after
the CO2 level so bloody high, and the H2O level is so bloody high, that
the fucking little gas cylinder will be exahausted. And the car will be
dripping wet.
It teaks 5 mnutes to boil a kettle. Do the calcs yourself and work out
how much oxygen it uses.
The Natural Philosopher
But it doesn't. It boils in about a minute at 3Kw. Less if half full.
Andy Wade
> Water at 95 degrees will make tea and soup just as well as water that
> has boiled / is boiling. Actually boiling the water in this situation is
> silly because you need to supply a tremendous amount of energy to
> overcame the hear of vaporization (40.7 KJ/mol) for no gain.
Bzzzt, you only need to bring the water up to 100 deg., not boil it all
away. The energy needed to 'bring to the boil' is very little more than
you need to get to 95 deg.
--
Andy
Dave Plowman (News)
Tim Downie <timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
> where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle
> or might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
> reasonable/affordable.
> Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
> pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well
> as make coffee/tea etc.
There's no point in inverting 12 volts to 230 to heat something. And a 2kW
invertor - needed for the smallest domestic kettle - would be *very*
expensive, and would draw the best part of 200 amps.
I'm not sure what 12 volt kettles are available, but be prepared for them
to be very slow in operation. Unless plugged direct to the battery. One
which works off the cigar lighter type take off is restricted to about 10
amps - so about 120 watts. A domestic kettle is as I said about 2000
watts, so it will take 20 times longer to boil the same amount of water.
Personally, I'd use thermos flasks.
--
*24 hours in a day ... 24 beers in a case ... coincidence? *
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
The Natural Philosopher
One liter is 1000cc is 1000gm which takes 1000 calories per degree C.
Lets start at 20C and get 80C rise, so 80,000 calories.
mutiply by 4.2 and its 336KJ
or 336 kilowatt seconds.
At 12v thats 280,000 amp seconds, or 7.8 Ah
So it takes 7,8 ampere hours out of a 12v battery to bring one liter of
water to the boil from 20C starting point. Excluding losses of course.
One liter is at least 6 cups of coffee, or 4 mugs.
So with a 50A/h battery there's enough energy to make about 28 mugs of
coffee.
The 7.8A/h that each litre takes to boil is rpelaced by charging the
battery (typically at about 10A average, more when nearly flat up to
maybe 30A) in about 45 minutes of running.
Now for gas stoves. It takes about 30 times the volume of air to
properly burn a given volume of butane gas (less for propane) and the
calorfic value of butane is 21000 BTU per lb, and a lb of butane is 6.5
cu ft of gas, and so its about 3.23 KBTU per cu ft of gas, or about 100
BTU per cubic foot of air used.
A BTU is roughly a kilowatt second, and we need 336 of those to boil the
kettle, so its between 3 and 4 cu ft of air needed to do that.
I reckon teh average peole carrier atea is 7 x5 x 3ft roughly, so about
100 cu ft. So about 3-4% of the oxygen is used by the stove. Assuming
zero ventilation.
Of course the heat is nowhere near 100% going into teh kettel, but even
so, it doesn't take much ventilation to feed a small stove for a few
minutes.
Dave Plowman (News)
. <Da...@chapelhouse.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >Your battery will go flat
> No they detect when the battery is getting low and shut off
But this is normally to protect the battery from being run flat, which
lead acid types don't like. Are you *sure* there would still be enough
charge left to start the car?
> >Your cigar lighter fuse will blow
> For heavier loads you connect straight to the battery with the supplied
> leads
Then you've got the problem of the car not being 'sealed' to the outside,
as the OP wanted. Unless you do some serious re-wiring.
> >You will burn out some wiring
> See previous
> >You will need a second auxilliary battery and suitable charge
> >controllers.
> only if the engine isn't running
> >The alternator will never handle the load.
> Yes it will, unless its a toy one
Few are more than 100 amps. So say about a kilowatt. A domestic kettle
takes twice this. And a 2kW invertor will cost serious money. Better to
tow a generator. ;-)
> >Depending on how you try to do it of course.
--
*If we weren't meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?
doozer
The point I was trying to make was that you only need to make the water
(very) hot. Continuing to heat the water to its boiling point (as per
the scientific definition) is a waste of energy. In fact tea made with
water that hasn't been boiled tastes better according to many people so
you get a double reward.
Lobster
> Well I've never broken a thermos so that aspect doesn't weigh heavily on my
> mind. ;-)
Oh I have, once (deliberately) many years ago.
My little sister had got her gerbil stuck inside it...
David
Owain
Thank you for sharing that with us.
I am not sure whether to worry more about the health of the gerbil or
the sanity of your sister.
Owain
Bob Eager
wrote:
I understand that there are worse places for a gerbil to get stuck...
John Stumbles
> In article <38omrsF...@individual.net>,
> Tim Downie <timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
>>where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle
>>or might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
>>reasonable/affordable.
>
>
>>Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
>>pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well
>>as make coffee/tea etc.
>
>
> There's no point in inverting 12 volts to 230 to heat something. And a 2kW
> invertor - needed for the smallest domestic kettle - would be *very*
> expensive, and would draw the best part of 200 amps.
>
> I'm not sure what 12 volt kettles are available, but be prepared for them
> to be very slow in operation. Unless plugged direct to the battery. One
> which works off the cigar lighter type take off is restricted to about 10
> amps - so about 120 watts. A domestic kettle is as I said about 2000
> watts, so it will take 20 times longer to boil the same amount of water.
>
> Personally, I'd use thermos flasks.
If the OP really goes off running in the midge-infested wastelands of
the north with long-suffering spouse in tow on a whim, without time to
fill a couple of flasks before he goes (though presumably time to take
some cold water and cold soup :-) then he could do with something more
than the standard wimpy cigar-lighter 12V immersion heater. How about
(a) fitting inside the car a socket of decent current rating wired back
to the alternator or battery terminals in heavy gauge wire (b) some sort
of resistive heater to connect up to this socket. If the heating element
were about 0.5 ohm, taking 30A at 14-15V (with the engine running)
giving a power of about 400W then you could boil a cup or two of water
in a reasonably short time (I'll leave calculation of the exact figures
as an exercise for the reader :-). Question is how to make the element?
What's the resistivity of stainless steel? Would a length of thin s/s
strip bent into a U shape do it? Or a coil of thin s/s tube? Or some
sort of closed end tube (like a test tube) with a heating element
inside, embedded in ceramic (how?) or maybe tube packed with carbon
making the resistance element (would it be low enough R?) and central
electrode connecting to it?
Come on you d-i-y-ers!
Rod Hewitt
> Come on you d-i-y-ers!
Quicklime and water?
--
Rod
nick smith
Long mains extension lead and 3 kW kettle ?
Nick
"Rod Hewitt" <spam....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9610DF00665...@130.133.1.4...
Phil Addison
<A@b.c> wrote:
> Phil Addison wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:49:31 +0000, in uk.d-i-y The Natural Philosopher
> > <A@b.c> wrote:
> >
>>You will be misted up and fugged up with H2O and CO2 long before the
>>stove starts to produce significant CO.
> >
>>I have DONE THIS.
[snip]
> > How long does it take to get brain damage from CO?
>
> Dickhead. At the concentrations produced by a camping stove, long after
> the CO2 level so bloody high, and the H2O level is so bloody high, that
> the fucking little gas cylinder will be exahausted. And the car will be
> dripping wet.
>
> It teaks 5 mnutes to boil a kettle. Do the calcs yourself and work out
> how much oxygen it uses.
Missed the point did you, tsk tsk.
Phil
Da...@chapelhouse.demon.co.uk
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> writes
>In article <38omrsF...@individual.net>,
> Tim Downie <timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> Would it be worth investing in a reasonably substantial inverter (and
>> where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle
>> or might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
>> reasonable/affordable.
>
>> Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
>> pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well
>> as make coffee/tea etc.
>
>There's no point in inverting 12 volts to 230 to heat something. And a 2kW
>invertor - needed for the smallest domestic kettle - would be *very*
>expensive, and would draw the best part of 200 amps.
>
>I'm not sure what 12 volt kettles are available, but be prepared for them
>to be very slow in operation. Unless plugged direct to the battery. One
>which works off the cigar lighter type take off is restricted to about 10
>amps - so about 120 watts. A domestic kettle is as I said about 2000
>watts, so it will take 20 times longer to boil the same amount of water.
>
>Personally, I'd use thermos flasks.
>
--
David
Da...@chapelhouse.demon.co.uk
<rd...@spamcop.net> writes
--
David
Andrew Sinclair
<john.s...@ntlworld.com> writes
>
>bloody hell! - a 12V 750W 65A microwave:
>
>http://www.caravanadditions.co.uk/acatalog/Electrical_Products.html
>
>Let's see some numpty wire that up to a cigar lighter plug!
I take your 12V microwave and raise you one toasted sandwich maker...
http://www.cotswold-outdoor.com/Cat/60467
I'll get my anorak and bobble hat...
Andy
--
Andrew Sinclair http://www.smellycat.org
Pete C
wrote:
>Phil Addison wrote:
>
>>>Failure to do either resulted in HUGE condensation. We even did that
>>>too, for a quick cuppa parked up in torrential rain. We certainly didn't
>>>die of CO posoning. It only takes a few minutes to boil a camping kettle.
>>
>>
>> How long does it take to get brain damage from CO?
>
>Dickhead. At the concentrations produced by a camping stove, long after
>the CO2 level so bloody high, and the H2O level is so bloody high, that
>the fucking little gas cylinder will be exahausted. And the car will be
>dripping wet.
>
>It teaks 5 mnutes to boil a kettle. Do the calcs yourself and work out
>how much oxygen it uses.
Hi,
I think the problem is dozing off, and not waking up.
How much gas is needed to consume all the oxygen in a car to the point
where dangerous levels of CO are produced?
I'd guess that with a new largish picnic stove cylinder it's a strong
possibility.
cheers,
Pete.
Nicholas
weather...
Nicholas
--
Nicholas Buttle - Quality Joinery and Cabinet Making
http://www.nbjoinery.net
--
"Pete C" <pete...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c3om211vis32eo5sa...@4ax.com...
David W.E. Roberts
"Tim Downie" <timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:38omrsF...@individual.net...
> As part of her duties as my back-up team when I'm running a long distance
> race, my wife may need to boil up stuff for my consumption in the car.
>
> Because of the potential of severe midge attack, this may literally have
to
> be done in the car with the windows closed (so no gas or other naked flame
> suggestions please) .
>
> where's the cheapest source for these) that can supply a standard kettle
or
> might a smaller one powering a 1kw caravan type kettle be more
> reasonable/affordable.
>
> Alternatively, are the any good 12V kettles or other electrically heated
> pans worth considering. We will probably want to warm up soup as well as
> make coffee/tea etc.
>
> Would this cope with boiling a kettle every couple of hours say or should
I
> invest in a second battery?
A bit late to join the fun, but:
(1) Esso stations are doing a deal on 1 litre SS flasks at the moment -
about £2.75 each IIRC.
If you are worried about the flasks cooling down then pack them in a
cardboard box with a blanket or similar for insulation.
(2) I have a Halfords electric kettle which will boil water eventually (not
quite as fast as an average camping stove - I tried it out in the Lake
District and was not overwhelmed).
I also didn't read the instructions properly (only use with the engine
running) and ended up flattening the battery and having to send for an RAC
man to give me a jump start (I didn't explainn how the battery came to be
flat).
This was about 10 years ago so I don't know if they still do the kettle,
however you have been given plenty of URLs for similar products.
(3) Assuming you only want the drink to be comfortably hot then the DIY
route would probably be to make an external heating coil out of 10mm copper
pipe with an insulating jacket and space in the middle for a ceramic mug,
then plumb this into the hot water feed for the car heater (which should
already come through the bulkhead). However the car kettle and thermos
flasks in an insulate box are both much easier and should be effective
enough.
(4) Be a caring and supportive partner for your long suffering wife and hire
a camper van so that her time spent supporting you can be relatively
comfortable. She gets a fridge, cooker (to heat your drinks and soup), midge
proofing, a bed, and loads of other comforts. With a bit of commecial acumen
she could also provide hot food and drink for other competitors and
contribute to the cost of the camper :-)
Cheers
Dave R
No Spam
>In fact tea made with
>water that hasn't been boiled tastes better according to many people so
>you get a double reward.
Have you got a source to substantiate such a statement?
--
No Spam
>Now, just how DIY do you want this? There is a copious supply of piping
>hot water in your vehicle cooling system. Surely someone/somewhere has
>rigged up a means of routing that through a mini heating coil which
>could be dunked in a steel flask heat up or keep hot the contents? I bet
>google has some designs already!
Just look up "calorifier" - boats use them all the time for hot water
supplies.
--
Rob Morley
nos...@dial.pipex.com says...
something to do with oxygen in solution? I don't think actually
bringing it to the boil makes much difference. And you should of
course always pour the milk in the cup first, then the tea. Unless
you make it the Indian way by boiling everything in a saucepan for a
few minutes :-)
Mary Fisher
"Rob Morley" <nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c9670071...@news.individual.net...
Or don't add anything, that's the way we drink tea.
Mary