Fibre

[Tim Lamb]

Whoopee!

The poles in our lane have sprouted a fibre optic feed!

How long does the final connection usually take/how soon do I have to
start worrying about telephone connections?
--
Tim Lamb

[Adrian]

In message <opjKzQBg...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>, Tim Lamb
<t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> writes

If our experience is anything to go by, you'd be advise not to hold your
breathe.

Several years ago, the pole outside my house sprouted various bits of
kit for fibre connections. However, according to OpenReach, I'm not due
to get it until Dec 2026 (with the additional information that they are
"rolling out Full Fibre to 25 million people across the UK by 2025").
That said, several of the neighbours have gone full fibre, but they are
using ISPs that only use OR's poles.

Adrian.
--
To Reply :
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For a better method of access, please see:

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[The Natural Philosopher]

I think its all optional right now but in your case simply ask your ISP
when you can have it.

They *should* organise you a BT style phone socket like the landline
with the same number that 'just works'...



--
“It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
authorities are wrong.”

― Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 20/02/2024 19:06, Adrian wrote:
> In message <opjKzQBg...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>, Tim Lamb
> <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> writes
>> Whoopee!
>>
>> The poles in our lane have sprouted a fibre optic feed!
>>
>> How long does the final connection usually take/how soon do I have to
>> start worrying about telephone connections?
>
> If our experience is anything to go by, you'd be advise not to hold your
> breathe.
>
> Several years ago, the pole outside my house sprouted various bits of
> kit for fibre connections.  However, according to OpenReach, I'm not due
> to get it until Dec 2026 (with the additional information that they are
> "rolling out Full Fibre to 25 million people across the UK by 2025").
> That said, several of the neighbours have gone full fibre, but they are
> using ISPs that only use OR's poles.
>
> Adrian.

I got mine about 6 weeks after the poles went up and they had tested it all.

Keep asking the ISP

[David Wade]

On 20/02/2024 17:55, Tim Lamb wrote:

> Whoopee!
>
> The poles in our lane have sprouted a fibre optic feed!
>

Congratulations.

> How long does the final connection usually take/how soon do I have to
> start worrying about telephone connections?

It was about 3-4 months I think before it was available on my street.

Not sure why you would want to worry, but initially the main impact will
be that you may find it hard to change supplier and retain a POTS service.

Note the removal of POTS is not directly to FTTP roll out, so the plan
is to move EVERYONE to VOIP by the end of next year, so even if you have
FTTC or traditional ADSL the plan is to move the phone service to a VOIP
service by the end of 2025.

Dave

[Theo]

Have you heard any noises locally about a fibre deployment?

These days Openreach will install fibre if you have a development site of 2
or more properties. That means you may see fibre on a pole route that
services a new build site, but doesn't mean they will fit fibre to the
houses with existing connections any time soon. If your lane happens to
have (had) a building site along it, that might be the reason.

You can also use the BT Checker to see what they say for your property:
https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/

Theo

[Adrian]

In message <ur2uk0$2ld6t$3...@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> writes

>On 20/02/2024 19:06, Adrian wrote:
>> In message <opjKzQBg...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>, Tim Lamb
>><t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> writes
>>> Whoopee!
>>>
>>> The poles in our lane have sprouted a fibre optic feed!
>>>
>>> How long does the final connection usually take/how soon do I have
>>>to start worrying about telephone connections?
>> If our experience is anything to go by, you'd be advise not to hold
>>your breathe.
>> Several years ago, the pole outside my house sprouted various bits
>>of kit for fibre connections.  However, according to OpenReach, I'm
>>not due to get it until Dec 2026 (with the additional information that
>>they are "rolling out Full Fibre to 25 million people across the UK by
>>2025"). That said, several of the neighbours have gone full fibre, but

>>using ISPs that only use OR's poles.
>> Adrian.
>
>I got mine about 6 weeks after the poles went up and they had tested it all.
>
>Keep asking the ISP
>

I'm not in any rush to get FTTP, my current provision is more than
enough for my requirements. I was asking out of curiosity, but the
point was that just because there appears to be the ability to provide
fibre, you might not be able to get it easily.

Adrian

[Tim Lamb]

In message <ur2uk0$2ld6t$3...@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> writes

>On 20/02/2024 19:06, Adrian wrote:
>> In message <opjKzQBg...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>, Tim Lamb
>><t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> writes
>>> Whoopee!
>>>
>>> The poles in our lane have sprouted a fibre optic feed!
>>>
>>> How long does the final connection usually take/how soon do I have
>>>to start worrying about telephone connections?
>> If our experience is anything to go by, you'd be advise not to hold
>>your breathe.
>> Several years ago, the pole outside my house sprouted various bits
>>of kit for fibre connections.  However, according to OpenReach, I'm
>>not due to get it until Dec 2026 (with the additional information
>>that they are "rolling out Full Fibre to 25 million people across the
>>UK by 2025"). That said, several of the neighbours have gone full
>>fibre, but they are using ISPs that only use OR's poles.
>> Adrian.
>
>I got mine about 6 weeks after the poles went up and they had tested it all.
>
>Keep asking the ISP

Plusnet do not make asking questions easy! The providers advertising on
the *speed check* sites offer a range of predicted speeds/costs prior to
the service being available!

--
Tim Lamb

[Tim Lamb]

In message <ur316g$2lmjr$1...@dont-email.me>, David Wade
<g4...@dave.invalid> writes

I didn't pay much attention when VOIP was discussed earlier. I gathered
a mains power failure would shut down the service without some UPS
backup.

No emergency call arrangements here and we both use mobile phones so not
a huge issue but I wondered how our multi handset Panasonic system will
fare.
>

--
Tim Lamb

[Tim Lamb]

In message <ur2uig$2ld6t$2...@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> writes

>On 20/02/2024 17:55, Tim Lamb wrote:
>> Whoopee!
>> The poles in our lane have sprouted a fibre optic feed!
>> How long does the final connection usually take/how soon do I have
>>to start worrying about telephone connections?
>
>I think its all optional right now but in your case simply ask your ISP
>when you can have it.
>
>They *should* organise you a BT style phone socket like the landline
>with the same number that 'just works'...

Assuming this is FTTP and they have just replaced my incoming cable, can
they use that and the existing outlet?

--
Tim Lamb

[Tim Lamb]

In message <8Nn*Zu...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo
<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes

>Tim Lamb <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Whoopee!
>>
>> The poles in our lane have sprouted a fibre optic feed!
>>
>> How long does the final connection usually take/how soon do I have to
>> start worrying about telephone connections?
>
>Have you heard any noises locally about a fibre deployment?

No, but I got a hint from an Openreach engineer last month that
something might be in the wind.

>
>These days Openreach will install fibre if you have a development site of 2
>or more properties. That means you may see fibre on a pole route that
>services a new build site, but doesn't mean they will fit fibre to the
>houses with existing connections any time soon. If your lane happens to
>have (had) a building site along it, that might be the reason.

We put 4 houses in an agricultural barn a few years back.

>
>You can also use the BT Checker to see what they say for your property:
>https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/

Nothing available according to that site.

--
Tim Lamb

[John Rumm]

On 20/02/2024 17:55, Tim Lamb wrote:

In our case it was a few months... however they might be getting
batter/faster at it now :-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[SteveW]

On 20/02/2024 19:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 20/02/2024 19:06, Adrian wrote:
>> In message <opjKzQBg...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>, Tim Lamb
>> <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> writes
>>> Whoopee!
>>>
>>> The poles in our lane have sprouted a fibre optic feed!
>>>
>>> How long does the final connection usually take/how soon do I have to
>>> start worrying about telephone connections?
>>
>> If our experience is anything to go by, you'd be advise not to hold
>> your breathe.
>>
>> Several years ago, the pole outside my house sprouted various bits of
>> kit for fibre connections.  However, according to OpenReach, I'm not
>> due to get it until Dec 2026 (with the additional information that
>> they are "rolling out Full Fibre to 25 million people across the UK by
>> 2025"). That said, several of the neighbours have gone full fibre, but
>> they are using ISPs that only use OR's poles.
>>
>> Adrian.
>
> I got mine about 6 weeks after the poles went up and they had tested it
> all.
>
> Keep asking the ISP

As they were putting fibre onto the existing poles here, about 3 weeks
ago, they guys doing it told me that it should be available in about 6
weeks - so that fits with your experience. The websites show it as being
done in our area by Dec 2026, so I assume that if a single date to cover
the wider area and each area will be changed over as soon as it is ready.

In our case, we are with Virgin, so OpenReach FTTP is a bargaining chip
to bring the price down - or if Virgin won't move enough, we actually
could switch over.

[John Rumm]

Not unless they installed FTTP - if it was a like for like replacement,
then it might just have been newer copper.

[SteveW]

On 20/02/2024 21:18, Tim Lamb wrote:

IIRC, the fibre must be fed to an "ONT" and then a router (or a router
with an in-built ONT) and the phone connection will be taken from the
back of the router. So positioning of the fibre coming into the
premises, the ONT/Router, your netwrok switch, power sockets and the
extension wiring all matter.

[John Rumm]

On 20/02/2024 21:26, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <ur316g$2lmjr$1...@dont-email.me>, David Wade
> <g4...@dave.invalid> writes
>> On 20/02/2024 17:55, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>> Whoopee!
>>>  The poles in our lane have sprouted a fibre optic feed!
>>>
>>
>> Congratulations.
>>
>>> How long does the final connection usually take/how soon do I have to
>>> start worrying about telephone connections?
>>
>> It was about 3-4 months I think before it was available on my street.
>>
>> Not sure why you would want to worry, but initially the main impact
>> will be that you may find it hard to change supplier and retain a POTS
>> service.
>>
>> Note the removal of POTS is not directly to FTTP roll out, so the plan
>> is to move EVERYONE to VOIP by the end of next year, so even if you
>> have FTTC or traditional ADSL the plan is to move the phone service to
>> a VOIP service by the end of 2025.
>
> I didn't pay much attention when VOIP was discussed earlier.

a summary of much of it here:

https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Telephones,_analogue_to_digital_conversion

> I gathered
> a mains power failure would shut down the service without some UPS backup.

Yup. (as households that only have DECT phones have found)

> No emergency call arrangements here and we both use mobile phones so not
> a huge issue but I wondered how our multi handset Panasonic system will
> fare.

Ultimately you should arrive at the point where you have something that
looks like a phone socket, and things you plug into it will think they
are connected to a phone line. They will make and receive calls in the
same way.

(in addition you will also have the option of using IP phones, soft
phones, and cloud based PABX systems as well if you want)

[John Rumm]

Might be worth seeing if there is a "superfast" web site for your area.
Ours is here:

https://www.superfastessex.org/get-connected/broadband/interactive-map/

and it has an interactive map that shows what coverage each property has
and at what stage upgrades are planned (if they are planned!)

[Chris Green]

Months, years, .... We've had fibre on the poles outside our house
for several years now but no offers to us. Houses at the end of our
road have fibre offered to them though.

--
Chris Green
·

[Tim Lamb]

In message <ur38gi$2n8a2$4...@dont-email.me>, SteveW
<st...@walker-family.me.uk> writes

Hmm. For convenience of internal wiring and best wi-fi position, I
pre-fitted a length of standard phone cable through our loft areas and
*sweetened* the original installer to use that for the final connection.
Be very awkward if the fibre is terminated at the gable or just run down
the outside wall.
>

--
Tim Lamb

[Tim Lamb]

In message <ur388o$2n6k2$1...@dont-email.me>, John Rumm
<see.my.s...@nowhere.null> writes

>On 20/02/2024 17:55, Tim Lamb wrote:
>> Whoopee!
>> The poles in our lane have sprouted a fibre optic feed!
>> How long does the final connection usually take/how soon do I have
>>to start worrying about telephone connections?
>
>In our case it was a few months... however they might be getting
>batter/faster at it now :-)

I don't suppose we will be first in the lane so I can learn from the
others.
The obvious location for the new router is my office as that is directly
below the existing cable termination. Internal data cabling is all
ducted under plaster but re-positioning the Netgear switches is
possible. Piss poor location for wi-fi distribution though.
>
>

--
Tim Lamb

[Tim Lamb]

In message <hppgak-...@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, Chris Green <c...@isbd.net>
writes

No real rush now my phone line has been repaired. In some ways I'd be
happier to not have my TV screen cluttered with intrusive video offers!
>

--
Tim Lamb

[Tim Lamb]

In message <ur38v4$2ni32$1...@dont-email.me>, John Rumm
<see.my.s...@nowhere.null> writes

Ok John. That's clear enough.

Thanks
>

--
Tim Lamb

[Theo]

Tim Lamb <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Hmm. For convenience of internal wiring and best wi-fi position, I
> pre-fitted a length of standard phone cable through our loft areas and
> *sweetened* the original installer to use that for the final connection.
> Be very awkward if the fibre is terminated at the gable or just run down
> the outside wall.

On Openreach fibre you can pay £40 for a 'deluxe installation' (can't
remember exactly what they call it) that includes a good length of interior
cabling. They still want an external wall box at ground floor level (to
terminate the street fibre and allow techs to access) so there would be a
cable run down the outside, but the deluxe install means they'll run cables
from there internally to where you want your ONT and/or router.

Theo

[David Wade]

On 20/02/2024 21:26, Tim Lamb wrote:

> In message <ur316g$2lmjr$1...@dont-email.me>, David Wade
> <g4...@dave.invalid> writes
>> On 20/02/2024 17:55, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>> Whoopee!
>>>  The poles in our lane have sprouted a fibre optic feed!
>>>
>>
>> Congratulations.
>>
>>> How long does the final connection usually take/how soon do I have to
>>> start worrying about telephone connections?
>>
>> It was about 3-4 months I think before it was available on my street.
>>
>> Not sure why you would want to worry, but initially the main impact
>> will be that you may find it hard to change supplier and retain a POTS
>> service.
>>
>> Note the removal of POTS is not directly to FTTP roll out, so the plan
>> is to move EVERYONE to VOIP by the end of next year, so even if you
>> have FTTC or traditional ADSL the plan is to move the phone service to
>> a VOIP service by the end of 2025.
>
> I didn't pay much attention when VOIP was discussed earlier. I gathered
> a mains power failure would shut down the service without some UPS backup.
>

If your only landline is via the Panasonic below, you are already in
that situation

> No emergency call arrangements here and we both use mobile phones so not
> a huge issue but I wondered how our multi handset Panasonic system will
> fare.
>>
>

I have ZEN so a different router, but I just plugged my Panasonic into
the router POTS socket and all works fine.

Dave

[Theo]

Tim Lamb <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> No real rush now my phone line has been repaired. In some ways I'd be
> happier to not have my TV screen cluttered with intrusive video offers!

Not sure that follows... speed of internet doesn't affect ads on your TV.
But a good rule of thumb is to never connect a smart TV to the internet:
makers sell them at a loss and make a profit by spying on your viewing
habits and sending you ads. Better to use a third party box like an Apple
TV [*] and connect via HDMI.

Theo

[*] Apple are better than the others, Nvidia Shield comes out well too:
https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/categories/streaming-players/

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 20/02/2024 21:14, Tim Lamb wrote:
>> Keep asking the ISP
>
> Plusnet do not make asking questions easy! The providers advertising on
> the *speed check* sites offer a range of predicted speeds/costs prior to
> the service being available!

Well ask some other ISP. There is no especial reason to continue to use
one that makes life harder.

--
"Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have
forgotten your aim."

George Santayana

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 20/02/2024 21:18, Tim Lamb wrote:

The could but they wont.

They will stick the fibre termination kit to wherever is most convenient
for them, not for you. On an outside wall near a mains socket.

That will have an Ethernet socket on it that will connect to your router
and that will most likely have a phone socket on it as well.

Its up to you to provide Ethernet wiring to wherever your existing phone
and router setup is.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 20/02/2024 22:18, SteveW wrote:
> IIRC, the fibre must be fed to an "ONT" and then a router (or a router
> with an in-built ONT)

These do not exist in the UK

> and the phone connection will be taken from the
> back of the router. So positioning of the fibre coming into the
> premises, the ONT/Router, your netwrok switch, power sockets and the
> extension wiring all matter.

See my installation...

http://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?album=FTTP%20installation

That shows how it all firs together. My router has VOIP sockets on it
that feed the PABX, as well as an existing incoming copper land line
spliced off the fibre.

--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Not cables. Fibre.

The ONT connects to the fibre WITH fibre.

I suspect the deluxe is to add (external)?) Ethernet to where the
incoming copper used to go.

I don't think they want any fibre running around inside the house at all.

E.g. they would do essentially what I have here

http://vps.templar.co.uk/FTTP%20installation/6%20Modem%20installation.png

Bring the fibre through the wall and put the NTU there, and then provide
some internal *Ethernet* to the existing router position

[The Natural Philosopher]

Most people found the only reason to have Virgin in the first place was
that it was faster than ADSL.

In all other respects the service was utter shit. And all have moved
once Openreach FTTC/FTTP became available



--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 21/02/2024 09:48, Tim Lamb wrote:

> The obvious location for the new router is my office as that is directly
> below the existing cable termination. Internal data cabling is all
> ducted under plaster but re-positioning the Netgear switches is
> possible. Piss poor location for wi-fi distribution though.

They don't like fibre off ground level.

You need to pick an outside wall where:

- they can drop from the existing overhead location to ground level -
they will replace the copper with fibre BUT THEY WILL NOT TERMINATE AT
EAVES LEVEL.

http://vps.templar.co.uk/FTTP%20installation/4%20Fibre%20run%20eaves%20to%20ground%20level.png

- they can then route the fibre to a location where they can put the
outside Openreach accessible and serviceable *optical* termination

http://vps.templar.co.uk/FTTP%20installation/5%20OpenReach%20Fibre%20termination.png


- They can drill through the wall to put the NTU near a mains
socket..,and run a very short *fibre* patch lead through the wall to it.

http://vps.templar.co.uk/slideshow.php?picture=FTTP%20installation/6%20Modem%20installation.png

That is where their responsibility ends.

*You* will need to run a CAT5E cable to where your router is, and your
router will have a phone socket on it (or you will be issued a separate
box to plug into it) to replace the old master socket.

I strongly suggest you take the opportunity to run CAT5E to everywhere
you might want a computer or a wifi point...from wherever you want your
router and phone point

My office based router is completely useless for wifi. Only devices in
the office itself can use it, so I put Ethernet to the kitchen and the
living room, and put wifi points in those - most bedrooms are above one
area or the other so that works, and the annex has Ethernet for visitors
anyway.


--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

[John Rumm]

On 21/02/2024 09:48, Tim Lamb wrote:

> In message <ur388o$2n6k2$1...@dont-email.me>, John Rumm
> <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> writes
>> On 20/02/2024 17:55, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>> Whoopee!
>>>  The poles in our lane have sprouted a fibre optic feed!
>>>  How long does the final connection usually take/how soon do I have
>>> to  start worrying about telephone connections?
>>
>> In our case it was a few months... however they might be getting
>> batter/faster at it now :-)
>
> I don't suppose we will be first in the lane so I can learn from the
> others.

Once the new system is live, anyone can order a connection - there aught
to be no queue other than "first come first served".

> The obvious location for the new router is my office as that is directly
> below the existing cable termination.

They will normally bring the fibre in in a place that you choose -
although typically they don't like working at height. Sometimes they use
an external junction box to terminate the fibre drop, and then run a
less heavily insulated / armoured fibre through the wall to the ONT
box[1]. That then presents the connection on ethernet.

> Internal data cabling is all
> ducted under plaster but re-positioning the Netgear switches is
> possible.

As long as you can run ethernet to the place the ONT is installed, there
is no need to move anything else. (I am assuming that they will supply a
separate ONT and router rather than something integrated).

> Piss poor location for wi-fi distribution though.

As is often the case - the location of the main router is often
suboptimal for a wifi access point. The fix is to have a/other wifi
access points elsewhere, and not rely on that built into the router.


[1] Mine is one of the earlier installs where they supplied the ONT in a
secondary enclosure that also included a battery backup unit. I think
they have "simplified" that now and done away with the separate case and
the BBU. The ONT may have got smaller as well:

https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:PONUnitWithPSU.png

[Theo]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 21/02/2024 10:10, Theo wrote:
> > Tim Lamb <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Hmm. For convenience of internal wiring and best wi-fi position, I
> >> pre-fitted a length of standard phone cable through our loft areas and
> >> *sweetened* the original installer to use that for the final connection.
> >> Be very awkward if the fibre is terminated at the gable or just run down
> >> the outside wall.
> >
> > On Openreach fibre you can pay £40 for a 'deluxe installation' (can't
> > remember exactly what they call it) that includes a good length of interior
> > cabling. They still want an external wall box at ground floor level (to
> > terminate the street fibre and allow techs to access) so there would be a
> > cable run down the outside, but the deluxe install means they'll run cables
> > from there internally to where you want your ONT and/or router.
>
> Not cables. Fibre.
>
> The ONT connects to the fibre WITH fibre.

Fibre optic cable is a cable. Just with glass not copper.

> I suspect the deluxe is to add (external)?) Ethernet to where the
> incoming copper used to go.

Found it - it's called 'premium installation':
https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/fibre-broadband/installation-options

"For our standard installation, our engineers will:

connect an optical network terminator (ONT) within 1m of the nearest 13amp power socket and up to 10m from where the fibre enters the building
run any external cable needed to reach the nearest suitable fibre entry point.
connect your customer’s router next to the ONT
connect one device – a set-top box, PC, laptop or smartphone. They won’t connect games consoles, Wi-Fi extenders or mesh network devices, dongles or any other devices which are specific to a communications provider. And they must have been connected to the customers’ network previously.
upgrade a master socket to the latest NTE5c design if needed

For our premium installation, our engineers will:

connect an optical network terminator (ONT) within 1m of the nearest 13amp power socket and – if needed - more than 10m and up to 30m from where the fibre enters the building.
Run more than 15m of external cable to reach the customer’s preferred fibre entry point.
connect your customer’s router next to the ONT
connect up to three devices – a set-top box, PC, laptop or smartphone. They won’t connect games consoles, Wi-Fi extenders or mesh network devices, dongles or any other devices which are specific to a communications provider. And they must have been connected to the customers’ network previously.
carry out Voice Re-injection Installation (VRI), which uses existing internal wiring to make use of traditional telephones.
map Wi-Fi to help customers find the strongest signal
upgrade a master socket to the latest NTE5c design if needed"

> I don't think they want any fibre running around inside the house at all.
>
> E.g. they would do essentially what I have here
>
> http://vps.templar.co.uk/FTTP%20installation/6%20Modem%20installation.png
>
> Bring the fibre through the wall and put the NTU there, and then provide
> some internal *Ethernet* to the existing router position

The above says they'll put the ONT up to 10m away from the fibre entry point
in the 'standard installation' and 30m for the 'premium' one.

Theo

[Theo]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 20/02/2024 22:18, SteveW wrote:
> > IIRC, the fibre must be fed to an "ONT" and then a router (or a router
> > with an in-built ONT)
>
> These do not exist in the UK

They do, just not with Openreach. I'm getting one (from County Broadband).
Virgin also do them on their XGS-PON network. See picture of router with
green fibre going in:
https://d3v0ps.cloud/2023/09/20/virgin-media-xgs-pon-installation/

(the older Virgin fibre uses RFoG - RF Over Glass - which is just the same
old DOCSIS cable TV signal but sent over fibre instead of coax, with a media
converter to convert back to coax that goes into their combined Superhub
modem/router. They are gradually moving to XGS-PON)

Theo

[Owain Lastname]

On Wednesday 21 February 2024 at 10:29:10 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> > IIRC, the fibre must be fed to an "ONT" and then a router (or a router
> > with an in-built ONT)
> These do not exist in the UK

B4RN use routers with built-in ONT (SFP port)

https://b4rn.org.uk/assets/documents/quick-start-a3-v1.5.pdf

Owain

[Tim Lamb]

In message <ur4jj5$32fbl$7...@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> writes

>On 21/02/2024 10:10, Theo wrote:
>> Tim Lamb <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Hmm. For convenience of internal wiring and best wi-fi position, I
>>> pre-fitted a length of standard phone cable through our loft areas and
>>> *sweetened* the original installer to use that for the final connection.
>>> Be very awkward if the fibre is terminated at the gable or just run down
>>> the outside wall.
>> On Openreach fibre you can pay £40 for a 'deluxe installation'
>>(can't
>> remember exactly what they call it) that includes a good length of interior
>> cabling. They still want an external wall box at ground floor level (to
>> terminate the street fibre and allow techs to access) so there would be a
>> cable run down the outside, but the deluxe install means they'll run cables
>> from there internally to where you want your ONT and/or router.
>
>Not cables. Fibre.
>
>The ONT connects to the fibre WITH fibre.
>
>I suspect the deluxe is to add (external)?) Ethernet to where the
>incoming copper used to go.
>
>I don't think they want any fibre running around inside the house at all.
>
>E.g. they would do essentially what I have here
>
>http://vps.templar.co.uk/FTTP%20installation/6%20Modem%20installation.png
>
>Bring the fibre through the wall and put the NTU there, and then
>provide some internal *Ethernet* to the existing router position

Confusion rains:-)

So they could do the fibre termination in my office. I then run some
Ethernet cable to my existing router position. They supply a new router
with a phone outlet which I use for the Panasonic set up?

--
Tim Lamb

[Tim Lamb]

In message <9Nn*jo...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo
<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes

>Tim Lamb <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> No real rush now my phone line has been repaired. In some ways I'd be
>> happier to not have my TV screen cluttered with intrusive video offers!
>
>Not sure that follows... speed of internet doesn't affect ads on your TV.
>But a good rule of thumb is to never connect a smart TV to the internet:
>makers sell them at a loss and make a profit by spying on your viewing
>habits and sending you ads. Better to use a third party box like an Apple
>TV [*] and connect via HDMI.

My TV viewing is restricted to News or recorded programmes where I can
fast forward through the adds:-)

>
>Theo
>
>[*] Apple are better than the others, Nvidia Shield comes out well too:
>https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/categories/streamin
>g-players/

--
Tim Lamb

[Tim Lamb]

In message <9Nn*jm...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo
<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes

Ah! They are going to need an overhead incomer. Concrete yard and no
convenient lawns to trench:-)
I can re-jig my internal wiring for data but wi-fi and existing phone
system will be tricky.
£40 install probably best. Better still if they gift me enough *cable*
to do the lofts run in advance.

--
Tim Lamb

[Tim Lamb]

In message <ur4j51$32fbl$5...@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher

<t...@invalid.invalid> writes
>On 20/02/2024 21:18, Tim Lamb wrote:
>> In message <ur2uig$2ld6t$2...@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
>><t...@invalid.invalid> writes
>>> On 20/02/2024 17:55, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>> Whoopee!
>>>>  The poles in our lane have sprouted a fibre optic feed!
>>>>  How long does the final connection usually take/how soon do I have
>>>>to  start worrying about telephone connections?
>>>
>>> I think its all optional right now but in your case simply ask your
>>>ISP when you can have it.
>>>
>>> They *should* organise you a BT style phone socket like the landline
>>>with the same number that 'just works'...
>> Assuming this is FTTP and they have just replaced my incoming cable,
>>can they use that and the existing outlet?
>>
>The could but they wont.
>
>They will stick the fibre termination kit to wherever is most
>convenient for them, not for you. On an outside wall near a mains
>socket.
>
>That will have an Ethernet socket on it that will connect to your
>router and that will most likely have a phone socket on it as well.
>
>Its up to you to provide Ethernet wiring to wherever your existing
>phone and router setup is.

Ok. I think I could handle that. I have a part roll of Ethernet cable
from the original install.

Assuming they supply a new router with a phone outlet.

--
Tim Lamb

[SteveW]

On 21/02/2024 10:19, Theo wrote:
> Tim Lamb <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> No real rush now my phone line has been repaired. In some ways I'd be
>> happier to not have my TV screen cluttered with intrusive video offers!
>
> Not sure that follows... speed of internet doesn't affect ads on your TV.
> But a good rule of thumb is to never connect a smart TV to the internet:
> makers sell them at a loss and make a profit by spying on your viewing
> habits and sending you ads. Better to use a third party box like an Apple
> TV [*] and connect via HDMI.

They'd not get too much from our smart TV. We sometimes use it for
catchup or for Netflix (rare) and other than that it is just a display
for one of our satellite boxes (running open source, not commercial,
software).

[SteveW]

I'm glad to say that, in 3-1/2 years with Virgin, we have only suffered
a couple of short term outages and one intermittent fault that they
quickly traced back to a few levels into their network and which was
rapidly fixed.

As we've not really had problems, I've not had the trouble that many
seem to have in talking to them and getting things done.

In the past, I have had problems with OpenReach (via my ISP of the
time), who took weeks and multiple visits to finally do exactly what I'd
told them would need doing from the start (moving to another pair from
the cabinet). Later they had a fault with a card in the exchange, but
they only found that after they wrongly re-wired part of my internal
wiring, because they thought it was wrong and then refused to put it
back to how it was - despite it conforming to the faceplate/filter
manufacturer's instructions and an earlier visit resulting in a comment
about how good my internal wiring was, that it was all spot on and they
were pleased that I'd used the correct colours!

[SteveW]

On 21/02/2024 10:50, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 21/02/2024 09:48, Tim Lamb wrote:
>
>> The obvious location for the new router is my office as that is
>> directly below the existing cable termination. Internal data cabling
>> is all ducted under plaster but re-positioning the Netgear switches is
>> possible. Piss poor location for wi-fi distribution though.
>
> They don't like fibre off ground level.
>
> You need to pick an outside wall where:
>
> - they can drop from the existing overhead location to ground level  -
> they will replace the copper with fibre BUT THEY WILL NOT TERMINATE AT
> EAVES LEVEL.
>
> http://vps.templar.co.uk/FTTP%20installation/4%20Fibre%20run%20eaves%20to%20ground%20level.png
>
> - they can then route the fibre to a location where they can put the
> outside Openreach accessible and serviceable *optical* termination
>
> http://vps.templar.co.uk/FTTP%20installation/5%20OpenReach%20Fibre%20termination.png
>
> - They can drill through the wall to put the NTU near a mains
> socket..,and run a very short *fibre* patch lead through the wall to it.
>
> http://vps.templar.co.uk/slideshow.php?picture=FTTP%20installation/6%20Modem%20installation.png
>
> That is where their responsibility ends.

I wonder if they'll run along the wall to the back of the house? Our
(currently unused) copper comes to the front corner of the house and
drops down to come through to the Master socket, but I don't want their
modem sitting in the hall (it'd be on view and I'd have to channel the
wall for an Ethernet cable), when my ADSL extension used to and now the
Virgin cable does run under the house to my dedicated server cupboard,
where my modem, router, switch, server, DECT base-station and UPS are.

I could play the disabilty card (my wife is disabled) and push them to
get it to the back, so as to allow for use of the UPS, ensuring that she
is not left without the "landline" if power goes out.

[Theo]

They're sneakier than that - they analyse the audio stream that's playing
and use it to ID what video it's associated with. Then they have a full
list of programmes you watch, on any channel or catchup, to which they can
attach to your account information and then sell that to advertisers.
(which is still valuable even if they never get to show you ads)

This is avoided if you never give the thing internet.

Theo

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 21/02/2024 12:50, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <9Nn*jo...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo
> <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
>> Tim Lamb <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> No real rush now my phone line has been repaired. In some ways I'd be
>>> happier to not have my TV screen cluttered with intrusive video offers!
>>
>> Not sure that follows... speed of internet doesn't affect ads on your TV.
>> But a good rule of thumb is to never connect a smart TV to the internet:
>> makers sell them at a loss and make a profit by spying on your viewing
>> habits and sending you ads.  Better to use a third party box like an
>> Apple
>> TV [*] and connect via HDMI.
>
> My TV viewing is restricted to News or recorded programmes where I can
> fast forward through the adds:-)

I dunno what has happened to my TV viewing at all.

Apart from a bit of Rugby, and a bit of GB news, the rest is all repeats
I have seen already, films I have seen already or woke crap I switch off
instantly

The tellies get used to watch that plus recorded films or listen to
classic FM.



--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

[SteveW]

Are they really checking against a massive list or just against what's
being broadcast at the time - we rarely watch anything while it is
actually on.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 21/02/2024 12:50, Tim Lamb wrote:

If it is ground floor, yes. Although it looks like they would extend
fibre from ground floor ingress to where you wantm, for extra

> I then run some
> Ethernet cable to my existing router position.

Yes. For openreach that is the important difference. The NTE and the
router are *not* the same box and are connected by *Ethernet*'

So the NTE goes where its convenient for Openreach, and the Router
wherever is convenient for *you*...

They supply a new router
> with a phone outlet which I use for the Panasonic set up?
>

Probably: depends on ISP. Might use existing router and supply Ethernet
to phone adapter.

But that's irrelevant. You will get a phone socket either in the
router, or able to be attached to it via Ethernet





--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

[The Natural Philosopher]

Someone will unless your router is equipped with both Ethernet WAN
capability and VOIP capability. Mine is, but I bought it...

--
“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

- Bertrand Russell

[Bob Eager]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2024 11:19:11 +0000, Theo wrote:

> The above says they'll put the ONT up to 10m away from the fibre entry
> point in the 'standard installation' and 30m for the 'premium' one.

Our fibre entry comes into the back of a splice point box (tiny). The ONT
is less than 10cm away. The ethernet cable from that is less than a metre
to the router, which is in the equipment rack. No wifi on router, as there
are four mesh WAPs round the house, with wired backhaul.

As for UPS, the rack has one, the office has one, and my workshop has one.
We are near the centre of the town, but one of the early houses; our phone
line, when we had one (it went with the fibre and was only for DSL) was to
a distant cabinet, unlike all the neigbours who are on a much closer
cabinet. We do get spikes and brownouts, and the principal purpose of the
UPS units is to protect equipment. It does work well with power cuts
though; automatic shutdown when the batteries get low.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 21/02/2024 13:12, SteveW wrote:
> I'm glad to say that, in 3-1/2 years with Virgin, we have only suffered
> a couple of short term outages and one intermittent fault that they
> quickly traced back to a few levels into their network and which was
> rapidly fixed.
>

In my couple of years with fibre and IDNET I have only suffered a couple
of 1 minite breaks in the middle of the night that resolved themselves.
Probably radius servers or frame relay kit being rebooted

> As we've not really had problems, I've not had the trouble that many
> seem to have in talking to them and getting things done.

I cant recommend IDnet highly enough if you are reasonably technical.
They are not geared for the BT 'reboot your router' support scripts, but
if you talk to them - and they are not on India, but in Hemel Hempstead
- you get real service.


--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

[Bob Eager]

This is my fibre termination. The external fibre comes into the back of
the splice box on the right.

http://www.tavi.co.uk/ont1.jpg
http://www.tavi.co.uk/ont2.jpg

[The Natural Philosopher]

In my case straight down was into the kitchen, so they ran the fibre to
the house rear to the *annex* kitchen, which was fine. They had access
to it without needing to get the householder to open any gates, and I
had power and ethernet there already. So it was the perfect compromise

> I could play the disabilty card (my wife is disabled) and push them to
> get it to the back, so as to allow for use of the UPS, ensuring that she
> is not left without the "landline" if power goes out.
>

They will run the fibre anywhere you want *outside* provided it allows
easy access without a ladder to their *external* termination box .

They then want a power socket the other side of the wall to run up the NTE.

If you chose to put a router there as well, , but you can extend with
ethernet anywhere you like.

[charles]

In article <kMoZKCQP...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>, Tim Lamb

<t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <9Nn*jm...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo
> <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
> >Tim Lamb <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Hmm. For convenience of internal wiring and best wi-fi position, I
> >> pre-fitted a length of standard phone cable through our loft areas and
> >> *sweetened* the original installer to use that for the final
> >> connection. Be very awkward if the fibre is terminated at the gable or
> >> just run down the outside wall.
> >
> >On Openreach fibre you can pay £40 for a 'deluxe installation' (can't
> >remember exactly what they call it) that includes a good length of
> >interior cabling. They still want an external wall box at ground floor
> >level (to terminate the street fibre and allow techs to access) so there
> >would be a cable run down the outside, but the deluxe install means
> >they'll run cables from there internally to where you want your ONT
> >and/or router.

> Ah! They are going to need an overhead incomer. Concrete yard and no
> convenient lawns to trench:-)

My incomer is overhead from a pole across the road.

> I can re-jig my internal wiring for data but wi-fi and existing phone
> system will be tricky. £40 install probably best. Better still if they
> gift me enough *cable* to do the lofts run in advance.

--

from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Chris Green]

... or even reigns! :-)

--
Chris Green
·

[Theo]

SteveW <st...@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:

> On 21/02/2024 13:36, Theo wrote:
> >
> > They're sneakier than that - they analyse the audio stream that's playing
> > and use it to ID what video it's associated with. Then they have a full
> > list of programmes you watch, on any channel or catchup, to which they can
> > attach to your account information and then sell that to advertisers.
> > (which is still valuable even if they never get to show you ads)
> >
> > This is avoided if you never give the thing internet.
>
> Are they really checking against a massive list or just against what's
> being broadcast at the time - we rarely watch anything while it is
> actually on.

They have computers 'watch' content (live and streaming) and generate
fingerprints, so once you have the fingerprint library you can use it to match
against the fingerprints generated from smart TVs. It's then just a case of
how much storage they want to pay to store their fingerprint back catalogue.

https://www.adexchanger.com/ad-exchange-news/the-marketers-guide-to-acr-tech-in-smart-tvs/

Theo

[SteveW]

Fibre to the back of the house, termination box on the conservatory wall
and straight through into the server cupbaord would work for me. It puts
everything together and right where the UPS is.

[Theo]

John Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:
> Might be worth seeing if there is a "superfast" web site for your area.
> Ours is here:
>
> https://www.superfastessex.org/get-connected/broadband/interactive-map/
>
> and it has an interactive map that shows what coverage each property has
> and at what stage upgrades are planned (if they are planned!)

This is interesting:
https://bidb.uk/

It shows not just networks operating in your area (including altnets) but
roadworks (current and future). So you get a heads up of work that might be
coming your way, even if they haven't announced.

For me it says Gigaclear is 'planned' - which is confirmed on their site -
and indeed they have some in the next village - I hadn't seen any mention of
that at all locally.

Theo

[John Rumm]

On 21/02/2024 13:36, Theo wrote:

I can see a challenge[1] with that for your average user that wants to
access streaming / catchup content...

Good idea to place such devices on their own VLAN so that they can't see
or access other parts of the LAN though.

[1] Spose a network tuner for live broadcast content via a media server.
Then you could download streamed content prior to viewing onto that as
well. The TV then just being a "screen" without internet access.

[SH]

On 20/02/2024 21:08, Theo wrote:
> Tim Lamb <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>> Whoopee!
>>
>> The poles in our lane have sprouted a fibre optic feed!
>>
>> How long does the final connection usually take/how soon do I have to
>> start worrying about telephone connections?
>

> Have you heard any noises locally about a fibre deployment?
>
> These days Openreach will install fibre if you have a development site of 2
> or more properties. That means you may see fibre on a pole route that
> services a new build site, but doesn't mean they will fit fibre to the
> houses with existing connections any time soon. If your lane happens to
> have (had) a building site along it, that might be the reason.
>
> You can also use the BT Checker to see what they say for your property:
> https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/
>
> Theo


in a related vein.....

i have a friend who currently has 10 mbit ADSL.

I can see there is fibre to the pole along with a black plastic dome
fibre splice box on it literally at the corner of his front garden. Its
been there a few months now.

Now there are also 7 neighbours all with the same post code that are fed
by copper on this pole plus another pole 3 poles down the road (also
with a fibre splice box.

What have all of them got to do in order to persuade OR to provide them
with FTTP from the fibre splice boxes from said poles?

Looking up up that BB checker BT wholesale and putting in the UPRN
reveals that the local exchange is not a FTTP priority exchange.

All of the 7 neighbours and my friend all want FTTP.

S.

[SH]

oh yes like a HD Home Run Quattro for Freeview or a Kathrein EXIP 414
for freesat.... :-)

[RJH]

On my LG TV there are settings to switch it all off - via several menus and
opt outs. Also, reset, data, whatever that means. I had a look just now, and
I'd thought I'd disabled it all when I bought it, but a couple of settings
were allowing tracking. Maybe they'd sneaked in folowing software updates.

In any event, I can't think of a way they use that data - for me at least. By
app, maybe - iPlayer for example. But the TV itself doesn't seem to push
anything that I use.

I'd be more worried if the data is used outside the TV . . . dread to think
what sort of profile AI might generate

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

[alan_m]

On 21/02/2024 10:19, Theo wrote:
> Tim Lamb <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> No real rush now my phone line has been repaired. In some ways I'd be
>> happier to not have my TV screen cluttered with intrusive video offers!
>
> Not sure that follows... speed of internet doesn't affect ads on your TV.
> But a good rule of thumb is to never connect a smart TV to the internet:
> makers sell them at a loss and make a profit by spying on your viewing
> habits and sending you ads. Better to use a third party box like an Apple
> TV [*] and connect via HDMI.
>

> Theo
>
> [*] Apple are better than the others, Nvidia Shield comes out well too:
> https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/categories/streaming-players/

My Samsung TV came with the settings for the adverts from thousands of
third parties default = on. On one of the privacy menu settings it was
possible to turn off these permissions BUT only one at a time, a task
that would have taken a week :). It took me quite a while to find in
the setting menu the option(s) to disable all of the permissions in one
go. The setting was obscurely and misleadingly named to hide the true
functionality. Even when turned off there were dire warnings about not
getting the best viewing experience from the TV!


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[Chris J Dixon]

alan_m wrote:

>My Samsung TV came with the settings for the adverts from thousands of
>third parties default = on. On one of the privacy menu settings it was
>possible to turn off these permissions BUT only one at a time, a task
>that would have taken a week :). It took me quite a while to find in
>the setting menu the option(s) to disable all of the permissions in one
>go. The setting was obscurely and misleadingly named to hide the true
>functionality. Even when turned off there were dire warnings about not
>getting the best viewing experience from the TV!

And the setting name was?

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

[Robert]

On 20/02/2024 17:55, Tim Lamb wrote:
> Whoopee!
>
> The poles in our lane have sprouted a fibre optic feed!
>
> How long does the final connection usually take/how soon do I have to
> start worrying about telephone connections?

It depends on who is putting the fibre infrastructure in, there are
fibre companies who install the fibre and provide the ISP services and
those who install fibre for use by a selection of ISPs.
Unlike the copper feed from Openreach, each fibre company install their
own fibre so you could end up with more than one feed on the pole.
We have Wefibre ( Telecom) installed and working, with Fibrus installing
a 2nd fibre onto the pole at present !
There is usually plenty of local advertising when fibre is becoming
available sometimes with early-bird deals. I pay £20 per month for "1Gbps."
Worth thinking about where in the house you want the final connection
box installed.