Missing radio time signal from Anthorn?

[Mike Tomlinson]

My radio-controlled clock lost the signal a few days ago and still
hasn't been able to sync. The MSF Anthorn time signal webpage isn't
reporting any outage (the next scheduled one is 8 June)

Anyone else seeing the same?

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West

[charles]

In article <g6IbahLN...@jasper.org.uk>,

Mike Tomlinson <mi...@jasper.org.uk> wrote:

> My radio-controlled clock lost the signal a few days ago and still
> hasn't been able to sync. The MSF Anthorn time signal webpage isn't
> reporting any outage (the next scheduled one is 8 June)

> Anyone else seeing the same?

I have 4 Anthorn clocks - woops, one needs a new battery. That one
restored saying the same time as the others. That would seem to imply
Anthorn is working.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

[AnthonyL]

On Mon, 01 May 2017 09:33:42 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
wrote:

It's never been quite as good for me as it was when in Rugby.
--
AnthonyL

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 01 May 2017 12:25:55 GMT, AnthonyL wrote:

>>> Anyone else seeing the same?

I can see an interference spike at 60 kHz in my lightenig detector
signals.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[tony sayer]

In article <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@news.individual.net>,
Dave Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> scribeth thus

>On Mon, 01 May 2017 12:25:55 GMT, AnthonyL wrote:
>
>>>> Anyone else seeing the same?
>
>I can see an interference spike at 60 kHz in my lightenig detector
>signals.
>

Lightning detector which model is that Dave?

Just curious..

Do you contribute to lightning.org perchance?.
--
Tony Sayer

[Mike Tomlinson]

En el artículo <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@news.individual.net>,
Dave Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> escribió:

>I can see an interference spike at 60 kHz in my lightenig detector
>signals.

I've just realised I have an open-box (barebones) PC undergoing testing
on a bench nearby, about 1.5m from the clock. The RF from that is
probably swamping it (and a lot else!) and the outage corresponds
roughly to when I switched on the PC.

It's undergoing data recovery at the mo so I can't turn it off just yet.

[PeterC]

On Mon, 1 May 2017 15:50:48 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

> En el artículo <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@news.individual.net>,
> Dave Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> escribió:
>
>>I can see an interference spike at 60 kHz in my lightenig detector
>>signals.
>
> I've just realised I have an open-box (barebones) PC undergoing testing
> on a bench nearby, about 1.5m from the clock. The RF from that is
> probably swamping it (and a lot else!) and the outage corresponds
> roughly to when I switched on the PC.
>
> It's undergoing data recovery at the mo so I can't turn it off just yet.

That is likely. When the signal was from Rugby a clock was OK next to the
case; now it's on the other side of the desk and the light on it isn't as
good.
I move the case, but it won't go under a shelf.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 01/05/17 15:35, tony sayer wrote:
> In article <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@news.individual.net>,
> Dave Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> scribeth thus
>> On Mon, 01 May 2017 12:25:55 GMT, AnthonyL wrote:
>>
>>>>> Anyone else seeing the same?
>>
>> I can see an interference spike at 60 kHz in my lightenig detector
>> signals.
>>
>
> Lightning detector which model is that Dave?
>

He said lightening detector. I.e. his bathroom scales.

> Just curious..
>
> Do you contribute to lightning.org perchance?.
>


--

"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

[Brian Gaff]

Yes i suspect the clock in question probably has died or maybe if its an all
singing and dancing type its software is scrambled.
Brian

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"charles" <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote in message
news:5635504b...@candehope.me.uk...

[Brian Gaff]

Not enoughcopper in the ground probably!
Some use a german one don't they?

Brian

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"AnthonyL" <nos...@please.invalid> wrote in message
news:5907291f...@news.eternal-september.org...

[Brian Gaff]

I always thought lightening was pretty broad band.

Brian

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"tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:OFg$xzVZe0...@bancom.co.uk...

[Brian Gaff]

Well, not convinced, can't you move the clock instead?

Brian

--
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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Blind user, so no pictures please!

"Mike Tomlinson" <mi...@jasper.org.uk> wrote in message
news:4xJtI5NI...@jasper.org.uk...

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 1 May 2017 15:35:05 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

>> I can see an interference spike at 60 kHz in my lightenig detector
>> signals.
>
> Lightning detector which model is that Dave?

A Blitzortung system Blue. A co-operative time of arrival system.

> Do you contribute to lightning.org perchance?.

www.lightningmaps.org or www.blitzortung.org. Live strikes, well live
in so much as anything is live these days. The delay is normally only
a second or two though.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 1 May 2017 19:17:12 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:

> I always thought lightening was pretty broad band.

It is. The Blitzortung reciever goes from a few kHz up to aboout 150
kHz but most of the energy is below 25 kHz.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Johnny B Good]

On Mon, 01 May 2017 15:50:48 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

> En el artículo <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@news.individual.net>,
> Dave Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> escribió:
>
>>I can see an interference spike at 60 kHz in my lightenig detector
>>signals.
>
> I've just realised I have an open-box (barebones) PC undergoing testing
> on a bench nearby, about 1.5m from the clock. The RF from that is
> probably swamping it (and a lot else!) and the outage corresponds
> roughly to when I switched on the PC.
>
> It's undergoing data recovery at the mo so I can't turn it off just yet.

A desktop PC doesn't even need to be opened for its operation to
interfere with a radio synced clock, just close by (within a few yards).

The emc screening is mere 'tokenism' in most cases, at best, maybe
reducing emissions by a mere 10dB or so. Effective containment of RF hash
generated by digital kit to within the confines of its metal box is a lot
harder than it looks to the public at large. Having an al fresco PC
operating nearby will almost certainly account for the lack of reception
of the time standard transmissions.

Refitting the covers will mitigate the problem but won't necessarily
guarantee restoration of the status quo. You may have to shut the machine
off completely before that can happen. If you need to keep the job
running for many more hours, you'll have to temporarily relocate the
radio clock to another room for a short while (half an hour or so?) to
allow it to sync back up.

--
Johnny B Good

[Johnny B Good]

On Mon, 01 May 2017 19:15:53 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:

> Not enoughcopper in the ground probably!
> Some use a german one don't they?
> Brian

As you ought to know, Brian, it's not a matter of a low impedance
grounding connection, it's a matter of *screening* which can range from a
simple sealed metal box for a battery powered interference source to a
more sophisticated ventilated "box within a box" with pass-through
capacitor feeds for power, input and output signals supplemented with
high quality filtering components incorporated either side of the pass-
through capacitor feed connections.

--
Johnny B Good

[Scott]

Is that why the radio controlled clocks at my work won't reset during
the day, but recover through the night (when the PCs are off)?

And there was me telling the staff it was because the radio signals
have a long way to travel and propagate better during hours of
darkness.

[Johnny B Good]

On Mon, 01 May 2017 21:11:23 +0100, Scott wrote:

> On Mon, 01 May 2017 19:16:45 GMT, Johnny B Good
> <johnny...@invalid.ntlworld.com> wrote:
>

====snip====

>>
>> Refitting the covers will mitigate the problem but won't necessarily
>>guarantee restoration of the status quo. You may have to shut the
>>machine off completely before that can happen. If you need to keep the
>>job running for many more hours, you'll have to temporarily relocate the
>>radio clock to another room for a short while (half an hour or so?) to
>>allow it to sync back up.
>
> Is that why the radio controlled clocks at my work won't reset during
> the day, but recover through the night (when the PCs are off)?

Yes! That's it exactly! :-)

>
> And there was me telling the staff it was because the radio signals have
> a long way to travel and propagate better during hours of darkness.

That applies to medium wave broadcasts, less so for the long wave
broadcasts and virtually not at all for the VLF wavelength used by Anthorn
(72KHz? - I know it's close to the 60KHz that (is/was?) used by Rugby MSF)
which was chosen for its more consistent groundwave propagation
characteristic.

--
Johnny B Good

[Bob Eager]

It's 60 kHz. Technically, it's LF (not VLF), as VLF is only below 30kHz.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

[Mike Tomlinson]

En el artículo <xQLNA.1089033$nT1.2...@fx44.am4>, Johnny B Good
<johnny...@invalid.ntlworld.com> escribió:

> Refitting the covers will mitigate the problem

There /are/ no covers. It's a bare board on the bench with five hard
discs attached :)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hy928i09fiqbq8z/naked_pc.jpg?dl=0

It's the one with a zfs array that I recently posted about in
uk.comp.homebuilt.

> you'll have to temporarily relocate the
>radio clock to another room for a short while (half an hour or so?) to
>allow it to sync back up

oh, I can wait. I've got the PC clock which is NTP sync'd.

I just hadn't connected the loss of radio clock sync with setting up the
barebones PC.

[Johnny B Good]

I stand corrected. I was trying to make the distinction (badly) between
the frequencies used below the LW broadcast band and the LW broadcast
band itself.

The frequency band range nomenclature doesn't fit too well with the
broadcast wavelength based assignments. The LW broadcast band fits nicely
into the middle of the LF range, 30 to 300 KHz but the MW broadcast band
only occupies a relatively small segment of the MF range, 300 to 3000 KHz.
However, the HF range, covering 3 to 30MHz nicely encompasses all the SW
broadcast bands allowing the HF and SW nominators to be used
interchangeably in this case.

JOOI, were you saying that the Anthorn signal also uses 60KHz or just
reminding me that 60KHz is in the LF rather than the VLF band?

--
Johnny B Good

[Johnny B Good]

On Tue, 02 May 2017 00:11:58 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

> En el artículo <xQLNA.1089033$nT1.2...@fx44.am4>, Johnny B Good
> <johnny...@invalid.ntlworld.com> escribió:
>
>> Refitting the covers will mitigate the problem
>
> There /are/ no covers. It's a bare board on the bench with five hard
> discs attached :)
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/hy928i09fiqbq8z/naked_pc.jpg?dl=0
>
> It's the one with a zfs array that I recently posted about in
> uk.comp.homebuilt.
>
>> you'll have to temporarily relocate the
>>radio clock to another room for a short while (half an hour or so?) to
>>allow it to sync back up
>
> oh, I can wait. I've got the PC clock which is NTP sync'd.
>
> I just hadn't connected the loss of radio clock sync with setting up the
> barebones PC.

Ah! It's so easy to overlook what in hindsight becomes the bleedin'
obvious. :-) BTDTAGTBTS. Mind you, I earned my T-shirt nearly a decade
ago when I realised that the radio controlled clock built into the I.T.
Works weather station was only syncing up overnight when I was able to
shut down the laptop I was using for late night/wee small hours PVR duty
(I very rarely left the desktop PC on overnight to complete any PVR tasks
- the laptop was a better use of the electricity for that purpose).

The Wx station is less than 2 foot away from the laptop (and ditto the
desktop monitor which *does* get switched off overnight regardless). The
desktop sits about 4 foot away which is still too close to allow reliable
reception by the Wx station imo.

Since the computer clocks are synced to ntp servers, I just learned to
accept the creeping discrepancy in the Wx station's displayed time. My
venerable Casio DB360 wristwatch has settled down to drifting by less
than a second over the past 4 months so I use it as a "sanity check" that
the PC clock is staying synced to an ntp server.

However, one oddity I've just experienced with the computer clock is the
inability to trigger a manual resync. I've just tried to resync to reduce
the 3 second discrepancy with my watch back to the leap second induced 1
second behind error and it just claims an inability to connect to any ntp
server and slows the clock by half a second each attempt. I'm pretty
certain it's always behaved like this, yet it must manage to
automatically sync up since day to day (and this machine is rarely
powered off) it's usually just showing the 1 second lag with respect to
my watch due to my not being arsed to adjust for that leap second just
over 4 months ago. I'm running Linux Mint 17.1 KDE 64 for anyone
wondering what might be behind this peculiarity.

I'll check it tomorrow and see whether that 3 second discrepancy has
returned or not before considering the problem any further. However,
curiosity got the better of me and after wasting precious minutes
googling ntp servers, I eventually hit upon using "what is the correct
time now" which gave me this link: <https://time.is/GMT>" which is 3
seconds behind my watch strongly suggesting that my watch, after more
than 3 months of being ahead by a second has now suddenly gained an extra
two seconds during the last week or three.

If it's my watch suddenly gaining an extra couple of seconds, I expect
to see the computer clock time go adrift by 3 seconds WRT the watch when
I check it tomorrow (I've currently got the PC clock set to one second
behind the watch). The Wx station, btw, is 7 seconds slow compared to
time.is (making it 9 seconds behind the computer clock).

--
Johnny B Good

[Bob Eager]

I suspect this is all down to two different groups (scientists and
marketers) trying to use their own noencalture in the past!

> JOOI, were you saying that the Anthorn signal also uses 60KHz or just
> reminding me that 60KHz is in the LF rather than the VLF band?

It uses 60kHz. It also uses VLF (16kHz or thereabouts I think) for
submarine communications.

It's quite interesting looking at Anthorn on Google Earth.

[Mike Tomlinson]

En el artículo <MnSNA.1091375$nT1.2...@fx44.am4>, Johnny B Good
<johnny...@invalid.ntlworld.com> escribió:

> it just claims an inability to connect to any ntp
>server

Try the NTP pool: uk.pool.ntp.org

I have

0.uk.pool.ntp.org
1.uk.pool.ntp.org

as my servers. The IP address they point at changes in a 'round-robin'
fashion

>I eventually hit upon using "what is the correct
>time now" which gave me this link: <https://time.is/GMT>"

I like that too. It's in my daily "must look at" batchfile.

[Andy Burns]

Johnny B Good wrote:

> wavelength used by Anthorn
> (72KHz? - I know it's close to the 60KHz that (is/was?) used by Rugby MSF)

MSF from Anthorn uses the same 60kHz frequency and coding that it did
when it was broadcast from Rugby.

[Scott]

On Tue, 02 May 2017 01:30:20 GMT, Johnny B Good

Would it not have to be the same frequency as Rugby - otherwise all
the clocks would have required to be retuned?

[Mike Tomlinson]

En el artículo <ooaggcpqa952k82b9...@4ax.com>, Scott
<newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> escribió:

>Would it not have to be the same frequency as Rugby - otherwise all
>the clocks would have required to be retuned?

Anthorn replaced Rugby.

[charles]

In article <emqgqiF...@mid.individual.net>,

mmm. The runways are still there and some very clear shadows.

[tony sayer]

In article <oe7pok$mir$2...@news.albasani.net>, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus

>On 01/05/17 15:35, tony sayer wrote:
>> In article <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@news.individual.net>,
>> Dave Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> scribeth thus
>>> On Mon, 01 May 2017 12:25:55 GMT, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Anyone else seeing the same?
>>>
>>> I can see an interference spike at 60 kHz in my lightenig detector
>>> signals.
>>>
>>
>> Lightning detector which model is that Dave?
>>
>
>He said lightening detector. I.e. his bathroom scales.

LOL!....


Mind you thats the sort of thing he might detect Joves bolts;!...

>
>> Just curious..
>>
>> Do you contribute to lightning.org perchance?.
>>
>
>

--

Tony Sayer

[Dave Liquorice]

On 2 May 2017 04:38:43 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

> It uses 60kHz. It also uses VLF (16kHz or thereabouts I think) for
> submarine communications.

Anthorn GBZ 19.6 kHz, MSF 60 KHz 35 miles away. Skelton GQD 22.1 kHz
18 miles away. GBZ and GQD are a right PITA for the Blitzortung
receiver.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Scott wrote on 02/05/2017 :
> Would it not have to be the same frequency as Rugby - otherwise all
> the clocks would have required to be retuned?

It is as it always was - transmitting on 60Khz. The SF in MSF stands
for Standard Frequency. It not only transmits an accurate time, it is
also an extremely accurate frequency reference.

[Mike Tomlinson]

En el artículo <CakTSuA+...@jasper.org.uk>, Mike Tomlinson
<mi...@jasper.org.uk> escribió:

>I just hadn't connected the loss of radio clock sync with setting up the
>barebones PC.

PC's off now and clock still not syncing. Maybe it's farked.

Although it's been happy where it is for years, I'll try it in another
room with a window that faces in the rough direction of Anthorn.

[DJC]

On 01/05/17 21:11, Scott wrote:

>
> Is that why the radio controlled clocks at my work won't reset during
> the day, but recover through the night (when the PCs are off)?

The digital (LCD display) type may keep up with the time signal but
analogue display types only synchronise once a day usually 1-2am which
means in october they miss the DST change because they check too soon.

>
> And there was me telling the staff it was because the radio signals
> have a long way to travel and propagate better during hours of
> darkness.
>

--
djc

(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿)
No low-hanging fruit, just a lot of small berries up a tall tree.

[Johnny B Good]

Looking at this aerial photo view (which seems to have been snapped when
the surveying craft was almost directly over the most easterly mast
during mid to late afternoon) I noticed that the name showing just to the
south west of the transmitter hall complex is an actual construct on the
ground rather than an act of photoshopping by google.

http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/anthorn-vlf-transmitter/view/bing/

Interestingly the transmitter frequency is shown as 19.6KHz with the
callsign of GBZ


The initial aerial photo I saw at the following link which had led me to
the above aerial view:

<http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/anthorn/view/google/>

must have been the south eastern edge of a much larger image taken an
hour or so before noon on a winter's day which creates a very
disconcerting view indeed (rotating the image 180 degrees would have
remedied this effect but there doesn't appear to be an option to do this
on the web page). What at first glance appear to be shadows of masts are,
on closer inspection, the towers themselves with 'the tall towers'
proving to be nothing more substantial than mere shadows.

--
Johnny B Good

[Jim GM4DHJ ...]

"DJC" <d...@news.invalid> wrote in message news:oeamb3$lem$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 01/05/17 21:11, Scott wrote:
>
>>
>> Is that why the radio controlled clocks at my work won't reset during
>> the day, but recover through the night (when the PCs are off)?
>
>
> The digital (LCD display) type may keep up with the time signal but
> analogue display types only synchronise once a day usually 1-2am which
> means in october they miss the DST change because they check too soon.
>
>
>
>>
>> And there was me telling the staff it was because the radio signals
>> have a long way to travel and propagate better during hours of
>> darkness.
>>
>

must be why I was having that trouble with the analogue clock in the cludgy
.......

[Johnny B Good]

On Tue, 02 May 2017 05:52:50 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

> En el artículo <MnSNA.1091375$nT1.2...@fx44.am4>, Johnny B Good
> <johnny...@invalid.ntlworld.com> escribió:
>
>> it just claims an inability to connect to any ntp
>>server
>
> Try the NTP pool: uk.pool.ntp.org
>
> I have
>
> 0.uk.pool.ntp.org 1.uk.pool.ntp.org
>
> as my servers. The IP address they point at changes in a 'round-robin'
> fashion
>
>>I eventually hit upon using "what is the correct time now" which gave me
>>this link: <https://time.is/GMT>"
>
> I like that too. It's in my daily "must look at" batchfile.

It looks like my 'super accurate' Casio had decided to jump a couple of
seconds further ahead during the past week or so. A rather peculiar error
since a a sudden loss of a second or three after months of rock steady
time keeping seemed a more likely glitch to me. Ah well, a good excuse to
'apply' that long overdue leap-second correction I suppose.

The computer clock is obviously being kept in sync with NTP despite
there being no apparent way to force a re-sync manually like I could when
I was using win2k. Claiming it can't see any of the ntp servers is a
damned peculiar way of stopping the end user from over-riding the
automated updates though, especially if the attempt to re-sync results in
the PC clock losing a few hundred ms each time.

The computer clock display seems to be lagging the https://time.is/GMT
display by a couple of tenths of a second. I suspect the https://time.is/
GMT web server might be trying to compensate for browser/OS lag by being
a fraction of a second ahead. A couple of tenths of a second 'error' on a
clock displaying only to the nearest second is neither here no there and
being a fraction of a second ahead in this case is no bad thing, all
things considered.

--
Johnny B Good

[Mike Tomlinson]

En el artículo <J7bBqJDP...@jasper.org.uk>, Mike Tomlinson
<mi...@jasper.org.uk> escribió:

>Although it's been happy where it is for years, I'll try it in another
>room with a window that faces in the rough direction of Anthorn.

Stuck it in a room with a north-facing window and it synced* instantly.
Oh well. Odd.

* it has a LED that flashes when searching for the signal, and comes on
solid when synced.

[tony sayer]

In article <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@news.individual.net>,
Dave Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> scribeth thus

So you Do receive lightning broadcasts then?...
--
Tony Sayer

[Bob Eager]

On Tue, 02 May 2017 08:11:34 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

> En el artículo <ooaggcpqa952k82b9...@4ax.com>, Scott
> <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> escribió:
>
>>Would it not have to be the same frequency as Rugby - otherwise all the
>>clocks would have required to be retuned?
>
> Anthorn replaced Rugby.

Yes, that was the point of the discussion!