herringbone straps instead of noggins
Chris Styles
These herringbone straps look like a pretty convenient way of avoiding
timber noggins.
Question is, how many should I use on a 4.2m span?
One either end and one in the middle? One every 900mm ?
Any sugegstions welcome.
Cheers
Chris
Christian McArdle
>
> One either end and one in the middle?
According to BM Trada, that is acceptable, although it says this is a
minimum requirement and recommends you have more if possible.
Above 4.5m span, you should have 2 intermediate struts, so you are getting
into marginal territory for 1 intermediate with your 4.2m span.
Christian.
The Natural Philosopher
cut lots on a circular or handsaw and whack em in everywhere. The more
the better.
The great advantage is they can be a little bit inaccurate unlike
noggins, which really need to be mm perfect to work.
d...@gglz.com
>
> cut lots on a circular or handsaw and whack em in everywhere. The more
> the better.
>
> The great advantage is they can be a little bit inaccurate unlike
> noggins, which really need to be mm perfect to work.
I had assumed soild noggins were the better choice? Aren't noggins
convenient to position the joints between plasterboard sheets under?
Staffbull
On mine (same span) I had one run of them down the middle, this was
fine for BCO, :-) 22mm chip floor on the top and all is well :-)
Chris Styles
"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:116169028...@proxy02.news.clara.net...
I thought they'd be fitted by nailing the flat ends to the tops of adjacent
joists so that the strap is 90 degrees to the direction of the joist, i.e.
to replace a noggin... in which case why the circular/hand saw?
Have I totally missed how these are fitted?
Cheers,
Chris
Christian McArdle
>> the better.
>
> adjacent joists so that the strap is 90 degrees to the direction of the
> joist, i.e. to replace a noggin... in which case why the circular/hand
> saw?
I presume he means wooden herringbone strutting. This a couple of advantages
over the metal sort. Firstly, it is cheaper. You just cut up battenning for
it. Secondly, you can attach to the face of the joist, rather than the top
and bottom, which might not be accessible in a retofit context.
Christian.
d...@gglz.com
joist connected to the top the next face of the next joist - and vice
versa - giving a diagonal/herringbone pattern.
No point in connecting tops to tops or bottoms to bottoms as the
floorboards and plasterboards do that already
I'm less clear on which is superior, herringbone struts or noggins, and
why - in these days of mitre saws, cutting solid noggins to an exact
fit is no hassle.
Christian McArdle
> why - in these days of mitre saws, cutting solid noggins to an exact
> fit is no hassle.
Herringbone is superior in every respect:
1. Lighter (less dead load)
2. Cheaper (less wood)
3. Easier to install (less cutting, less precision required)
4. Easier to run cables/pipework.
5. Less susceptible to expansion/contraction.
Christian.
adde...@yahoo.co.uk
I want to remove a wall under some joists and it'll mean the span will
go up to 4.5m. The joists are 2*7.5 (or 47mm*190mm) and I cant find
any table to tell me if this is acceptable. For 400mm spacing this is
just over th elimit but on mine the gap to the first joist is 400mm
then there are two close together like 150mm then another 400mm.
Would strutting these joists make them comply do you think?
Christian McArdle
You need to strut them anyway, at each end and each third distance
intermediate.
Replacing the floorboards with plywood and gluing and screwing it down will
comply in spades, but is impractical for future maintenance. Seek advice
from your BCO.
Christian.
Chris Styles
There are a few constraint in what I am doing :
1) I dont have access to the underside of the joists, beacause I have a
ceiling there already, which rules out the metal straps
2) The new joists are going on on 400mm centres between the 600mm centred
trusses, which means 2 out of three of the gaps will have a
3) The regs say that noggins need to be 3/4 of the depth of the joist
I am fitting 9" joists, which means i'd need 6.75" noggins. However, a 6"
noggin would almost be resting on the tops of the truss joists, which means
I cant use to-the-spec noggins, and the metal straps are basically out of
the question...
Now, given that I dont plan to live in my loft i'm only flooring for
storage, and that i'm not after BCO approval, and by the sound of it some
people in older houses have hardly any strutting anyway, can anyone venture
a guess at what I would safely get away with, regardless of BCO regs etc?
For instance, if I used 100mm noggins and 22mm T7G floorboards, would that
be good enough to use occassionally and store, even though it wouldnt meet
the regs?
Cheers
Chris
Chris Styles
<adde...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1161700526.5...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I used this as a guide...
Not sure if houses in Worthing are particularly safe or dangerous, but it
seemed likea good guide
It is also consisent with my builder friends rule of where you halve the
span (in feet) add 2, and that is the depth of the rquired joist in inches
(for a 2" wide joist)
Christian McArdle
> noggin would almost be resting on the tops of the truss joists, which
> means I cant use to-the-spec noggins, and the metal straps are basically
> out of the question...
Just use wooden herringbone, as discussed elsewhere. Cut up battenning
material for it, particularly easy if you have a compound mitre saw. The
6.75" requirement is just the distance between the top and bottom mounting,
as it were, it doesn't all have to be wood.
It is much easier to fit than noggings, as any slight error in length is
accommodated by adjusting the angle of fitment.
Christian.
adde...@yahoo.co.uk
Where is the strutting requirement? I've looked in document A and
couldn't see anything in there about it. Is it all up to BCO's
discretion or are there actual guidance documents out there somewhere?
Chris Styles
<adde...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1161703980.8...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Bottom of page #4
For domesic floors > 4.5m span, 2 struts at 1/3 spacing...
Chris Styles
> mounting, as it were, it doesn't all have to be wood.
Ahh... okay, that makes sense
> It is much easier to fit than noggings, as any slight error in length is
> accommodated by adjusting the angle of fitment.
But the length, andgle and distance between the joists are all related, so
if I cut slightly too long, the angle will no longer be correct for the
400mm...spacing. Fitting it at an arbitrary angle will mean the strut wont
butt nicely onto the joist. It probably doesnt matter, just seems like
shoddyness...
Christian McArdle
> if I cut slightly too long, the angle will no longer be correct for the
> 400mm...spacing. Fitting it at an arbitrary angle will mean the strut wont
> butt nicely onto the joist. It probably doesnt matter, just seems like
> shoddyness...
Obviously you should try your best to be accurate. However, 2mm won't make
the slightest difference with herringbone. With a nogging, 2mm inaccuracy is
as wide as an ocean.
Christian.
Weatherlawyer
The herringboning is to stop the joists twisting, as long spans will
tend to do so. Noggings are generally applied to stiffen floors and
support overlapping boards. They are used in walls to support
radiators/shelves etc and if filling the full width of the stud have
the same effect as herringboned strut or strapping.
Since the studwork in walls is generally the same material as the
noggings, they also stop the studs moving sideways. I can't for the
life of me understand how steel studding manages to stay up without
it's equivalent.
John Rumm
> I'm less clear on which is superior, herringbone struts or noggins, and
> why - in these days of mitre saws, cutting solid noggins to an exact
> fit is no hassle.
You can cut diagonal timber herringbone easily with a mitre saw..
probably cheaper since it only needs to be quite skinny. The slight
advantage of the galvanised stuff is it takes less height and hence can
be simpler to get pipes past.
--
Cheers,
John.
/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Staffbull
from top of one joist to bottom of next, likewise bootom of same joist
to top, makes an X between joists, makes em stiff as F*&K
The Natural Philosopher
Nick H
d...@gglz.com Wrote:
>
>
> I'm less clear on which is superior, herringbone struts or noggins,
> and
> why - in these days of mitre saws, cutting solid noggins to an exact
> fit is no hassle.
> -
Herringbone struts are far superior to solid noggins but will take a
bit longer to put in. The problem with solid bracing is that any
shrinkage in the joists will cause the noggins to loosen causing sqeaks
etc, whereas with herringbone stuts any joist shrinkage ( which is
mostly across the grain i.e. reducing the depth ) will actually tighten
the struts. I've recently had to take up two different wooden floors and
then glue wedges into solid noggins to stop them sqeaking. Its a fact
that a lot of sqeaking floors can be traced to poorly fitting solid
bracing.
--
Nick H
Christian McArdle
> tend to do so. Noggings are generally applied to stiffen floors and
> support overlapping boards.
Properly installed herringbone stutting will also stiffen the floor. It is
effectively a solid nogging, with all the redundant wood removed, and only
the actually stressed bits remaining.
Obviously, supporting boards is another matter!
Christian.
The Natural Philosopher
>> The herringboning is to stop the joists twisting, as long spans will
>> tend to do so. Noggings are generally applied to stiffen floors and
>> support overlapping boards.
>
> Properly installed herringbone stutting will also stiffen the floor. It is
> effectively a solid nogging, with all the redundant wood removed, and only
> the actually stressed bits remaining.
>
Not quite, as others have pointed out, joist shrinkage or strut
shrinkage is more easily accommodated than with a solid noggin -
assuming the things are screwed down tightly.
Christian McArdle
> is more easily accommodated than with a solid noggin - assuming the things
> are screwed down tightly.
Please sir! I mentioned it first!
Christian.
Vince
> Herringbone is superior in every respect:
> 1. Lighter (less dead load) 2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less
cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run cables/pipework. 5. Less
susceptible to expansion/contraction.
> Christian.
than a full depth timber strut, Ive had many complaints in the past of full
depth struts causing squeaking, this is mainly due to caps that can occur in
wide timber, the herringbone rules this out completely as its fitted tightly
from top to bottom and vice versa, its a no brainer
--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/herringbone-straps-instead-of-noggins-296762-.htm
tabb...@gmail.com
> replying to Christian McArdle, Vince wrote:
> > Herringbone is superior in every respect:
> > 1. Lighter (less dead load) 2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less
> cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run cables/pipework. 5. Less
> susceptible to expansion/contraction.
> > Christian.
>
> I absolutely agree christian, I believe they work as racking strut far more
> than a full depth timber strut, Ive had many complaints in the past of full
> depth struts causing squeaking, this is mainly due to caps that can occur in
> wide timber, the herringbone rules this out completely as its fitted tightly
> from top to bottom and vice versa, its a no brainer
NT
Dave W
"pamela" <inv...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:XnsA6A1850...@81.171.118.178...
> will it will stay there. Do their mods censor replies they don't
> like?
>
> http://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/herringbone-straps-instead-of-n
> oggins-296762-.htm
I replied to tabbypurr on the web page, saying that as Vince didn't see that
he was replying 10 years too late he wouldn't understand "portal" or
"newsgroup", but as my text included "HomeOwnersClub is an evil organisation
that steals posts from other groups", I doubt it will be approved. It looks
like their mods didn't understand "portal" either.
--
Dave
Tim+
ancient messages to generate traffic. I don't see how they can "steal"
something that was freely given and in the public domain.
Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
Dave W
"Tim+" <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ntqq6m$e76$1...@dont-email.me...
>>
>> I replied to tabbypurr on the web page, saying that as Vince didn't see
>> that
>> he was replying 10 years too late he wouldn't understand "portal" or
>> "newsgroup", but as my text included "HomeOwnersClub is an evil
>> organisation
>> that steals posts from other groups", I doubt it will be approved. It
>> looks
>> like their mods didn't understand "portal" either.
>
> They are evil because they provide such a crap interface and resurrect
> ancient messages to generate traffic. I don't see how they can "steal"
> something that was freely given and in the public domain.
>
> Tim
>
> --
> Please don't feed the trolls
and pass it off as their own.
--
Dave W
harry
> I'm about to put floor joists in my loft so I can board it for storage.
> These herringbone straps look like a pretty convenient way of avoiding
> timber noggins.
>
> Question is, how many should I use on a 4.2m span?
>
> One either end and one in the middle? One every 900mm ?
>
> Any sugegstions welcome.
>
> Cheers
> Chris
>
>
> http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea/searchresults.jsp;jsessionid=0S55C3AK1QLDOCSTHZOSFFA?_dyncharset=UTF-8&howMany=15&searchText=herring
rick
> replying to Christian McArdle, Vince wrote:
>> Herringbone is superior in every respect: 1. Lighter (less dead load)
>> 2. Cheaper (less wood) 3. Easier to install (less
> cutting, less precision required) 4. Easier to run cables/pipework. 5. Less
> susceptible to expansion/contraction.
>> Christian.
>
> I absolutely agree christian, I believe they work as racking strut far more
> than a full depth timber strut, Ive had many complaints in the past of full
> depth struts causing squeaking, this is mainly due to caps that can
> occur in
> wide timber, the herringbone rules this out completely as its fitted
> tightly
> from top to bottom and vice versa, its a no brainer
Tim Lamb
<rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> writes
noisy until they introduced chipboard.
Is there a way round this? Glue? Screws? Talcum powder?
--
Tim Lamb
Vir Campestris
> They are evil because they provide such a crap interface and resurrect
> ancient messages to generate traffic. I don't see how they can "steal"
> something that was freely given and in the public domain.
same way google groups does - with the date clearly posted at the top.
It's their users who can't understand dates.
Andy
Tim+
> On 14/10/2016 15:30, Tim+ wrote:
>> They are evil because they provide such a crap interface and resurrect
>> ancient messages to generate traffic. I don't see how they can "steal"
>> something that was freely given and in the public domain.
>
> They don't resurrect ancient messages.
posts being promoted as top posts or unanswered question with no reference
to the age of the messages they're promoting.
> They post them up in much the
> same way google groups does - with the date clearly posted at the top.
promote old messages to generate traffic.
>
> It's their users who can't understand dates.
doing so because they don't know how to read dates? No, it's because HOH is
deliberately making it hard to see the dates and/or promoting old threads.
Sure, there will be a few numpties but it's clear that the majority or
responders have no idea that they're responding to old messages.
alan_m
>
> They don't resurrect ancient messages. They post them up in much the
> same way google groups does - with the date clearly posted at the top.
>
with no indication of the date they were posted. Its only later that
users of that site are given any indication that the question may have
been posted 10 or 15 years earlier.
The site promotes historic questions as though they were posted yesterday.
There is also another list of topics titled ' do have answers to these
questions' with no dates at all given
--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Vir Campestris
> Wrong. They do. Just have a look at the website and you'll see ancient
> posts being promoted as top posts
>
> The site promotes historic questions as though they were posted yesterday.
Andy