ESWA radiant heating panels

[Ashley Stevens]

I am buying a new house that uses an unusual heating system. Apparently it
is quite common in
Scandanavia (eg Norway). It uses ESWA infra-red radiant panels in the
ceiling. Part of the
house (the bit that is a more recent extension) also has electic under-floor
heating.

The ESWA panels are apparently rather like the electirc heating elements in
a car windscreen,
and are mounted above the ceiling. Anyway, a few of them have failed. The
house was originally
built in 1973. The vendor told me that the panels have an expected life-time
of about 25 years.

I had never heard of this heating system before. Anyway, my questions are :-

1. Does anyone know where I can purchase replacements for these? I did a web
search,
and the only hits were in New Zealand, Canada and one in South Africa
(none in Scandanavia).

2. Likely cost of replacements?

3. Any opinions/experience on these panels to share?

Thanks very much

Ashley Stevens

[jfe...@cix.compulink.co.uk]

>
> Ceiling heating is just such a grossly stupid idea that I can't see
> the Norwegians falling for it.
>
>

But it didn't stop the NHS from installing it in Swindon ;-0.

Penny

---------------
---------------
---------------

[Peter Parry]

On 17 Feb 2000 06:49:15 GMT, jfe...@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:

>> Ceiling heating is just such a grossly stupid idea that I can't see
>> the Norwegians falling for it.
>>
>>
>
>But it didn't stop the NHS from installing it in Swindon ;-0.

It didn't stop a lot of (mainly) public authorities - mainly because
its installation cost was low. Those that specified it rarely had to
live with it.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk

[Ashley Stevens]

Peter Parry <pe...@wppltd.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mq7massa31dvue8d6...@4ax.com...
> Most people who had to suffer it try to forget it. We had a house
> with it in once for 18 months. It cost an absolute fortune and was
> the most uncomfortable and ineffective form of heating I've ever
> encountered

Oh dear, doesn't sound good. Yes, I was expecting it to cost a
lot to run. The vendor said his electricity bill is £232/month, but
then I wasn't overly surprised, as this house also has a swimming
pool which is heated electrically as well. From what I can gather,
this is a normalish bill for a house with an electrically heated pool.

As regards not having them in Scandanavia, it seems to be true.
This is URL I found from a web search :-

http://www.es.co.nz/~nrsave/4.htm

No one's answered my main question : Where can you get them?

Ashley

[Peter Parry]

On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:09:20 -0000, "Ashley Stevens"
<ash...@studio-1.co.uk> wrote:

>Oh dear, doesn't sound good.

They are not, apart from being expensive the system was very
uncomfortable producing a dry layer of hot air in the top half of the
room and cold air at the bottom. Really quite nasty.

Repairing them involves dismantling the ceiling completely, they lurk
above the plasterboard. (you also usually find the ceilings have
often been covered with that pinnacle of Essex taste - Artex - they
crack new plaster within days.)

>Yes, I was expecting it to cost a
>lot to run. The vendor said his electricity bill is £232/month, but
>then I wasn't overly surprised, as this house also has a swimming
>pool which is heated electrically as well.

Check the bills!!

>No one's answered my main question : Where can you get them?

Eswa (0171 735 0043) might work. THe BT phone search came up with
Eswa Ltd Elec Htg Contrs, 32-40 Monkton St, SE11, London.(020) 7582
4300.

I really wouldn't bother though - certainly don't contemplate repair
until you have tried the horrid system for a few months.

[N Finnigan]

Peter Parry <pe...@wppltd.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mq7massa31dvue8d6...@4ax.com...
>

> Man speaks to you with forked tongue, electric wall radiator type
> heaters are quite common in Scandinavian countries because the
> extraordinary levels of insulation and heat recovery mean that for
> much of the year the heating load is quite small.

And yet they seem to use more energy per capita then the UK.

> Electrically
> heated hot water underfloor systems are also popular. Don't forget
> that abundant hydroelectric power means electricity is the cheapest

^ and nuclear

> form of energy in those countries whereas it is the most expensive
> here.

[donald McCabe]

On the subject of heating costs - has everyone else in the UK seen the
rise of heating oil to nearly 20 pence per Litre in the last few months -

or do I live in the wrong part of the world ???
- would nearly drive one to Economy 7 !!

Don.

[Simon Avery]

donald McCabe <dmcc...@nortelnetworksDOT.com> wrote:

Hello donald

dM> On the subject of heating costs - has everyone else in the UK
dM> seen the rise of heating oil to nearly 20 pence per Litre in the
dM> last few months -

Aye, though I didn't realise it was quite that much.

dM> or do I live in the wrong part of the world ???

I think it's pretty much national, or even global, since the crude oil
price rose. Which it's always doing, then going down again, then up
again, so I don't pay it much heed.

dM> - would nearly drive one to Economy 7 !!

Steady on, old chap - surely not /that/ bad?

--
Simon Avery, Devon, UK
Non-plaintext messages are deleted automatically and not read.

[John]

donald McCabe <dmcc...@nortelnetworksDOT.com> wrote in message
news:38AFD6BC...@nortelnetworksDOT.com...
> On the subject of heating costs - has everyone else in the UK seen the
> rise of heating oil to nearly 20 pence per Litre in the last few months -

>
> or do I live in the wrong part of the world ???

16 pence in East Yorkshire last week (Friday 18th Feb)

[David Pashley]

In article <88pfe1$6us$2...@supernews.com>, John
<jo...@ASboilerdoc.karoo.co.uk> writes

19p in Oxfordshire last week. :-(

David

[Copperhead713]

I wish I knew the answer to this also. We have had it since 1968 and LOVE it! So easy and so warm! No vents, no ductwork, and the warmth feels like the sun shining on you, very cozy. However, a panel has gone out in the bath and we would love to have it repaired/replaced.

[fred]

In article <57990103-3b1f-4415...@googlegroups.com>,
Copperhead713 <drobbi...@gmail.com> writes

>On Wednesday, February 16, 2000 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Ashley Stevens wrote:
>>

<snip 13yr old blah>

>
>I wish I knew the answer to this also. We have had it since 1968 and LOVE it! So
>easy and so warm! No vents, no ductwork, and the warmth feels like the sun
>shining on you, very cozy. However, a panel has gone out in the bath and we
>would love to have it repaired/replaced.

Another stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, fucking cunt
trolling googlegroups and responding to a 13 year old post. How fucking
stupid are you?

If you want to find a replacement panel for your system, make a fresh
post.

Nothing personal, just an educational post.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

[Graham.]

Also, whois puts him, or rather his ISP, in Conover, North Carolina.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

[Phil L]

Copperhead713 wrote:


fuck off you thick cunt

[Brian Gaff]

Yes I was just wondering about that. Seems to be a bit of a time warp.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"fred" <n...@for.mail> wrote in message news:7DwesITP8fLSFwcQ@y.z...

[dochol...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, September 10, 2013 8:46:23 AM UTC+1, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Yes I was just wondering about that. Seems to be a bit of a time warp.
>

Quite! Lots of people complaining about paying 20p/litre for heating oil...

[Fredxx]

Try:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ESWA+heating

Try the first hit. They may be able to help.

[d_wh...@talk21.com]

On Wednesday, 16 February 2000 08:00:00 UTC, Ashley Stevens wrote:
> I am buying a new house that uses an unusual heating system. Apparently it
> is quite common in
> Scandanavia (eg Norway). It uses ESWA infra-red radiant panels in the
> ceiling. Part of the
> house (the bit that is a more recent extension) also has electic under-floor
> heating.
>
> The ESWA panels are apparently rather like the electirc heating elements in
> a car windscreen,
> and are mounted above the ceiling. Anyway, a few of them have failed. The
> house was originally
> built in 1973. The vendor told me that the panels have an expected life-time
> of about 25 years.
>
> I had never heard of this heating system before. Anyway, my questions are :-
>
> 1. Does anyone know where I can purchase replacements for these? I did a web
> search,
> and the only hits were in New Zealand, Canada and one in South Africa
> (none in Scandanavia).
>
> 2. Likely cost of replacements?
>
> 3. Any opinions/experience on these panels to share?
>
> Thanks very much
>
> Ashley Stevens

Hi try www.eswa.co.uk & they are located
Address: 32 Monkton St, London SE11 4TX

Phone:020 7582 4300

They have been around for about 50 years in the UK

[fred]

In article <vcl8a9tfoan0v9cum...@4ax.com>, Chris Hogg
<m...@privacy.net> writes

>On Sun, 8 Dec 2013 02:41:16 -0800 (PST), d_wh...@talk21.com wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, 16 February 2000 08:00:00 UTC, Ashley Stevens wrote:

><snip>

>>> 1. Does anyone know where I can purchase replacements for these?
>

>>Hi try www.es.co.uk & they are located

>>Address: 32 Monkton St, London SE11 4TX
>>

>>Phone:020 75 4300

>>
>>They have been around for about 50 years in the UK
>

>I doubt if the Mr Stevens is much interested now, nearly fourteen
>years after his post!
>
It's the same spamming cunt that repeatedly refreshes this thread.

A company well worth avoiding IMV.

[rgall...@gmail.com]

Hello Ashley, and I am wondering if you have had any answers to your questions? My wife and I are looking to buy a relatively new house with this system.

Thank you for your time,

Roland

[Tim Watts]

On 28/12/14 13:35, rgall...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello Ashley,

Que?

> and I am wondering if you have had any answers to your
> questions? My wife and I are looking to buy a relatively new house
> with this system.

If this is a serious question:

If these are ESWA ceiling panels like the ones my old flat had, then
don't. Horrible system and about the most expensive way of deploying
electrical heating imaginable.

I'm aware ESWA do other panels, not just ceiling, but I will assume
ceiling in the absence of information as I know that system.

Takes forever to heat the room, without the benefit of underfloor
heating of feeling comfortable at much lower temperatures.

The panels (well, sheets of plastic with basically what looks like a
1970's retro fit rear car window heater built in, thick visible tracks)
are fragile and easily damaged.

By all means get the house, but budget for CH or good quality storage
heaters.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <rfk5nb-...@squidward.dionic.net>,

Tim Watts <tw_u...@dionic.net> wrote:
> On 28/12/14 13:35, rgall...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Hello Ashley,

> Que?

> > and I am wondering if you have had any answers to your
> > questions? My wife and I are looking to buy a relatively new house
> > with this system.

> If this is a serious question:

Looks to me like an attempt at a subtle ad.

--
*Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Tim Watts]

On 28/12/14 18:49, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <rfk5nb-...@squidward.dionic.net>,
> Tim Watts <tw_u...@dionic.net> wrote:
>> On 28/12/14 13:35, rgall...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Hello Ashley,
>
>> Que?
>
>>> and I am wondering if you have had any answers to your
>>> questions? My wife and I are looking to buy a relatively new house
>>> with this system.
>
>> If this is a serious question:
>
> Looks to me like an attempt at a subtle ad.
>

very subtle seeing as I just publicly rubbished the damn things with
first hand experience :)

[Rod Speed]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:547d38e...@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <rfk5nb-...@squidward.dionic.net>,
> Tim Watts <tw_u...@dionic.net> wrote:
>> On 28/12/14 13:35, rgall...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > Hello Ashley,
>
>> Que?
>
>> > and I am wondering if you have had any answers to your
>> > questions? My wife and I are looking to buy a relatively new house
>> > with this system.
>
>> If this is a serious question:
>
> Looks to me like an attempt at a subtle ad.

More fool you. It looks much more like an attempt
to email by someone who doesn’t have much of a
clue about usenet and that is why nothing is quoted.

[markso...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, February 16, 2000 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-8, Ashley Stevens wrote:
> I am buying a new house that uses an unusual heating system. Apparently it
> is quite common in
> Scandanavia (eg Norway). It uses ESWA infra-red radiant panels in the
> ceiling. Part of the
> house (the bit that is a more recent extension) also has electic under-floor
> heating.
>
> The ESWA panels are apparently rather like the electirc heating elements in
> a car windscreen,
> and are mounted above the ceiling. Anyway, a few of them have failed. The
> house was originally
> built in 1973. The vendor told me that the panels have an expected life-time
> of about 25 years.
>
> I had never heard of this heating system before. Anyway, my questions are :-
>
> 1. Does anyone know where I can purchase replacements for these? I did a web
> search,
> and the only hits were in New Zealand, Canada and one in South Africa
> (none in Scandanavia).
>
> 2. Likely cost of replacements?
>
> 3. Any opinions/experience on these panels to share?
>
> Thanks very much
>
> Ashley Stevens

Ashley,
I am very familiar with ESWA Radiant Heating panels. I designed many throughout the ski areas in Colorado and throughout. Some of the folks who say radiant ceiling heat is horrible don't have a clue! In a well insulated home with the proper number of panels per the home heat loss calculations, radiant ceiling heat is the most comfortable heat around. Feels like the sun is gently shining on you.. Wonderful! Radiant heating heats objects not the air, so the guy who said there is a layer of warm air above is crazy. With high ceiling, you can also supplement it with ESWA floor foils or cables. I know where to get replacement panels.

[Tim+]

Oh for, feck's sake, how many times is that you've tried to drum up
business here? I guess you've learned not to put a web link in now, just
invite contacts. It's still touring for business AKA spam. Be a good chap
and just bugger off eh?

Tim

[Tim Watts]

On 27/02/15 20:06, markso...@gmail.com wrote:

> Ashley, I am very familiar with ESWA Radiant Heating panels. I
> designed many throughout the ski areas in Colorado and throughout.
> Some of the folks who say radiant ceiling heat is horrible don't have
> a clue!

This one does and they're shit.

My first flat had ESWA panels. Took forever to warm up, cost a bloody
fortune to run as half the heat warmed the bloke upstairs and they were
as fragile as fuck.

So please don't tell me "how good they are".

[polygonum]

On 27/02/2015 20:06, markso...@gmail.com wrote:
> Ashley,
> I am very familiar with ESWA Radiant Heating panels. I designed many throughout the ski areas in Colorado and throughout. Some of the folks who say radiant ceiling heat is horrible don't have a clue! In a well insulated home with the proper number of panels per the home heat loss calculations, radiant ceiling heat is the most comfortable heat around. Feels like the sun is gently shining on you.. Wonderful! Radiant heating heats objects not the air, so the guy who said there is a layer of warm air above is crazy. With high ceiling, you can also supplement it with ESWA floor foils or cables. I know where to get replacement panels.

Ceiling heating has to be one of the nastiest forms of heating I have
ever experienced in a domestic setting - a flat I temporarily lived in.

--
Rod

[meow...@care2.com]

Electric ceiling panels violate some of the most basic principles of CH. They use electricity without storage, which is 3x the cost of gas, 2x the cost of E7. Most heat is applied near the celing, when most is needed near or at floor level. In short they're daft.


NT

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <ht27sb-...@squidward.dionic.net>,

They work very well if you turn the house upside down.

--
*What are the pink bits in my tyres? Cyclists & Joggers*

[Rod Speed]

<meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:00123d44-5d47-414a...@googlegroups.com...

> On Friday, February 27, 2015 at 9:30:35 PM UTC, polygonum wrote:
>> On 27/02/2015 20:06, markso...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > Ashley,
>> > I am very familiar with ESWA Radiant Heating panels. I designed many
>> > throughout the ski areas in Colorado and throughout. Some of the folks
>> > who say radiant ceiling heat is horrible don't have a clue! In a well
>> > insulated home with the proper number of panels per the home heat loss
>> > calculations, radiant ceiling heat is the most comfortable heat around.
>> > Feels like the sun is gently shining on you.. Wonderful! Radiant
>> > heating heats objects not the air, so the guy who said there is a layer
>> > of warm air above is crazy. With high ceiling, you can also supplement
>> > it with ESWA floor foils or cables. I know where to get replacement
>> > panels.
>>
>> Ceiling heating has to be one of the nastiest forms of heating I have
>> ever experienced in a domestic setting - a flat I temporarily lived in.

> Electric ceiling panels violate some of the most basic principles of CH.

Yes.

> They use electricity without storage, which is 3x the cost of gas, 2x the
> cost of E7.

Yes.

> Most heat is applied near the celing, when most is needed near or at floor
> level.

Nope, they radiate directly to the people you want to heat.

> In short they're daft.

Nope, there are just better ways to heat.

[harryagain]

<markso...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2ade05d-8f47-4751...@googlegroups.com...

What you get is cold feet.
The top of your head is lovely and warm.

Nowhere nearly as good as underfloor heating.

[polygonum]

On 28/02/2015 00:10, meow...@care2.com wrote:
> Electric ceiling panels violate some of the most basic principles of CH. They use electricity without storage, which is 3x the cost of gas, 2x the cost of E7. Most heat is applied near the celing, when most is needed near or at floor level. In short they're daft.

It is also simply very unpleasant having a head that is being heated and
cold feet.

--
Rod

[Tim Watts]

It had my first real flu in that flat.

I had every ceiling panel flat out for 2 weeks.

**** you should have seen that quarter's electricity bill!

[meow...@care2.com]

they do. But more of the heat fails to get radiated, and ends up near the ceiling, creating an undesirable temperature gradient.

Besides, radiated heat isnt whats wanted at home, since it creates temperature hot & cold areas on the skin.

> > In short they're daft.
>
> Nope, there are just better ways to heat.

so much better and cheaper that fitting them is daft. Bit like you Rodney.


NT

[polygonum]

I think we have an important finding here! I too had my first ever real
flu in the flat with ceiling heating. It was in January, on the Fylde
coast, and (very unusually) deep snow.

--
Rod

[Tim Watts]

I noticed a fair few new flats in Tunbridge Wells are being fitted with
"electric radiators" (there's a *lot* of brownfield new developements
and I'm nosey).

I must find out if they are day time electric or storage.

Odd because I though gas CH was pretty standard for new flats these days
- and yes, there's mains gas in the respective areas.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <bun8sb-...@squidward.dionic.net>,

Tim Watts <tw_u...@dionic.net> wrote:
> I noticed a fair few new flats in Tunbridge Wells are being fitted with
> "electric radiators" (there's a *lot* of brownfield new developements
> and I'm nosey).

> I must find out if they are day time electric or storage.

> Odd because I though gas CH was pretty standard for new flats these days
> - and yes, there's mains gas in the respective areas.

But is that gas brought into the flats?

It's going to save quite a bit of money on a new build using only
electricity. And given the current housing market, anything sells.

--
*Just remember...if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off*

[newshound]

On 28/02/2015 08:31, harryagain wrote:

>
> What you get is cold feet.
> The top of your head is lovely and warm.
>
> Nowhere nearly as good as underfloor heating.
>
>

That gives you a very warm bum if you are sitting on the floor though.
(Memories from St Catherine's college nearly 50 years ago).

[Tim Watts]

On 28/02/15 13:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <bun8sb-...@squidward.dionic.net>,
> Tim Watts <tw_u...@dionic.net> wrote:
>> I noticed a fair few new flats in Tunbridge Wells are being fitted with
>> "electric radiators" (there's a *lot* of brownfield new developements
>> and I'm nosey).
>
>> I must find out if they are day time electric or storage.
>
>> Odd because I though gas CH was pretty standard for new flats these days
>> - and yes, there's mains gas in the respective areas.
>
> But is that gas brought into the flats?

There are flats with CH in the 10-20 year old build range.

> It's going to save quite a bit of money on a new build using only
> electricity. And given the current housing market, anything sells.
>

Cheap tarts I guess - flog the flat and condemn the occupants to 3x
expensive heating. And it's impossible for a leaseholder to retro fit
gas - their only option is Economy 7.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <lh09sb-...@squidward.dionic.net>,

Tim Watts <tw_u...@dionic.net> wrote:
> >> Odd because I though gas CH was pretty standard for new flats these
> >> days - and yes, there's mains gas in the respective areas.
> >
> > But is that gas brought into the flats?

> There are flats with CH in the 10-20 year old build range.

Well, yes. But they may have had to try harder to sell flats then.

--
*How's my driving? Call 999*

[Rod Speed]

<meow...@care2.com> wrote

> Rod Speed wrote
>> <meow...@care2.com> wrote

>>> polygonum wrote

>>>> markso...@gmail.com wrote

>>> Most heat is applied near the celing, when
>>> most is needed near or at floor level.

>> Nope, they radiate directly to the people you want to heat.

> they do. But more of the heat fails to get radiated,

That's not right. They work the same way that timber panelling
on stone walls do, increases the surface temperature and that
has a very significant effect on the comfort, particularly when
you aren't just heating all the surfaces and air to a higher temp.

> and ends up near the ceiling, creating an undesirable temperature
> gradient.

That heat gradient isn't even noticeable to the occupants of the room.

> Besides, radiated heat isnt whats wanted at home,

One of the reasons a room feels too cold
is because of the surface temperatures.

> since it creates temperature hot & cold areas on the skin.

Must be why we don't use fires which do that in spades.

>>> In short they're daft.

>> Nope, there are just better ways to heat.

> so much better and cheaper that fitting them is daft.

That's certainly true when much cheaper gas is available.

[john james]

"newshound" <news...@stevejqr.plus.com> wrote in message
news:7ZCdne5J19EtWmzJ...@brightview.co.uk...

I got the reverse effect with a hotel, I had lie on the floor to
get warm at all. By far the worst I have ever had hotel wise.

[Tim Watts]

UFH is super in winter - had it in the Forest of Dean[1] forestry cabins.

OTOH in non winter times it's not something you can turn on for 30 mins
on a chilly evening - by the time you feel it it's too late, you will be
boiled for the next 12 hours.

It's good in bathrooms for getting the floor dry though :)

[1] Anyone who's not been, highly recommended, if for nothing else the
derelict mines, caves and proximity to *so much* cool stuff.

[polygonum]

On 28/02/2015 08:31, harryagain wrote:

> Nowhere nearly as good as underfloor heating.

Underfloor heating is an absolute no-no for anyone with erythromelalgia.
Underfloor cooling can, however, be much appreciated - even an ordinary
concrete floor.

Horses, courses.

--
Rod

[meow...@care2.com]

short on clues as usual

[Gazz]

"Graham." wrote in message
news:1d3s29t96pk6jejgc...@4ax.com...

On Mon, 9 Sep 2013 18:02:07 +0100, fred <n...@for.mail> wrote:

>In article <57990103-3b1f-4415...@googlegroups.com>,
>Copperhead713 <drobbi...@gmail.com> writes
>
>>On Wednesday, February 16, 2000 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Ashley Stevens wrote:
>>>
><snip 13yr old blah>
>>
>>I wish I knew the answer to this also. We have had it since 1968 and LOVE
>>it! So
>>easy and so warm! No vents, no ductwork, and the warmth feels like the
>>sun
>>shining on you, very cozy. However, a panel has gone out in the bath and
>>we
>>would love to have it repaired/replaced.
>
>Another stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, fucking cunt
>trolling googlegroups and responding to a 13 year old post. How fucking
>stupid are you?
>
>If you want to find a replacement panel for your system, make a fresh
>post.
>
>Nothing personal, just an educational post.
>Also, whois puts him, or rather his ISP, in Conover, North Carolina.

Well, his mention of 'heating ducts and vents' told me he was a merkin,
can't believe they still think hot air is the best way to heat a home
nowadays, especially when you see the state most of the humidifiers that are
part of the system to try and stop it drying the house out too much, amazed
legionaries disease isnt more common over there.

[Gazz]

wrote in message
news:00123d44-5d47-414a...@googlegroups.com...

True, the whole estate my parents live on was built in the 70's and every
house had ceiling heating, these ones are a black woven mat, copper strips
each side for power conductors sewn to the matting and encased in laminated
sleeves,

fuck knows how much power the whole lot would use, the ones in my parents
place were disconnected in the 80's, along with almost all the other houses
in the estate when the owners realised just how shit the system was,

main problem was no thermal inertia, so the damn things had to be on all the
time you wanted heat, turn em off and it gets cold fast, and it was rather
expensive to run even back then (i mentioned before that aparantly they were
the best thing to have with the advent of nuclear electricity too cheap to
meter... shame that never materialised)

and despite what the merkin bullshitter bloke who sells the shitty things
claims, people who have to live with the system complain of temperature
gradients, a roasting head and frozen feet, and eye watering electricity
bills.

[Tim Watts]

The ESWA shitpanels in my flat were like an Allegro rear window heater
(thick foil strips) laminated bewteen 2 sheets of plastic.

I found that when the dopey bloke upstairs flooded his kitchen and took
out my ceiling.

Given the minimal insulation between 240V and the surface and the fact
they were lobbed in ceilings covered in plasterboard nailed up by pikey
builders, I rate them as sodding dangerous.

> main problem was no thermal inertia, so the damn things had to be on all
> the time you wanted heat, turn em off and it gets cold fast, and it was
> rather expensive to run even back then (i mentioned before that
> aparantly they were the best thing to have with the advent of nuclear
> electricity too cheap to meter... shame that never materialised)
>
> and despite what the merkin bullshitter bloke who sells the shitty
> things claims, people who have to live with the system complain of
> temperature gradients, a roasting head and frozen feet, and eye watering
> electricity bills.

All of the above...

[meow...@care2.com]

Its nice indulging spammers with their request for our time & attention, and an honest review of their products


NT

[john james]

"Huge" <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote in message
news:clgc1k...@mid.individual.net...

> On 2015-02-28, Tim Watts <tw_u...@dionic.net> wrote:
>> On 28/02/15 17:21, john james wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "newshound" <news...@stevejqr.plus.com> wrote in message
>>> news:7ZCdne5J19EtWmzJ...@brightview.co.uk...
>>>> On 28/02/2015 08:31, harryagain wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What you get is cold feet.
>>>>> The top of your head is lovely and warm.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nowhere nearly as good as underfloor heating.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> That gives you a very warm bum if you are sitting on the floor though.
>>>> (Memories from St Catherine's college nearly 50 years ago).
>>>
>>> I got the reverse effect with a hotel, I had lie on the floor to
>>> get warm at all. By far the worst I have ever had hotel wise.
>>
>> UFH is super in winter - had it in the Forest of Dean[1] forestry cabins.
>>
>> OTOH in non winter times it's not something you can turn on for 30 mins
>> on a chilly evening - by the time you feel it it's too late, you will be
>> boiled for the next 12 hours.
>

> UFH is effectively a giant storage radiator,

And one which you have no control over the movement of
heat from the storage to the room in any practical sense.

with all the disadvantages
> that brings.
>
>
> --
> Today is Setting Orange, the 60th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3181
> I don't have an attitude problem. If you have a problem with my attitude,
> that's your problem.

[meow...@care2.com]

On Sunday, March 1, 2015 at 7:59:42 PM UTC, john james wrote:
> "Huge" <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote in message
> news:clgc1k...@mid.individual.net...
> > On 2015-02-28, Tim Watts <tw_u...@dionic.net> wrote:
> >> On 28/02/15 17:21, john james wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "newshound" <news...@stevejqr.plus.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:7ZCdne5J19EtWmzJ...@brightview.co.uk...
> >>>> On 28/02/2015 08:31, harryagain wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What you get is cold feet.
> >>>>> The top of your head is lovely and warm.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Nowhere nearly as good as underfloor heating.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> That gives you a very warm bum if you are sitting on the floor though.
> >>>> (Memories from St Catherine's college nearly 50 years ago).
> >>>
> >>> I got the reverse effect with a hotel, I had lie on the floor to
> >>> get warm at all. By far the worst I have ever had hotel wise.
> >>
> >> UFH is super in winter - had it in the Forest of Dean[1] forestry cabins.
> >>
> >> OTOH in non winter times it's not something you can turn on for 30 mins
> >> on a chilly evening - by the time you feel it it's too late, you will be
> >> boiled for the next 12 hours.
> >
> > UFH is effectively a giant storage radiator,
>
> And one which you have no control over the movement of
> heat from the storage to the room in any practical sense.
>
> with all the disadvantages
> > that brings.

All this is down to their installation without a proper set of controls though, its not a problem inherent in UFH.

Heat output is proportional to slab temp. UFH loop temp can be made dependant on outdoor temp differential, upto a set limit, to ensure excess heat isn't delivered.


NT

[john james]

<meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:c3e724da-e1ea-4823...@googlegroups.com...

No it's not. The problem is that once the heat is in the floor, there is no
practical way to control the rate at which heat comes out of the floor.

> its not a problem inherent in UFH.

Of course it is.

> Heat output is proportional to slab temp.

And there is no way to controls the slab temp in the short
term because of it's massive thermal inertia, particularly
when using the cheapest electrical power which you have
to do to make it competitive with gas.

> UFH loop temp can be made dependant on outdoor temp
> differential, upto a set limit, to ensure excess heat isn't delivered.

The problem is that that that happens later than
the time when you have to heat the slab because
that is when you get the electricity cheapest.

And once the heat is in the slab, you have no control
over the rate at which it comes out of the slab, if for
example the house doesn't have anyone in it and
you don't need to heat the house at the moment.

[meow...@care2.com]

Firstly gas CH powered UFH makes more sense than electric.
2ndly if the temp to which the loop is heated is dependant on outdoor temp, the slab heat output can be kept within the amount of output thats wanted. So during mild times its not heated too much, and in the middle of winter it gets its full heat. Its not difficult.

As for instant off-on, of course it wont do that, one has to use the proper control ahead of the time of demand. That doesn't suit all uses of course, but where it does its just basic control. I'm sure in a decade or 2 people will regard all the current ill-controlled UFH setups as unsatisfactory, as they are really.


NT

[john james]

<meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:f76a55ea-48d6-4c21...@googlegroups.com...

True. But has real downsides maintenance wise.

> 2ndly if the temp to which the loop is heated is dependant on outdoor
> temp,

That is a very poor criterion to use. What suits
the occupants if any is a much better criterion.

> the slab heat output can be kept within the amount of output
> thats wanted. So during mild times its not heated too much,
> and in the middle of winter it gets its full heat. Its not difficult.

But the problem is that UFH is very slow to react to changing
requirements by the occupants like when they have just arrived
unexpectedly and want the place comfortably warm after its
been left unheated when it was empty.

A hot air system works a lot better in that regard.

> As for instant off-on, of course it wont do that, one has
> to use the proper control ahead of the time of demand.

Not always feasible with some types of house use.

> That doesn't suit all uses of course,

But a hot air system suits a lot more of them.

> but where it does its just basic control. I'm sure in a decade
> or 2 people will regard all the current ill-controlled UFH
> setups as unsatisfactory, as they are really.

And I bet we see a lot more hot air systems being used
essentially because they don't have the maintenance
headaches and costs that come with hot water systems.

[meow...@care2.com]

On Monday, March 2, 2015 at 11:18:06 PM UTC, john james wrote:
> <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
> news:f76a55ea-48d6-4c21...@googlegroups.com...

> > Firstly gas CH powered UFH makes more sense than electric.
>
> True. But has real downsides maintenance wise.
>
> > 2ndly if the temp to which the loop is heated is dependant on outdoor
> > temp,

> > the slab heat output can be kept within the amount of output
> > thats wanted. So during mild times its not heated too much,
> > and in the middle of winter it gets its full heat. Its not difficult.

> But the problem is that UFH is very slow to react to changing
> requirements by the occupants like when they have just arrived
> unexpectedly and want the place comfortably warm after its
> been left unheated when it was empty.

that's not a problem of UFH, its a problem of a hypothetical designer expecting an apple to do an orange's job. A sensible design includes provision for quick heat, and of course that heat won't come from the UFH part of the system.


NT

[john james]

<meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:53f2773a-07a2-4a97...@googlegroups.com...

> On Monday, March 2, 2015 at 11:18:06 PM UTC, john james wrote:
>> <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
>> news:f76a55ea-48d6-4c21...@googlegroups.com...
>
>> > Firstly gas CH powered UFH makes more sense than electric.
>>
>> True. But has real downsides maintenance wise.
>>
>> > 2ndly if the temp to which the loop is heated is dependant on outdoor
>> > temp,
>> > the slab heat output can be kept within the amount of output
>> > thats wanted. So during mild times its not heated too much,
>> > and in the middle of winter it gets its full heat. Its not difficult.
>
>> But the problem is that UFH is very slow to react to changing
>> requirements by the occupants like when they have just arrived
>> unexpectedly and want the place comfortably warm after its
>> been left unheated when it was empty.

> that's not a problem of UFH,

Yes it is. The intrinsic problem is the massive thermal inertia
of any UFH system and the fact that there is no practical way
to control the rate at which heat gets out of the floor.

> its a problem of a hypothetical designer
> expecting an apple to do an orange's job.

Its impossible for any designer to know how
a particular house will be used over time.

> A sensible design includes provision for quick heat, and of
> course that heat won't come from the UFH part of the system.

And when they both use the same energy source, once you
have the system that provides quick heat, there isn't any
point in having UFH heating as well, essentially more than
doubling the cost of the total heating system.

[meow...@care2.com]

On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 2:42:46 AM UTC, john james wrote:
> <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
> news:53f2773a-07a2-4a97...@googlegroups.com...
> > On Monday, March 2, 2015 at 11:18:06 PM UTC, john james wrote:
> >> <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
> >> news:f76a55ea-48d6-4c21...@googlegroups.com...
> >
> >> > Firstly gas CH powered UFH makes more sense than electric.
> >>
> >> True. But has real downsides maintenance wise.
> >>
> >> > 2ndly if the temp to which the loop is heated is dependant on outdoor
> >> > temp,
> >> > the slab heat output can be kept within the amount of output
> >> > thats wanted. So during mild times its not heated too much,
> >> > and in the middle of winter it gets its full heat. Its not difficult.
> >
> >> But the problem is that UFH is very slow to react to changing
> >> requirements by the occupants like when they have just arrived
> >> unexpectedly and want the place comfortably warm after its
> >> been left unheated when it was empty.
>
> > that's not a problem of UFH,
>
> Yes it is. The intrinsic problem is the massive thermal inertia
> of any UFH system and the fact that there is no practical way
> to control the rate at which heat gets out of the floor.

with respect I did just describe how that can be done

> > its a problem of a hypothetical designer
> > expecting an apple to do an orange's job.
>
> Its impossible for any designer to know how
> a particular house will be used over time.

irrelevant

> > A sensible design includes provision for quick heat, and of
> > course that heat won't come from the UFH part of the system.
>
> And when they both use the same energy source, once you
> have the system that provides quick heat, there isn't any
> point in having UFH heating as well, essentially more than
> doubling the cost of the total heating system.

that would only be true if one relied on UFH for all the heat output. Which would be a foolish strategy, since it would force the end users into the sort of lousy strategy you criticise.


NT

[john james]

<meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:4eb4bd81-d8f5-465b...@googlegroups.com...

> On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 2:42:46 AM UTC, john james wrote:
>> <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
>> news:53f2773a-07a2-4a97...@googlegroups.com...
>> > On Monday, March 2, 2015 at 11:18:06 PM UTC, john james wrote:
>> >> <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:f76a55ea-48d6-4c21...@googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> >> > Firstly gas CH powered UFH makes more sense than electric.
>> >>
>> >> True. But has real downsides maintenance wise.
>> >>
>> >> > 2ndly if the temp to which the loop is heated is dependant on
>> >> > outdoor
>> >> > temp,
>> >> > the slab heat output can be kept within the amount of output
>> >> > thats wanted. So during mild times its not heated too much,
>> >> > and in the middle of winter it gets its full heat. Its not
>> >> > difficult.
>> >
>> >> But the problem is that UFH is very slow to react to changing
>> >> requirements by the occupants like when they have just arrived
>> >> unexpectedly and want the place comfortably warm after its
>> >> been left unheated when it was empty.
>>
>> > that's not a problem of UFH,
>>
>> Yes it is. The intrinsic problem is the massive thermal inertia
>> of any UFH system and the fact that there is no practical way
>> to control the rate at which heat gets out of the floor.

> with respect I did just describe how that can be done

No you did not.

>> > its a problem of a hypothetical designer
>> > expecting an apple to do an orange's job.
>>
>> Its impossible for any designer to know how
>> a particular house will be used over time.

> irrelevant

No.

>> > A sensible design includes provision for quick heat, and of
>> > course that heat won't come from the UFH part of the system.
>>
>> And when they both use the same energy source, once you
>> have the system that provides quick heat, there isn't any
>> point in having UFH heating as well, essentially more than
>> doubling the cost of the total heating system.

> that would only be true if one relied on UFH for all the heat output.

No.

> Which would be a foolish strategy, since it would force
> the end users into the sort of lousy strategy you criticise.

When there is another source of heat using the same
energy source, you need to justify the very considerable
cost of adding UFH to that.

[jrwal...@gmail.com]

Hot water UFH can work well when there is also a thermostatically
controlled radiator nearby to handle the short term variations
in heat gain or loss - from sunlight or opening doors.

I have a conservatory with hot water UFH. It uses a Danfoss "thermostat"
which is actually a PID controller. The adjacent room (door always open)
has a conventional radiator with TRV. The air temperature is very stable
and seldom fluctuates by more than 1 deg C.

John

[meow...@care2.com]

On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 9:29:39 AM UTC, john james wrote:
> <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message

> news:4eb4bd81-d8f5-465b...@googlegroups.com...

8><

> > that would only be true if one relied on UFH for all the heat output.

> > Which would be a foolish strategy, since it would force
> > the end users into the sort of lousy strategy you criticise.
>
> When there is another source of heat using the same
> energy source, you need to justify the very considerable
> cost of adding UFH to that.

I dont, the end user or spec builder does. And many do.


NT

[boysie...@gmail.com]

Eswa Gordon hants

[boysie...@gmail.com]

Please call me regarding imformation about ceiling heating 07946463773 thank you Alan boys

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

How strange.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
<boysie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b62c10db-2acf-4ad7...@googlegroups.com...

[Rod Speed]

Brian Gaff (Sofa) <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote

> How strange.

Nope, someone has just managed to post an email to usenet.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 16 May 2020 17:22:28 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest trollshit unread>

--
Marland answering senile Rodent's statement, "I don't leak":
"That’s because so much piss and shite emanates from your gob that there is
nothing left to exit normally, your arsehole has clammed shut through disuse
and the end of prick is only clear because you are such a Wanker."
Message-ID: <gm2h57...@mid.individual.net>

[Unknown]

Brian Gaff (Sofa) expressed precisely :
> How strange.
> Brian
>

Very strange indeed.

[Andrew]

Has anyone phoned him to find out yet ? :-)

[Tim+]

Somebody really ought to. 3 am maybe... ;-)

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

[Vir Campestris]

On 16/05/2020 18:58, Tim+ wrote:
> Somebody really ought to. 3 am maybe...;-)

Remember to withhold your number!

Andy