Colours of 1950s wireing.

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Dave Fawthrop

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Dec 17, 2006, 7:51:35 AM12/17/06
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My house is a 1950s 2 story semi.
I am connecting one fluorescent downstairs kitchen light in parallel with
another fluorescent, without taking up any more upstairs floorboards.

I have found a mass of single core PVC wires.

Does anyone remember what colours were used in the 1950s lights for wiring,
so that I can cut the right wires?

--
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

Harry Bloomfield

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Dec 17, 2006, 8:29:50 AM12/17/06
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After serious thinking Dave Fawthrop wrote :

> My house is a 1950s 2 story semi.
> I am connecting one fluorescent downstairs kitchen light in parallel with
> another fluorescent, without taking up any more upstairs floorboards.

> I have found a mass of single core PVC wires.

> Does anyone remember what colours were used in the 1950s lights for wiring,
> so that I can cut the right wires?

Red for live, black for neutral - exactly the same as until quite
recently.


1950's though would probably be VIR - rubber insulation which becomes
very brittle covered by a waxed woven cotton for protection, or rubber
with a tough rubber overlay for protection. So the VIR would look a
red/brown colour, rather than red - all well overdue for replacement.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk


David Hansen

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Dec 17, 2006, 8:42:13 AM12/17/06
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On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:51:35 +0000 someone who may be Dave Fawthrop
<inv...@hyphenologist.co.uk.invalid> wrote this:-

>My house is a 1950s 2 story semi.
>I am connecting one fluorescent downstairs kitchen light in parallel with
>another fluorescent, without taking up any more upstairs floorboards.

You should find a terminal block in the current fitting, which has
live neutral and earth terminals. Don't cut anything, just run a new
cable from this to the new fitting.

You have informed John Prescott I take it.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Dave Plowman (News)

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Dec 17, 2006, 8:41:07 AM12/17/06
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In article <0leao2t31a342qfpk...@4ax.com>,

Dave Fawthrop <inv...@hyphenologist.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> My house is a 1950s 2 story semi. I am connecting one fluorescent
> downstairs kitchen light in parallel with another fluorescent, without
> taking up any more upstairs floorboards.

> I have found a mass of single core PVC wires.

> Does anyone remember what colours were used in the 1950s lights for
> wiring, so that I can cut the right wires?

Red and black - same as up to recently.

--
*Change is inevitable ... except from vending machines *

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Weatherlawyer

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Dec 17, 2006, 8:45:49 AM12/17/06
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Dave Fawthrop wrote:
>
> Does anyone remember what colours were used in the 1950s lights for wiring,
> so that I can cut the right wires?

Red is the equivalent of Brown and Black is now Blue. Earth was a plain
green and is now green and yellow.

> Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> Google Groups is IME the *worst*
> method of accessing usenet.

Go fuck yourself.

Harry Bloomfield

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Dec 17, 2006, 8:54:53 AM12/17/06
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Weatherlawyer presented the following explanation :

> Red is the equivalent of Brown and Black is now Blue. Earth was a plain
> green and is now green and yellow.

Apart from the fact that it would be unlikely to have been wired with
an earth, those which were provided with one were just bare copper
wire.

David Hansen

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Dec 17, 2006, 9:05:53 AM12/17/06
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On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:54:53 GMT someone who may be Harry Bloomfield
<harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote this:-

>Apart from the fact that it would be unlikely to have been wired with
>an earth, those which were provided with one were just bare copper
>wire.

Or alternatively the earth connection was made via the screws from
the conduit.

Andrew Gabriel

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Dec 17, 2006, 9:46:52 AM12/17/06
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In article <mn.8b297d6ca...@tiscali.co.uk>,

Harry Bloomfield <harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> writes:
>
> 1950's though would probably be VIR - rubber insulation which becomes
> very brittle covered by a waxed woven cotton for protection, or rubber
> with a tough rubber overlay for protection. So the VIR would look a
> red/brown colour, rather than red - all well overdue for replacement.

PVC was in use by 1955, but not exclusively so -- rubber was
still being used too. There may be no earth in 1950's lighting
circuits -- it was optional. If there is no earth, you can only
use class II (double insulated) light fittings.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Harry Bloomfield

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Dec 17, 2006, 10:03:03 AM12/17/06
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David Hansen presented the following explanation :

> On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:54:53 GMT someone who may be Harry Bloomfield
> <harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote this:-

>> Apart from the fact that it would be unlikely to have been wired with
>> an earth, those which were provided with one were just bare copper
>> wire.

> Or alternatively the earth connection was made via the screws from
> the conduit.

... and the (likely) grip conduit joints will be so rusted that it
would no longer be safe to rely upon it for earthing purposes.

meow...@care2.com

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Dec 17, 2006, 10:27:45 AM12/17/06
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Harry Bloomfield wrote:
> David Hansen presented the following explanation :
> > On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:54:53 GMT someone who may be Harry Bloomfield
> > <harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote this:-

> >> Apart from the fact that it would be unlikely to have been wired with
> >> an earth, those which were provided with one were just bare copper
> >> wire.

> > Or alternatively the earth connection was made via the screws from
> > the conduit.

> ... and the (likely) grip conduit joints will be so rusted that it
> would no longer be safe to rely upon it for earthing purposes.

There is a problem with half a century old rubber wiring. Its often in
such bad condition than any disturbance is liable to cause shorts,
fusenpoppen, shock or fire. In short, leave it well alone. The solution
is most likely to open the existing fl light and connect it up there,
making sure you dont run the new wire past the hot choke.

There is also the question of earth, the new fitting should be earthed,
assuming its metal cased. To achieve this you can rewire your lighting
cct if it has no earth. Borrowing an earth from somewhere else is
sometimes done, but this is not regs compliant, and there are reasons
why, so you should not do it. In short theres not much chance of you
being able to do it to modern safety standards without rewiring. But if
you choose to do so anyway, at least dont disturb the old rubber
wiring, thats where the biggest danger lies.


NT

Weatherlawyer

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Dec 17, 2006, 10:53:41 AM12/17/06
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meow...@care2.com wrote:
> Harry Bloomfield wrote:
> > David Hansen presented the following explanation :
> > > On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:54:53 GMT someone who may be Harry Bloomfield
> > > <harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote this:-
>
> > >> Apart from the fact that it would be unlikely to have been wired with
> > >> an earth, those which were provided with one were just bare copper
> > >> wire.
>
> > > Or alternatively the earth connection was made via the screws from
> > > the conduit.
>
> > ... and the (likely) grip conduit joints will be so rusted that it
> > would no longer be safe to rely upon it for earthing purposes.
>
> There is a problem with half a century old rubber wiring. Its often in
> such bad condition than any disturbance is liable to cause shorts,
> fusenpoppen, shock or fire. In short, leave it well alone.

How does that apply to pvc wiring?

meow...@care2.com

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Dec 17, 2006, 10:59:33 AM12/17/06
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Weatherlawyer wrote:
> meow...@care2.com wrote:
> > Harry Bloomfield wrote:
> > > David Hansen presented the following explanation :
> > > > On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:54:53 GMT someone who may be Harry Bloomfield
> > > > <harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote this:-

> > There is a problem with half a century old rubber wiring. Its often in


> > such bad condition than any disturbance is liable to cause shorts,
> > fusenpoppen, shock or fire. In short, leave it well alone.

> How does that apply to pvc wiring?

It doesnt apply to pvc, which is normally in healthy condition at that
age. Ditto with ashathene, which looks like pvc.


NT

Dave Plowman (News)

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Dec 17, 2006, 11:17:30 AM12/17/06
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In article <4585585c$0$756$5a6a...@news.aaisp.net.uk>,

Andrew Gabriel <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> PVC was in use by 1955, but not exclusively so -- rubber was
> still being used too.

I never saw domestic house wiring in PVC until the '60s. Although it was
common for some types of flex. Perhaps Aberdeen was rather conservative.
;-)

--
*A plateau is a high form of flattery*

Cicero

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Dec 17, 2006, 11:46:07 AM12/17/06
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On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 16:17:30 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article <4585585c$0$756$5a6a...@news.aaisp.net.uk>,
> Andrew Gabriel <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> PVC was in use by 1955, but not exclusively so -- rubber was still being
>> used too.
>
> I never saw domestic house wiring in PVC until the '60s. Although it was
> common for some types of flex. Perhaps Aberdeen was rather conservative.
> ;-)

===============================
It was certainly available in the early 1950s but I think it may have been
available as separate single cables rather than sheathed.

There was one of those 'crazes' in the mid 1950s for using PVC covered
wire for making bangles, bracelets, fancy belts and even woggles.

Cic.

--
================================
Testing UBUNTU Linux
Everything working so far
================================

Dave Fawthrop

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Dec 17, 2006, 11:56:43 AM12/17/06
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On 17 Dec 2006 07:27:45 -0800, meow...@care2.com wrote:

|Harry Bloomfield wrote:
|> David Hansen presented the following explanation :
|> > On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:54:53 GMT someone who may be Harry Bloomfield
|> > <harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote this:-
|
|> >> Apart from the fact that it would be unlikely to have been wired with
|> >> an earth, those which were provided with one were just bare copper
|> >> wire.
|
|> > Or alternatively the earth connection was made via the screws from
|> > the conduit.

We just had a new combi boiler fitted and they did a good job of earths.

|> ... and the (likely) grip conduit joints will be so rusted that it
|> would no longer be safe to rely upon it for earthing purposes.
|
|There is a problem with half a century old rubber wiring.

Its definitely PVC like the sheds sell now.
--

Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> Google Groups is IME the *worst*

The Medway Handyman

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Dec 17, 2006, 1:04:10 PM12/17/06
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meow...@care2.com wrote:
> Harry Bloomfield wrote:
>> David Hansen presented the following explanation :
>>> On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:54:53 GMT someone who may be Harry Bloomfield
>>> <harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote this:-
>
>>>> Apart from the fact that it would be unlikely to have been wired
>>>> with an earth, those which were provided with one were just bare
>>>> copper wire.
>
>>> Or alternatively the earth connection was made via the screws from
>>> the conduit.
>
>> ... and the (likely) grip conduit joints will be so rusted that it
>> would no longer be safe to rely upon it for earthing purposes.
>
> There is a problem with half a century old rubber wiring. Its often in
> such bad condition than any disturbance is liable to cause shorts,
> fusenpoppen, shock or fire.

That reminded me of;

Poken Verboten

Achtung alles lookenpeepers. Das machine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und
mitten grabben, Das easy schappen der springenwerk, blowen fusen und poppen
corken mit spitzen sparken. Is nicht fur gewerken by das dumkopfen. Das
rubbernecken sightseeren keep hands in das pockets, relaxen und watch das
blinken-lights.

--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257


meow...@care2.com

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Dec 17, 2006, 4:20:18 PM12/17/06
to
Dave Fawthrop wrote:
> On 17 Dec 2006 07:27:45 -0800, meow...@care2.com wrote:

> |There is a problem with half a century old rubber wiring.

> Its definitely PVC like the sheds sell now.

youre lucky. Will still be various safety issue, but not the cable
itself, which is the worst of all on most old installs.


NT

Andy Wade

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Dec 17, 2006, 8:09:04 PM12/17/06
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Harry Bloomfield wrote:

> ... and the (likely) grip conduit joints will be so rusted that it would
> no longer be safe to rely upon it for earthing purposes.

And even if you think they look OK, pin-grip and plain slip joints in
conduit are specifically disallowed in the regs nowadays [543-03-06].

--
Andy

Andy Wade

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Dec 17, 2006, 8:28:32 PM12/17/06
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Cicero wrote:

[PVC]


> It was certainly available in the early 1950s but I think it may have been
> available as separate single cables rather than sheathed.

The transition period from TRS to PVC for twin and twin-and-earth cables
was quite long.

Someone[1] posted the following list of dates on the IET wiring regs
forum not too long ago:

<quote>
Try these approximate dates:

Lead sheathed cables: pre-1948.

Tough rubber (TRS): 1945-1962.

Capothene and Ashothene Sheathed Cables: 1952-1960.

PVC/PVC cables without cpc (lighting): 1955-1966.

Imperial cables PVC: 1955-1971.

2.5mm PVC/PVC with 1mm cpc: 1971-1981.

Black earth conductors: pre-1966.

Green protective sleeving: pre-1966.

Absence of main equipotential bonding conductors: pre-1966.

2.5mm main equipotential bonding conductors - small installations:
1971-1972.

6mm main equipotential bonding conductors - small installations: 1966-1983.

10mm main equipotential bonding conductors - small installations: post-1983.

Twin twisted flexible cords: pre-1977.

Fault voltage operated circuit breakers: pre-1981.

Accessories mounted on wooden blocks: pre-1966.

Non-13A socket-outlets pre-1955.

Double-pole fused switchgear on AC installations: pre-1955.

Others might may have other recollections. I appreciate that some
things were being used some time after the dates e.g. 15amp sockets.
</quote>


[1] Original source here:
http://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=13858&enterthread=y
(edited for typography by the present author).

--
Andy

Dave Plowman (News)

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Dec 17, 2006, 8:52:26 PM12/17/06
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In article <pan.2006.12.17...@hellfire.co.uk>,

Cicero <shel...@hellfire.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4585585c$0$756$5a6a...@news.aaisp.net.uk>,
> > Andrew Gabriel <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >> PVC was in use by 1955, but not exclusively so -- rubber was still
> >> being used too.
> >
> > I never saw domestic house wiring in PVC until the '60s. Although it
> > was common for some types of flex. Perhaps Aberdeen was rather
> > conservative. ;-)

> ===============================

> It was certainly available in the early 1950s but I think it may have
> been available as separate single cables rather than sheathed.

Could be: I was referring to TW&E or Twin sheathed.

> There was one of those 'crazes' in the mid 1950s for using PVC covered
> wire for making bangles, bracelets, fancy belts and even woggles.

PVC flex was certainly common. Usually without a sheath, too. Trying to
remember the name of the black and red twisted stuff.

--
*60-year-old, one owner - needs parts, make offer

Andrew Gabriel

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Dec 18, 2006, 3:36:54 AM12/18/06
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In article <4585ee47$0$31232$da0f...@news.zen.co.uk>,
Andy Wade <spamb...@ajwade.clara.co.uk> writes:
>
> Green protective sleeving: pre-1966.

I suspect that's a mistake. It should probably read:

Green protective sleeving: 1966-1971(?)

Green/Yellow protective sleeving: 1971(?) onwards

> Non-13A socket-outlets pre-1955.

Should also add:

13A socket-outlets: post-1945 (Introduction in 1946)

Very interesting though.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Andy Wade

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Dec 18, 2006, 5:18:40 AM12/18/06
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Andrew Gabriel wrote:

>>Green protective sleeving: pre-1966.
>
> I suspect that's a mistake. It should probably read:
> Green protective sleeving: 1966-1971(?)
> Green/Yellow protective sleeving: 1971(?) onwards

Agreed. Someone else posted a follow-up:

"The use of green alone as the colour identification of earthing
conductors is admissible until 31 December 1977, after which the use of
this colour may no longer be described as complying with these
Regulations." [Table B.4A 14th Ed 1976]

>>Non-13A socket-outlets pre-1955.

> Should also add:
> 13A socket-outlets: post-1945 (Introduction in 1946)

Slightly later, maybe. The first edition of BS 1363 was dated 1947.
Was there a change-over date here at all? Round-pin plugs are still
allowed, after all. 1955 is the publication date of the 13th Edition,
so perhaps that's when 13 A sockets became a preferred option.

> Very interesting though.

Yes.

--
Andy

Tony Bryer

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Dec 18, 2006, 7:31:17 AM12/18/06
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On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 01:52:26 +0000 (GMT) Dave Plowman (News) wrote :
> > There was one of those 'crazes' in the mid 1950s for using PVC
> > covered wire for making bangles, bracelets, fancy belts and even
> > woggles.

> PVC flex was certainly common. Usually without a sheath, too.
> Trying to remember the name of the black and red twisted stuff.

It was a craze here c.1963, under the name Scooby doo - packets
with two colours of what was really PVC sleeving. And they probably
sold it for more than Homebase would have charged for earth sleeving!

I look on Google and guess what

"Thursday, March 10, 2005

The latest mad craze is knitting.

Watch out, American teens, you may be next. France, Belgium and
Scandinavia have already fallen.

In the space of two weeks, the fashion for knitting bits of cheap
plastic string into a pointlessly coloured piece of cord has invaded
and utterly overthrown my students. There is no child in the school -
not one - I'm including the sixteen year olds here - unswathed by
bunches of brightly coloured plastic 'laces', and desperately
knotting together some improbable pattern in the hopes it will hold
till the next lot of colours can be swapped."

http://www.inblogs.net/blackboardjungle/2005/03/latest-mad-craze-is-knitting.html
--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

The Natural Philosopher

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Dec 18, 2006, 7:35:09 AM12/18/06
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My parents house built in 1952/3 featured rubber cable in steel conduit
and the then fairly modern 13A sockets. Colors were red black only.
Earth was via the metal conduit and was generally bare wired or
green..there was a copper earth rod in the ground..possibly added by my
father..

Andy Wade

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Dec 18, 2006, 1:17:58 PM12/18/06
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> PVC flex was certainly common. Usually without a sheath, too. Trying to
> remember the name of the black and red twisted stuff.

Just "twisted flex" or "lighting flex"? I don't know of any other names.

--
Andy

Dave Plowman (News)

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Dec 18, 2006, 2:59:11 PM12/18/06
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In article <4586dade$0$32028$fa0f...@news.zen.co.uk>,

Andy Wade <spamb...@ajwade.clara.co.uk> wrote:
> > PVC flex was certainly common. Usually without a sheath, too. Trying to
> > remember the name of the black and red twisted stuff.

> Just "twisted flex" or "lighting flex"? I don't know of any other names.

I'm pretty certain it had a trade name.

--
*Where do forest rangers go to "get away from it all?"

Frank Erskine

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Dec 18, 2006, 3:27:44 PM12/18/06
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On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:59:11 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <4586dade$0$32028$fa0f...@news.zen.co.uk>,
> Andy Wade <spamb...@ajwade.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>> > PVC flex was certainly common. Usually without a sheath, too. Trying to
>> > remember the name of the black and red twisted stuff.
>
>> Just "twisted flex" or "lighting flex"? I don't know of any other names.
>
>I'm pretty certain it had a trade name.

Asbestolux?

--
Frank Erskine

Andrew Mawson

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Dec 18, 2006, 5:36:10 PM12/18/06
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"Frank Erskine" <frank....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:adudo21v2peo4oi5c...@4ax.com...


nah! That's garage siding and roofs !

AWEM


Frank Erskine

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Dec 18, 2006, 6:47:51 PM12/18/06
to

It was some name like that then!

--
Frank Erskine

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