Time setting on Electrical Meter

[john curzon]

Have a house electric meter (it''s not a smart meter) with the time on the clock being many hours wrong.

We use the economy 7 cheap rate tariff for the nighttime use of the washing machine.

Officially the time period for economy 7 tariff from the utility company is 12 midnight to 7am.

Would with the time being wrong on the meter clock effect the official economy 7 time period of 12 midnight to 7 in the morning ?
In other words is the official time period available independent of the wrong time on the meter clock? Thanks

[Chris J Dixon]

Does your meter have separate dials, either mechanical or
digital, showing the consumption at the two charging rates?

Does it have an indication of which is in use at any moment?

Have you experimented to see if a significant load being switched
on results in consumption being added to the expected total?

AIUI, very old meters had a spring reserve to carry them over
supply interruptions. I guess yours has problems.

The next generation were switched by radio signals, but that is
already planned for withdrawal.

It is always possible that the time display part of your
installation is redundant, and does not actually perform the
switchover between tariffs.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

[Smolley]

Radio Teleswitch Service planned shutdown
The Radio Teleswitch Service (RTS) is an industry-run service. It's
typically used to support old versions of multi-rate, or other complex
meter types with certain functions via a radio signal.

The RTS signal will be shut down by the 31st of March 2024. Meters relying
on the Radio Teleswitch Service could lose the ability to perform critical
functions such as using off-peak timings or heating and hot water.

[Paul]

You may need to post some pictures online somewhere,
so the equipment can be identified.

Any time you post pictures of that sort, they should be
inspected for identifying serial numbers or account numbers
and those numbers blanked out with a graphics editing tool (GIMP).

*******

This metering version, has a radio controlled register selector,
so the TOD information is transmitted on a long wave
signal (getting two purposes, from the same radio transmitter).
In other words, the metering is accurately done and controlled
by the electric company. The meter has two "registers" or
sets of digits, and the faceless box, causes the meter
to put the usage count, into one register or the other
(but not both).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_7

Since that only controls the meter, it does not control the load.

*******

A load could be controlled by a thermostat, such that, during
the 7 hour epoch, energy is only drawn for part of that time.
Just like any heater, you don't want the tank to boil. If the
thermostat contacts "weld", usually tanks have a pressure release.

In addition to a thermostatic control (which would be used
regardless of how the electricity is billed), you can use
a timer, so the water heating only operates during the
"cheap" time. It is up to the user to adjust the rotating
clock knob, so it aligns with the current clock time.
Failure to carry out such an adjustment (rotating part is
off by some number of hours), results in a higher than normal bill.

If the wall time on a summers day was 10:10AM, then this
unit pictured, has had the knob rotated to the correct position.
When you pass your mouse over the product picture, the magnified
image will show the time better.

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/HOE7Q.html

While the user manual is hard to find, it tells you
that you can rotate the knob. The knob has a release clutch,
that allows the wheel to be rotated with fingers. The
clockwork inside does not "rotate at high speed" or anything,
when you turn with fingers.

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/Horstmann/E7Q_U.PDF

"Adjust the clock by turning the dial clockwise."

The knob is to be turned in only *one* direction, as that's
part of how the clutch works. Generally, timer knobs
move in the same direction as the time-keeping. If you overshoot
on the first adjustment attempt, simply keep turning in the
correct direction until you get it where you want it. Not a big deal.
It makes no difference, how many full rotations of the knob are
used in a single adjustment session. The one in the picture is
a 24 hour timer, and it has no notion of days or anything.

Once the adjustment is completed, you should get the benefit
of your cheaper electricity.

On CAM-operated timers, the mechanical friction level varies as
you rotate and correct the time-of-day setting on the timer.
You will feel resistance and a "clunk" as you rotate. This should
happen as many times as there are breaks set on the knob. The
storage heater power will go On--Off--On--Off for one full rotation
(in other words, as indicated by the markings on the knob).
The incandescent lights, intensity level, may flicker as you rotate.
Try not to rotate like a villain -- we are taught in engineering
school, that rotating electromechanical control devices should be rotated
slowly, so any contact capture and release processes have time
to settle. Otherwise, knobs rotated at super-high-speed, a bit
of metal inside could jam or rub. One of the students rotated something
with a bit too much vigor, and their style got corrected.

Paul

[Chris Green]

We have an 'electronic' Economy 7 meter that has three registers for
storing our electricity consumption. Only two registers are in use,
one for daytime consumption and one for night-time consumption.

I'm not sure how it decides when to change from day to night and back
again. It certainly doesn't look as if it can be driven by the 198kHz
signal, there's no sign of an aerial or anything like that and it
looks too small really to have anything that would receive LW
effectively.

I have always assumed it just has an accurate 'quartz' clock in it
and/or that its clock is locked to the 50Hz mains.

Is there any easy way to tell? I can post pictures of it somwhere
maybe.

--
Chris Green
·

[John Armstrong]

On 23/08/2023 15:55, Smolley wrote:

>
> The RTS signal will be shut down by the 31st of March 2024. Meters relying
> on the Radio Teleswitch Service could lose the ability to perform critical
> functions such as using off-peak timings or heating and hot water.

I have one of these meters for heating and hot water. I am aware of the
switch off but EDF who are my supplier are unable to tell me what will
happen next April. SSE, who are the DNO for my part of Scotland, have
not said, and are being their usual unhelpful selves.

[David Wade]

On 24/08/2023 08:19, Chris Green wrote:
> We have an 'electronic' Economy 7 meter that has three registers for
> storing our electricity consumption. Only two registers are in use,
> one for daytime consumption and one for night-time consumption.
>

Interesting I don't think we ever had supplies with three rates...
.... actually google thinks we do so I am wrong. When you say three
registers are there three displays or a button to rotate round the displays?

> I'm not sure how it decides when to change from day to night and back
> again. It certainly doesn't look as if it can be driven by the 198kHz
> signal, there's no sign of an aerial or anything like that and it
> looks too small really to have anything that would receive LW
> effectively.
>

They don't need to be big to receive long wave. The signal is strong
everywhere in the UK and extends across parts of western europe.
Look for the words "radio" or "teleswitch" on the meter.

Sometimes the teleswitch is a separate box

> I have always assumed it just has an accurate 'quartz' clock in it
> and/or that its clock is locked to the 50Hz mains.
>

Well 50hz mains would be a problem after a power cut.

> Is there any easy way to tell? I can post pictures of it somwhere
> maybe.
>

Look for the words "radio" or "teleswitch". You can up load pics to many
free file sharing sites, google drive, microsoft one drive, drop box

Dave

[john curzon]

Here is a link to a photo hosting site of a photo of the type of meter. Which you can copy and paste. Hope this clarifies the situation.

https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-1747.hRygG

If you click on the photo it zooms in size. Thanks.

[Theo]

David Wade <g4...@dave.invalid> wrote:
> On 24/08/2023 08:19, Chris Green wrote:
> > We have an 'electronic' Economy 7 meter that has three registers for
> > storing our electricity consumption. Only two registers are in use,
> > one for daytime consumption and one for night-time consumption.
> >
>
> Interesting I don't think we ever had supplies with three rates...
> .... actually google thinks we do so I am wrong. When you say three
> registers are there three displays or a button to rotate round the displays?

AIUI the three registers are:

Day units
Night units
All units

where 'All' is the sum of Day and Night. In other words, if you're not on
an E7 tariff your provider may want to know the 'All' value not the day and
night readings.

(There is lots of fun to be had when having an E7 meter and not on an E7
tariff, which even seems to translate to smart meters)

> They don't need to be big to receive long wave. The signal is strong
> everywhere in the UK and extends across parts of western europe.
> Look for the words "radio" or "teleswitch" on the meter.
>
> Sometimes the teleswitch is a separate box
>
> > I have always assumed it just has an accurate 'quartz' clock in it
> > and/or that its clock is locked to the 50Hz mains.
> >
>
> Well 50hz mains would be a problem after a power cut.

I think the example in John's picture (installed 2005) just has an internal
clock, no radio signalling. The quartz oscillator would keep time during a
power cut, with perhaps the 50Hz as a more accurate time source when mains
is up.

Theo

[Brian Gaff]

That depends very much on the meter. It would need to be inspected, as it
may well be faulty.
Brian

--

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"john curzon" <kirb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:51d8ed02-db6b-4e3e...@googlegroups.com...

[Brian Gaff]

Its probably time for a smart meter then. At least then you can keep an eye,
in my case an ear, on what is going on.

Brian

--

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Note this Signature is meaningless.!

"Chris Hogg" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:qptbei1ehhouhdhfn...@4ax.com...

> I don't think so. The meter records how many kWh of normal electricity
> consumption and how many kWh of E7, and they are what you get charged
> for regardless of the actual time of day or night. I think that so few
> people's meters are really badly out of sync with the actual time of
> day or night that the electricity companies simply don't care.
>
> Just so long as you don't use your washing machine from say actual
> midnight to actual 3AM if the meter only records cheap rate from say
> 4AM to 11AM, otherwise you'll miss out.
>
> --
>
> Chris

[Chris Green]

David Wade <g4...@dave.invalid> wrote:
> On 24/08/2023 08:19, Chris Green wrote:
> > We have an 'electronic' Economy 7 meter that has three registers for
> > storing our electricity consumption. Only two registers are in use,
> > one for daytime consumption and one for night-time consumption.
> >
>
> Interesting I don't think we ever had supplies with three rates...
> .... actually google thinks we do so I am wrong. When you say three
> registers are there three displays or a button to rotate round the displays?
>

A button that rotates through the three register values.

> > I'm not sure how it decides when to change from day to night and back
> > again. It certainly doesn't look as if it can be driven by the 198kHz
> > signal, there's no sign of an aerial or anything like that and it
> > looks too small really to have anything that would receive LW
> > effectively.
> >
>
> They don't need to be big to receive long wave. The signal is strong
> everywhere in the UK and extends across parts of western europe.
> Look for the words "radio" or "teleswitch" on the meter.
>

Nothing like that I can see.

> Sometimes the teleswitch is a separate box
>

No, there's definitely not a separate box.

> > I have always assumed it just has an accurate 'quartz' clock in it
> > and/or that its clock is locked to the 50Hz mains.
> >
>
> Well 50hz mains would be a problem after a power cut.
>
> > Is there any easy way to tell? I can post pictures of it somwhere
> > maybe.
> >
>
> Look for the words "radio" or "teleswitch". You can up load pics to many
> free file sharing sites, google drive, microsoft one drive, drop box
>

I have my own places to put pictures if needed.

I'll go and have a longer stare at the meter. :-)

--
Chris Green
·

[Chris Green]

Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> David Wade <g4...@dave.invalid> wrote:
> > On 24/08/2023 08:19, Chris Green wrote:
> > > We have an 'electronic' Economy 7 meter that has three registers for
> > > storing our electricity consumption. Only two registers are in use,
> > > one for daytime consumption and one for night-time consumption.
> > >
> >
> > Interesting I don't think we ever had supplies with three rates...
> > .... actually google thinks we do so I am wrong. When you say three
> > registers are there three displays or a button to rotate round the displays?
>
> AIUI the three registers are:
>
> Day units
> Night units
> All units
>
> where 'All' is the sum of Day and Night. In other words, if you're not on
> an E7 tariff your provider may want to know the 'All' value not the day and
> night readings.
>

On my three register meter the third register is simply unused, it
shows 88888888, i.e. all the 7-segment digits 'on'.

> (There is lots of fun to be had when having an E7 meter and not on an E7
> tariff, which even seems to translate to smart meters)
>
> > They don't need to be big to receive long wave. The signal is strong
> > everywhere in the UK and extends across parts of western europe.
> > Look for the words "radio" or "teleswitch" on the meter.
> >
> > Sometimes the teleswitch is a separate box
> >
> > > I have always assumed it just has an accurate 'quartz' clock in it
> > > and/or that its clock is locked to the 50Hz mains.
> > >
> >
> > Well 50hz mains would be a problem after a power cut.
>
> I think the example in John's picture (installed 2005) just has an internal
> clock, no radio signalling. The quartz oscillator would keep time during a
> power cut, with perhaps the 50Hz as a more accurate time source when mains
> is up.
>

That sounds like how I thought mine works.

--
Chris Green
·

[Chris Green]

The meter says (among other things):-

Single Phase Watt Hour Meter
Solid State Digital

Reporter
Type 5162E

Ampy Automation
Peterborough


There's a sticker on it that says '2-Rate 0000/0700' so presumably
it's permanently set to switch rates at those times.

A search for 'Type 5162E' produces quite a few hits but not a lot of
information, mostly questions! :-)

--
Chris Green
·

[Ben Blaukopf]

I would expect that if the displayed time on your meter is wrong, then the billing is also wrong.

I had an electric smart meter that was about 11 hours out (we presume it was installed by someone who set it up as 7AM UTC when it was actually 7PM BST. From talking to a mate who worked at a company that built this sort of thing, they are supposed to autosync - but we both reckoned that if it was that far out, it might be disinclined to autocorrect.

I got access to my DCC data via n3rgy.com (which was how I noticed the problem in the first place, I was monitoring my energy usage) and found that the billing data was following the clock on the meter (what else could it do?). It took me three rounds of complaining about this to get the meter fixed, since they had to send a person round to do this, and obviously didn't want to.

[John J]

On Wednesday, 23 August 2023 at 12:47:42 UTC+1, john curzon wrote:

Find out for sure when the cheap rate metering takes place and adjust your heavy usage to take place during that period.

[Mark Carver]

It's got nothing to do with the DNO, it's the energy supplier that is
responsible for everything downstream of the 80/100A supply fuse.

My mother has a dual electrical phase, radio teleswitch installed
system. I've been battling with her energy supplier (who are SSE Retail)
over a replacement for a year now. SSE Retail were bought by OVO a
couple of years ago. She requires a 'Polyphase Smart Meter/Switch'. SSE
tell me (just this week), that installs are running behind schedule, and
in any case my mother can't apply for one until she is migrated to an
OVO account. Every SSE Retail customer is set to be migrated before Oct
31 this year.

SSE Retail are appallingly bad. Even claimed initially it was a DNO
matter (confusingly who are SSE in this part of the world). I had a long
chat with SSE the DNO, they said the retail arm often tries to dump this
sort of issue with them, to get rid of enquires.

[Paul]

198KHz might be suited to a ferrite core and a small coil.
A cap would be placed across the coil, and the assembly
custom tuned to 198KHz. You want it to be resonant.
(AM Radios with ferrite antenna, seem to run fine without
a wire running across the floor.)

198KHz should be able to penetrate a building.

DCF77 (77KHz receiver board) looks like this. These can be used
to calibrate automatically, some wall clocks.

https://www.mas-oy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/MAS6180COB-300x180.jpg

Conversely, the power needed to run such facilities (the transmitter),
is pretty significant. Enough to make the provider of it, whine
about the power bills :-) The power level of this transmitter, was
selected for its main purpose, not for the secondary purpose of
facilitating Economy 7. Which means the transmitter power may be more
than is needed for the job. This means there will be a very fat signal
at 198Khz.

https://www.bbceng.info/Operations/transmitter_ops/Reminiscences/Droitwich/droitwich_calling.htm

"The power supply for the station was provided by 4 large diesel generators
situated in an engine room at the rear of the building"

"to run the station with a normal load of 1000 kilowatts"

Now, that's a seriously large power bill. But at that power
level, the receiver design is going to work. I bet DCF77 doesn't
use that much power for its transmitter (Wiki says 50kW ballpark).

And that transmitter has two purposes, both of which will end
at the same time, when the transmitter is shut down. They don't
have enough replacement valves to run it forever.

There's a picture of a valve here. The filament current is 375 amps!

https://www.richardmudhar.com/blog/2019/05/in-rural-wales-you-still-need-an-am-radio-until-the-last-tube-fails-in-service-at-droitwich/

Paul

[Robin]

On 24/08/2023 10:12, john curzon wrote:
>
>
> Here is a link to a photo hosting site of a photo of the type of meter. Which you can copy and paste. Hope this clarifies the situation.
>

5224E meters have a clock and back-up battery to keep it running during
power cuts.

What times is the meter switching between the 2 rates/registers? As
others have said, many people would be happy to have 7 hours at the
cheaper rate starting earlier or ending later.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[john curzon]

Posting photo in tinypics hosting site of meter hasn't worked.
Here is a new link in Flickr site:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/199079495@N08

[Paul]

scribd has a copy of a manual for it.

The site itself is archived here. The domain today, is squatted.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070901194555if_/http://www.ampymetering.com/uk/frame_blank.htm?electrical.htm~mainFrame

"Offering kWh and kvarh measurement the 5224 sets new standards in metering flexibility.

Maximum Demand values and 4 Time of Use (TOU) registers are available
for each measured quantity on the 5224. This provides energy retailers
and distributors with an advantage when developing new tariffs in the new competitive environment.

Additional Features

Internal Clock <==== implies battery maybe
Reverse Energy Registers
Tamper detection switches
Inductive Serial Port
Optional RS232
Optional No-Power Read <==== implies battery maybe

Technical Specifications
Power Supply Rated Voltage 220 -240Vac 50Hz
Current Range 5 -100 Amps
Approvals BS EN61036: 2000 class 1.0

The unit also has an optical interface, but whether
that has a battery status or not, who knows. You'd have to
find the scribd version of the manual, and I can't find it anywhere else.

5224 Ampy Meters User Manual and Technical Specfication

*******

OK, looking in Bing, got me this -- a very twitchy site and not all that trustworthy.
If you click the "I am not a robot" and then "Save to Local", it works. The
"this is an executable file", click "cancel". It isn't really an executable file.
A PDF got dumped in my Downloads. But Firefox was outputting stuff to the
console I launched it from, that it should not. I scanned it on virustotal.com .

https://idoc.pub/download/5224-ampy-meters-user-manual-and-technical-specfication-k5462g6vyql8

Name: idoc.pub_5224-ampy-meters-user-manual-and-technical-specfication.pdf
Size: 733,292 bytes (716 KiB)
SHA256: B073F4921E7A5CADF14C1C862872796D9F3D42FFC771E6DF768F8BB89B102379

It has two batteries, or one true battery and a second "power source"
that is available to it when mains is off. The product has a 20 year life.
(There is no procedure listed for changing the RTC battery.)

The Display can list the RTC battery level. Not in volts of course, as
that would make too much sense.

The manual does not hint at any calibration methods it uses for
the Real Time Clock. We know it has a battery. We know it has a
drift spec for the quartz reference. This means it could drift with time.
If the RTC battery goes absolutely flat, and the mains power goes off,
I would expect the clock to start with a random relationship to reality.

There was mention elsewhere, that in the event of loss of RTC operation,
it sticks with the full rate register for the entire day. You would want
to check the device, and see if any "units" are being recorded in the
Economy 7 register at all. If none go in there, maybe the clock is disabled.

The manual claims it uses "Ferro-electric Random Access Memory",
some sort of scheme for saving the registers, that does not
require any power at all. All part of ensuring the thing is
as reliable about storing the correct totals, as the old
rotating platter meters.

Paul

[Robin]

On 24/08/2023 15:31, john curzon wrote:
> Posting photo in tinypics hosting site of meter hasn't worked.

Worked for me and others: see responses in your original thread.

[John Armstrong]

I read what you say. However, both meters clearly "state property of
SSE" (let's not go down the SSE/OVO route!). When the (timed) meter was
faulty shortly after I moved here 5 years ago, EDF could not change it.
I had to migrate temporarily to SSE so that they could change it. A
right PITA! Also, there is only one radio signal "supplier", although
the times for cheap supply vary according to what "Group" you are. That
said, SSE could have been wearing their metering hat rather than their
DNO hat.

Thank you for the info. I hope your mother's change over goes smoothly.
The man who did mine was very quick and efficient. As so often happens,
the operational side seems miuch better organised than the admin. (Are
you listening, Virgin?!)

[Mark Carver]

My mother's equipment says 'Property of SEB (Southern Electricity
Board)'.  Pre privatisation of course. The confusion is that a few years
ago the DNO did indeed look after everything in the chain right up to
and including the output terminals of the meter(s) and timeswitch(es) .
When my dad built the house in 1966, it was the SEB who also wired the
entire place (Gave the best quote !) Today the DNO responsibility ends
at the output terminals of the 100A fuse. Your energy supplier has
adopted  the meters and timeswitch

My mother has simply drifted from the SEB, into SSE (who are the result
of privatisation, and the merging of SEB with Scottish Hyrdo(?))

I've tried in recent years to migrate her to someone more 'progressive',
but any attempt fails as her, quote;  'tariff and equipment is in
compatible with our billing systems', so she's trapped in arms of SSE
Retail (aka OVO) Once she has had the Smart metery installed, I'll
attempt a migration for her again

[John Armstrong]

On 25/08/2023 10:21, Mark Carver wrote:

>
> My mother's equipment says 'Property of SEB (Southern Electricity
> Board)'.  Pre privatisation of course. The confusion is that a few years
> ago the DNO did indeed look after everything in the chain right up to
> and including the output terminals of the meter(s) and timeswitch(es) .
> When my dad built the house in 1966, it was the SEB who also wired the
> entire place (Gave the best quote !) Today the DNO responsibility ends
> at the output terminals of the 100A fuse. Your energy supplier has
> adopted  the meters and timeswitch
>
> My mother has simply drifted from the SEB, into SSE (who are the result
> of privatisation, and the merging of SEB with Scottish Hyrdo(?))

Yes, Scottish Hydro merged with SEB in 1998. Headquarters in Perth.

>
> I've tried in recent years to migrate her to someone more 'progressive',
> but any attempt fails as her, quote;  'tariff and equipment is in
> compatible with our billing systems', so she's trapped in arms of SSE
> Retail (aka OVO) Once she has had the Smart metery installed, I'll
> attempt a migration for her again

Yes, that's the problem I had with my equipment. EDF were the only
supplier prepared to quote. That said, they are much cheaper thahn SSE,
and because they consider me to have a "complex meter", I phone/email
directly to the "complex metering" department, who I have found very
helpful. It remains to be seen what will happen when SSE switch off the
radio signal.

[Andy Burns]

Paul wrote:

> 198KHz should be able to penetrate a building.

R4LW is for the chop in March 2024, presumably the radioteleswitch data
service will cease at that time?

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/articles/2023/bbc-radio-4-long-wave-transition>

[Paul]

Yes. Presumably with good records-keeping, the companies will know
their gadgets are not working.

The transmitter cannot run forever, because they're running
out of spare vacuum tubes.

The date selected for shutdown, allows time for consumer teleswitches,
to be rotated out.

Paul

[David Wade]

On 28/08/2023 05:35, Paul wrote:
> On 8/27/2023 12:19 PM, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Paul wrote:
>>
>>> 198KHz should be able to penetrate a building.
>>
>> R4LW is for the chop in March 2024, presumably the radioteleswitch data service will cease at that time?
>>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/articles/2023/bbc-radio-4-long-wave-transition>
>
> Yes. Presumably with good records-keeping, the companies will know
> their gadgets are not working.
>
> The transmitter cannot run forever, because they're running
> out of spare vacuum tubes.

Its simply money. Tubes last a long time if you look after the heaters.
I believe this is the usual "marketing poo". Getting rid of R4 long wave
allows them to remove a lot of ancillary stuff as well

>
> The date selected for shutdown, allows time for consumer teleswitches,
> to be rotated out.
>

I think its the other way round. The contract to provide the Teleswitch
service has not been renewed and it runs out at the end of March
allowing the BBC to end the Radio 4 service.


> Paul
>

Dave

[Theo]

Paul <nos...@needed.invalid> wrote:
> Yes. Presumably with good records-keeping, the companies will know their
> gadgets are not working.
>
> The transmitter cannot run forever, because they're running
> out of spare vacuum tubes.

There are modern solid state transmitter products available (up to the
megawatt level), so they could replace it if they wanted. They don't, so
they parrot the stuff about transmitter valves.

Theo

[charles]

In article <Otj*DS...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,

There was a time when spare valves could be bought from Russia, but ....

I'm sure a new transmitter wouldn't come at zero cost. Certainly a bit more
than a new valve.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Mark Carver]

Yes, but the BBC (in common with many other first world broadcasters)
are abandoning AM broadcasting.

The audience is tiny, and the electricity, and OPEX bills are large.

[Andrew]

SSE used to have an E10 tariff which also allowed some cheaper
hours during the day. Switching supplier if you were on this
tariff was 'tricky'.

[The Natural Philosopher]

LW was a huge boon for fishing boats as it punches a long way

You cant pickup anything else in the middle of the North sea

With DSL on the way out there's not much else going to be using that
band at all

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

[Paul]

Their combination of diesel generators and vacuum tubes, is
certainly a spare-no-expense way of doing it. The solid state
would have more room for efficiency, and less cooling water.
And there would be no 300 ampere filament current :-)

But here at least, on upgrades to solid state, the power level
always seemed to drop. The megawatt, might not be an off-the-shelf design.

For example, when it came to the replacement of a 250kW transmitter
in New Brunswick, the decision was made to just shut it down,
and leave nothing. That suggests solid state isn't always free.
But at 198KHz though, some parts of it could be relatively simple.
You are not doing a megawatt at UHF.

There was also a plan afoot, to do a version of Loran again.
As a backup system for GPS. That would transfer the cost of running
it, to another department :-) Very similar low frequency transmissions.
It would not be a drop-in replacement, but who knows what services
you could pack into it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loran-C

You could implement a scheme, with nothing more than an RPi and
a GPS, but my short experience with GPS here, is I used a marginal
antenna location on purpose, and I could see time-of-year effects
and dropouts. The signal level did not seem to be exactly constant.
And nobody really wants to be running GPS coax for a thing like this.
At work, we had to put our GPS antenna on the roof, and the buildings
people insisted it be "painted the right colour" :-)

Paul

[Mark Carver]

The tariff my mother is on, includes an 'afternoon boost', designed for
1960s storage heaters (of which she still has four in her house working)
I can remember helping my dad change the elements in them about thirty
years ago. I'm hoping (and so is she) they manage to outlive her (I was
hoping the same for R4 LW but hey !)

[Andy Burns]

Theo wrote:

> David Wade wrote:
>
>> Chris Green wrote:
>>
>>> We have an 'electronic' Economy 7 meter that has three registers for
>>> storing our electricity consumption. Only two registers are in use,
>>> one for daytime consumption and one for night-time consumption.
>>
>> Interesting I don't think we ever had supplies with three rates...
>> .... actually google thinks we do so I am wrong.
>

> AIUI the three registers are:
>
> Day units
> Night units
> All units

My parents' house has an E7 meter (Dad used to do kiln firings
overnight) British Gas managed to get the day/night readings wrong in
their online system, when I complained they adjusted the bills and
switched to identical rates day and night (I still have to submit both
readings though).

The actual meter has 8 registers, with a push-button to alter which is
displayed, but only 1 and 2 are used, there isn't any register that
shows the total.

[Theo]

Paul <nos...@needed.invalid> wrote:
> Their combination of diesel generators and vacuum tubes, is
> certainly a spare-no-expense way of doing it. The solid state
> would have more room for efficiency, and less cooling water.
> And there would be no 300 ampere filament current :-)
>
> But here at least, on upgrades to solid state, the power level
> always seemed to drop. The megawatt, might not be an off-the-shelf design.

It is:
https://www.nautel.com/products/am-transmitters/nx-series/

They make 2.5kW modules, and gang them together to produce a higher power.
They made a 2MW installation:

https://www.nautel.com/2-megawatt-mw-transmitter-antenna-hungaria/

90% efficiency will help the power bill, no doubt.
(the previous valve installation was 55-60% efficient)

Theo