Sending Ni-Cd batteries via courier/post

[mike]

I was going to list some Ni-Cd power tool batteries on eBay but, checking on Hermes website, they have a confused page suggesting that they both do and don't accept them.

A diagram, showing batteries as being unacceptable, refers to a full list of exclusions which doesn't mention batteries:

https://www.myhermes.co.uk/help/carry-guide.html

I know I could contact them and ask the seventeen year old Indian lad what his best guess is but, in the real world, what is the potential (or fictitious) risk to life and limb involved with sending Ni-Cd power tool batteries via courier?

Can they just be listed as drill spares? I presume stuff that's not heading overseas isn't routinely X-rayed.

[ss]

I would check against the post office site as the exclusions are much
the same for all couriers, it may give a clearer picture.

[Tim Watts]

And yet I have received many Li battery products through lots of
different couriers.

[charles]

Royal Mail don't take batteries.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[Martin Brown]

On 23/01/2015 14:41, mike wrote:

> I was going to list some Ni-Cd power tool batteries on eBay but, checking on Hermes website, they have a confused page
> suggesting that they both do and don't accept them.
>
> A diagram, showing batteries as being unacceptable, refers to a full list of exclusions which doesn't mention batteries:
>
> https://www.myhermes.co.uk/help/carry-guide.html
>
> I know I could contact them and ask the seventeen year old Indian lad what his best guess is but, in the real world,
> what is the potential (or fictitious) risk to life and limb involved
with sending Ni-Cd power tool batteries via courier?

If shorted out they can catch either fire or explode spewing out caustic
and steam - potentially rather nasty. Lithium are worse.

>
> Can they just be listed as drill spares? I presume stuff that's not heading overseas isn't routinely X-rayed.

I don't know about this lot but when I get batteries or kit containing
them delivered to me by post they are typically marked with a specific
warning label on the outside : "CAUTION: contains Lithium batteries - do
not ship on if packaging is damaged" or words to that effect.

I presume they stick that on when you say that the contents include
batteries. Stored energy in rechargeable cells can be a serious fire
risk if they get shorted out or damaged internally.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[spuorg...@gowanhill.com]

On Friday, 23 January 2015 14:41:42 UTC, mike wrote:
> I know I could contact them and ask the seventeen year old Indian
> lad what his best guess is but, in the real world, what is the
> potential (or fictitious) risk to life and limb involved with
> sending Ni-Cd power tool batteries via courier?

possibly if the package gets wet and the batteries discharge through the wetness causing a fire?

More likely the real risk is if they lose the package you won't be able to claim on their compensation.

Perhaps you could wrap them in tinfoil (not so it touches the terminals obviously)

Owain

[Tim+]

Not quite true.

Lithium ion/polymer/metal/alloy batteries when not sent with, or contained
in/connected to an electronic device, are prohibited.
Lithium ion/polymer/metal/alloy batteries are allowed when sent with or
contained in/connected to an electronic device, but are subject to
packaging, volume and quantity restrictions. Please see
www.royalmail.com/restrictedgoods.

Tim

[Davey]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 15:40:44 +0000
Tim Watts <tw_u...@dionic.net> wrote:

> And yet I have received many Li battery products through lots of
> different couriers.

They were probably described as 'Computer accessories' or something
like it, though.

--
Davey.

[Tim Watts]

One was a spare 10.8V LiIon for my Bosch screwdriver - on its own, not
part of any device.

I do not think it was delivered by men like this:

http://www.amiante-info.ch/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/fireman-asbestos.jpg

[meow...@care2.com]

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 4:29:10 PM UTC, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
> On Friday, 23 January 2015 14:41:42 UTC, mike wrote:
> > I know I could contact them and ask the seventeen year old Indian
> > lad what his best guess is but, in the real world, what is the
> > potential (or fictitious) risk to life and limb involved with
> > sending Ni-Cd power tool batteries via courier?
>
> possibly if the package gets wet and the batteries discharge through the wetness causing a fire?

I dont think that's possilbe. Water doesnt conduct much, and stops when it hits 100C


NT

[Bill Wright]

Martin Brown wrote:

> If shorted out they can catch either fire or explode spewing out caustic
> and steam - potentially rather nasty. Lithium are worse.

They should be discharged before being sent.

Bill

[The Natural Philosopher]

then they are dead .

lithium cannot be discharged and survive,
Nor indeed can Nickel batteries.

> Bill


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. – Erwin Knoll

[polygonum]

On 23/01/2015 20:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 23/01/15 20:10, Bill Wright wrote:
>> Martin Brown wrote:
>>
>>> If shorted out they can catch either fire or explode spewing out
>>> caustic and steam - potentially rather nasty. Lithium are worse.
>>
>> They should be discharged before being sent.
>>
>
> then they are dead .
>
> lithium cannot be discharged and survive,
> Nor indeed can Nickel batteries.
>
>> Bill
>
>

But it is probably a good idea for guns.

--
Rod

[alan_m]

On 23/01/2015 16:29, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
> On Friday, 23 January 2015 14:41:42 UTC, mike wrote:
>> I know I could contact them and ask the seventeen year old Indian
>> lad what his best guess is but, in the real world, what is the
>> potential (or fictitious) risk to life and limb involved with
>> sending Ni-Cd power tool batteries via courier?
>
> possibly if the package gets wet and the batteries discharge through the wetness causing a fire?

Isn't it a cover all clause because they may be banned items on aircraft
for general purpose freight?

>
> More likely the real risk is if they lose the package you won't be able to claim on their compensation.

If you look at the exclusion list for most UK carriers you will find
that you cannot claim compensation on most common place items sent
through their services - including most(all) electronics. It probably
better not to take their options for an increased compensation value.

>
> Perhaps you could wrap them in tinfoil (not so it touches the terminals obviously)

Jiffy bag with internal bubble wrap lining.

Dodgy things (post wise) I buy from ebay come through the postal system
(multiple carriers) without any problems and often without any special
packing precautions.

--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[c...@isbd.net]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 23/01/15 20:10, Bill Wright wrote:
> > Martin Brown wrote:
> >
> >> If shorted out they can catch either fire or explode spewing out
> >> caustic and steam - potentially rather nasty. Lithium are worse.
> >
> > They should be discharged before being sent.
> >
>
> then they are dead .
>
> lithium cannot be discharged and survive,
> Nor indeed can Nickel batteries.
>

NiCd don't mind being discharged, as long as they're not reverse
charged (which can happen if you discharge multiple cells in series).

--
Chris Green
·

[Tim Watts]

I thought NiCd grew whiskers between the electrodes if left discharged
for too long?

[Brian Gaff]

I think they are worried about shorts making them or the packaging catch
fire.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"mike" <mike...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:637912e8-c8a0-48d3...@googlegroups.com...

[Ian Jackson]

In message <7irapb-...@squidward.dionic.net>, Tim Watts
<tw_u...@dionic.net> writes

They can do this even if they are well looked-after. I've had a fair
amount of success in de-whiskering individual 1.2V cells by splatting
them with a simple 12V car battery charger (meter pinned hard on the
end-stop). You may need to give them a few seconds instead of just a
quick splat - but it's definitely at you own risk.
--
Ian

[meow...@care2.com]

NICd or NiMH? I've always read that NiCd re-whicker again quickly, making it of little practical use.


NT

[Bill Wright]

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> then they are dead .
>
> lithium cannot be discharged and survive,
> Nor indeed can Nickel batteries.

Nicads are fine if stored flat.

Bill

[Ian Jackson]

In message <bb0f868a-6eeb-46c2...@googlegroups.com>,
meow...@care2.com writes

NiCd. The ones I did were mainly AA. Sometimes the de-whiskering lasted
for a long time (I had one which was still OK 3 years later), but
sometimes it was only for a while.

After a successful splatting, the battery voltage will be around 1.1V. I
then connect an ammeter across the battery, and observe the
short-circuit discharge current. Typically it is initially around 5A,
and rapidly falls to near zero. I then immediately measure the
open-circuit voltage. If the battery is fixed, the voltage will
initially be around 0.3V, but slowly creeps upwards. If the battery is
not fixed, the voltage falls.

If the splatting has been successful, I immediately put the battery in a
charger. If, after two or three tries at splatting, you haven't been
successful, the battery's a goner.

As for NiMH, I have done the same (although I'm not sure what the
failure mechanism is). Again, splatting does sometimes does bring them
back to life.

I must repeat that is anyone does this sort of thing, they must be
careful not to overheat the battery. They certainly wouldn't want any
nasty accidents with it exploding.
>

--
Ian

[Tim Watts]

On 24/01/15 01:10, meow...@care2.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 11:46:07 PM UTC, Ian Jackson wrote:
>> In message <7irapb-...@squidward.dionic.net>, Tim Watts
>> <tw_u...@dionic.net> writes

>>> I thought NiCd grew whiskers between the electrodes if left discharged
>>> for too long?
>>
>> They can do this even if they are well looked-after. I've had a fair
>> amount of success in de-whiskering individual 1.2V cells by splatting
>> them with a simple 12V car battery charger (meter pinned hard on the
>> end-stop). You may need to give them a few seconds instead of just a
>> quick splat - but it's definitely at you own risk.
>
> NICd or NiMH? I've always read that NiCd re-whicker again quickly, making it of little practical use.
>

The article I read (15 years ago) proposed that a charged cell would
blow its own whiskers clear, where a flat one wouldn't - so eventually
the whiskers were too many/thick enough to be unremovable.

[Philip]

In article <637912e8-c8a0-48d3...@googlegroups.com>,
mike...@yahoo.com says...

>
> I presume stuff that's not heading overseas isn't routinely X-rayed.

Given that a lot of post within the UK is carried by air these days, I
suspect that it's not only overseas packages that are routinely X-rayed.

[Johny B Good]

On Sat, 24 Jan 2015 09:31:00 +0000, Tim Watts <tw_u...@dionic.net>
wrote:

The articles on this subject of dendritic crystal growth in NiCd
cells (due to trickle charging with pure DC at very low charge rates)
some 30 or 40 years ago, recommended the use of a large electrolytic
capacitor (15v 100,000 microfarad?) charged to 12 volts being applied
across each cell so as to (literally!) blast the dentritic whiskers
into isolated globules which, under low duty cycle pulse charging,
would dissolve into the electrolyte and be redeposited back onto the
cell electrode.

The use of a large value capacitor was recommended over the
alternative of applying a 6v lead acid battery to the individual cells
for a second or so, totally eliminated the explosion hazard whilst
providing the very high current pulse required to clear the dentritic
short circuit.

Low duty cycle pulse charging is recommended to reduce the rate of
regrowth of dentritic crystals regardless of whether you're recharging
such 'rejuvenated' cells or brand new ones. Pure DC is the worst
possible way to charge _any_ type of electrochemical cell regardless
of its chemistry, particularly when it involves trickle charging
regimes.

For modestly low duty cycles of pulsed charging (say 10% at the C/2
charge rate, you can use the same average charging current as for
fullwave/halfwave rectified charging current provided by most simple
mains chargers.

When you go to more extremely low duty cycle pulse charging (e.g. 1%)
you need to derate the average current to compensate for the extra I
square R heating losses, depending on the charging rate used (more
important when it's a fast 2 hour rate than for a medium 10 hour
charging rate).

Whatever the sophistication of the charger used, all elecrochemical
'batteries' have a limited life in regard to charge discharge cycles
(eg. typically 1000 to 2000 for NiMh AA cells) and even just simply an
expiry date from manufacture.
--
J B Good

[Unknown]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 06:41:39 -0800 (PST), mike <mike...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I was going to list some Ni-Cd power tool batteries on eBay but, checking on Hermes website, they have a confused page suggesting that they both do and don't accept them.

This has been quite a problem for us aeromodellers recently..

Sending lithium polymer batteries has been almost completely banned by
the airlines, who regard the fire risk as too high. As almost all
Royal Mail first class post travels by air instead of by train
nowadays they prohibit them unless they are an integral part of a
machine, such as a laptop or mobile telephone.
I understand that RM scans or X-rays all post that travels by air.

The airlines do have a point because Lipos can burst into flame if
improperly charged or shorted and the fire can't be put out because
all the requirements for fire are contained within chenistry of the
lipo cell once it's alight. There's a chap I know of not far from me
whose whole house burnt down as a direct result of a lipo fire.
Another recent event destroyed the freezer the battery was being
charged on and many other things in the garage were written off,
including some models.

Most carriers used to have no problem with either nicads or nimh but
they seem to be twitchy about these too as well, despite the risk
being considerably lower than with Lipos because they tend to just
expolde a bit (they go pop), horrible chemicals leak out (but not much
in volume) and their temperature rises to levels that might cause
surrounding materials to char.
I have first hand experience of this and it all ended OK after I
removed the pack from the car boot, put it on the wet grass to cool
and covered it with a waste bin in case of any more popping.
The cause was rain getting into the charger.

Lithium ion are much safer than lipos but still present a formidable
fire risk if shorted. All recharchable cells (except the very small
ones) can produce thousands of amps in this condition.

When nimh cells were the cell of choice in competition flying it was
common practice to 'zap' them individually using a huge bank of
capacitors. Current used was about 200A. The leads 'jump' when contact
is made with the cell! This considerably reduced the internal
resistance of the cell which made the voltage hold up bettter at
discharge rates of several hundred amps in the air. Nowadays these
sort of competitions use lipo only after some fairly scary nimh
explosions in flight. They now run quite safely at about 400A on lipos
and have had to introduce watt hour limiters to level the playing
field.

Those who sell lipo packs in the UK now have to find a courier service
that will deliver them and there would appear to be quite a few,
judging by the various firms that have delivered cells to me. I've not
sent any to anyone so can't recommend any particular firm.

- Mike

[Davey]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 18:31:03 +0000

Tim Watts <tw_u...@dionic.net> wrote:

>
> >> And yet I have received many Li battery products through lots of
> >> different couriers.
> >
> > They were probably described as 'Computer accessories' or something
> > like it, though.
> >
>
> One was a spare 10.8V LiIon for my Bosch screwdriver - on its own,
> not part of any device.

But what was the description on the packaging? "LiIon battery", or
something else?

--
Davey.

[Chris J Dixon]

Mike <> wrote:

>Sending lithium polymer batteries has been almost completely banned by
>the airlines, who regard the fire risk as too high. As almost all
>Royal Mail first class post travels by air instead of by train
>nowadays they prohibit them unless they are an integral part of a
>machine, such as a laptop or mobile telephone.

I recently had to post off a mobile for repair, and I was sent
suitable packaging and detail instructions on what to do - leave
the battery in, but turn the phone off. Actually the last bit
wasn't a problem - it would no longer turn on.

At the Post Office, I was then asked "Have you removed the
battery?" I wasn't sure if it was a trick question. They did
accept the parcel.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk

Plant amazing Acers.

[BobH]

On 23/01/2015 14:41, mike wrote:
> I was going to list some Ni-Cd power tool batteries on eBay but, checking on Hermes website, they have a confused page suggesting that they both do and don't accept them.
>

> A diagram, showing batteries as being unacceptable, refers to a full list of exclusions which doesn't mention batteries:
>
> https://www.myhermes.co.uk/help/carry-guide.html
>
> I know I could contact them and ask the seventeen year old Indian lad what his best guess is but, in the real world, what is the potential (or fictitious) risk to life and limb involved with sending Ni-Cd power tool batteries via courier?
>

> Can they just be listed as drill spares? I presume stuff that's not heading overseas isn't routinely X-rayed.
>
>
>

Its there alright:
Look underneath this:

GOODS WE DO NOT SHIP
WE TAKE ALL LEGAL AND SAFETY ISSUES SERIOUSLY, AND WE REFUSE TO CARRY
ANY OF THE HARMFUL OR ILLEGAL ITEMS LISTED BELOW.

[Windmill]

Chris J Dixon <ch...@cdixon.me.uk> writes:

>Mike <> wrote:

>>Sending lithium polymer batteries has been almost completely banned by
>>the airlines, who regard the fire risk as too high. As almost all
>>Royal Mail first class post travels by air instead of by train
>>nowadays they prohibit them unless they are an integral part of a
>>machine, such as a laptop or mobile telephone.

Or a 777!

>I recently had to post off a mobile for repair, and I was sent
>suitable packaging and detail instructions on what to do - leave
>the battery in, but turn the phone off. Actually the last bit
>wasn't a problem - it would no longer turn on.

>At the Post Office, I was then asked "Have you removed the
>battery?" I wasn't sure if it was a trick question. They did
>accept the parcel.

--
Windmill, Til...@NoneHome.com Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ S c o t s h o m e . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost

[mike]

I think you missed this line from my original post:

[Bob Martin]

in 1364980 20150126 195200 spam-n...@Freeola.net.invalid (Windmill) wrote:
>Chris J Dixon <ch...@cdixon.me.uk> writes:
>
>>Mike <> wrote:
>
>>>Sending lithium polymer batteries has been almost completely banned by
>>>the airlines, who regard the fire risk as too high. As almost all
>>>Royal Mail first class post travels by air instead of by train
>>>nowadays they prohibit them unless they are an integral part of a
>>>machine, such as a laptop or mobile telephone.
>
>Or a 777!

ITYM 787

[Unknown]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2015 19:52:00 GMT, spam-n...@Freeola.net.invalid
(Windmill) wrote:

>Chris J Dixon <ch...@cdixon.me.uk> writes:
>
>>Mike <> wrote:
>
>>>Sending lithium polymer batteries has been almost completely banned by
>>>the airlines, who regard the fire risk as too high. As almost all
>>>Royal Mail first class post travels by air instead of by train
>>>nowadays they prohibit them unless they are an integral part of a
>>>machine, such as a laptop or mobile telephone.
>
>Or a 777!

The Boing 777 uses lithium ion batteries, not lipo.
- Mike

[Unknown]

Correction:
the 777 used nicads, it's the 787 that uses liion (not lipo).
- Mike

[Windmill]

Oops!