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Fischer Storage Heaters
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Martin Pentreath
Jan 31, 2016, 8:05:14 AM1/31/16
to
Perusing my elderly mother's copy of the Daily Express, I always secretly enjoy the adverts towards the back. Most of the stuff is simply ridiculous, but some of them are clearly intended to take advantage of older people who may not really understand things very well. Today I saw an advert for Fischer Storage Heaters. They're not referred to as storage heaters in the advert, which is full of vague allusions to how cheap they will be to run. But a little bit of research revealn that this is what they are, and that they cost around £1,000 per heater!
Google throws up a thread on MSE about them which has been heavily censored, clearly because of material which Fischer did not want to be in the public domain. The thread also contains many suspicious posts from people claiming to be satisfied customers whose only posts are to that thread, and who all repeat the same strange conception of physics, electricity, and thermodynamics which Fischer itself has.
There is also an even more suspicious thread on something called trustpilot.
I thought this group might take advantage of the uncensored nature of Usenet to assess the honesty and value for money offered by Fischer ...
Google throws up a thread on MSE about them which has been heavily censored, clearly because of material which Fischer did not want to be in the public domain. The thread also contains many suspicious posts from people claiming to be satisfied customers whose only posts are to that thread, and who all repeat the same strange conception of physics, electricity, and thermodynamics which Fischer itself has.
There is also an even more suspicious thread on something called trustpilot.
I thought this group might take advantage of the uncensored nature of Usenet to assess the honesty and value for money offered by Fischer ...
Martin Pentreath
Jan 31, 2016, 8:30:56 AM1/31/16
to
T i m
Jan 31, 2016, 9:17:15 AM1/31/16
to
elderly Mum recently and I think it's disgusting people prey on others
so.
Isn't it the 'First law of thermodynamics' that disprove any claims of
magic suggested by most of these systems?
I tried to explain to Mum that if a heater 'stays hot longer than a
conventional heater' it simply suggests it isn't giving off it's heat
as quickly or it took longer to get to the same temperature in the
first place (etc).
Storage heaters take advantage of this by charging when electricity is
cheap and releasing the heat when it isn't.
I would have though for the best thermostatic temperature control you
want a heater with the least thermal capacity but the highest
efficiency output?
Cheers, T i m
damdu...@yahoo.co.uk
Jan 31, 2016, 10:04:43 AM1/31/16
to
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 05:05:10 -0800 (PST), Martin Pentreath
<martin_p...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Perusing my elderly mother's copy of the Daily Express, I always secretly enjoy the adverts towards the back. Most of the stuff is simply ridiculous, but some of them are clearly intended to take advantage of older people who may not really understand things very well. Today I saw an advert for Fischer Storage Heaters. They're not referred to as storage heaters in the advert, which is full of vague allusions to how cheap they will be to run. But a little bit of research revealn that this is what they are, and that they cost around £1,000 per heater!
>
It is not just the Daily Express, there some magazines aimed at older
<martin_p...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Perusing my elderly mother's copy of the Daily Express, I always secretly enjoy the adverts towards the back. Most of the stuff is simply ridiculous, but some of them are clearly intended to take advantage of older people who may not really understand things very well. Today I saw an advert for Fischer Storage Heaters. They're not referred to as storage heaters in the advert, which is full of vague allusions to how cheap they will be to run. But a little bit of research revealn that this is what they are, and that they cost around £1,000 per heater!
>
readers which by looking at the contents of the one my Mother tried
for a while are a sort of " Womans Realms " for the older woman whose
life has progressed from push chairs to stair lifts.
They usually carry adverts for these storage heaters from various
German suppliers with the implication that it some wonderful new
technology that the Germans are good at.
It is a commercial magazine so is bound to accept adverts that are not
actually misleading, worse though I have seen the same adverts in
those free news sheets that some councils post out to tell you what
they are spending money on or how many potholes they have fixed.
That I think is morally wrong as the adverts are clearly aimed at
getting money out of elderly people by bamboozle them with bullshit
when the same news sheet on another page is warning the same target
audience to beware of scams.
Last year at a county show there was a sales man drumming up bushiness
for one of the brands and I asked him front of some of his targets how
his product could be more efficient than available at screwfix for a
couple of hundred per heater and he told me " ours has a better
thermostat , it's more accurate". In what way? I asked.
Ours don't let the temperature rise above the setting and switch off
more often and that's how they make the savings.
Ok ,so you have a thermostat whose hysteresis is narrow and switches
frequently , how come that costs a couple of hundred pounds.
I think he was fed up with me then and turned away,to be fair to the
Germans that was from a UK manufacturer who has copied what they
describe as Baked Kiln Clay ( That's a brick isn't it) techonology
from the Germans and also say that some of the German firms have now
reduced quality to cut costs. Sods all of them.
G.Harman
Roger Mills
Jan 31, 2016, 11:50:54 AM1/31/16
to
On 31/01/2016 15:34, pamela wrote:
>
> That thread is too long for me to read in detail but I did spot a link to
> this Advertising Standards Authority ruling:
>
> <https://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2013/4/Fischer_Future-Heat-
> UK/SHP_ADJ_216000.aspx>
>
Why do they use such flowery language in their judgements rather than
just saying that the adverts are a load of BS?
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.
>
> That thread is too long for me to read in detail but I did spot a link to
> this Advertising Standards Authority ruling:
>
> <https://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2013/4/Fischer_Future-Heat-
> UK/SHP_ADJ_216000.aspx>
>
Why do they use such flowery language in their judgements rather than
just saying that the adverts are a load of BS?
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.
ARW
Jan 31, 2016, 2:39:26 PM1/31/16
to
"Martin Pentreath" <martin_p...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:992845bb-f8f2-4fed...@googlegroups.com...
their copy of the DE. Did you manage to have a look at the front page of
your mother's copy and can you tell me how Di and Maddie are doing?
--
Adam
news:992845bb-f8f2-4fed...@googlegroups.com...
Perusing my elderly mother's copy of the Daily Express,
I have not had the chance to call in to see my parents today and peruse
their copy of the DE. Did you manage to have a look at the front page of
your mother's copy and can you tell me how Di and Maddie are doing?
--
Adam
Peter Andrews
Jan 31, 2016, 3:51:15 PM1/31/16
to
(that is my buyer) can save £129 over three years by spending £800 -
£1200 on 'High Heat Retention Storage Heaters'. Perhaps it would be
more efficent to turn them off or wrap them in a duvet. Still never
mind it only cost me £96 to be told that!!
Peter
Rod Speed
Feb 1, 2016, 1:00:28 AM2/1/16
to
"T i m" <ne...@spaced.me.uk> wrote in message
news:0d5sab580iufhu026...@4ax.com...
and use the stored heat when you need that heat.
T i m
Feb 1, 2016, 3:27:56 AM2/1/16
to
talking about them (even though they still apply to my point).
Cheers, T i m
Brian Gaff
Feb 1, 2016, 4:26:32 AM2/1/16
to
I have storage heaters, but am under no illusions about their efficiency. as
has been said they are only efficient when the electricity they use is much
cheaper than that used when the heat is actually needed. We are back at
needing a system to store electricity efficiently.
If that could be done cheaply and compact enough then lumps of hot rock like
these would be a thing of the past. I still feel that the cost to buy these
heaters is scandal when you look inside and find how crude they are. One
would expect at the very least all the hot bricks should be surrounded by
space shuttle type thermal tiles, but no, and the heat output adjuster is
normally just some metal flaps on the top operated by a knob and a cam.
Mine are Belling and the Gov paid for them so I'm not bothered about the rip
off cost of purchase, but I'd certainly not fit them if I was paying for
them myself.
Brian
--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please!
has been said they are only efficient when the electricity they use is much
cheaper than that used when the heat is actually needed. We are back at
needing a system to store electricity efficiently.
If that could be done cheaply and compact enough then lumps of hot rock like
these would be a thing of the past. I still feel that the cost to buy these
heaters is scandal when you look inside and find how crude they are. One
would expect at the very least all the hot bricks should be surrounded by
space shuttle type thermal tiles, but no, and the heat output adjuster is
normally just some metal flaps on the top operated by a knob and a cam.
Mine are Belling and the Gov paid for them so I'm not bothered about the rip
off cost of purchase, but I'd certainly not fit them if I was paying for
them myself.
Brian
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please!
Dave Liquorice
Feb 1, 2016, 4:58:05 AM2/1/16
to
On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 20:51:20 +0000, Peter Andrews wrote:
>> I thought this group might take advantage of the uncensored nature
of
>> Usenet to assess the honesty and value for money offered by
Fischer ...
Get cards through the door about similar electric heating systems.
>> I thought this group might take advantage of the uncensored nature
of
>> Usenet to assess the honesty and value for money offered by
Fischer ...
Most of which seem to be thermostatic panel heaters and the "savings"
are derived from an "apple and pears" comparison. Before: 40 year old
conventional barely controlled storeage heaters and E7 tarrif with
low insulation levels/draught proofing. After: thermostaic & timer
controlled panel heaters cheap normal tarrif and improved
insulation/draught proofing.
> Bit like the (compulsory) EPC I had done on Friday - which said that I
> (that is my buyer) can save £129 over three years by spending £800 -
> £1200 on 'High Heat Retention Storage Heaters'.
probably worth replacing with a "High Heat Retention" one. They are
expensive though but theoretically do improve the comfort level. ie
the room isn't stinking hot at 0700/0800 and freezing by 2100.
I've been looking at HHR's one of our heaters isn't working properly
(it's only drawing 66% of the power it should be and AFAICT only has
a single element...). There is only one maker but they are sold under
three brands Dimplex, Creda and Heatstore, gives the impression of
"competition". There is lots of marketing puff but real information
about how much longer than a conventional storeage heater they stay
hot for is very thin on the ground.
--
Cheers
Dave.
dennis@home
Feb 1, 2016, 6:47:08 AM2/1/16
to
On 01/02/2016 09:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
> I have storage heaters, but am under no illusions about their
> efficiency. as has been said they are only efficient when the
> electricity they use is much cheaper than that used when the heat is
> actually needed. We are back at needing a system to store electricity
> efficiently.
Storage heaters are less efficient than other electric heaters because
> I have storage heaters, but am under no illusions about their
> efficiency. as has been said they are only efficient when the
> electricity they use is much cheaper than that used when the heat is
> actually needed. We are back at needing a system to store electricity
> efficiently.
they tend to leak heat when it isn't needed.
However they are cost effective because they use cheaper rate electricity.
If you want to save CO2 rather than cash then storage heaters are
probably a bad idea and will get worse as the nukes go offline as base
load doesn't really need storage heaters to keep it going.
Rod Speed
Feb 1, 2016, 2:55:08 PM2/1/16
to
Brian Gaff <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote
> I have storage heaters, but am under no illusions about their efficiency.
> as has been said they are only efficient when the electricity they use is
> much cheaper than that used when the heat is actually needed. We are back
> at needing a system to store electricity efficiently.
> If that could be done cheaply and compact enough then lumps of hot rock
> like these
Mine are actually metal bricks with uneven sides so there
are air channels when installed in a pile inside the heater.
> would be a thing of the past. I still feel that the cost to buy these
> heaters is scandal when you look inside and find how crude they are. One
> would expect at the very least all the hot bricks should be surrounded by
> space shuttle type thermal tiles,
Mine are. Interesting stuff.
> but no, and the heat output adjuster is normally just some metal flaps on
> the top operated by a knob and a cam.
Mine has a cylindrical fan at the bottom and a proper thermostat control.
> Mine are Belling and the Gov paid for them so I'm not bothered about the
> rip off cost of purchase, but I'd certainly not fit them if I was paying
> for them myself.
> I have storage heaters, but am under no illusions about their efficiency.
> as has been said they are only efficient when the electricity they use is
> much cheaper than that used when the heat is actually needed. We are back
> at needing a system to store electricity efficiently.
> If that could be done cheaply and compact enough then lumps of hot rock
> like these
are air channels when installed in a pile inside the heater.
> would be a thing of the past. I still feel that the cost to buy these
> heaters is scandal when you look inside and find how crude they are. One
> would expect at the very least all the hot bricks should be surrounded by
> space shuttle type thermal tiles,
> but no, and the heat output adjuster is normally just some metal flaps on
> the top operated by a knob and a cam.
> Mine are Belling and the Gov paid for them so I'm not bothered about the
> rip off cost of purchase, but I'd certainly not fit them if I was paying
> for them myself.
harry
Feb 2, 2016, 3:19:50 AM2/2/16
to
There are a lot of tossers here who do not understand what efficiency is.
The only channel for making electric storage heaters use less energy is by improved insulation and better control of the heat output.
What can be saved is actually pretty limited, heat that leaks out during unwanted periods is not totally wasted.
Rod Speed
Feb 2, 2016, 3:33:37 AM2/2/16
to
"harry" <harry...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:d53dd88b-1bac-45ad...@googlegroups.com...
dennis@home
Feb 2, 2016, 6:58:58 AM2/2/16
to
On 02/02/2016 08:19, harry wrote:
> All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Period. There are a lot of
> tossers here who do not understand what efficiency is.
Obviously including you.
> All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Period. There are a lot of
> tossers here who do not understand what efficiency is.
Not all heaters convert the electricity to heat by resistance, for
example, some use heat pumps and they are more efficient than those that
don't.
>
> The only channel for making electric storage heaters use less energy
> is by improved insulation and better control of the heat output.
usage.
A possible good use for the IoT.
>
> What can be saved is actually pretty limited, heat that leaks out
> during unwanted periods is not totally wasted.
>
building does not make it useful.
I wonder why no one makes SS insulted vacuum panels for heater insulation?
The Natural Philosopher
Feb 2, 2016, 7:02:40 AM2/2/16
to
On 02/02/16 11:58, dennis@home wrote:
> On 02/02/2016 08:19, harry wrote:
>
>> All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Period. There are a lot of
>> tossers here who do not understand what efficiency is.
>
> Obviously including you.
>
> Not all heaters convert the electricity to heat by resistance, for
> example, some use heat pumps and they are more efficient than those that
> don't.
>
for some values of 'efficient'
> On 02/02/2016 08:19, harry wrote:
>
>> All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Period. There are a lot of
>> tossers here who do not understand what efficiency is.
>
> Obviously including you.
>
> Not all heaters convert the electricity to heat by resistance, for
> example, some use heat pumps and they are more efficient than those that
> don't.
>
>>
>> The only channel for making electric storage heaters use less energy
>> is by improved insulation and better control of the heat output.
>
> and control the heat input by predicting the following days weather and
> usage.
> A possible good use for the IoT.
>
>>
>> What can be saved is actually pretty limited, heat that leaks out
>> during unwanted periods is not totally wasted.
>>
>
> Heat that leaks out when not wanted is wasted, just because it heats the
> building does not make it useful.
>
>
> I wonder why no one makes SS insulted vacuum panels for heater insulation?
Gotta bring those Nazis in a all the time haven't you? ;-0)
--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.
Joseph Goebbels
Rod Speed
Feb 2, 2016, 1:59:54 PM2/2/16
to
"dennis@home" <den...@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
news:56b099fe$0$39550$c3e8da3$50a2...@news.astraweb.com...
harry
Feb 3, 2016, 2:07:15 AM2/3/16
to
Heat pumps are not resistance heaters.
They have a Coefficent Of Performance.
Efficiency is not very relevant to their operation.
Andrew
Feb 3, 2016, 8:06:43 AM2/3/16
to
On 01/02/2016 09:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
> by a knob and a cam. Mine are Belling and the Gov paid for them so I'm
> not bothered about the rip off cost of purchase, but I'd certainly not
The 'government' didn't pay for them. They were paid for by me and other
> not bothered about the rip off cost of purchase, but I'd certainly not
taxpayers, i.e. the people who don't qualify for 'free' anything and
also have to fund the full cost of their own heating installation and
running costs.
The Natural Philosopher
Feb 3, 2016, 8:12:14 AM2/3/16
to
commission on having the tax payers pay for it.
--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.
dennis@home
Feb 3, 2016, 8:55:45 AM2/3/16
to
On 03/02/2016 07:07, harry wrote:
> On Tuesday, 2 February 2016 11:58:58 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
>> On 02/02/2016 08:19, harry wrote:
>>
>>> All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Period. There are a lot of
>>> tossers here who do not understand what efficiency is.
>>
>> Obviously including you.
>>
>> Not all heaters convert the electricity to heat by resistance, for
>> example, some use heat pumps and they are more efficient than those that
>> don't.
>>
>>>
>>> The only channel for making electric storage heaters use less energy
>>> is by improved insulation and better control of the heat output.
>>
>> and control the heat input by predicting the following days weather and
>> usage.
>> A possible good use for the IoT.
>>
>>>
>>> What can be saved is actually pretty limited, heat that leaks out
>>> during unwanted periods is not totally wasted.
>>>
>>
>> Heat that leaks out when not wanted is wasted, just because it heats the
>> building does not make it useful.
>>
>>
>> I wonder why no one makes SS insulted vacuum panels for heater insulation?
>
> Dennis there's no bigger tosser than you.
I bet there are a few around here that think you are a far bigger one.
> On Tuesday, 2 February 2016 11:58:58 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
>> On 02/02/2016 08:19, harry wrote:
>>
>>> All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Period. There are a lot of
>>> tossers here who do not understand what efficiency is.
>>
>> Obviously including you.
>>
>> Not all heaters convert the electricity to heat by resistance, for
>> example, some use heat pumps and they are more efficient than those that
>> don't.
>>
>>>
>>> The only channel for making electric storage heaters use less energy
>>> is by improved insulation and better control of the heat output.
>>
>> and control the heat input by predicting the following days weather and
>> usage.
>> A possible good use for the IoT.
>>
>>>
>>> What can be saved is actually pretty limited, heat that leaks out
>>> during unwanted periods is not totally wasted.
>>>
>>
>> Heat that leaks out when not wanted is wasted, just because it heats the
>> building does not make it useful.
>>
>>
>> I wonder why no one makes SS insulted vacuum panels for heater insulation?
>
> Dennis there's no bigger tosser than you.
> Heat pumps are not resistance heaters.
> They have a Coefficent Of Performance.
> Efficiency is not very relevant to their operation.
>
heaters are the same 100% efficiency (period) which they clearly are
not. If you don't understand these things then don't make claims.
Martin Brown
Feb 3, 2016, 9:29:48 AM2/3/16
to
On 31/01/2016 14:17, T i m wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 05:30:51 -0800 (PST), Martin Pentreath
> <martin_p...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> PS The MSE thread:
>> http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3516223#topofpage
>
> Funny, I was reading an advert for such / similar things sent to my
> elderly Mum recently and I think it's disgusting people prey on others
> so.
>
> Isn't it the 'First law of thermodynamics' that disprove any claims of
> magic suggested by most of these systems?
That and a bit of common sense. Adverts for "bargain offers" in the back
> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 05:30:51 -0800 (PST), Martin Pentreath
> <martin_p...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> PS The MSE thread:
>> http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3516223#topofpage
>
> Funny, I was reading an advert for such / similar things sent to my
> elderly Mum recently and I think it's disgusting people prey on others
> so.
>
> Isn't it the 'First law of thermodynamics' that disprove any claims of
> magic suggested by most of these systems?
of Sunday newspapers need to be treated with great caution.
> I tried to explain to Mum that if a heater 'stays hot longer than a
> conventional heater' it simply suggests it isn't giving off it's heat
> as quickly or it took longer to get to the same temperature in the
> first place (etc).
freezing of the supersaturated salt solution clamps the temperature for
a longish period of time. Snag is they tend to separate out and/or
expand on freezing so damaging their containment. It isn't ideal for
domestic use...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_energy_storage#Molten_salt_technology
Some varieties of reusable hand warmer exploit this trick.
You can do a bit better with modern insulation tricks to prevent heat
escaping when it isn't wanted but basically with electric storage
heaters you are buying very overpriced firebricks in an ugly metal box.
This lot (page 6) have some typical solids heat capacities listed:
http://users.encs.concordia.ca/~woodadam/MECH221/Course_Notes/Thermal%20properties.pdf
> Storage heaters take advantage of this by charging when electricity is
> cheap and releasing the heat when it isn't.
were promised that would be "too cheap to meter" as night baseload.
> I would have though for the best thermostatic temperature control you
> want a heater with the least thermal capacity but the highest
> efficiency output?
and fairly quickly too.
But if the object is to exploit night electricity rates you want
something with as high a specific heat capacity and good insulation
round it and a means to switch convective air flow on and off.
A building can be designed with a core that is a storage heater at the
middle - I recall some blocks of flats like that with benefit but the
stupid boxes of overpriced firebricks are strictly for suckers.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
T i m
Feb 3, 2016, 9:58:55 AM2/3/16
to
On Wed, 3 Feb 2016 14:28:57 +0000, Martin Brown
<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>> Isn't it the 'First law of thermodynamics' that disprove any claims of
>> magic suggested by most of these systems?
>
>That and a bit of common sense.
;-)
> Adverts for "bargain offers" in the back
>of Sunday newspapers need to be treated with great caution.
Quite. ;-(
when activated (bending an integrated capsule), turn solid again and
get hot?
motor to push the air around (but that does avoid stratification). ;-)
of the core. They then delay the start of the charge period the
longest they can to ensure they have their maximum charge by the end
of the cheap rate period (rather than them heating up fully as soon as
the E7 switches in then having to top up during the test of the E7
period).
mind.
>I recall some blocks of flats like that with benefit but the
>stupid boxes of overpriced firebricks are strictly for suckers.
Well, in defence of that and considering the simplicity of the design
and controls, the ones we have are pretty transparent and efficient.
The slimline case is mounted away from the wall (built in brackets)
and then the bricks are pretty well insulated in their inner box. When
the stat has them damped shut there is very little convected or
radiated heat from them. On the coldest of days (especially when
following a similarly cold night) they are still giving off heat that
evening (to a point where we have never felt cold).
We have left them on 365 and they only come into play when they need
to (so stone cold all summer etc).
I did replace the smallest one in our daughters bedroom with the
smallest balanced flue wall mounted gas fire I could find and whilst
that's not the fastest heater in the world it does get and hold her
(North facing, 3 solid 9" external walls) box room pretty warm (too
warm for us often, even on I of III). ;-)
Cheers, T i m
<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>> Isn't it the 'First law of thermodynamics' that disprove any claims of
>> magic suggested by most of these systems?
>
>That and a bit of common sense.
> Adverts for "bargain offers" in the back
>of Sunday newspapers need to be treated with great caution.
>
>> I tried to explain to Mum that if a heater 'stays hot longer than a
>> conventional heater' it simply suggests it isn't giving off it's heat
>> as quickly or it took longer to get to the same temperature in the
>> first place (etc).
>
>It could be done by using a salt based phase change system where the
>freezing of the supersaturated salt solution clamps the temperature for
>a longish period of time. Snag is they tend to separate out and/or
>expand on freezing so damaging their containment. It isn't ideal for
>domestic use...
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_energy_storage#Molten_salt_technology
Neat.
>> I tried to explain to Mum that if a heater 'stays hot longer than a
>> conventional heater' it simply suggests it isn't giving off it's heat
>> as quickly or it took longer to get to the same temperature in the
>> first place (etc).
>
>It could be done by using a salt based phase change system where the
>freezing of the supersaturated salt solution clamps the temperature for
>a longish period of time. Snag is they tend to separate out and/or
>expand on freezing so damaging their containment. It isn't ideal for
>domestic use...
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_energy_storage#Molten_salt_technology
>
>Some varieties of reusable hand warmer exploit this trick.
What are the ones you can boil in water to turn back into a liquid but
>Some varieties of reusable hand warmer exploit this trick.
when activated (bending an integrated capsule), turn solid again and
get hot?
>
>You can do a bit better with modern insulation tricks to prevent heat
>escaping when it isn't wanted but basically with electric storage
>heaters you are buying very overpriced firebricks in an ugly metal box.
Ahem, the ones we have are actually quite neat. ;-)
>You can do a bit better with modern insulation tricks to prevent heat
>escaping when it isn't wanted but basically with electric storage
>heaters you are buying very overpriced firebricks in an ugly metal box.
>
>This lot (page 6) have some typical solids heat capacities listed:
>
>http://users.encs.concordia.ca/~woodadam/MECH221/Course_Notes/Thermal%20properties.pdf
<book marked>
>This lot (page 6) have some typical solids heat capacities listed:
>
>http://users.encs.concordia.ca/~woodadam/MECH221/Course_Notes/Thermal%20properties.pdf
>
>> Storage heaters take advantage of this by charging when electricity is
>> cheap and releasing the heat when it isn't.
>
>It made sense back in the 1960's with the free nuclear electricity we
>were promised that would be "too cheap to meter" as night baseload.
Makes sense.
>> Storage heaters take advantage of this by charging when electricity is
>> cheap and releasing the heat when it isn't.
>
>It made sense back in the 1960's with the free nuclear electricity we
>were promised that would be "too cheap to meter" as night baseload.
>
>> I would have though for the best thermostatic temperature control you
>> want a heater with the least thermal capacity but the highest
>> efficiency output?
>
>Electric fan heater comes closest to that ideal of warming just the air
>and fairly quickly too.
Yup, that was what was in my mind, excepting the energy 'lost' in the
>> I would have though for the best thermostatic temperature control you
>> want a heater with the least thermal capacity but the highest
>> efficiency output?
>
>Electric fan heater comes closest to that ideal of warming just the air
>and fairly quickly too.
motor to push the air around (but that does avoid stratification). ;-)
>
>But if the object is to exploit night electricity rates you want
>something with as high a specific heat capacity and good insulation
>round it and a means to switch convective air flow on and off.
Ours even take that further. They monitor the air temperature and that
>But if the object is to exploit night electricity rates you want
>something with as high a specific heat capacity and good insulation
>round it and a means to switch convective air flow on and off.
of the core. They then delay the start of the charge period the
longest they can to ensure they have their maximum charge by the end
of the cheap rate period (rather than them heating up fully as soon as
the E7 switches in then having to top up during the test of the E7
period).
>
>A building can be designed with a core that is a storage heater at the
>middle -
And some very old buildings were designed with that sort of idea in
>A building can be designed with a core that is a storage heater at the
>middle -
mind.
>I recall some blocks of flats like that with benefit but the
>stupid boxes of overpriced firebricks are strictly for suckers.
and controls, the ones we have are pretty transparent and efficient.
The slimline case is mounted away from the wall (built in brackets)
and then the bricks are pretty well insulated in their inner box. When
the stat has them damped shut there is very little convected or
radiated heat from them. On the coldest of days (especially when
following a similarly cold night) they are still giving off heat that
evening (to a point where we have never felt cold).
We have left them on 365 and they only come into play when they need
to (so stone cold all summer etc).
I did replace the smallest one in our daughters bedroom with the
smallest balanced flue wall mounted gas fire I could find and whilst
that's not the fastest heater in the world it does get and hold her
(North facing, 3 solid 9" external walls) box room pretty warm (too
warm for us often, even on I of III). ;-)
Cheers, T i m
The Natural Philosopher
Feb 3, 2016, 9:59:44 AM2/3/16
to
On 03/02/16 14:28, Martin Brown wrote:
> But if the object is to exploit night electricity rates you want
> something with as high a specific heat capacity and good insulation
> round it and a means to switch convective air flow on and off.
>
> A building can be designed with a core that is a storage heater at the
> middle - I recall some blocks of flats like that with benefit but the
> stupid boxes of overpriced firebricks are strictly for suckers.
+1.
> But if the object is to exploit night electricity rates you want
> something with as high a specific heat capacity and good insulation
> round it and a means to switch convective air flow on and off.
>
> A building can be designed with a core that is a storage heater at the
> middle - I recall some blocks of flats like that with benefit but the
> stupid boxes of overpriced firebricks are strictly for suckers.
You need to design a house round heat storage, and of course that means
a lot of mass in the house one way or another. Today's construction
tends to be the more 'well padded cardboard' type house which warms up
quickly, but cools fast as well. Ideal for people who are out all day..
--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"
harry
Feb 3, 2016, 12:04:38 PM2/3/16
to
They transfer it from one place to another.
So they do not have an "efficiency" because no energy is converted from one form to another.
You are one of the tossers that has no idea what energy efficiency is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_conversion_efficiency
dennis@home
Feb 3, 2016, 1:09:19 PM2/3/16
to
electricity put into a heat pump ends up as heat?
> They transfer it from one place to another.
>
> So they do not have an "efficiency" because no energy is converted from one form to another.
>
> You are one of the tossers that has no idea what energy efficiency is.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_conversion_efficiency
>
Rod Speed
Feb 3, 2016, 6:46:07 PM2/3/16
to
news:805205cd-f28d-4bdc...@googlegroups.com...
They do actually because not all pumps pump heat as effiently as others do.
> because no energy is converted from one form to another.
That is just one measure of efficiency.
> You are one of the tossers that has no idea what energy efficiency is.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_conversion_efficiency
You don't either.
> because no energy is converted from one form to another.
> You are one of the tossers that has no idea what energy efficiency is.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_conversion_efficiency
Martin Brown
Feb 4, 2016, 4:58:23 AM2/4/16
to
On 03/02/2016 17:04, harry wrote:
compressor and as resistive losses in the motor windings try touching
the radiator on the back of your fridge or its motor.
A Peltier device which is amongst the purest heat pumps with no moving
parts will get mad hot from internal resistive losses if you don't
provide it with adequate heat sinking to dissipate the internal heat.
If you have a ground source heat pump or an air source one (not such a
good idea in the UK) as they ice up in winter just when you need them
for heating then the heat pump moves more heat into the house than would
be obtained by a simple resistive heater of the same wattage.
Groundsource ones on a domestic scale seem to be something of a con
since the ongoing maintenance costs seem to dominate any savings and you
would have to be in the house 24/7 to stand any chance of breakeven.
> They transfer it from one place to another.
>
> So they do not have an "efficiency" because no energy is converted from one form to another.
unless it is an ideal reversible process and they are only theoretical.
Real motors have bearing friction, noise and other losses and the flow
in pipes and pumps is subject to friction and turbulence.
>
> You are one of the tossers that has no idea what energy efficiency is.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_conversion_efficiency
If the objective is to warm up the air then a heat pump can provide more
> You are one of the tossers that has no idea what energy efficiency is.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_conversion_efficiency
heat out than any resistive heater. So in the naive way of looking at it
the thing has a net gain on energy used to energy delivered as warm air.
They work pretty well in cold dry continental climates.
But it is just a heat engine being used to do work by moving heat from a
colder to a hotter body against the natural thermodynamic flow. How
efficiently depends on the temperature difference between hot and cold.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Simone
Jul 29, 2016, 12:20:36 PM7/29/16
to
I started researching into these guys as an advert popped up saying they have installed in 29 000 homes. Their website seemed to make a load of false claims and then I found they have had an Advertising Standards Authority ruling against them every year for the last 4 years. How they can be allowed to continue doing this is amazing. I guess I must be cynical as Trust Pilot has nearly 800 positive reviews from their very happy customers :-)
Amanda
Feb 25, 2017, 2:44:07 PM2/25/17
to
replying to damduck-egg, Amanda wrote:
We had a salesman Gary he was here for over 2 hours! He quoted us £3750 for
two radiators, with the interest it was £4233!!! We was nearly signing then I
thought this is ridiculous amount to warm up one room! He then got s bit nasty
and said could we not afford it!!! We are in are forties god help these old
people!
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/fischer-storage-heaters-1104362-.htm
We had a salesman Gary he was here for over 2 hours! He quoted us £3750 for
two radiators, with the interest it was £4233!!! We was nearly signing then I
thought this is ridiculous amount to warm up one room! He then got s bit nasty
and said could we not afford it!!! We are in are forties god help these old
people!
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/fischer-storage-heaters-1104362-.htm
Russell
Jul 7, 2017, 8:14:05 AM7/7/17
to
replying to Martin Pentreath, Russell wrote:
Martin, when you put something in the public domain you should at least have
the intelligence to check your spelling and grammar? You clearly have an axe
to grind?
So the adverts in the back of newspapers are there simply to con old people?
My own father is 86, but I do not treat him like a child because he is getting
on a bit. You obviously have a thing about things being expensive, which
usually means that you are a low achiever, and probably a bit skint.
I have Fischer heaters in my house. They replaced old fashioned Dimplex
storage heaters. The Fischer heating system is light years ahead of old
fashioned storage heating, and yes it is inexpensive to run.
Buying cheap is fine, if thats all that you can do?
Buying German technology and engineering always pays. The two Mercedes on my
drive are testament to that!
Get a life Martin, better still get a job?
Martin, when you put something in the public domain you should at least have
the intelligence to check your spelling and grammar? You clearly have an axe
to grind?
So the adverts in the back of newspapers are there simply to con old people?
My own father is 86, but I do not treat him like a child because he is getting
on a bit. You obviously have a thing about things being expensive, which
usually means that you are a low achiever, and probably a bit skint.
I have Fischer heaters in my house. They replaced old fashioned Dimplex
storage heaters. The Fischer heating system is light years ahead of old
fashioned storage heating, and yes it is inexpensive to run.
Buying cheap is fine, if thats all that you can do?
Buying German technology and engineering always pays. The two Mercedes on my
drive are testament to that!
Get a life Martin, better still get a job?
Peter Parry
Jul 7, 2017, 9:49:03 AM7/7/17
to
On Fri, 07 Jul 2017 12:14:01 GMT, Russell
<caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> wrote:
>replying to Martin Pentreath, Russell wrote:
>Martin, when you put something in the public domain you should at least have
>the intelligence to check your spelling and grammar? You clearly have an axe
>to grind?
One should also check the date of the message concerned, by any
<caedfaa9ed1216d60ef...@example.com> wrote:
>replying to Martin Pentreath, Russell wrote:
>Martin, when you put something in the public domain you should at least have
>the intelligence to check your spelling and grammar? You clearly have an axe
>to grind?
stretch of the imagination waiting one and a half years to reply is a
tad excessive.
>So the adverts in the back of newspapers are there simply to con old people?
have regular dealings with the peddlers of these overpriced storage
heaters they seem to be there to mislead anyone, not just the elderly.
>I have Fischer heaters in my house.
> They replaced old fashioned Dimplex
>storage heaters. The Fischer heating system is light years ahead of old
>fashioned storage heating, and yes it is inexpensive to run.
does this put them " light years" ahead of a Dimplex heater which is a
clay block with electric heating elements?
As the ASA said in one of the many complaints they have upheld about
this company "we had not seen any evidence in support of the claim
that the advertisers' product offered "up to 40% savings". We
therefore concluded that the basis of the claim was not clear and ad
(b) was likely to mislead."
>Buying cheap is fine, if thats all that you can do?
>Buying German technology and engineering always pays.
efficiency is whether they are willing to defend them against evidence
to the contrary. I have had a Fischer system in my flat for the last
four years and am now selling the property. A requirement for selling
in Scotland is that the seller has a home report and Energy
Performance Certificate prepared by a RICS-approved surveyor which are
made available to anyone expressing an interest in buying. The EPC I
received states replacing the Fischer system (which cost almost £6000)
with high heat retention storage heaters at a cost of £1600-2400 would
save £1995 over three years.
I emailed Fischer with this information asking for comments and
received no reply. After more emails and four telephone calls with
repeated promises an engineer would call back to discuss ‘when he gets
back from lunch’ and ‘in a few minutes’, I finally received a call
from a Fischer engineer who committed to speak to the surveyor. He did
not."
> The two Mercedes on my drive are testament to that!
manufacturers, means you need a spare?
tabb...@gmail.com
Jul 7, 2017, 11:18:01 AM7/7/17
to
On Friday, 7 July 2017 13:14:05 UTC+1, Russell wrote:
> replying to Martin Pentreath, Russell wrote:
> Martin, when you put something in the public domain you should at least have
> the intelligence to check your spelling and grammar? You clearly have an axe
> to grind?
> So the adverts in the back of newspapers are there simply to con old people?
> My own father is 86, but I do not treat him like a child because he is getting
> on a bit. You obviously have a thing about things being expensive, which
> usually means that you are a low achiever, and probably a bit skint.
> I have Fischer heaters in my house. They replaced old fashioned Dimplex
> storage heaters. The Fischer heating system is light years ahead of old
> fashioned storage heating, and yes it is inexpensive to run.
> Buying cheap is fine, if thats all that you can do?
> Buying German technology and engineering always pays. The two Mercedes on my
> drive are testament to that!
> Get a life Martin, better still get a job?
Some of us understand the engineering, ie how it works. They're just daftly overpriced low power heaters. How embarrassing for you that you were conned.
> replying to Martin Pentreath, Russell wrote:
> Martin, when you put something in the public domain you should at least have
> the intelligence to check your spelling and grammar? You clearly have an axe
> to grind?
> So the adverts in the back of newspapers are there simply to con old people?
> My own father is 86, but I do not treat him like a child because he is getting
> on a bit. You obviously have a thing about things being expensive, which
> usually means that you are a low achiever, and probably a bit skint.
> I have Fischer heaters in my house. They replaced old fashioned Dimplex
> storage heaters. The Fischer heating system is light years ahead of old
> fashioned storage heating, and yes it is inexpensive to run.
> Buying cheap is fine, if thats all that you can do?
> Buying German technology and engineering always pays. The two Mercedes on my
> drive are testament to that!
> Get a life Martin, better still get a job?
NT
Andrew
Jul 7, 2017, 11:56:20 AM7/7/17
to
On 07/07/2017 13:14, Russell wrote:
> I have Fischer heaters in my house. They replaced old fashioned Dimplex
> storage heaters.
Are they 'very efficient' ?.
> I have Fischer heaters in my house. They replaced old fashioned Dimplex
> storage heaters.
How about more efficient than 'storage heaters' ?.
Anyone who replaces gas central heating with Fischer
electric panel heaters believing that they will save
money is either utterly deluded, plain stupid,
easily conned, or at the age when dementia is
setting in.
And the last of those four is the main 'business
model' for so many companies whose sole aim seems
to be to con people.
The Natural Philosopher
Jul 7, 2017, 11:59:28 AM7/7/17
to
--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!
spuorg...@gowanhill.com
Jul 7, 2017, 1:44:23 PM7/7/17
to
On Friday, 7 July 2017 16:59:28 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> > utterly deluded, plain stupid,
> > easily conned, or at the age when dementia is
> > setting in.
> > utterly deluded, plain stupid,
> > easily conned, or at the age when dementia is
> > setting in.
> And Jeremy Corbynh. Lets not forget him
Isn't Jeremy Corbin "pick any two of the above"?
Owain
spuorg...@gowanhill.com
Jul 7, 2017, 1:46:28 PM7/7/17
to
On Friday, 7 July 2017 14:49:03 UTC+1, Peter Parry wrote:
> ... The EPC I
Owain
> ... The EPC I
> received states replacing the Fischer system (which cost almost £6000)
> with high heat retention storage heaters at a cost of £1600-2400 would
> save £1995 over three years.
Interesting -- and it's rare that an EPC-suggested improvement offers actual value for money!
> with high heat retention storage heaters at a cost of £1600-2400 would
> save £1995 over three years.
Owain
The Other John
Jul 7, 2017, 3:25:09 PM7/7/17
to
On Fri, 07 Jul 2017 14:48:54 +0100, Peter Parry wrote:
>> The two Mercedes on my drive are testament to that!
>
> I presume that is because Mercedes, being one of the less reliable car
> manufacturers, means you need a spare?
The 2 Mercedes and the glowing testimonial suggest to me that the OP is a
>> The two Mercedes on my drive are testament to that!
>
> I presume that is because Mercedes, being one of the less reliable car
> manufacturers, means you need a spare?
Fischer rep! Pass the salt :)
--
TOJ.
tim...
Jul 8, 2017, 6:54:15 AM7/8/17
to
"The Other John" <nom...@here.org> wrote in message
news:ojon6f$1bph$1...@gioia.aioe.org...
car
Given the competitive nature of the market due to internet companies getting
more and more involved, where is this money to pay for this car coming from?
tim
Harry Bloomfield
Jul 8, 2017, 7:16:07 AM7/8/17
to
tim... explained on 08/07/2017 :
turn over very quickly and the estate agents cars are obvious.
> Given the competitive nature of the market due to internet companies getting
> more and more involved, where is this money to pay for this car coming from?
A reasonable profit on a large number of sales. Local properties to me
> more and more involved, where is this money to pay for this car coming from?
turn over very quickly and the estate agents cars are obvious.
damdu...@yahoo.co.uk
Jul 8, 2017, 7:23:23 AM7/8/17
to
On Sat, 08 Jul 2017 12:16:03 +0100, Harry Bloomfield
<harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>tim... explained on 08/07/2017 :
>> Given the competitive nature of the market due to internet companies getting
>> more and more involved, where is this money to pay for this car coming from?
>
>A reasonable profit on a large number of sales. Local properties to me
>turn over very quickly
Are you that bad to live near to ?
<harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>tim... explained on 08/07/2017 :
>> Given the competitive nature of the market due to internet companies getting
>> more and more involved, where is this money to pay for this car coming from?
>
>A reasonable profit on a large number of sales. Local properties to me
>turn over very quickly
G.Harman
John Rumm
Jul 9, 2017, 8:12:28 AM7/9/17
to
On 08/07/2017 11:53, tim... wrote:
>
>
> "The Other John" <nom...@here.org> wrote in message
> news:ojon6f$1bph$1...@gioia.aioe.org...
>> On Fri, 07 Jul 2017 14:48:54 +0100, Peter Parry wrote:
>>
>>>> The two Mercedes on my drive are testament to that!
>>>
>>> I presume that is because Mercedes, being one of the less reliable car
>>> manufacturers, means you need a spare?
>>
>> The 2 Mercedes and the glowing testimonial suggest to me that the OP is a
>> Fischer rep! Pass the salt :)
>
> I always get a bit pee-ed off when an Estate Agent rolls up in an
> expensive car
Why? Should they not get paid for providing a service? (the fact that
>
>
> "The Other John" <nom...@here.org> wrote in message
> news:ojon6f$1bph$1...@gioia.aioe.org...
>> On Fri, 07 Jul 2017 14:48:54 +0100, Peter Parry wrote:
>>
>>>> The two Mercedes on my drive are testament to that!
>>>
>>> I presume that is because Mercedes, being one of the less reliable car
>>> manufacturers, means you need a spare?
>>
>> The 2 Mercedes and the glowing testimonial suggest to me that the OP is a
>> Fischer rep! Pass the salt :)
>
> I always get a bit pee-ed off when an Estate Agent rolls up in an
> expensive car
the online EA market has such poor completion rates suggests that its a
service that is not as easy to disintermediate as many would believe)
> Given the competitive nature of the market due to internet companies
> getting more and more involved, where is this money to pay for this car
> coming from?
commission payments from mortgage advisors, management fees from let
properties, inspection and inventory fees from landlords, referral fees
from property maintenance contractors, fees from tenants (credit check,
CRB, referencing etc), and probably more when you look at the fine detail.
(although before you get too carried away, the list of outgoing fees is
also extensive)
--
Cheers,
John.
/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Blipraven10
Sep 30, 2017, 10:44:05 AM9/30/17
to
replying to Martin Pentreath, Blipraven10 wrote:
I can't comment on the efficiency or effectiveness of the products, but the
company's sales methods cause me great concern. Curious about the products I
requested further details. Fischer declined to give them unless I agreed to a
visit from an "engineer". Reluctantly I agreed making it clear that as I had
no idea of the price I may well not place an order. The "engineer" was poorly
informed, both about electric heating and specific Fischer products, and
surprisingly reluctant to let me see the products in the brochure. Nonetheless
he recommended some, told me that I could only order face to face from an
"engineer" - i.e him, and suggested I order there and then and cancel within
two weeks. He gave me a price - then did some tapping on his calculator and
dropped the price by £700 then offered another £100 off. This was enough for
me. I declined and he wrapped up quickly and left. I shudder to think what he
could have persuaded my elderly parents to buy.
For anyone considering these products, from what I could gather, the heaters
cost between £1,500-£2,500 each. They may well be worth every penny of that
but I will be buying electric radiators which may well be inferior to
Fischer's, from a supplier who is willing and able to tell me about them,
let's me see them before I decide to buy, and lets me order as and when I'm
ready in the way that I choose, for between £300-£500 each.
I can't comment on the efficiency or effectiveness of the products, but the
company's sales methods cause me great concern. Curious about the products I
requested further details. Fischer declined to give them unless I agreed to a
visit from an "engineer". Reluctantly I agreed making it clear that as I had
no idea of the price I may well not place an order. The "engineer" was poorly
informed, both about electric heating and specific Fischer products, and
surprisingly reluctant to let me see the products in the brochure. Nonetheless
he recommended some, told me that I could only order face to face from an
"engineer" - i.e him, and suggested I order there and then and cancel within
two weeks. He gave me a price - then did some tapping on his calculator and
dropped the price by £700 then offered another £100 off. This was enough for
me. I declined and he wrapped up quickly and left. I shudder to think what he
could have persuaded my elderly parents to buy.
For anyone considering these products, from what I could gather, the heaters
cost between £1,500-£2,500 each. They may well be worth every penny of that
but I will be buying electric radiators which may well be inferior to
Fischer's, from a supplier who is willing and able to tell me about them,
let's me see them before I decide to buy, and lets me order as and when I'm
ready in the way that I choose, for between £300-£500 each.
tabb...@gmail.com
Oct 2, 2017, 8:38:16 PM10/2/17
to
0 new messages