Part P and Dishwashers

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James

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Dec 23, 2004, 5:14:22 AM12/23/04
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Firstly yes I know these have nothing to do with each other.

I have two basic questions which may cause a bit of a discussion.

First questoin
I know Part P have been done to death in this group, One questions though .
If there are no registered individuals registered in my area on Jan 1st 2005
, how do I stand ? is the law enforceable ?

Second question.
I am going to purchase a new dishwasher in the new year. I have been reading
about Zanussi having very expensive spare parts (IMHO a rip off). So I'm not
going to buy one of those dishwashers.

How makes good slimline dishwashers and will do spares at a reasonable price
especially consumables like wheels.

Thanks

Andy Hall

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Dec 23, 2004, 6:24:53 AM12/23/04
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On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:14:22 -0000, "James" <noe...@this.address>
wrote:

>Firstly yes I know these have nothing to do with each other.
>
>I have two basic questions which may cause a bit of a discussion.
>
>First questoin
>I know Part P have been done to death in this group, One questions though .
>If there are no registered individuals registered in my area on Jan 1st 2005
>, how do I stand ? is the law enforceable ?

The law is always enforceable - the question is whether anybody will.

If you are DIYing electrical work beyond the exemptions in part P then
you should arrange a building notice at the local authority. Whether
you do, is up to you - your decision and conscience. It is not
illegal for an unregistered electrician to do work (unlike for gas),
but again, he or you should apply for a building notice.

Whether you would get caught or not is another question. The most
likely route is on sale of the house and at that point the likely
procedure would be normalisation and testing.


>
>Second question.
>I am going to purchase a new dishwasher in the new year. I have been reading
>about Zanussi having very expensive spare parts (IMHO a rip off). So I'm not
>going to buy one of those dishwashers.
>
>How makes good slimline dishwashers and will do spares at a reasonable price
>especially consumables like wheels.

I had a Zanussi dishwasher in the past and it certainly went through
items like wheels and the pegs to hold them in quite regularly, plus
the solenoid valve monotonously once a year.

Some years ago I switched to only using Miele white goods and the
economy makes more sense. The capital cost is somewhat higher, but a
5 or 10 year warranty is normally included and the issue of consumable
spares simply doesn't seem to arise.

Overall, the cost of keeping the Zanussi going plus original cost
exceeded the Miele cost, so these "cheap" machines are really a false
economy.


>
>Thanks
>
>
>
>


--

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Owain

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Dec 23, 2004, 6:36:31 AM12/23/04
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"James" wrote

| I know Part P have been done to death in this group, One questions
| though. If there are no registered individuals registered in my
| area on Jan 1st 2005, how do I stand ? is the law enforceable ?

Of course. It is your responsibility to either use a registered contractor,
or to use an unregistered contractor or diy and then submit the appropriate
application and fee to building control.

Owain


James

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Dec 23, 2004, 9:27:40 AM12/23/04
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So what good is the partp.co.uk site is no one bothers to register !!!! Are
the sparkies not interested ?

Do the council have people employed to do the checks on the DIY electrical ?
if so how much do they charge . I assume its a fixed amount fixed by central
government. If so how much?

This entire things seems not to have been considered/planned properly IMHO


"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:b7als0d8jeujr8epb...@4ax.com...

Tony Bryer

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Dec 23, 2004, 10:04:31 AM12/23/04
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In article <41cad5fe$0$16576$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com>,
James wrote:
> So what good is the partp.co.uk site is no one bothers to
> register !!!! Are the sparkies not interested ?

The good ones probably have more than enough work as it is, as
do all good tradesmen.

Back in my BCO days one of the few really good builders on my
patch ran an 18-month waiting list. If you wanted him to build
your extension he came round, looked at the job and looked you
over and if he liked what he saw you got on the waiting list -
for the potential clients it was a nerve-wracking business, like
trying to get your child into an exclusive public school. He was
good, charged a fair price (arguably undercharged given the
demand) and would never have bothered with YP ads, recommended
contractor schemes, Guild of Master Craftsmen etc etc.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm


James

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Dec 23, 2004, 10:30:04 AM12/23/04
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yes I quite understand

So how is part P going to work !!! and at what price ?


"Tony Bryer" <to...@delme.sda.co.uk> wrote in message
news:VA.00002df...@delme.sda.co.uk...

Tony Bryer

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Dec 23, 2004, 12:26:26 PM12/23/04
to
In article <41cae48d$0$19155$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com>,
James wrote:
> So how is part P going to work !!! and at what price ?

IMO it won't do much for the real cowboys and the folk who get their
mates to wire their showers into the nearest socket. I think it may
well influence the Mobens of this world. If I were a paid-up
electrician then rather than moaning about Part P I'd use it as a
marketing opportunity and put something on my quotes on the lines of
"This work is subject to Part P of the Building Regulations. We will
ensure that all the relevant requirements are complied with and give
you a certificate to this effect on completion. You may be asked for
this when you come to sell your property"

James

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Dec 23, 2004, 12:34:53 PM12/23/04
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"Tony Bryer" <to...@delme.sda.co.uk> wrote in message
news:VA.00002df...@delme.sda.co.uk...
I can see why its there and I always follow regs, Its a shame there could
not be a limited electrical qualification to allow component DIYers to do
their own ( and certify their own). without having to do a full 3 year plus
electrical course which teaches you an awful lot more than basic home
electrical work.

Andy Hall

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Dec 23, 2004, 4:49:35 PM12/23/04
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On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:27:40 -0000, "James" <noe...@this.address>
wrote:

>So what good is the partp.co.uk site is no one bothers to register !!!! Are
>the sparkies not interested ?

Probably not. Unlike gas fitting, they are not required to belong to
one of the trade organisations to legally do their work. Of course
the trade organisations will attempt large marketing programs to
suggest to customers that if work is done by one of their members that
it will automatically be safe and "legal". This is nonsense of
course, because each member is likely to get about two installations
checked per annum so perhaps 1% of his work.


>
>Do the council have people employed to do the checks on the DIY electrical ?
>if so how much do they charge . I assume its a fixed amount fixed by central
>government. If so how much?

I would expect that they will sub out the work to electricians who are
members of the appropriate trade organisation or lodge.

Councils have scales of charges based on the value of the work at
professional rates.


>
>This entire things seems not to have been considered/planned properly IMHO
>

It is entirely commercially motivated and politically assisted. It
was promoted in central government by commercially interested
organisations with a veneer of information suggesting an improvement
in safety and accidents (in fact based on incorrect extraction of
statistics). Couple this with a civil service department that likes
to create work for itself and a government who likes on the one hand
to regulate while spending time on illicit train tickets and abuse of
due process and you have what we now know as part P.

OldScrawn

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Dec 23, 2004, 5:29:37 PM12/23/04
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>How makes good slimline dishwashers and will do spares at a reasonable price
>especially consumables like wheels.

I got the Bosch Classixx a year or so ago (Which best buy) and 1: it washes
very well 2: hasn't needed anything fixing

Andrew Gabriel

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Dec 23, 2004, 6:19:23 PM12/23/04
to
In article <41ca9a8e$0$16586$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com>,

"James" <noe...@this.address> writes:
> Firstly yes I know these have nothing to do with each other.
>
> I have two basic questions which may cause a bit of a discussion.
>
> First questoin
> I know Part P have been done to death in this group, One questions though .
> If there are no registered individuals registered in my area on Jan 1st 2005
> , how do I stand ? is the law enforceable ?

Start from a position of not enough electricians in the country anyway.
Somewhere around 1/4 of them are members of trade organisations which
is a starting point for registration. However, this 1/4 concentrates
on commercial/industrial work, so the number of domestic electricians
who are members of trade organisations NICEIC and ECA is actually
very much lower than 1/4. The government clearly hoped all electricians
would join one of the approved schemes, but it seems this hasn't happened.
Actually, almost none have done so. So there are virtually no domestic
electricians in the scheme, and no inspectors for those who are outside
the scheme. If you read the letters in the trade press, it's looking like
a number of electricians at or near retirement age have decided to bow out
at the end of this year, so the electrician shortage will get worse too.
So at this point in time, it's looking like Part P is dead in the water.

However, I installed my new consumer unit on Monday, just in case ;-)
Part P just gave me the imputus to get a round tuit, which was probably
the one good thing about it. It's been on my to-do list for 5 years...

--
Andrew Gabriel

Andy Hall

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Dec 23, 2004, 6:48:33 PM12/23/04
to
On 23 Dec 2004 23:19:23 GMT, and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

>So at this point in time, it's looking like Part P is dead in the water.

I think I'm going to burst into tears....


>
>However, I installed my new consumer unit on Monday, just in case ;-)
>Part P just gave me the imputus to get a round tuit, which was probably
>the one good thing about it. It's been on my to-do list for 5 years...


I wonder if there'll be a ceremonial hanging up of the wire cutters on
new year's eve.....

I can see it now. Two Jags in an Astra van with loudspeakers on the
roof offering amnesty to anyone who turns in their strippers and
screwdrivers before April.

Frank Erskine

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Dec 23, 2004, 6:53:31 PM12/23/04
to
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:49:35 +0000, Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam>
wrote:

>
>It is entirely commercially motivated and politically assisted. It
>was promoted in central government by commercially interested
>organisations with a veneer of information suggesting an improvement
>in safety and accidents (in fact based on incorrect extraction of
>statistics). Couple this with a civil service department that likes
>to create work for itself and a government who likes on the one hand
>to regulate while spending time on illicit train tickets and abuse of
>due process and you have what we now know as part P.

I've just done a search for "competent" electricians in my area on the
"partp" website, and find that there isn't anybody locally who can do
my home installation work, which requires to be done very early next
year... ;-)

Although Part P apparently only applies to dwellings (and I do a lot
of leccy work for a local amateur theatre, so it doesn't apply in my
case)(apart from the caretaker's flat), the partp website has a
section labelled "Does it apply to me?", but doesn't refer to
non-dwellings in a "ticky-box" bit.

Exactly as you say, it's commercially motivated and politically
assisted. Just another bit of government spin to look good in the
tabloid press, and nicely timed for a general election...

--
Frank Erskine

ARWadsworth

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Dec 24, 2004, 7:16:41 AM12/24/04
to

"Andrew Gabriel" <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cqfjpr$efs$1...@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...

> In article <41ca9a8e$0$16586$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com>,
> "James" <noe...@this.address> writes:
> > Firstly yes I know these have nothing to do with each other.
> >
> > I have two basic questions which may cause a bit of a discussion.
> >
> > First questoin
> > I know Part P have been done to death in this group, One questions
though .
> > If there are no registered individuals registered in my area on Jan 1st
2005
> > , how do I stand ? is the law enforceable ?
>
> Start from a position of not enough electricians in the country anyway.
> Somewhere around 1/4 of them are members of trade organisations which
> is a starting point for registration. However, this 1/4 concentrates
> on commercial/industrial work, so the number of domestic electricians
> who are members of trade organisations NICEIC and ECA is actually
> very much lower than 1/4. The government clearly hoped all electricians
> would join one of the approved schemes, but it seems this hasn't happened.
> Actually, almost none have done so.

Do you think those few domestic electricians that have joined up to one of
the approved schemes will be better off in 2005? They will certainly be
charging more for doing the same job but only to pay the NIC etc.

Adam


Hugo Nebula

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Dec 24, 2004, 2:49:39 PM12/24/04
to
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:14:22 -0000, a particular chimpanzee named
"James" <noe...@this.address> randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

>If there are no registered individuals registered in my area on Jan 1st 2005,
>how do I stand ? is the law enforceable ?

http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/BathNES/environment/buildingcontrol/Latest+News.htm
--
Hugo Nebula
'What you have to ask yourself is, "if no-one on the internet wants
a piece of this, just how far from the pack have you strayed?"'

James

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Dec 24, 2004, 3:18:50 PM12/24/04
to

"Hugo Nebula" <abuse@localhost> wrote in message
news:1ksos0di6tk9q7q8v...@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:14:22 -0000, a particular chimpanzee named
> "James" <noe...@this.address> randomly hit the keyboard and produced:
>
>>If there are no registered individuals registered in my area on Jan 1st
>>2005,
>>how do I stand ? is the law enforceable ?
>
> http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/BathNES/environment/buildingcontrol/Latest+News.htm
> --
> Hugo Nebula


I am reading this correctly when it implies a DIY installation requires the
installer to pay for both a member of the "competent person scheme" to
inspect the work and issue a certificate **and** pay the normal fee to
building control? What if a DIYer cannot find a person to inspect it - see
above posts?

James (not the James who was the OP)


---
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James

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Dec 24, 2004, 3:25:29 PM12/24/04
to

"> "Hugo Nebula" <abuse@localhost> wrote in message
> news:1ksos0di6tk9q7q8v...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:14:22 -0000, a particular chimpanzee named
>> "James" <noe...@this.address> randomly hit the keyboard and produced:
>>
>>>If there are no registered individuals registered in my area on Jan 1st
>>>2005,
>>>how do I stand ? is the law enforceable ?
>>
>> http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/BathNES/environment/buildingcontrol/Latest+News.htm
>> --
>> Hugo Nebula

I did not express myself correctly. I intended to say:

Am I reading this correctly when it implies a DIY installation requires the
installer to pay for both a member of "NICEIC / ECA / NAPIT" to inspect the

Hugo Nebula

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Dec 25, 2004, 3:54:15 AM12/25/04
to
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 20:25:29 -0000, a particular chimpanzee named
"James" <jamesnos...@hotmail.com> randomly hit the keyboard and
produced:

>Am I reading this correctly when it implies a DIY installation requires the

>installer to pay for both a member of "NICEIC / ECA / NAPIT" to inspect the
>work and issue a certificate **and** pay the normal fee to building control?
>What if a DIYer cannot find a person to inspect it - see above posts?

I don't know what the fee for an application where the work is being
carried out by a member of one of the above named bodies will be, but
AIUI, it will be fairly nominal. If it is DIY work or the contractor
isn't a member of one of the bodies, then one would have to pay a
higher fee to Building Control, who will engage a 'suitably qualified'
electrician to inspect the work. They will obviously have to inspect
the work during installation as well, so a Building Notice submitted
_after_ the work has been carried out (as another poster implied) will
not be acceptable.

IMHO, the guidance just says 'a competent person', and that the
relevant certificate should be submitted to Building Control, which
implies to me that if one has carried out the tests required on the
installation, that should be sufficient to satisfy the Requirements.
However the corporate line (in my local authority at least) is
different, and one has to be a fully paid-up member of one of the
trade bodies to be classed as 'competent'. To the OP, it may be worth
asking your Building Control what they regard as a competent person.

Andy Hall

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Dec 25, 2004, 6:54:08 AM12/25/04
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On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 08:54:15 +0000, Hugo Nebula <abuse@localhost>
wrote:


Hmmm... makes it a bit arbitrary, doesn't it?

It would seem that an alternative approach would be regularisation.
In other words, wait until the job is done and the go along to the LA
and say "Terribly sorry, only just realised that there were Building
Regulations regarding wiring" etc. Then pay the regularisation fee
and done.

In practice, I suspect that a lot of this will happen when properties
are sold. In other words, notifiable DIY work has occurred post
January and then seller answers question from buyer's conveyancer
that it has. This triggers regularisation fee and inspection, and
possibly correction of faults. The difference is that the
regularisation and inspection costs go the vendor, whereas today the
inspection, if done, is paid for by the buyer.

Mike

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Dec 25, 2004, 2:43:56 PM12/25/04
to

"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:3pjqs0djgk00pfe6u...@4ax.com...


I might have missed something in this thread but surely dishwashers come
with a standard 13 amp plug and there are no part P issues to be dealt with.


Andy Hall

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Dec 25, 2004, 3:13:38 PM12/25/04
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On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 19:43:56 -0000, "Mike" <nos...@bt.com> wrote:

>

>
>I might have missed something in this thread but surely dishwashers come
>with a standard 13 amp plug and there are no part P issues to be dealt with.
>

There were two questions in the original post.

The answer to the first is an enigma (or some variation on that) and
to the second, Miele.

Mike

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Dec 25, 2004, 3:47:00 PM12/25/04
to
baby. By the time you turn the child?s breast into
cutlets, it will be indistinguishable. The taste of young human,
although similar to turkey (and chicken) often can be wildly
different depending upon what he or she has consumed during its
10 to 14 months of life...

4 well chosen cutlets (from the breasts of 2 healthy neonates)
2 large lemons (fresh lemons always, if possible)
Olive oil
Green onions
Salt
pepper
cornstarch
neonate stock (chicken, or turkey stock is fine)
garlic
parsley
fresh cracked black pepper

Season and sauté the cutlets in olive oil till golden brown, remove.
Add the garlic and onions and cook down a bit.
Add some lemon juice and some zest, then de-glaze with stock.
Add a little cornstarch (dissolved in cold water) to the sauce.
You are just about there, Pour the sauce over the cutlets,
top with parsley, lemon slices and cracked pepper.
Serve with spinach salad, macaroni and cheese (homemade) and iced tea...

Spaghetti with Real Italian Meatballs

If you don?t have an expendable bambino on hand,
you can use a pound of ground pork instead.
The secret to great meatballs, is to use very lean meat.

1 lb. ground flesh; human or pork
3 lb. ground beef
1 cup finely chopped onions
7 - 12 cloves garlic
1 cup seasoned bread crumbs
½ cup milk, 2 eggs
Oregano
basil
salt
pepper
Italian seasoning, etc.
Tomato gravy (see index)
Fresh or at least freshly cooked spaghetti or other pasta

Mix the ground meats together in a large bowl,
then mix each of the other ingredients.
Make balls about the size of a baby?s fist
(there should be one lying around for reference).
Bake at 400°for about 25 minutes -
or you could fry them in olive oil.
Place the meatballs in the tomato gravy, and simmer for several hours.
Serve on spaghetti.
Accompany with green salad, garlic bread and red wine.

Newborn Parmesan

This classic Sicilian cuisine can easily be turned into Eggplant Parmesan
If you are planning a vegetarian meal


Andy Hall

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Dec 25, 2004, 4:45:52 PM12/25/04
to

Newborn Parmesan

If you are planning a vegetarian meal. Or you could just as well use veal -
after all, you have to be careful - Sicilians are touchy about their young
family members...

6 newborn or veal cutlets
Tomato gravy (see index)
4 cups mozzarella, 1cup parmesan, 1cup romano
Seasoned bread crumbs mixed with
parmesan
romano
salt
pepper
oregano
garlic powder
chopped parsley
Flour
eggwash (eggs and milk)
Peanut oil for frying.

Pound the cutlets.
Dredge in flour, eggs, then the bread crumb mixture.
Fry till golden brown in 350° peanut oil.
In a baking pan, place a layer of gravy,
then one of meat, gravy, and cheese.
Another layer each of meat, gravy, and cheese.
Then bake at 350° for 45 minutes.
Serve on hot pasta with romano chee


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