Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Insulating (internally) a 1930s solid brick wall
157 views
Skip to first unread message
Ben Blaukopf
Nov 3, 2022, 10:51:16 AM11/3/22
to
I would like to insulate a solid brick wall in a room composed partly of solid walls with lime mortar (and probably plaster) and partly of cavity walls in the extended part.
Googling suggests that
a) Allowing lots of air flow past a (now colder) external solid wall will cause damp problems, mould, and the house will disintegrate, and zombies will appear. So doing anything that allows air flow later past the bricks is a Bad Thing.
b) I ought to use breathable material throughout to allow vapour to escape out of the building.
Now, I can see point a). Point b) though, seems a bit odd. Modern houses use non-breathable plaster, and have trickle vents. I have replaced the window in this room with trickle vents. Why do I need breathable material?
What I would like to do is batten out the solid wall, stick a bit of board insulation between the battens, then VCL, plasterboard, skim layer. Partly because this will make the finished surface of the solid wall flush with the finished surface of the cavity wall.
I would also like to do the same on the bay windows which are only single skin. There are no trickle vents on those windows, though of course I could fit some (and probably ought to anyway!).
Googling suggests that
a) Allowing lots of air flow past a (now colder) external solid wall will cause damp problems, mould, and the house will disintegrate, and zombies will appear. So doing anything that allows air flow later past the bricks is a Bad Thing.
b) I ought to use breathable material throughout to allow vapour to escape out of the building.
Now, I can see point a). Point b) though, seems a bit odd. Modern houses use non-breathable plaster, and have trickle vents. I have replaced the window in this room with trickle vents. Why do I need breathable material?
What I would like to do is batten out the solid wall, stick a bit of board insulation between the battens, then VCL, plasterboard, skim layer. Partly because this will make the finished surface of the solid wall flush with the finished surface of the cavity wall.
I would also like to do the same on the bay windows which are only single skin. There are no trickle vents on those windows, though of course I could fit some (and probably ought to anyway!).
The Natural Philosopher
Nov 3, 2022, 11:30:39 AM11/3/22
to
On 03/11/2022 14:51, Ben Blaukopf wrote:
> I would like to insulate a solid brick wall in a room composed partly
> of solid walls with lime mortar (and probably plaster) and partly of
> cavity walls in the extended part.
>
> Googling suggests that
>
> a) Allowing lots of air flow past a (now colder) external solid wall
> will cause damp problems, mould, and the house will disintegrate, and
> zombies will appear. So doing anything that allows air flow later
> past the bricks is a Bad Thing.
>
No, its a GOOD thing. As long as te air isnt internal moisture laden
> I would like to insulate a solid brick wall in a room composed partly
> of solid walls with lime mortar (and probably plaster) and partly of
> cavity walls in the extended part.
>
> Googling suggests that
>
> a) Allowing lots of air flow past a (now colder) external solid wall
> will cause damp problems, mould, and the house will disintegrate, and
> zombies will appear. So doing anything that allows air flow later
> past the bricks is a Bad Thing.
>
air, but proper deep breathes fresh outside air.
> b) I ought to use breathable material throughout to allow vapour to
> escape out of the building.
>
> Now, I can see point a). Point b) though, seems a bit odd. Modern
> houses use non-breathable plaster, and have trickle vents. I have
> replaced the window in this room with trickle vents. Why do I need
> breathable material?
build an airtight shell inside the structure, punctrured with specific
vents to the outside, and then make that shell moisture proof, before
adding insulation round it, and then, finally a structural
wall/floor/roof, whch is, from the insulation outwards, permeable, so
that water from OUTSIDE doesn't build up in it.
>
> What I would like to do is batten out the solid wall, stick a bit of
> board insulation between the battens, then VCL, plasterboard, skim
> layer. Partly because this will make the finished surface of the
> solid wall flush with the finished surface of the cavity wall.
>
kingspan backed plasterboard that you can just glue to the inside of the
solid wall.
Its not cheap, but it saves a lot of hassle. And does a better job than
battens - no cold bridges
> I would also like to do the same on the bay windows which are only
> single skin. There are no trickle vents on those windows, though of
> course I could fit some (and probably ought to anyway!).
is hermetically sealed.
--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.
Theo
Nov 3, 2022, 12:53:11 PM11/3/22
to
Ben Blaukopf <b...@blaukopf.com> wrote:
> I would like to insulate a solid brick wall in a room composed partly of
> solid walls with lime mortar (and probably plaster) and partly of cavity
> walls in the extended part.
>
> Googling suggests that
>
> a) Allowing lots of air flow past a (now colder) external solid wall will
> cause damp problems, mould, and the house will disintegrate, and zombies
> will appear. So doing anything that allows air flow later past the bricks
> is a Bad Thing.
No, the airflow past the outside dries off moisture. Some traditional
> I would like to insulate a solid brick wall in a room composed partly of
> solid walls with lime mortar (and probably plaster) and partly of cavity
> walls in the extended part.
>
> Googling suggests that
>
> a) Allowing lots of air flow past a (now colder) external solid wall will
> cause damp problems, mould, and the house will disintegrate, and zombies
> will appear. So doing anything that allows air flow later past the bricks
> is a Bad Thing.
architecture is designed to optimise the airflow, especially on north faces
that don't get sunshine.
> b) I ought to use breathable material throughout to allow vapour to escape
> out of the building.
>
> Now, I can see point a). Point b) though, seems a bit odd. Modern houses
> use non-breathable plaster, and have trickle vents. I have replaced the
> window in this room with trickle vents. Why do I need breathable
> material?
inside breathe out moisture (and fires, cooking and bathing) which goes into
the air because it's warm. In a traditional house, the walls are permeable.
This differential temperature/moisture profile pushes the moisture through
the walls and is dried off by the wind outside. All is well. Similarly
when it rains and the wall is soaked, the moisture has a letout the other
way. You end up with a smooth moisture profile because it can always
equilibrate with the layer next to it.
Modern finishes, synthetic insulation and paints aren't breathable, so what
happens when somebody applies that to a traditional wall is you end up with
a barrier in the wall where moisture gets trapped halfway. Then there's
nowhere for it to go, causing a damp problem.
Basically, either you seal everything up so the moisture doesn't enter the
wall (modern finishes, vapour barriers), can escape (vented cavity walls) or
you make everything breatheable so the moisture doesn't get trapped.
> What I would like to do is batten out the solid wall, stick a bit of
> board insulation between the battens, then VCL, plasterboard, skim layer.
> Partly because this will make the finished surface of the solid wall flush
> with the finished surface of the cavity wall.
including your current wall construction. See what it reckons about
condensation within the wall. Adding insulation can make damp problems
worse because now things are colder than they were before, causing more
condensation - that's why it's worth modelling it first.
If you want to keep the wall permeable, wood fibre insulation seems quite
good and is breatheable.
https://www.backtoearth.co.uk/resources/
has some useful videos on installation and a training course:
https://woodfibreinsulation.co.uk/courses/
> I would also like to do the same on the bay windows which are only single
> skin. There are no trickle vents on those windows, though of course I
> could fit some (and probably ought to anyway!).
don't do a lot for moisture in the room.
Theo
Fredxx
Nov 3, 2022, 12:54:48 PM11/3/22
to
On 03/11/2022 14:51, Ben Blaukopf wrote:
> I would like to insulate a solid brick wall in a room composed partly
> of solid walls with lime mortar (and probably plaster) and partly of
> cavity walls in the extended part.
>
> Googling suggests that
>
> a) Allowing lots of air flow past a (now colder) external solid wall
> will cause damp problems, mould, and the house will disintegrate, and
> zombies will appear. So doing anything that allows air flow later
> past the bricks is a Bad Thing.
Condensation occurs where warm moist air passes over colder bricks.
> of solid walls with lime mortar (and probably plaster) and partly of
> cavity walls in the extended part.
>
> Googling suggests that
>
> a) Allowing lots of air flow past a (now colder) external solid wall
> will cause damp problems, mould, and the house will disintegrate, and
> zombies will appear. So doing anything that allows air flow later
> past the bricks is a Bad Thing.
> b) I ought to use breathable material throughout to allow vapour to
> escape out of the building.
stop condensation. That is why you get foil backed plasterboard.
Warm air with the same moisture content as the outside cold air won't
from condensation. Unless it's raining.
> Now, I can see point a). Point b) though, seems a bit odd. Modern
> houses use non-breathable plaster, and have trickle vents. I have
> replaced the window in this room with trickle vents. Why do I need
> breathable material?
>
> What I would like to do is batten out the solid wall, stick a bit of
> board insulation between the battens, then VCL, plasterboard, skim
> layer. Partly because this will make the finished surface of the
> solid wall flush with the finished surface of the cavity wall.
John Rumm
Nov 3, 2022, 6:53:52 PM11/3/22
to
On 03/11/2022 14:51, Ben Blaukopf wrote:
> I would like to insulate a solid brick wall in a room composed partly
> of solid walls with lime mortar (and probably plaster) and partly of
> cavity walls in the extended part.
>
> Googling suggests that
>
> a) Allowing lots of air flow past a (now colder) external solid wall
> will cause damp problems, mould, and the house will disintegrate, and
> zombies will appear. So doing anything that allows air flow later
> past the bricks is a Bad Thing.
With traditional walls moisture was expected to pass through in both
> of solid walls with lime mortar (and probably plaster) and partly of
> cavity walls in the extended part.
>
> Googling suggests that
>
> a) Allowing lots of air flow past a (now colder) external solid wall
> will cause damp problems, mould, and the house will disintegrate, and
> zombies will appear. So doing anything that allows air flow later
> past the bricks is a Bad Thing.
directions. Having some heat inside the building kept that side
relatively damp free, and any condensing of water from inside moist air
would occur somewhere inside the wall - probably nearer the outside -
making that somewhat damp. Air flow on the outside combined with some
heat leakage from the inside would help this evaporate away.
The more permeable lime mortar would tend to carry most of the water, so
the bricks would tend to stay drier (and less likely to suffer
spalling from frost damage - at least up until someone re-points them
with a cement based mortar!)
> b) I ought to use breathable material throughout to allow vapour to
> escape out of the building.
In cases as described above the whole thing is to an extent breathable.
> escape out of the building.
The problems can start to arise when an impermeable layer is applied to
the outside (say a cement render). While that stops water getting in, it
also traps water trying to get out.
> Now, I can see point a). Point b) though, seems a bit odd. Modern
> houses use non-breathable plaster, and have trickle vents. I have
> replaced the window in this room with trickle vents. Why do I need
> breathable material?
and will try to ensure that moist air from inside can't reach cold areas
of masonry. This means you need a vapour control barrier on the warm wet
side of the insulation.
The diagram here shows it quite nicely:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Insulation_and_Condensation
> What I would like to do is batten out the solid wall, stick a bit of
> board insulation between the battens, then VCL, plasterboard, skim
> layer. Partly because this will make the finished surface of the
> solid wall flush with the finished surface of the cavity wall.
>
> I would also like to do the same on the bay windows which are only
> single skin. There are no trickle vents on those windows, though of
> course I could fit some (and probably ought to anyway!).
moisture ought not be able to get through to the (now colder) masonry,
and hence condense in the wall.
--
Cheers,
John.
/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
RJH
Nov 4, 2022, 3:21:25 AM11/4/22
to
On 3 Nov 2022 at 14:51:13 GMT, Ben Blaukopf wrote:
> What I would like to do is batten out the solid wall, stick a bit of board
> insulation between the battens, then VCL, plasterboard, skim layer. Partly
> because this will make the finished surface of the solid wall flush with the
> finished surface of the cavity wall.
Why do you need a VCL if you're using impermeable insulation materials?
> What I would like to do is batten out the solid wall, stick a bit of board
> insulation between the battens, then VCL, plasterboard, skim layer. Partly
> because this will make the finished surface of the solid wall flush with the
> finished surface of the cavity wall.
--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK
Brian Gaff
Nov 4, 2022, 4:28:14 AM11/4/22
to
I don't know but the problem seems to me that this is very hard if like
myself there is stuff screwed to the walls. I'd prefer the fix to be
outside. Some kind of cladding that insulates. However the powers that be
are all talking about knocking these type of houses down and rebuilding with
more insulation. I hope I'm gone by the time they can just take your paid
for house and shove you somewhere else in a modern house.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Ben Blaukopf" <b...@blaukopf.com> wrote in message
news:ed73f3a8-45e3-48f3...@googlegroups.com...
myself there is stuff screwed to the walls. I'd prefer the fix to be
outside. Some kind of cladding that insulates. However the powers that be
are all talking about knocking these type of houses down and rebuilding with
more insulation. I hope I'm gone by the time they can just take your paid
for house and shove you somewhere else in a modern house.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Ben Blaukopf" <b...@blaukopf.com> wrote in message
news:ed73f3a8-45e3-48f3...@googlegroups.com...
The Natural Philosopher
Nov 4, 2022, 4:44:10 AM11/4/22
to
On 03/11/2022 16:53, Theo wrote:
> In a house in the winter it's warmer on the inside than the outside. People
> inside breathe out moisture (and fires, cooking and bathing) which goes into
> the air because it's warm. In a traditional house, the walls are permeable.
> This differential temperature/moisture profile pushes the moisture through
> the walls and is dried off by the wind outside. All is well. Similarly
> when it rains and the wall is soaked, the moisture has a letout the other
> way. You end up with a smooth moisture profile because it can always
> equilibrate with the layer next to it.
>
Bollocks. I lived in a single 4" thick thick brick house.
> In a house in the winter it's warmer on the inside than the outside. People
> inside breathe out moisture (and fires, cooking and bathing) which goes into
> the air because it's warm. In a traditional house, the walls are permeable.
> This differential temperature/moisture profile pushes the moisture through
> the walls and is dried off by the wind outside. All is well. Similarly
> when it rains and the wall is soaked, the moisture has a letout the other
> way. You end up with a smooth moisture profile because it can always
> equilibrate with the layer next to it.
>
The water used to run down the walls inside in winter.
You cant get they water out as fast as its put in, especially in a bathroom.
We dont sew ourselves into our underwear for winter any more.
> Modern finishes, synthetic insulation and paints aren't breathable, so what
> happens when somebody applies that to a traditional wall is you end up with
> a barrier in the wall where moisture gets trapped halfway. Then there's
> nowhere for it to go, causing a damp problem.
>
> Basically, either you seal everything up so the moisture doesn't enter the
> wall (modern finishes, vapour barriers), can escape (vented cavity walls) or
> you make everything breatheable so the moisture doesn't get trapped.
>
>> What I would like to do is batten out the solid wall, stick a bit of
>> board insulation between the battens, then VCL, plasterboard, skim layer.
>> Partly because this will make the finished surface of the solid wall flush
>> with the finished surface of the cavity wall.
> I'd go to ubakus.com (demo mode) and create the stackup you want,
> including your current wall construction. See what it reckons about
> condensation within the wall. Adding insulation can make damp problems
> worse because now things are colder than they were before, causing more
> condensation - that's why it's worth modelling it first.
>
> If you want to keep the wall permeable, wood fibre insulation seems quite
> good and is breatheable.
> https://www.backtoearth.co.uk/resources/
> has some useful videos on installation and a training course:
> https://woodfibreinsulation.co.uk/courses/
>
breathable except with especially calculaed ventilation - trickle or
otherwise.
>> I would also like to do the same on the bay windows which are only single
>> skin. There are no trickle vents on those windows, though of course I
>> could fit some (and probably ought to anyway!).
> Trickle vents are mostly about room air quality (CO2 and VOC buildup) - they
> don't do a lot for moisture in the room.
the building, and nowhere is CO2 buildup mentioned in the regs or VOCs.
They are there to remove moisture mainly. Submariners regularly go to
CO2 levesl 100 times those in air.
In the limit trickle ventilation is the largest form of heat loss in the
house, which is why heat recovery ventilation is necessary for really
passive houses.
The modern system of seal, insulate, and ventilate precisely is in fact
the best way to keep a house warm dry and have decent air quality inside.
All the old fashioned methods may just about work with an open coal or
wood fire. But they are not as good.
--
WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.
The Natural Philosopher
Nov 4, 2022, 4:45:58 AM11/4/22
to
VCLs are normally applied outside as short term barriers to heavy rain
that nevertheless can still evaporate any that gets past, long term
Or in a roof as a windproof layer that can still 'breathe'
--
"An intellectual is a person knowledgeable in one field who speaks out
only in others...”
Tom Wolfe
RJH
Nov 4, 2022, 4:57:44 AM11/4/22
to
On 4 Nov 2022 at 08:44:06 GMT, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> In the limit trickle ventilation is the largest form of heat loss in the
> house, which is why heat recovery ventilation is necessary for really
> passive houses.
>
> The modern system of seal, insulate, and ventilate precisely is in fact
> the best way to keep a house warm dry and have decent air quality inside.
Retrofitting ventilation is something I don't see much - or at all.
> In the limit trickle ventilation is the largest form of heat loss in the
> house, which is why heat recovery ventilation is necessary for really
> passive houses.
>
> The modern system of seal, insulate, and ventilate precisely is in fact
> the best way to keep a house warm dry and have decent air quality inside.
I understand the 'open a few windows', but how to achieve the balance between
a healthy home and minimising heat loss?
And are there any real world examples of retrofitting heat recovery
ventialtion systems?
RJH
Nov 4, 2022, 5:04:23 AM11/4/22
to
On external cladding - yes - far easier if it can be done. Why where it's
possible isn't it done? A friend has just had external cladding fitting to all
three sides of her end-terrace FOC under some grant or other. But the cost
isn't trivial for those of us that would have to pay, and certainly needs to
be thought about in terms beyond economic returns.
On knocking down to build 'better' - a crime of our times! There is a
reasonably vocal lobby to prevent this happening, but the house building mob
is pretty powerful.
On 4 Nov 2022 at 08:28:04 GMT, "Brian Gaff" wrote:
> I don't know but the problem seems to me that this is very hard if like
> myself there is stuff screwed to the walls. I'd prefer the fix to be
> outside. Some kind of cladding that insulates. However the powers that be
> are all talking about knocking these type of houses down and rebuilding with
> more insulation. I hope I'm gone by the time they can just take your paid
> for house and shove you somewhere else in a modern house.
> Brian
--
The Natural Philosopher
Nov 4, 2022, 5:08:40 AM11/4/22
to
'hermetically sealed triple glazed, 12" thick celotex' in floor walls
and ceiling, then the losses from trickle vents are not going to be
significant.
In short, as you go for ever greater levels of insulation, different
items become the dominant heat loss. Once you have draught proofed a
house an insulated roof comes next, after that the walls are an issue,
once you have done those the floors are an issue, and when those are
sorted your dominant heat loss is ventilation.
So you wouldn't 'retrofit' HRV until and unless you had 'retrofitted'
all the above.
And, frankly, it would have been cheaper to knock the bastard down and
start again.
--
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain
farter
Nov 4, 2022, 5:12:58 AM11/4/22
to
On Fri, 04 Nov 2022 19:44:06 +1100, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 03/11/2022 16:53, Theo wrote:
>> In a house in the winter it's warmer on the inside than the outside.
>> People
>> inside breathe out moisture (and fires, cooking and bathing) which goes
>> into
>> the air because it's warm. In a traditional house, the walls are
>> permeable.
>> This differential temperature/moisture profile pushes the moisture
>> through
>> the walls and is dried off by the wind outside. All is well. Similarly
>> when it rains and the wall is soaked, the moisture has a letout the
>> other
>> way. You end up with a smooth moisture profile because it can always
>> equilibrate with the layer next to it.
>>
> Bollocks. I lived in a single 4" thick thick brick house.
> The water used to run down the walls inside in winter.
>
> You cant get they water out as fast as its put in, especially in a
> bathroom.
>
> We dont sew ourselves into our underwear for winter any more.
How does that work with shitting and pissing ?
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 03/11/2022 16:53, Theo wrote:
>> In a house in the winter it's warmer on the inside than the outside.
>> People
>> inside breathe out moisture (and fires, cooking and bathing) which goes
>> into
>> the air because it's warm. In a traditional house, the walls are
>> permeable.
>> This differential temperature/moisture profile pushes the moisture
>> through
>> the walls and is dried off by the wind outside. All is well. Similarly
>> when it rains and the wall is soaked, the moisture has a letout the
>> other
>> way. You end up with a smooth moisture profile because it can always
>> equilibrate with the layer next to it.
>>
> Bollocks. I lived in a single 4" thick thick brick house.
> The water used to run down the walls inside in winter.
>
> You cant get they water out as fast as its put in, especially in a
> bathroom.
>
> We dont sew ourselves into our underwear for winter any more.
RJH
Nov 4, 2022, 5:21:47 AM11/4/22
to
John Rumm
Nov 4, 2022, 5:57:55 AM11/4/22
to
On 04/11/2022 07:21, RJH wrote:
installing it between battens then you have a break in the continuity of
the VCL at each batten even if the insulation board itself is foil
faced. (you also have a cold bridge at each batten)
If you were using foil backed PB, then you would not need an additional
VCL.
Personally I would stick the insulation board to the wall, then batten
over it, and fix the PB to the battens - that eliminates the cold bridge
and gives a continuous VCL on the warm side of the wall.
Peeler
Nov 4, 2022, 6:09:19 AM11/4/22
to
On Fri, 04 Nov 2022 20:12:47 +1100, farter, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:
<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>
--
Tim+ about trolling Rodent Speed:
He is by far the most persistent troll who seems to be able to get under the
skin of folk who really should know better. Since when did arguing with a
troll ever achieve anything (beyond giving the troll pleasure)?
MID: <1421057667.659518815.743...@news.individual.net>
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:
<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>
--
Tim+ about trolling Rodent Speed:
He is by far the most persistent troll who seems to be able to get under the
skin of folk who really should know better. Since when did arguing with a
troll ever achieve anything (beyond giving the troll pleasure)?
MID: <1421057667.659518815.743...@news.individual.net>
Mathew Newton
Nov 4, 2022, 1:55:36 PM11/4/22
to
On Friday, 4 November 2022 at 08:57:44 UTC, RJH wrote:
> And are there any real world examples of retrofitting heat recovery
> ventialtion systems?
My house! ;-)
> And are there any real world examples of retrofitting heat recovery
> ventialtion systems?
We extended the ground floor and made an open plan kitchen/diner/lounge area, and one thing that my wife was keen on was that the kitchen didn't look too 'kitcheny' in what would become our main living space so we looked at avoiding the use of any wall cupboards and also a conventional extractor hood that we'd previously had... The latter sowed a seed that led to me exploring retrofitting a whole-house MVHR system which, looking back, was a hell of a lot of work however the end result has been fantastic. Warm fresh air throughout, towels and wet washing drying quickly indoors, lower dust levels and a slight cooling effect in certain conditions in the summer. As I say though, hard work and that's even with the opportunity of having ceilings down, having a house built with I-beams running in a fortunate direction etc that we had.
Theo
Nov 4, 2022, 5:08:16 PM11/4/22
to
Mathew Newton <mathewja...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> We extended the ground floor and made an open plan kitchen/diner/lounge
> area, and one thing that my wife was keen on was that the kitchen didn't
> look too 'kitcheny' in what would become our main living space so we
> looked at avoiding the use of any wall cupboards and also a conventional
> extractor hood that we'd previously had... The latter sowed a seed that
> led to me exploring retrofitting a whole-house MVHR system which, looking
> back, was a hell of a lot of work however the end result has been
> fantastic. Warm fresh air throughout, towels and wet washing drying
> quickly indoors, lower dust levels and a slight cooling effect in certain
> conditions in the summer. As I say though, hard work and that's even with
> the opportunity of having ceilings down, having a house built with I-beams
> running in a fortunate direction etc that we had.
How airtight is your house? I've occasionally seen them go by on ebay for
> We extended the ground floor and made an open plan kitchen/diner/lounge
> area, and one thing that my wife was keen on was that the kitchen didn't
> look too 'kitcheny' in what would become our main living space so we
> looked at avoiding the use of any wall cupboards and also a conventional
> extractor hood that we'd previously had... The latter sowed a seed that
> led to me exploring retrofitting a whole-house MVHR system which, looking
> back, was a hell of a lot of work however the end result has been
> fantastic. Warm fresh air throughout, towels and wet washing drying
> quickly indoors, lower dust levels and a slight cooling effect in certain
> conditions in the summer. As I say though, hard work and that's even with
> the opportunity of having ceilings down, having a house built with I-beams
> running in a fortunate direction etc that we had.
not-too-much, but wondered if having a chimney, a leaky loft etc might mean
there's not as much point.
What was the major work? Ductwork to all the rooms?
Theo
Animal
Nov 4, 2022, 5:30:54 PM11/4/22
to
Put up polystyrene or PIR sheet, skip the battens unless you want to hang very heavy stuff on the wall. Cover with foil unless the insulation is already foiled, plaster & skim.
Mathew Newton
Nov 4, 2022, 6:31:46 PM11/4/22
to
On Friday, 4 November 2022 at 21:08:16 UTC, Theo wrote:
> How airtight is your house? I've occasionally seen them go by on ebay for
> not-too-much, but wondered if having a chimney, a leaky loft etc might mean
> there's not as much point.
Hard to quantify as whilst it was built in 2007 and so ought to be reasonably air tight in terms of expected spec it was built by Persimmon and so its anyone’s guess how much practice might differ to theory! Subjectively speaking however I’ve found the house to be very well built and no obvious major leaks, and no chimneys either. Many say/assume MVHR is no use in anything less than a Passivhaus but I can categorically say this is not true.
> How airtight is your house? I've occasionally seen them go by on ebay for
> not-too-much, but wondered if having a chimney, a leaky loft etc might mean
> there's not as much point.
> What was the major work? Ductwork to all the rooms?
RJH
Nov 4, 2022, 7:40:43 PM11/4/22
to
On 4 Nov 2022 at 09:57:50 GMT, John Rumm wrote:
> On 04/11/2022 07:21, RJH wrote:
>> On 3 Nov 2022 at 14:51:13 GMT, Ben Blaukopf wrote:
>>
>>> What I would like to do is batten out the solid wall, stick a bit of board
>>> insulation between the battens, then VCL, plasterboard, skim layer. Partly
>>> because this will make the finished surface of the solid wall flush with the
>>> finished surface of the cavity wall.
>>
>> Why do you need a VCL if you're using impermeable insulation materials?
>
> That would assume the insulation materials are impermeable... If just
> installing it between battens then you have a break in the continuity of
> the VCL at each batten even if the insulation board itself is foil
> faced. (you also have a cold bridge at each batten)
>
> If you were using foil backed PB, then you would not need an additional
> VCL.
>
> Personally I would stick the insulation board to the wall, then batten
> over it, and fix the PB to the battens - that eliminates the cold bridge
> and gives a continuous VCL on the warm side of the wall.
Um. How would you fix the battens without cold bridging?!
> On 04/11/2022 07:21, RJH wrote:
>> On 3 Nov 2022 at 14:51:13 GMT, Ben Blaukopf wrote:
>>
>>> What I would like to do is batten out the solid wall, stick a bit of board
>>> insulation between the battens, then VCL, plasterboard, skim layer. Partly
>>> because this will make the finished surface of the solid wall flush with the
>>> finished surface of the cavity wall.
>>
>> Why do you need a VCL if you're using impermeable insulation materials?
>
> That would assume the insulation materials are impermeable... If just
> installing it between battens then you have a break in the continuity of
> the VCL at each batten even if the insulation board itself is foil
> faced. (you also have a cold bridge at each batten)
>
> If you were using foil backed PB, then you would not need an additional
> VCL.
>
> Personally I would stick the insulation board to the wall, then batten
> over it, and fix the PB to the battens - that eliminates the cold bridge
> and gives a continuous VCL on the warm side of the wall.
And while I have stuck insulation to one wall in my house, then battened over,
I do wonder how long the glue keeps its 'stick' . . .
RJH
Nov 5, 2022, 3:40:54 AM11/5/22
to
On 4 Nov 2022 at 22:31:44 GMT, Mathew Newton wrote:
> On Friday, 4 November 2022 at 21:08:16 UTC, Theo wrote:
>
>> How airtight is your house? I've occasionally seen them go by on ebay for
>> not-too-much, but wondered if having a chimney, a leaky loft etc might mean
>> there's not as much point.
>
> Hard to quantify as whilst it was built in 2007 and so ought to be reasonably
> air tight in terms of expected spec it was built by Persimmon and so its
> anyone’s guess how much practice might differ to theory! Subjectively speaking
> however I’ve found the house to be very well built and no obvious major leaks,
> and no chimneys either. Many say/assume MVHR is no use in anything less than a
> Passivhaus but I can categorically say this is not true.
>
Apparently it makes for a very comfortable home - never experienced it myself
> On Friday, 4 November 2022 at 21:08:16 UTC, Theo wrote:
>
>> How airtight is your house? I've occasionally seen them go by on ebay for
>> not-too-much, but wondered if having a chimney, a leaky loft etc might mean
>> there's not as much point.
>
> Hard to quantify as whilst it was built in 2007 and so ought to be reasonably
> air tight in terms of expected spec it was built by Persimmon and so its
> anyone’s guess how much practice might differ to theory! Subjectively speaking
> however I’ve found the house to be very well built and no obvious major leaks,
> and no chimneys either. Many say/assume MVHR is no use in anything less than a
> Passivhaus but I can categorically say this is not true.
>
though.
>> What was the major work? Ductwork to all the rooms?
>
> Yeah pretty much. As like most installations I used 63mm semi-flexible radial
> ducting and whilst it’s fairly straightforward to use it was still quite a
> task routing one to every (or most) rooms and then bringing it all together in
> the loft to the manifolds connected to the main unit, which as it happens I
> did buy off eBay as surplus stock.
of the unusing chimney stacks might be one solution.
Shame Passivhaus isn't free, but they've clearly thought about retrofit:
https://www.passivhaustrust.org.uk/event_detail.php?eId=952
Theo
Nov 5, 2022, 5:22:49 AM11/5/22
to
You can get thermally broken fixings: essentially a screw with a plastic
collar. The screw goes deep into the collar which might protrude 30mm above
the head of the screw. The plastic doesn't conduct heat very well.
eg
https://www.phstore.co.uk/insulation-fixings/
> And while I have stuck insulation to one wall in my house, then battened over,
> I do wonder how long the glue keeps its 'stick' . . .
The foil backed stuff tends to delaminate from the foil fairly easily, so I
wouldn't rely on glue alone. The battens however will be screwed into
whatever's behind and spread the load across the insulation so it doesn't
droop.
Theo
collar. The screw goes deep into the collar which might protrude 30mm above
the head of the screw. The plastic doesn't conduct heat very well.
eg
https://www.phstore.co.uk/insulation-fixings/
> And while I have stuck insulation to one wall in my house, then battened over,
> I do wonder how long the glue keeps its 'stick' . . .
wouldn't rely on glue alone. The battens however will be screwed into
whatever's behind and spread the load across the insulation so it doesn't
droop.
Theo
Robin
Nov 5, 2022, 5:54:19 AM11/5/22
to
had cost to bring his modest Victorian mid-terrace up to
close-to-Passivhaus. Around £200,000. And that was with internal
insulation at the front as he couldn't get planning permission for
external.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Theo
Nov 5, 2022, 6:12:17 AM11/5/22
to
Robin <r...@outlook.com> wrote:
> JOOI I asked the architect at an Open House weekend 10 years ago what it
> had cost to bring his modest Victorian mid-terrace up to
> close-to-Passivhaus. Around £200,000. And that was with internal
> insulation at the front as he couldn't get planning permission for
> external.
I wonder where the costs went. Assuming you're starting with a shell (ie
> JOOI I asked the architect at an Open House weekend 10 years ago what it
> had cost to bring his modest Victorian mid-terrace up to
> close-to-Passivhaus. Around £200,000. And that was with internal
> insulation at the front as he couldn't get planning permission for
> external.
empty and due for full redecoration anyway) I don't see it being that
expensive to thoroughly insulate and seal everything. Quite a bit of labour
involved but not intrinisically complicated. I'm thinking tens-of-k not
hundreds-of-k.
Maybe there was a lot of fancy windows involved, or maybe they were doing an
extension as well? Or if they were trying to live there at the same time?
Theo
Robin
Nov 5, 2022, 7:03:51 AM11/5/22
to
IIRC some of the biggish items were:
- replace suspended wooden floors by solid (else risk of rot and hard to
get good UFH)
- new windows (triple glazed) moved outwards ('cos of the extl
insulation) and some also sideways (as a result of adding extl
insulation to rear extension wall)
- external insulation & render
- new roof [wd at v least need to extend roof & upgrade roof insulation]
- new CH with UFH
- rewire
- new ceilings
- plaster & decorate throughout
Of course a lot wd be needed for any full refurb. But most people don't
do the floors and wall insulation or go for such good windows.
The Natural Philosopher
Nov 5, 2022, 11:11:47 AM11/5/22
to
behind it that can be dob-glued onto raw single brick. Or glued to
studwork attached to the blockwork
Fast and very effective
https://www.kingspan.com/gb/en/products/insulation-boards/wall-insulation-boards/kooltherm-k118-insulated-plasterboard/
I would absolutely uses this onto a single brick wall.
--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."
The Natural Philosopher
Nov 5, 2022, 11:16:49 AM11/5/22
to
On 05/11/2022 10:12, Theo wrote:
> Robin <r...@outlook.com> wrote:
>> JOOI I asked the architect at an Open House weekend 10 years ago what it
>> had cost to bring his modest Victorian mid-terrace up to
>> close-to-Passivhaus. Around £200,000. And that was with internal
>> insulation at the front as he couldn't get planning permission for
>> external.
>
> I wonder where the costs went. Assuming you're starting with a shell (ie
> empty and due for full redecoration anyway) I don't see it being that
> expensive to thoroughly insulate and seal everything. Quite a bit of labour
> involved but not intrinisically complicated. I'm thinking tens-of-k not
> hundreds-of-k.
Well it depends on size, but of course you are looking at stripping out
>> JOOI I asked the architect at an Open House weekend 10 years ago what it
>> had cost to bring his modest Victorian mid-terrace up to
>> close-to-Passivhaus. Around £200,000. And that was with internal
>> insulation at the front as he couldn't get planning permission for
>> external.
>
> I wonder where the costs went. Assuming you're starting with a shell (ie
> empty and due for full redecoration anyway) I don't see it being that
> expensive to thoroughly insulate and seal everything. Quite a bit of labour
> involved but not intrinisically complicated. I'm thinking tens-of-k not
> hundreds-of-k.
the interior completely, probably lifting the floors, replacing all the
windows, lining all te walls, replastering, re decorating etc etc.
I think from a shell to a completed livable space is usually about half
the total cost.
And you would re wire and replumb and redo all the bathrooms and
kitchens as a matter of course.
As I said in an earlier post, if its not a terrace, I'd be looking at
knocking it down and starting again.
Or the neatrest equivalent - gut the inside totally and replace it
I think £200k sounds cheap.
>
> Maybe there was a lot of fancy windows involved, or maybe they were doing an
> extension as well? Or if they were trying to live there at the same time?
>
> Theo
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.
- George Orwell
Andrew
Nov 5, 2022, 1:01:27 PM11/5/22
to
terraced houses in the North West but failed to replace them.
Andrew
Nov 5, 2022, 1:42:20 PM11/5/22
to
On 04/11/2022 09:57, John Rumm wrote:
> On 04/11/2022 07:21, RJH wrote:
>> On 3 Nov 2022 at 14:51:13 GMT, Ben Blaukopf wrote:
>>
>>> What I would like to do is batten out the solid wall, stick a bit of
>>> board
>>> insulation between the battens, then VCL, plasterboard, skim layer.
>>> Partly
>>> because this will make the finished surface of the solid wall flush
>>> with the
>>> finished surface of the cavity wall.
>>
>> Why do you need a VCL if you're using impermeable insulation materials?
>
> That would assume the insulation materials are impermeable... If just
> installing it between battens then you have a break in the continuity of
> the VCL at each batten even if the insulation board itself is foil
> faced. (you also have a cold bridge at each batten)
>
> If you were using foil backed PB, then you would not need an additional
> VCL.
>
> Personally I would stick the insulation board to the wall, then batten
> over it, and fix the PB to the battens - that eliminates the cold bridge
> and gives a continuous VCL on the warm side of the wall.
>
That's what I did to the North-facing front of my house.
> On 04/11/2022 07:21, RJH wrote:
>> On 3 Nov 2022 at 14:51:13 GMT, Ben Blaukopf wrote:
>>
>>> What I would like to do is batten out the solid wall, stick a bit of
>>> board
>>> insulation between the battens, then VCL, plasterboard, skim layer.
>>> Partly
>>> because this will make the finished surface of the solid wall flush
>>> with the
>>> finished surface of the cavity wall.
>>
>> Why do you need a VCL if you're using impermeable insulation materials?
>
> That would assume the insulation materials are impermeable... If just
> installing it between battens then you have a break in the continuity of
> the VCL at each batten even if the insulation board itself is foil
> faced. (you also have a cold bridge at each batten)
>
> If you were using foil backed PB, then you would not need an additional
> VCL.
>
> Personally I would stick the insulation board to the wall, then batten
> over it, and fix the PB to the battens - that eliminates the cold bridge
> and gives a continuous VCL on the warm side of the wall.
>
I dug out the ground floor screed, removed the sand/cement
plaster from inside of the front wall (to strengthen the
fractured joints in the blockwork - 1976 built where the
mortar dried too fast in THE heatwave) then applied
50mm full length Celotex sheets fixed to the wall using
30mm battens cut down from 95mm CLS treated framing, so
three battens per original timber. Battens fitted
horizontally and fixed with stainless steel frame anchors
into the original blockwork, and used 30mm Quinntherm
(much more accurately made than Celotex) to infill between
the battens, followed by 9mm PB and skim.
I also ripped all the plaster off the window reveal and
pulled off the galvanised mesh from the lintel. I made
up my own foil-backed PB using spray adhesive and Turkey
wrap and boarded out the reveal using Foaming PU adhesive
intended for fixing PB to effectively make my own insulation
backed PB to the exact thickness.
Doing the window reveal was most of the work.
This gives 80mm PIR inside, plus a 65mm cavity filled
with rockwool, plus 70mm on the floor in between 75x25
battens screwed into the slab with a 2nd 1200 gauge dpc
Flooring battens fitted with 250mm spacing so that I could
use Wickes 18mm T&G flooring (2009), glued to create
360mm wide planks the length of the room. Each plank then
attached to the battens with Spax screws through the
tongue. I predrilled and countersunk the hole. Laborious
but my time is free. There were many short bits in those
packs of Wickes flooring hence the need to glue several to
create big structural planks (that don't creak and wobble).
If I had done more research I could have bought decent hardwood
flooring in longer lengths for not much more.
I might get some quotes to have the end gable wall externally
insulated and rendered. Faces east, and only has 65mm rockwool
filled cavity but the brickies threw all the 'snots' down inside
the cavity so that I had a solid wall for the 3 courses above the
dpc (now removed from the inside) but I expect every wall tie
will be encased in a big glob of mortar snots which creates
lots of cold bridges.
RJH
Nov 5, 2022, 2:32:32 PM11/5/22
to
On 5 Nov 2022 at 15:11:43 GMT, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 05/11/2022 09:22, Theo wrote:
>> RJH <patch...@gmx.com> wrote:
>>> Um. How would you fix the battens without cold bridging?!
>>
>> You can get thermally broken fixings: essentially a screw with a plastic
>> collar. The screw goes deep into the collar which might protrude 30mm above
>> the head of the screw. The plastic doesn't conduct heat very well.
>>
>> eg
>> https://www.phstore.co.uk/insulation-fixings/
>>
Ah yes, thanks. They've come on a bit since I last looked. I used 25mm battens
> On 05/11/2022 09:22, Theo wrote:
>> RJH <patch...@gmx.com> wrote:
>>> Um. How would you fix the battens without cold bridging?!
>>
>> You can get thermally broken fixings: essentially a screw with a plastic
>> collar. The screw goes deep into the collar which might protrude 30mm above
>> the head of the screw. The plastic doesn't conduct heat very well.
>>
>> eg
>> https://www.phstore.co.uk/insulation-fixings/
>>
with 25mm celotex in between, then 25mm lapped over the top. Not ideal but
easy to do.
>>> And while I have stuck insulation to one wall in my house, then battened over,
>>> I do wonder how long the glue keeps its 'stick' . . .
>>
>> The foil backed stuff tends to delaminate from the foil fairly easily, so I
>> wouldn't rely on glue alone. The battens however will be screwed into
>> whatever's behind and spread the load across the insulation so it doesn't
>> droop.
>>
>> Theo
>
> As I said, you can buy plasterboard with foil then 50mm of celotex
> behind it that can be dob-glued onto raw single brick. Or glued to
> studwork attached to the blockwork
>
> Fast and very effective
>
> https://www.kingspan.com/gb/en/products/insulation-boards/wall-insulation-boards/kooltherm-k118-insulated-plasterboard/
>
> I would absolutely uses this onto a single brick wall.
John Rumm
Nov 5, 2022, 3:57:48 PM11/5/22
to
On 04/11/2022 23:40, RJH wrote:
> On 4 Nov 2022 at 09:57:50 GMT, John Rumm wrote:
>
>> On 04/11/2022 07:21, RJH wrote:
>>> On 3 Nov 2022 at 14:51:13 GMT, Ben Blaukopf wrote:
>>>
>>>> What I would like to do is batten out the solid wall, stick a bit of board
>>>> insulation between the battens, then VCL, plasterboard, skim layer. Partly
>>>> because this will make the finished surface of the solid wall flush with the
>>>> finished surface of the cavity wall.
>>>
>>> Why do you need a VCL if you're using impermeable insulation materials?
>>
>> That would assume the insulation materials are impermeable... If just
>> installing it between battens then you have a break in the continuity of
>> the VCL at each batten even if the insulation board itself is foil
>> faced. (you also have a cold bridge at each batten)
>>
>> If you were using foil backed PB, then you would not need an additional
>> VCL.
>>
>> Personally I would stick the insulation board to the wall, then batten
>> over it, and fix the PB to the battens - that eliminates the cold bridge
>> and gives a continuous VCL on the warm side of the wall.
>
> Um. How would you fix the battens without cold bridging?!
Rigid insulation board, batten over, drill a hole though the batten,
> On 4 Nov 2022 at 09:57:50 GMT, John Rumm wrote:
>
>> On 04/11/2022 07:21, RJH wrote:
>>> On 3 Nov 2022 at 14:51:13 GMT, Ben Blaukopf wrote:
>>>
>>>> What I would like to do is batten out the solid wall, stick a bit of board
>>>> insulation between the battens, then VCL, plasterboard, skim layer. Partly
>>>> because this will make the finished surface of the solid wall flush with the
>>>> finished surface of the cavity wall.
>>>
>>> Why do you need a VCL if you're using impermeable insulation materials?
>>
>> That would assume the insulation materials are impermeable... If just
>> installing it between battens then you have a break in the continuity of
>> the VCL at each batten even if the insulation board itself is foil
>> faced. (you also have a cold bridge at each batten)
>>
>> If you were using foil backed PB, then you would not need an additional
>> VCL.
>>
>> Personally I would stick the insulation board to the wall, then batten
>> over it, and fix the PB to the battens - that eliminates the cold bridge
>> and gives a continuous VCL on the warm side of the wall.
>
> Um. How would you fix the battens without cold bridging?!
insulation and into the wall. Then insert a long screw with a wall plus
started on the end of it. Tap it in until the plug is seated in the
wall, and then drive the screw home.
You still have a tiny cold bridge on the screw itself, but the plastic
plug gives a small thermal break at the far end of the screw and
ultimately the head will be under plasterboard.
> And while I have stuck insulation to one wall in my house, then battened over,
> I do wonder how long the glue keeps its 'stick' . . .
You don't have to use glue at all - you can get nylon "hammer in"
fixings for insulation boards - you drill a hole through the board and
into the wall, then inset the fixing, and hammer home its nylon "nail".
E.g. (one of many):
https://www.fischer.co.uk/en-gb/products/insulation-fixings/etics-fixings-for-systems/hammerset-for-solid-and-hollow-building-materials/termoz-pn-8
Depending on your final finish, you may even be able to do without
battens altogether. When I dry lined my workshop I just offered 50mm PIR
boards into place, with a sheet of 1/2" ply in front of them, drilled
through the ply, insulation, and into the wall. Then used brown wall
plugs on the end of 5" screws.
Animal
Nov 5, 2022, 10:01:53 PM11/5/22
to
Andrew
Nov 6, 2022, 1:19:52 PM11/6/22
to
On 05/11/2022 19:57, John Rumm wrote:
>
> Depending on your final finish, you may even be able to do without
> battens altogether. When I dry lined my workshop I just offered 50mm PIR
> boards into place, with a sheet of 1/2" ply in front of them, drilled
> through the ply, insulation, and into the wall. Then used brown wall
> plugs on the end of 5" screws.
>
But you need screws with heads that are larger in diameter than the
>
> Depending on your final finish, you may even be able to do without
> battens altogether. When I dry lined my workshop I just offered 50mm PIR
> boards into place, with a sheet of 1/2" ply in front of them, drilled
> through the ply, insulation, and into the wall. Then used brown wall
> plugs on the end of 5" screws.
>
size of the hole needed to push the ?plasplug through the batten or
plywood, surely ?.
Frame anchors would achieve the same.
Animal
Nov 6, 2022, 6:54:42 PM11/6/22
to
> Frame anchors would achieve the same.
John Rumm
Nov 6, 2022, 8:39:18 PM11/6/22
to
i.e. most screws of adequate size will also have a significantly larger
head than a brown plug (which normally requires a 7mm hole).
> Frame anchors would achieve the same.
Theo
Nov 7, 2022, 2:45:19 PM11/7/22
to
Robin <r...@outlook.com> wrote:
> > Robin <r...@outlook.com> wrote:
> >> JOOI I asked the architect at an Open House weekend 10 years ago what it
> >> had cost to bring his modest Victorian mid-terrace up to
> >> close-to-Passivhaus. Around £200,000. And that was with internal
> >> insulation at the front as he couldn't get planning permission for
> >> external.
>
> > Robin <r...@outlook.com> wrote:
> >> JOOI I asked the architect at an Open House weekend 10 years ago what it
> >> had cost to bring his modest Victorian mid-terrace up to
> >> close-to-Passivhaus. Around £200,000. And that was with internal
> >> insulation at the front as he couldn't get planning permission for
> >> external.
>
> This was not DIY. And it was in London.
Ah, London. Where a modest Victorian mid-terrace can be several million
quid.
> IIRC some of the biggish items were:
>
> - replace suspended wooden floors by solid (else risk of rot and hard to
> get good UFH)
> - new windows (triple glazed) moved outwards ('cos of the extl
> insulation) and some also sideways (as a result of adding extl
> insulation to rear extension wall)
> - external insulation & render
> - new roof [wd at v least need to extend roof & upgrade roof insulation]
> - new CH with UFH
> - rewire
> - new ceilings
> - plaster & decorate throughout
>
> Of course a lot wd be needed for any full refurb. But most people don't
> do the floors and wall insulation or go for such good windows.
rebuilt it inside the facade and the internal walls. I'm not surprised that
came in at 200k, since it's essentially a new house.
I could imagine that's a pretty good return in certain parts of London, if
you turned it from something clapped out into an attractive family home.
Not sure why they went for UFH in a passivehaus though - the point of a PH
is you need almost no heating.
Theo
The Natural Philosopher
Nov 7, 2022, 2:55:56 PM11/7/22
to
On 07/11/2022 19:45, Theo wrote:
> That sounds like there was nothing left but the walls - they've essentially
> rebuilt it inside the facade and the internal walls. I'm not surprised that
> came in at 200k, since it's essentially a new house.
>
+1
> That sounds like there was nothing left but the walls - they've essentially
> rebuilt it inside the facade and the internal walls. I'm not surprised that
> came in at 200k, since it's essentially a new house.
>
> I could imagine that's a pretty good return in certain parts of London, if
> you turned it from something clapped out into an attractive family home.
>
> Not sure why they went for UFH in a passivehaus though - the point of a PH
> is you need almost no heating.
and what electrical kit
Even with HRV, there is a limit to how passive a house can be and still
be warm, AND ventilated.
--
"Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."
― Confucius
Theo
Nov 7, 2022, 5:03:37 PM11/7/22
to
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 07/11/2022 19:45, Theo wrote:
> > Not sure why they went for UFH in a passivehaus though - the point of a PH
> > is you need almost no heating.
>
> Well it depends on the size of the house. And how many people are in it
> and what electrical kit
>
> Even with HRV, there is a limit to how passive a house can be and still
> be warm, AND ventilated.
I suppose the site constrained it to some degree - one feature of a PH is
> On 07/11/2022 19:45, Theo wrote:
> > Not sure why they went for UFH in a passivehaus though - the point of a PH
> > is you need almost no heating.
>
> Well it depends on the size of the house. And how many people are in it
> and what electrical kit
>
> Even with HRV, there is a limit to how passive a house can be and still
> be warm, AND ventilated.
orientation to make best use of solar gain. I imagine this site was neither
oriented well nor had window openings optimised for that. So that would
reduce your scope somewhat.
But I'd have thought a bit of electrical heating would be sufficient in a
place so well insulated. I suppose if you went with electric UFH you might
not want to put that on top of wooden floorboards, but solid floors upstairs
sounds like a recipe for complications (not least you may have to reinforce
all the walls downstairs to take the load, and you have nowhere to run
services).
Theo
The Natural Philosopher
Nov 8, 2022, 5:26:05 AM11/8/22
to
On 07/11/2022 22:03, Theo wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 07/11/2022 19:45, Theo wrote:
>>> Not sure why they went for UFH in a passivehaus though - the point of a PH
>>> is you need almost no heating.
>>
>> Well it depends on the size of the house. And how many people are in it
>> and what electrical kit
>>
>> Even with HRV, there is a limit to how passive a house can be and still
>> be warm, AND ventilated.
>
> I suppose the site constrained it to some degree - one feature of a PH is
> orientation to make best use of solar gain. I imagine this site was neither
> oriented well nor had window openings optimised for that. So that would
> reduce your scope somewhat.
>
> But I'd have thought a bit of electrical heating would be sufficient in a
> place so well insulated. I suppose if you went with electric UFH you might
> not want to put that on top of wooden floorboards,
No, you put it underneath.
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 07/11/2022 19:45, Theo wrote:
>>> Not sure why they went for UFH in a passivehaus though - the point of a PH
>>> is you need almost no heating.
>>
>> Well it depends on the size of the house. And how many people are in it
>> and what electrical kit
>>
>> Even with HRV, there is a limit to how passive a house can be and still
>> be warm, AND ventilated.
>
> I suppose the site constrained it to some degree - one feature of a PH is
> orientation to make best use of solar gain. I imagine this site was neither
> oriented well nor had window openings optimised for that. So that would
> reduce your scope somewhat.
>
> But I'd have thought a bit of electrical heating would be sufficient in a
> place so well insulated. I suppose if you went with electric UFH you might
> not want to put that on top of wooden floorboards,
It goes ceiling->celotex mouldings for hot pipes or resistance wires ->
air gap ->upstairs flooring.
but solid floors upstairs
> sounds like a recipe for complications (not least you may have to reinforce
> all the walls downstairs to take the load, and you have nowhere to run
> services).
>
usually plenty of insulation underneath to put wires and pipes in or in
> Theo
--
For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the
very definition of slavery.
Jonathan Swift
0 new messages