Swarf in Diesel Tank

[Eednud]

Just put my 2 year old, 60,000 mile VW Caddy Bluemotion in for a service
at Main Dealer as per the Leasing company requirements.

Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank and they have to
replace every part of the Fuel System apart from Tank and fuel lines!
and I wont get the van back for another week..

The van is leased, so not really my problem, or so I thought.
They now say this could have been caused by putting petrol in the tank
at some point.

I can see the Leasing company trying to use this to get me to pay for
the repairs. I know the van has never had petrol in the tank, as I am
the only person who has ever driven it.

What is the likely cause of this? I would have thought if a component
was breaking down, then that should be the only part to be replaced, as
the fuel filter would have caught everything else. It could also have
been a fault at the petrol station with their filters.

I don't think they know where the swarf came from, and a easy fix is to
replace everything.

All I do know is I won't be paying for it, and am quite enjoying the
Caddy Sportline I have as a Courtesy Van.
--
Eednud

[Adrian]

On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:55:32 +0000, Eednud wrote:

> Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank and they have to
> replace every part of the Fuel System apart from Tank and fuel lines!
> and I wont get the van back for another week..

> What is the likely cause of this? I would have thought if a component
> was breaking down, then that should be the only part to be replaced, as
> the fuel filter would have caught everything else. It could also have
> been a fault at the petrol station with their filters.

If the pump is starting to wear internally, that'll generate swarf after
the filter - and it'll pass into the rail, the injectors, the return
lines back to the tank then out again through the lift pump before being
caught in the filter.

Common rail diesels are incredibly precisely machined - they have to be,
running fuel pressures of up to 2,000 bar. Yes, two thousand BAR. Damn
near 30,000psi. They rely on the fuel for lubrication - and even
relatively small amounts of contamination with petrol can remove that
lubrication, causing rapid wear...

[Eednud]

Would think VW would cover that under Warranty then. I would think
there was more than 1 fuel filter in the system as well

--
Eednud

[Tim Lamb]

In message <m6a59v$ep$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Adrian
<tooma...@gmail.com> writes

Isn't there also an issue with low sulphur diesel not lubricating the
pump properly?



--
Tim Lamb

[Rod Speed]

"Eednud" <us...@example.net> wrote in message
news:m6a4uh$ui1$1...@dont-email.me...

> Just put my 2 year old, 60,000 mile VW Caddy Bluemotion in for a service
> at Main Dealer as per the Leasing company requirements.
>
> Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank and they have to
> replace every part of the Fuel System apart from Tank and fuel lines! and
> I wont get the van back for another week..
>
> The van is leased, so not really my problem, or so I thought.
> They now say this could have been caused by putting petrol in the tank at
> some point.

Cant see how you can get that from putting petrol in the tank.

[Eednud]

On 10/12/2014 20:17, Rod Speed wrote:
>
>
> "Eednud" <us...@example.net> wrote in message
> news:m6a4uh$ui1$1...@dont-email.me...
>> Just put my 2 year old, 60,000 mile VW Caddy Bluemotion in for a
>> service at Main Dealer as per the Leasing company requirements.
>>
>> Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank and they have
>> to replace every part of the Fuel System apart from Tank and fuel
>> lines! and I wont get the van back for another week..
>>
>> The van is leased, so not really my problem, or so I thought.
>> They now say this could have been caused by putting petrol in the tank
>> at some point.
>
> Cant see how you can get that from putting petrol in the tank.
>

Me neither but Googling it, seems to suggest Diesel acts as a lubricant,
and petrol doesn't.


--
Eednud

[newshound]

On 10/12/2014 19:01, Adrian wrote:

To my mind the term "swarf" describes the sort of metallic debris
generated by turning, milling, or drilling, i.e. relatively large curly
deformed bits of metal. The wear you will normally get in a diesel pump
will be micron-sized and if you collect it it will look like black
sludge, not recognisably metallic at all except perhaps in a high
powered optical microscope or an SEM. I don't think it will be
"glittering" to the naked eye, it would be too small.

But I suppose that sufficiently abrasive debris in the system, something
like sand, might cause scoring in the pump parts (either the lift or the
injector pump?), and perhaps glittery debris. In that case total
replacement sounds like the right strategy (especially if someone else
is paying).

I'd agree that petrol in the system could lead to pump wear.

[Rod Speed]

"Eednud" <us...@example.net> wrote in message

news:m6abj0$ptd$1...@dont-email.me...

Yeah, I spose that is plausible, but how did they discover that
there was swarf on the output side of the pump in a normal
service ? I spose they could have detected erratic ignition and
checked the state of the output of the pump to see if that was
the cause.

[Tim+]

Most warranties don't cover misfuelling, even if you don't recall an
episode. In Northern Ireland they used to have a big problem with dodgy
fuel and whatever the cause, fuel systems were not covered by warranties.

> I would think there was more than 1 fuel filter in the system as well.

Can see how this would help. Once petrol or other low lubricity fuel has
reached the fuel pump, the damage is done. Extra filters won't stop that.

Tim

[JimK]

Sounds like a bent dealer to me.

Care to name?

Jim K

[Andy Burns]

Eednud wrote:

> Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank

> What is the likely cause of this?

I think it's easy for them to blame misfuelling, where petrol wouldn't
provide sufficient lubrication to the diesel pump (some of which operate
at around 30,000 psi) so causing wear in the pump, and the excess fuel
returning to the take would take the swarf with it.

If you know that hasn't happened, then I don't see how they can "prove"
it did

[Adrian]

On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 19:17:00 +0000, Eednud wrote:

>>> Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank and they have
>>> to replace every part of the Fuel System apart from Tank and fuel
>>> lines! and I wont get the van back for another week..
>>
>>> What is the likely cause of this? I would have thought if a component
>>> was breaking down, then that should be the only part to be replaced,
>>> as the fuel filter would have caught everything else. It could also
>>> have been a fault at the petrol station with their filters.

>> If the pump is starting to wear internally, that'll generate swarf
>> after the filter - and it'll pass into the rail, the injectors, the
>> return lines back to the tank then out again through the lift pump
>> before being caught in the filter.
>>
>> Common rail diesels are incredibly precisely machined - they have to
>> be, running fuel pressures of up to 2,000 bar. Yes, two thousand BAR.
>> Damn near 30,000psi. They rely on the fuel for lubrication - and even
>> relatively small amounts of contamination with petrol can remove that
>> lubrication, causing rapid wear...

> Would think VW would cover that under Warranty then.

ITYM "wouldn't", if it is fuel system contamination.

> I would think there was more than 1 fuel filter in the system as well

Between the pump and the injectors...? With 30,000psi...?

[Tim+]

It's easy for owners to deny misfuelling too. I think garages are more
inclined to believe the evidence than the story.

Tim

[Rod Speed]

"Tim+" <timdow...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:485181414439946309.073144...@news.eternal-september.org...

It doesn’t matter what they believe. If they are trying to force
you to pay for it, they have to prove it, not just believe it.

[John Rumm]

And it would not be difficult for a bent garage to lob a few litres of
petrol in it now and run it through the system - that way any
investigation later would find evidence of petrol contamination.


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Harry Bloomfield]

Adrian formulated the question :

> If the pump is starting to wear internally, that'll generate swarf after
> the filter - and it'll pass into the rail, the injectors, the return
> lines back to the tank then out again through the lift pump before being
> caught in the filter.

You are forgetting the under-bonnet diesel filter!

Pump and strainer in the tank, piped forward to the under bonnet
filter, which catches all of the fine material. From there it feeds
onto the HP pump, the rail, injectors. Any surplus then returns to the
tank maybe via a fuel cooler. If there is a problem with swarf, that
under-bonnet filter should catch it and it would show there.

If there is swarf in the tank, it has either been there from new, or is
coming from the HP pump, or perhaps from the in tank pump - but if the
latter, it must have escaped via the strainer the WRONG way, the
reverse direction to the flow.

I see no reason to replace anything - apart from the component which is
failing, if there is one. The system can simply be flushed out, the old
filter checked and maybe replaced. Sounds like the garage are turning a
drama into a crisis.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

[Harry Bloomfield]

After serious thinking Rod Speed wrote :

> Cant see how you can get that from putting petrol in the tank.

Petrol has no lubrication properties, which would cause massive wear on
the LP pump and the HP pump.

[Gazz]

"John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message
news:XM6dnce2IaH_FBTJ...@brightview.co.uk...

> On 10/12/2014 23:20, Tim+ wrote:
>> Andy Burns <usenet....@adslpipe.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Eednud wrote:
>>>
>>>> Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank
>>>> What is the likely cause of this?
>>>
>>> I think it's easy for them to blame misfuelling, where petrol wouldn't
>>> provide sufficient lubrication to the diesel pump (some of which operate
>>> at around 30,000 psi) so causing wear in the pump, and the excess fuel
>>> returning to the take would take the swarf with it.
>>>
>>> If you know that hasn't happened, then I don't see how they can "prove"
>>> it did
>>
>> It's easy for owners to deny misfuelling too. I think garages are more
>> inclined to believe the evidence than the story.
>
> And it would not be difficult for a bent garage to lob a few litres of
> petrol in it now and run it through the system - that way any
> investigation later would find evidence of petrol contamination.

but like someone else pointed out, what part of the service were they doing
when they discovered this 'glittering' in the fuel tank? that's what you
have to ask them.

is sticking a boroscope down the tanks filler neck part of the servicing
procedure? assuming this is a typical small van with a fuel tank under the
floor and a filler tube that winds it's way around things to get to the
filler hole,
i think the last vans that had fuel tanks like trucks with the filler neck
and cap part of the tank it's self (hence you could see into the tank when
you removed the cap) was the square shape - pre~99 Iveco daily, and the
square shape merc's.. 609, 811 and so on.....

And even then it's not part of the service schedule to look in the tank
whilst shining a torch in there,
Tho' did once have to remove the fuel tank from a merc 609 to clean it out,
but that was because it had sat with the cap missing for months at a
coachbuilders who were converting it to a recovery truck, they went bankrupt
mid build, and it was spring time, so a blue tit built a nest in the
tank..... knew that before i emptied the tank as i kept getting blue and
yellow feathers in the pre-filter bowl every time the engine died from fuel
starvation.

[j...@mdfs.net]

If you've only put a small amount of petrol in a diesel tank aren't
you supposed to fill it to the top with diesel to dilute it and
hammer up and down the motorway for a bit to burn it off through
the engine?

jgh

[Harry Bloomfield]

j...@mdfs.net brought next idea :

A small amount will do no harm (say 5%), but best to then keep the tank
filled up a few times, each time there is room to put some in, so as to
dilute in down as soon as possible. Hammer it - no reason to, just
drive it normally.

[Adrian]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:47:15 +0000, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

>> If the pump is starting to wear internally, that'll generate swarf
>> after the filter - and it'll pass into the rail, the injectors, the
>> return lines back to the tank then out again through the lift pump
>> before being caught in the filter.

> You are forgetting the under-bonnet diesel filter!

No, I'm not.

> Pump and strainer in the tank, piped forward to the under bonnet filter,
> which catches all of the fine material. From there it feeds onto the HP
> pump, the rail, injectors. Any surplus then returns to the tank maybe
> via a fuel cooler. If there is a problem with swarf, that under-bonnet
> filter should catch it and it would show there.

Yes, exactly.

> If there is swarf in the tank, it has either been there from new, or is
> coming from the HP pump

Which is exactly what I suggested.

> I see no reason to replace anything - apart from the component which is
> failing, if there is one.

Because the swarf has circulated through the entire system, having
started from the HP pump, before being stopped by the filter just before
the HP pump.

[Adrian]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2014 14:05:58 +0000, Gazz wrote:

> but like someone else pointed out, what part of the service were they
> doing when they discovered this 'glittering' in the fuel tank? that's
> what you have to ask them.

Changing the fuel filter involves plenty of fuel spillage, and the
swarf/"glitter" would show up under the workshop lights.

[Eednud]

It was in for its 60K service, also the cat convertor light was on, and
intermittently the Engine management light would come on, so I asked
them to look at that.

I assume they found the swarf in the fuel filter, when it was swapped
out, and then tried further investigation.

It runs fine, but its down to the lease company to authorise any work.

--
Eednud

[Eednud]

Like I said, it has never had any Petrol in the tank. So this is not the
cause.

--
Eednud

[Rod Speed]

Harry Bloomfield <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote

> Rod Speed wrote

>> Cant see how you can get that from putting petrol in the tank.

> Petrol has no lubrication properties, which would
> cause massive wear on the LP pump and the HP pump.

I wouldn't expect that to produce SWARF tho,
that should at most produce very fine metal dust.

[Rod Speed]

Gazz <No...@m.ta> wrote
> John Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote

>> Tim+ wrote
>>> Andy Burns <usenet....@adslpipe.co.uk> wrote
>>>> Eednud wrote

>>>>> Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank What is the
>>>>> likely cause of this?

>>>> I think it's easy for them to blame misfuelling, where petrol wouldn't
>>>> provide sufficient lubrication to the diesel pump (some of which
>>>> operate
>>>> at around 30,000 psi) so causing wear in the pump, and the excess fuel
>>>> returning to the take would take the swarf with it.

>>>> If you know that hasn't happened, then I don't see how they can "prove"
>>>> it did

>>> It's easy for owners to deny misfuelling too. I think garages are more
>>> inclined to believe the evidence than the story.

>> And it would not be difficult for a bent garage to lob a few litres of
>> petrol in it now and run it through the system - that way any
>> investigation later would find evidence of petrol contamination.

> but like someone else pointed out, what part of the service were they
> doing when they discovered this 'glittering' in the fuel tank? that's what
> you have to ask them.

> is sticking a boroscope down the tanks filler neck part of the servicing
> procedure?

I spose it might be given the very real possibility of putting
petrol in the tank accidentally and that causing pump damage.

But I can't see how that would produce a visible effect in the
tank, that should be downstream of the pump and even the
excess going back into the tank shouldn’t see that since that
should be caught by the filter before it gets back to the tank.

> assuming this is a typical small van with a fuel tank under the floor and
> a filler tube that winds it's way around things to get to the filler hole,
> i think the last vans that had fuel tanks like trucks with the filler neck
> and cap part of the tank it's self (hence you could see into the tank when
> you removed the cap) was the square shape - pre~99 Iveco daily, and the
> square shape merc's.. 609, 811 and so on.....

> And even then it's not part of the service schedule to look in the tank
> whilst shining a torch in there,

Like I said tho, they may have detected less than perfect
engine performance and found the crap in the diesel when
trying to work out why it wasn’t performing as well as it should.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:12:54 +0000, Eednud <us...@example.net> wrote:

>Like I said, it has never had any Petrol in the tank. So this is not the
>cause.

You don't know that for sure.
In Ireland, there has been a spate of rogue diesel and petrol being
sold from trusted forecourts (admittedly not any of the well-known
chains). The diesel is laundered agri-diesel, the petrol is cut with
kerosene. Either will totally bugger up a modern fuel system and/or
engine of the relevant type.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 20:08:38 +0000, Tim Lamb
<t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Isn't there also an issue with low sulphur diesel not lubricating the
>pump properly?

That was (supposedly) addressed by the inclusion of >5% bio-diesel.

[JimK]

/Like I said, it has never had any Petrol in the tank. So this is not the
cause. /q

Shit left in "cheap" (for someone) diesel?

'In the Republic, according to figures reported by a Dail (Irish parliament) committee that investigated the issue, the authorities lose about 150m euro each year.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-22736534

Jim K

[Adrian]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:12:54 +0000, Eednud wrote:

> Like I said, it has never had any Petrol in the tank. So this is not the
> cause.

You've not put the green nozzle in the filler. Beyond that? You're hoping.

[fred]

I twice filled a Mercedes Sprinter with petrol and both times drove it off the forecourt until it started to splutter. Both times We towed it back, emptied all of the petrol via syphon and finally at the pump, and filled to the top with pukka diesel. Twice I got away with it. I have a feeling that was an older type engine from the current breed and I might not get away so lightly if I did it on a current Mercedes van.

The 'dirty' petrol was used in two stroke garden machines. Smoked incredibly but apart from that no damage.

All those scare stories on TV news that even if you hadn't started your engine after filling up with petrol the damage was done and engine replacement was on the cards. Bollix

[Eednud]

Well the update is, the Lease company say its my problem as this is not
covered by them, as I either have used sub standard fuel or put petrol
in tank. VW want £4500 to fix it..



--
Eednud

[j...@mdfs.net]

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
> A small amount will do no harm (say 5%), but best to then keep the tank
> filled up a few times, each time there is room to put some in, so as to
> dilute in down as soon as possible. Hammer it - no reason to, just
> drive it normally.

Well, by hammer it, I meant what my MOT chap advised me a few years ago
with my old automatic petrol Rover: get on the motorway and keep a
constant 70 for at least half an hour to bed the engine in. (I can't
remember the details, just that the magic pixies under the bonnet
sounded noticably "nicer" after a round trip to Woolley Services and
back. I'd been doing loads of urban stop-start pickup-dropoff driving
for months.)

jgh

[JimK]

/
> Well the update is, the Lease company say its my problem as this is not covered by them, as I either have used sub standard fuel or put petrol in tank. VW want £4500 to fix it../q

Bummer.
2nd opinion?
Insurance ?- £26 legal expenses phone call?

Anyone else suffering with this locally? Nice little earner all round......

Jim K

[Dave Liquorice]

On Fri, 12 Dec 2014 16:56:35 +0000, Eednud wrote:

> Well the update is, the Lease company say its my problem as this is not
> covered by them, as I either have used sub standard fuel or put petrol

> in tank. VW want £4500 to fix it..

Is this a fixed term lease or a rolling one? What are the penalty
terms of terminating the lease early? Terminate lease, their
problem...

What was mentioned earlier about why the garage are spotting "glitter
in the tank". Get the garage to demonstrate this to you and explain
why they are looking in the first place (spotting bits in the filter
is plausable). Get the service manager involved not a desk clerk or
the fitter.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Tim+]

Not surprised. I did say that warranties don't cover damage due to fuel
contamination. Time to talk to your insurance company. They're sometimes
sympathetic. Certainly my friend had his fuel system replaced under
insurance after accidental misfuelling.

Tim

[Bob Eager]

I did it twice on the same car (my first diesel).

First time, I topped up the half full diesel tank with petrol and drove
home (about 2 miles or so). I went indoors, took the sales slip out of my
pocket and realised what I'd done. I got the RAC to take it to my local
garage, who drained it, flushed it and changed the fuel filter.

I then bought a Fuel Angel to stop me doing it again.

A few months later I did it again. I thought the pump was being awkward
because it filled slowly, but I managed to defeat the Fuel Angel and fill
the nearly empty tank with petrol. The car spluttered to a halt after
about a mile. I called out the RAC and they drained it by the roadside
(their 'misfuelling unit'). Drove to my garage (another mile) and had the
filter changed.

I decided to change the car about 3 months later, before anything broke.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £30a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

[Rod Speed]

"Eednud" <us...@example.net> wrote in message
news:m6f6ne$p2l$1...@dont-email.me...

Tell the leasing company to prove it and tell them that you
will take it to the small claims court. That will shut them up.

[Tim+]

Wise move. It can take months/years for the full extent of the damage to
become apparent. Intrigued to know how you managed to defeat the Fuel
Angel. Did you let the makers know?

Tim

Time

[Eednud]

I travel all over the country,although I only use Shell Garages, so
wouldn't be able to narrow it down to any garage, not sure how long ago,
if it even was dodgy fuel from a forecourt, and then proving it, is
another matter.

--
Eednud

[Eednud]

Its fixed term, Have 12 months left of a 3 year lease, am looking at
that now.

There are a few options to get out of lease early without penalty. I am
looking at them.

Service Manager just handed me a VAG circular that states every time
there is Glittering in tank, it is either Wrong fuel or sub Standard
Fuel, and is not covered by warranty. He sent this to Lease company also.

They would have to sue me to get the money out of me, and I think it
would be hard for them to prove in a court that I am at fault. Think I
will get my tools out of van on Monday and leave it there.

--
Eednud

[Eednud]

Yep, that is my plan.

Quite like the look of the new Transit anyway. Last VW I will get.

--
Eednud

[Rod Speed]

"Eednud" <us...@example.net> wrote in message

news:m6i342$j2i$2...@dont-email.me...

Yeah, I've heard that from quite a few people, the build quality is
way down on what it used to be apparently but most of those have
been in north america, haven't heard that much about stuff built in
germany.

My previous was a Golf that lasted more than 35 years with very
few problems and I had to stop using it because of my stupidity.
I knew the windscreen did leak a bit in the very heaviest rain after
a windscreen replacement because you could get a wet floor.
I stupidly did nothing about it until it rusted thru the floor and
I couldn’t register it anymore and couldn’t be arsed cutting out
the hole in the floor with a car that old. Had a beetle before that
but swapped it for the Golf because it only had one opening
window on each side and the fucking great Alsatian used to
slobber down the back of my neck with his head out the window
in summer. With the Golf he got his own window to slobber out of.

[Bob Eager]

No, I was too ashamed! :)

I just filled it rather slowly. Perhaps the nozzle was distorted or
something!

[Adrian]

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 19:13:28 +0000, Eednud wrote:

>>> Well the update is, the Lease company say its my problem as this is
>>> not covered by them, as I either have used sub standard fuel or put
>>> petrol in tank. VW want £4500 to fix it..

>> Tell the leasing company to prove it

They'll just point to the dealer's report.

>> and tell them that you will take it to the small claims court.

I'm sure they'll be quite happy with that situation.

>> That will shut them up.

It will, but not in the way you suspect. Just look at the evidence
available. Main dealer workshop report versus "I definitely didn't,
honest."

> Yep, that is my plan.
>
> Quite like the look of the new Transit anyway. Last VW I will get.

You think Ford's response would be any different? Or Fiat's, or PSA's, or
Mercedes' or any manufacturer's?

[Adrian]

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 19:11:55 +0000, Eednud wrote:

> Service Manager just handed me a VAG circular that states every time
> there is Glittering in tank, it is either Wrong fuel or sub Standard
> Fuel, and is not covered by warranty. He sent this to Lease company
> also.

Add that to the evidence for their side, then, should it get to court.

> They would have to sue me to get the money out of me, and I think it
> would be hard for them to prove in a court that I am at fault.

No, it'd be very easy under the balance of probabilities, which is the
only standard that needs to be met for a civil case, rather than a
criminal one.

> Think I will get my tools out of van on Monday and leave it there.

You go for it.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <m6jl90$j8e$2...@speranza.aioe.org>, Adrian
<tooma...@gmail.com> writes

I believe there was an instance recently of blended forecourt fuel due
to tanker driver error.

We used to suffer from *plug sooting* on a TVO powered tractor. The
problem was caused by the residual diesel fuel from a previous delivery
in the tanker discharge pipe. For a small delivery: 2-300 gallons, this
was enough to cause problems.

For a mixed load, the product is changed over prior to completion to
allow for this.

--
Tim Lamb

[Rod Speed]

Adrian <tooma...@gmail.com> wrote

> Eednud wrote

>>>> Well the update is, the Lease company say its my problem
>>>> as this is not covered by them, as I either have used sub
>>>> standard fuel or put petrol in tank. VW want £4500 to fix it..

>>> Tell the leasing company to prove it

> They'll just point to the dealer's report.

That isn't anything even remotely like proof.

>>> and tell them that you will take it to the small claims court.

> I'm sure they'll be quite happy with that situation.

Bet they aren't.

>>> That will shut them up.

> It will, but not in the way you suspect.

Bullshit.

> Just look at the evidence available.

None of that is relevant to a court.

> Main dealer workshop report

Which just proclaims that is has to be bad fuel somehow.

> versus "I definitely didn't, honest."

When there isnt a shred of evidence of bad fuel, the lease company is
fucked.

>> Yep, that is my plan.

>> Quite like the look of the new Transit anyway. Last VW I will get.

> You think Ford's response would be any different?
> Or Fiat's, or PSA's, or Mercedes' or any manufacturer's?

It isn't the manufacturer that matters.

[Rod Speed]

Adrian <tooma...@gmail.com> wrote

> Eednud wrote

>> Service Manager just handed me a VAG circular that states every time
>> there is Glittering in tank, it is either Wrong fuel or sub Standard
>> Fuel,
>> and is not covered by warranty. He sent this to Lease company also.

> Add that to the evidence for their side, then, should it get to court.

That isnt evidence, its just their CLAIM.

>> They would have to sue me to get the money out of me, and I think
>> it would be hard for them to prove in a court that I am at fault.

> No,

Yep.

> it'd be very easy under the balance of probabilities,
> which is the only standard that needs to be met for
> a civil case, rather than a criminal one.

Its more complicated than that with the small claims system.

>> Think I will get my tools out of van on Monday and leave it there.

> You go for it.

And win, you watch.

[Eednud]

On 14/12/2014 09:27, Adrian wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 19:13:28 +0000, Eednud wrote:
>
>>>> Well the update is, the Lease company say its my problem as this is
>>>> not covered by them, as I either have used sub standard fuel or put
>>>> petrol in tank. VW want £4500 to fix it..
>
>>> Tell the leasing company to prove it
>
> They'll just point to the dealer's report.

The report is not on my Van, it is a general document that states, in
all cases investigated glittering in fuel tank was caused by Incorrect
or Bad fuel in the tank.

>
>>> and tell them that you will take it to the small claims court.
>
> I'm sure they'll be quite happy with that situation.
>
>>> That will shut them up.
>
> It will, but not in the way you suspect. Just look at the evidence
> available. Main dealer workshop report versus "I definitely didn't,
> honest."

They have not said what caused MY vans failure, just a general report
from VAG. If they knew what caused it, they would not say it was either
or one of the 2 possible causes.

>
>> Yep, that is my plan.
>>
>> Quite like the look of the new Transit anyway. Last VW I will get.
>
> You think Ford's response would be any different? Or Fiat's, or PSA's, or
> Mercedes' or any manufacturer's?
>

I don't really care about them..


--
Eednud

[Adrian]

On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 18:03:22 +0000, Eednud wrote:

>>>>> Well the update is, the Lease company say its my problem as this is
>>>>> not covered by them, as I either have used sub standard fuel or put
>>>>> petrol in tank. VW want £4500 to fix it..

>>>> Tell the leasing company to prove it

>> They'll just point to the dealer's report.

> The report is not on my Van

Then how do you know the fuel system needs replacement?

There will most certainly be a nice paper report produced on your van if
there's the slightest whiff of it going to court.

>>> Quite like the look of the new Transit anyway. Last VW I will get.

>> You think Ford's response would be any different? Or Fiat's, or PSA's,
>> or Mercedes' or any manufacturer's?

> I don't really care about them..

You will do if the same situation arises.

[Eednud]

On 14/12/2014 19:48, Adrian wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 18:03:22 +0000, Eednud wrote:
>
>>>>>> Well the update is, the Lease company say its my problem as this is
>>>>>> not covered by them, as I either have used sub standard fuel or put
>>>>>> petrol in tank. VW want £4500 to fix it..
>
>>>>> Tell the leasing company to prove it
>
>>> They'll just point to the dealer's report.
>
>> The report is not on my Van
>
> Then how do you know the fuel system needs replacement?

They report recommends that any vehicle with glittering in tank should
have entire fuel system replaced. The van was running fine before it
went into garage.

>
> There will most certainly be a nice paper report produced on your van if
> there's the slightest whiff of it going to court.
>
>>>> Quite like the look of the new Transit anyway. Last VW I will get.
>
>>> You think Ford's response would be any different? Or Fiat's, or PSA's,
>>> or Mercedes' or any manufacturer's?
>
>> I don't really care about them..
>
> You will do if the same situation arises.
>

--
Eednud

[Rod Speed]

Adrian <tooma...@gmail.com> wrote

> Eednud wrote

>>>>>> Well the update is, the Lease company say its my problem
>>>>>> as this is not covered by them, as I either have used sub
>>>>>> standard fuel or put petrol in tank. VW want £4500 to fix it..

>>>>> Tell the leasing company to prove it

>>> They'll just point to the dealer's report.

>> The report is not on my Van

> Then how do you know the fuel system needs replacement?

They claim to have found swarf or glitter in the fuel.

> There will most certainly be a nice paper report produced
> on your van if there's the slightest whiff of it going to court.

And all that is is the dealer's CLAIM about
why there is swarf or glitter in the fuel.

That's not EVIDENCE of how that happened.

>>>> Quite like the look of the new Transit anyway. Last VW I will get.

>>> You think Ford's response would be any different?
>>> Or Fiat's, or PSA's, or Mercedes' or any manufacturer's?

>> I don't really care about them..

> You will do if the same situation arises.

Nope, he'll just do what he is doing this time,
tell them that they have to prove it was his fault.

The dispute isnt with the manufacturer.

[polygonum]

On 14/12/2014 19:52, Eednud wrote:
> They report recommends that any vehicle with glittering in tank should
> have entire fuel system replaced. The van was running fine before it
> went into garage.

I guess it's a bit too late to scrape it out and put it on your
Christmas cards. :-)

--
Rod

[Adrian]

On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 19:52:15 +0000, Eednud wrote:

>>>>>>> Well the update is, the Lease company say its my problem as this
>>>>>>> is not covered by them, as I either have used sub standard fuel or
>>>>>>> put petrol in tank. VW want £4500 to fix it..

>>>>>> Tell the leasing company to prove it

>>>> They'll just point to the dealer's report.

>>> The report is not on my Van

>> Then how do you know the fuel system needs replacement?

> They report recommends that any vehicle with glittering in tank should
> have entire fuel system replaced.

And the garage have stated that your vehicle has glittering, right?

[Rod Speed]

Adrian <tooma...@gmail.com> wrote

Irrelevant to what CAUSED it and who gets to pay for that.

[Adam Aglionby]

On Saturday, December 13, 2014 7:11:55 PM UTC, Eednud wrote:
> On 12/12/2014 20:54, Dave Liquorice wrote:
> > On Fri, 12 Dec 2014 16:56:35 +0000, Eednud wrote:
> >
> >> Well the update is, the Lease company say its my problem as this is not
> >> covered by them, as I either have used sub standard fuel or put petrol
> >> in tank. VW want £4500 to fix it..
> >
> > Is this a fixed term lease or a rolling one? What are the penalty
> > terms of terminating the lease early? Terminate lease, their
> > problem...
> >
> > What was mentioned earlier about why the garage are spotting "glitter
> > in the tank". Get the garage to demonstrate this to you and explain
> > why they are looking in the first place (spotting bits in the filter
> > is plausable). Get the service manager involved not a desk clerk or
> > the fitter.
> >
> Its fixed term, Have 12 months left of a 3 year lease, am looking at
> that now.
>
> There are a few options to get out of lease early without penalty. I am
> looking at them.
>
> Service Manager just handed me a VAG circular that states every time
> there is Glittering in tank, it is either Wrong fuel or sub Standard
> Fuel, and is not covered by warranty. He sent this to Lease company also.

Asked friend who works in independent garage, had fair share of fighting warranty claims with main dealers.

Premature diesel fuel pump wear is known problem within the trade, gilttering in the fuel in filter and tank usual tell tale sign. Not always attributable to fuel contamination in his experience.

Ford Focus diesel has more than its fair share of issues, dunno if vans share fuel system.

Analysis of fuel can tell if there has been contamination usually even to tiny percentages, advice was get a sample so that you have one available should want to contest analysis.

Trying to always blame customer for what could be production stock fault, not so good.

At 2 years and 60K could well be a warranty issue, tell him to put his circular up the glitter.

[Eednud]

Yep, Glittering in Tank.

--
Eednud

[Andy Burns]

Tim+ wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Eednud wrote:
>>
>>> Garage says there is Swarf or "glittering" in fuel tank
>>

>> I think it's easy for them to blame misfuelling [...] If you know that

>> hasn't happened, then I don't see how they can "prove" it did
>
> It's easy for owners to deny misfuelling too. I think garages are more
> inclined to believe the evidence than the story.

It appears from reports elsewhere, that the lease company eventually
authorised the garage to make repairs ...

[Eednud]

Yep, that is correct. Although speaking to the Lease company, They sent
an Engineer to the Garage to examine Vehicle, and apart from swarf in
Filter and tank, there was no damage to any other components. They told
VW to change filters and flush system. I have done 1200 miles so far and
no problems.

Last time I go to that garage. John Clark VW Specialist Cars Dundee

--
Eednud

[JimK]

/Yep, that is correct. Although speaking to the Lease company, They sent

an Engineer to the Garage to examine Vehicle, and apart from swarf in
Filter and tank, there was no damage to any other components. They told
VW to change filters and flush system. I have done 1200 miles so far and
no problems.

Last time I go to that garage. John Clark VW Specialist Cars Dundee /q

Reasonable result.

Last I read up thread, the lease mob were washing their hands of it all and expecting you to cough for the lot...

What did you say to the lease co?

Who paid for the eventual rioters and flush?

Who paid for the engineer"s visit?

This sounds like a nice little VAG earner....

Cheers

Jim K

[JimK]

/rioters/q

Grrr 'filters'.......

Jim K

[Eednud]

After consulting a solicitor, a letter was sent to lease company
refuting either miss-fueling or using substandard fuel.

They Lease company was given 7 days to Authorise repairs, or they would
be held in breach of contract, and damages sought for loss of earnings
whilst a suitable Vehicle was obtained. Also expenses to cover the cost
of the lease for the next 12 months until the lease expired. The Lease
would not be renewed at the end of the contract.

Apparently I could not cancel the Lease, but could claim back the costs,
if vehicle was not provided.

A Second Letter was sent from my Solicitor after 7 Days informing Lease
company, that I would be removing all my equipment from Vehicle and
would be taking action to recover all costs associated with Purchasing a
replacement Van.

The Garage phoned the Next Day to say Van would be ready for collection
within 48 hours, as Lease Company had authorised repairs.


--
Eednud

[Adrian]

On Sat, 31 Jan 2015 14:50:54 +0000, Eednud wrote:

> The Garage phoned the Next Day to say Van would be ready for collection
> within 48 hours, as Lease Company had authorised repairs.

A pragmatic solution, based on nothing more than it being far cheaper to
do that than fight, regardless of merits.

[Andy Burns]

Eednud wrote:

> speaking to the Lease company, They sent an Engineer to the Garage to
> examine Vehicle, and apart from swarf in Filter and tank, there was
> no damage to any other components. They told VW to change filters and
> flush system.

Ah, when you said elsewhere "I may even buy the van now when the Lease
is up, as it has had a whole new fuel system fitted" I assumed it had a
new pump and possibly injectors too ...

[Eednud]

Yep, I assumed that is what happened, as that is what VW said must be
done to keep the warranty and was the only fix, and the lease company
agreed with VW, until they had to pay for it. Then they quickly changed
their mind.

--
Eednud

[JimK]

/Yep, I assumed that is what happened, as that is what VW said must be

done to keep the warranty and was the only fix, and the lease company
agreed with VW, until they had to pay for it. Then they quickly changed

their mind. /

Conniving cunts!

Is the warranty still good then?

Jim K

[Adrian]

On Sat, 31 Jan 2015 23:27:33 -0800, JimK wrote:

> /Yep, I assumed that is what happened, as that is what VW said must be
> done to keep the warranty and was the only fix, and the lease company
> agreed with VW, until they had to pay for it. Then they quickly changed
> their mind. /

> Conniving cunts!

Not really. They're doing the bare minimum to get the van back on the
road and persuade the OP to stick with the contract he signed.

> Is the warranty still good then?

Doesn't sound like it.

[Eednud]

Its a Lease Van, Warranty means nothing to me. its going back in 11 months.

--
Eednud