vacuum cleaner motor reversal?
Phil L
decent one out of, but never completed, and another one which is too far
gone to do anything with, anyhoo, I have a lot of vacuum spares knocking
about.
I'm not too sparkling on electronics, but I remember years ago that our old
hoover used to go on 'blow' instead of suck at the flick of a switch,
someone told me that if you wire a motor in the opposite way, IE connect
live to neutral and netral to live, it spins in the opposite direction,
although I've not tried it.
My idea is to make a minature blowing machine of some kind, for various jobs
and just for pissing about with, so if I reverse the connections around in
the motor, will it do as I want and start blowing or will it just blow up? -
I'm not too bothered if it does the latter as I've got quite a few, also, do
I need to make this connection at the motor end or can I just reverse the
wires in the plug?
Or is it a non starter?
TIA
--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008
geoff
<neverc...@hotmail.com> writes
--
geoff
Dave Baker
It hasn't occurred to you that a motor that sucks also blows out of the
other end? Isn't it easier to just point the existing exit at whatever you
want to blow at?
--
Dave Baker
Hi I'm Larry. This is my brother Darryl, and this is my other brother
Darryl.
Tim Downie
"Phil L" <neverc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:C9Y1l.7443$Sp5....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>I have a few duff vacuum cleaners, two of them I've been trying to make one
>decent one out of, but never completed, and another one which is too far
>gone to do anything with, anyhoo, I have a lot of vacuum spares knocking
>about.
> I'm not too sparkling on electronics, but I remember years ago that our
> old hoover used to go on 'blow' instead of suck at the flick of a switch,
Never seen one like that (outside of cartoons anyway). On our old cylinder
machine you just connected the hose to the opposite end of the machine if
you wanted blow instead of suck.
> someone told me that if you wire a motor in the opposite way, IE connect
> live to neutral and netral to live, it spins in the opposite direction,
Given that we're on AC now I don't suppose this would make a great deal of
difference. If they ever did reverse at the flick of a switch, the switch
must have been doing more than swapping live & neutral.
Tim
Dave Plowman (News)
Most vacuum cleaners use series wound motors and to reverse those you need
to get inside it and reverse the connections to the field windings. Which
may not be possible with a sealed design. Other possibility is to reverse
the fan on its spindle.
Swapping the plug connections won't do anything - the mains does just this
100 times a second...
--
*Two many clicks spoil the browse *
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Dave Liquorice
> If they ever did reverse at the flick of a switch, the switch must have
> been doing more than swapping live & neutral.
What does make a universal or induction motor always start and run the
same way?
--
Cheers
Dave.
Kevin
universal's are basically a dc motor, direction is hard wired in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_motor#Universal_motors
induction motors have some sort of start circuit that determines direction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_motor
--
Kevin R
Reply address works
Andy Dingley
> someone told me that if you wire a motor in the opposite way, IE connect
> live to neutral and netral to live, it spins in the opposite direction,
Wrong, although if it has brushes with a commutator it's a
"universal" (AC/DC) motor and swapping some simple internal
connections will do this. Too difficult to explain in ASCII, but I'm
sure web searching will turn it up. Purely AC motors won't reverse
(for simple levels of fiddling).
Derek Geldard
wrote:
>I have a few duff vacuum cleaners, two of them I've been trying to make one
>decent one out of, but never completed, and another one which is too far
>gone to do anything with, anyhoo, I have a lot of vacuum spares knocking
>about.
>I'm not too sparkling on electronics, but I remember years ago that our old
>hoover used to go on 'blow' instead of suck at the flick of a switch,
>someone told me that if you wire a motor in the opposite way, IE connect
>live to neutral and netral to live,
It's AC and is reversing 50 times a second anyway.
> it spins in the opposite direction, although I've not tried it.
>My idea is to make a minature blowing machine of some kind, for various jobs
>and just for pissing about with, so if I reverse the connections around in
>the motor, will it do as I want and start blowing or will it just blow up? -
>I'm not too bothered if it does the latter as I've got quite a few, also, do
>I need to make this connection at the motor end or can I just reverse the
>wires in the plug?
>
>Or is it a non starter?
You need to reverse the connections to the field coil wrt the
armature. The motor might / might not run too well in reverse.
Derek
Derek Geldard
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <C9Y1l.7443$Sp5....@text.news.virginmedia.com>,
> Phil L <neverc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I have a few duff vacuum cleaners, two of them I've been trying to make
>> one decent one out of, but never completed, and another one which is
>> too far gone to do anything with, anyhoo, I have a lot of vacuum spares
>> knocking about. I'm not too sparkling on electronics, but I remember
>> years ago that our old hoover used to go on 'blow' instead of suck at
>> the flick of a switch, someone told me that if you wire a motor in the
>> opposite way, IE connect live to neutral and netral to live, it spins
>> in the opposite direction, although I've not tried it. My idea is to
>> make a minature blowing machine of some kind, for various jobs and just
>> for pissing about with, so if I reverse the connections around in the
>> motor, will it do as I want and start blowing or will it just blow up? -
>> I'm not too bothered if it does the latter as I've got quite a few,
>> also, do I need to make this connection at the motor end or can I just
>> reverse the wires in the plug?
>
>Most vacuum cleaners use series wound motors and to reverse those you need
>to get inside it and reverse the connections to the field windings. Which
>may not be possible with a sealed design. Other possibility is to reverse
>the fan on its spindle.
>
My experience with model aeroplane propellors tells me that won't
work. ;-) Reversing the motor will.
If the fan is actually a centrifugal compressor that won't work
either. Neither will reversing the motor.
Derek
Tim..
"Phil L" <neverc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:C9Y1l.7443$Sp5....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
Wouldnt work. Even if you did contrive to reverse the motor direction, all
vacuums use at least a 1 stage, often 2 or 3 stage centrifugal fan which
just doesnt work rotated the other way!
Tim.
Harry Bloomfield
> connect live to
> neutral and netral to live, it spins in the opposite direction, although I've
> not tried it.
Doing that will make nil difference to the direction. Only swapping one
of either the field coils or brush connections will change the motors
direction.
Even if you get the motor spinning backwards, many of the designs seem
to be a semi centrifugal design compressor, so it will probably not
make much difference to the air flow direction.
> My idea is to make a minature blowing machine of some kind, for various jobs
> and just for pissing about with, so if I reverse the connections around in
> the motor, will it do as I want and start blowing or will it just blow up? -
They do already blow, at the opposite end to the end they suck. Could
you perhaps modify the output end to accept a pipe?
> I'm not too bothered if it does the latter as I've got quite a few, also, do
> I need to make this connection at the motor end or can I just reverse the
> wires in the plug?
>
> Or is it a non starter?
>
> TIA
--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk
The Medway Handyman
> Phil L wrote on 17/12/2008 :
>> connect live to
>> neutral and netral to live, it spins in the opposite direction,
>> although I've not tried it.
>
> Doing that will make nil difference to the direction. Only swapping
> one of either the field coils or brush connections will change the
> motors direction.
>
> Even if you get the motor spinning backwards, many of the designs seem
> to be a semi centrifugal design compressor, so it will probably not
> make much difference to the air flow direction.
>
>> My idea is to make a minature blowing machine of some kind, for
>> various jobs and just for pissing about with, so if I reverse the
>> connections around in the motor, will it do as I want and start
>> blowing or will it just blow up? -
>
> They do already blow, at the opposite end to the end they suck. Could
> you perhaps modify the output end to accept a pipe?
Dry vac motors are cooled by the inward air blowing over the motor &
exhausting around the periphery of the motor. They do 'blow' but through a
series of small peripheral vents, so its difficult to channel the airflow -
and if its restricted too much it can cause overheat.
Wet/dry vacs discharge air around the periphery or via a tangential tube,
depending on the turbine. Tangential discharge motors are usually only
found on carpet cleaning machines, but they make excellent blowers.
The top picture here http://www.ametekfsm.com/ is a tangential discharge
motor, the second one down is a peripheral discharge.
--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
Graham.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
"Kevin" <donte...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:6P42l.3187$AL7....@newsfe14.ams2...
Strange that, I was only thinking about rotation direction of
synchronous motors half an hour before seeing this thread.
I know in its basic form a synchronous motor will run
in either direction. If anyone doubts this look at the turntable
in any microwave oven, it's 50-50 which way it goes.
Now when electric clocks and timers with syncronous motors
ha
if anyone
Tim Downie
> I know in its basic form a synchronous motor will run
> in either direction. If anyone doubts this look at the turntable
> in any microwave oven, it's 50-50 which way it goes.
Not in any microwave I've seen. Mine always goes anticlockwise (as do most
others I've seen).
Tim
Andy Dingley
> I know in its basic form a synchronous motor will run
> in either direction.
Depends on the type - "synchronous" is just a characteristic of how
fast the motor runs, there are several ways to build them. Most of
these are fixed to go in one direction (either magnetically by
slugging, mechanically with a press-button ('30s clocks),
electrically, or switchably) so as to make them reliably self-
starting. If it's the simplest sort and really doesn't care, then it
needs flick-starting.
Many non-time-critical "synchronous" motors are also not quite
synchronous, as they use a little inbuilt slip to give self-starting.
Bob Mannix
"Andy Dingley" <din...@codesmiths.com> wrote in message
news:8b9fab84-4d08-48a7...@y1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
It's the inbuilt slip, or phase lag, between an induction motor rotor and
the stator which gives rise to the restorative force that cases the motor to
turn - in effect the rotor is always playing "catch up" with the stator. By
definition it is then "synchronous" with the supply, speed control can be
achieved by increasing the number of poles/windings but there is an
underlying synchronism with the supply frequency in there somewhere. At rest
there is maximum phase lag equally in both directions and the forces on the
rotor are balanced - a flick will set it going either way as AD says. A
capacitor is the normal addition - this forces a small phase lag in one
direction when the motor is switched on - it starts to move and the normal
forces take over.
--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)
Dave Liquorice
> Now when electric clocks and timers with syncronous motors
> ha
Some had a mechanical means that wound up a kicked the motor in the
opposite direction if it started backwards.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Kevin
Dave
So does our Panasonic. First button push, it goes clock wise, start it
again and it goes anti clockwise. Never noticed if it changed direct on
one run though. I'm usually tending to other cook at that time.
Dave
Harry Bloomfield
> Some had a mechanical means that wound up a kicked the motor in the
> opposite direction if it started backwards.
A small hairspring within the drive linkage which allowed it to wind
itself up and some sort of pawl to stop it if it tried to go the wrong
way. If on switch on it tried to go the wrong way it would wind the
hairspring up to the point where it would have enough force to spin
itself in the correct direction.
Phil L
take the motors out and make something completely different, but knowing me,
they'll stay on the shelf in the shed gathering dust until the day I pop my
clogs, when one of my relatives will probably say, 'he was going to do
something with those but never got around to it'.
Frank Erskine
>On 18 Dec,
>All I've had have rotated each time in the opposite direction to the previous
>run.
I'd never noticed that until somebody (Huge?) mentioned it a while
back. I had noticed it vary in direction, but assumed it was more or
less random.
Not that I'm a great user of tinywobblers...
--
Frank Erskine
The Medway Handyman
Same as our Samsung.
Tim Downie
"The Medway Handyman" <davi...@nospamblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:z%A2l.8424$Sp5....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> Dave wrote:
>> Kevin wrote:
>>> Tim Downie wrote:
>>>> Graham. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I know in its basic form a synchronous motor will run
>>>>> in either direction. If anyone doubts this look at the turntable
>>>>> in any microwave oven, it's 50-50 which way it goes.
>>>>
>>>> Not in any microwave I've seen. Mine always goes anticlockwise (as
>>>> do most others I've seen).
>>>>
>>>> Tim
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Sharp microwaves go both ways oh er misses
>>
>> So does our Panasonic. First button push, it goes clock wise, start it
>> again and it goes anti clockwise. Never noticed if it changed direct
>> on one run though. I'm usually tending to other cook at that time.
Clearly I've lead a sheltered life. ;-) Of course we have been using the
same Toshiba microwave for over 20 years (that's been nicked once and
dropped on a building site) so I suppose I shouldn't extrapolate from my
experience.
Anyone using an older microwave?
Tim
Dave
Does that make us a sad pair for finding out? :-)
geoff
<timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> writes
only thing I have had to change was the capacitor in the HT (Which got
donated by someone here in UK.d-i-y about 7 years ago)
--
geoff
Bob Martin
Mine reverses direction every time it starts
Bob Martin
Only recently replaced a Sharp which was bought in 1982.
Steve Firth
> Our ~20 y/o Thorn (?) one expired a few weeks ago. :o(
>
> I had to fasten its replacement down because it skidded about on the worktop
> when you push the buttons on the front. It appears to be made of tin foil and
> fag packets.
I ended up buying a "Sanyo Professional Kitchen" model because it was
the only one I could find that wasn't made of TFFP.
Andy Dingley
> It's the inbuilt slip, or phase lag,
Slip isn't just phase lag, it's a slower speed too. Otherwise you've
built a perpetual motion machine!
Truly synchronous motors have slip when they start from zero speed,
but must have zero slip when running. This does make them more
complicated to manufacture, as they generally require some separate
starting device. OTOH, a simple fan motor can use a slug (a shorted
turn of thick copper around half the winding, inductively producing a
phase lag).
Practice for clocks was often to use manual start buttons. In the GPO
("Class B" clocks?) this "bug" was documented as a "feature". As the
clocks weren't self-starting after a power outage, they would be
obviously stopped rather than just set slow.
Bob Mannix
> On 18 Dec, 13:33, "Bob Mannix" <b1o...@mannix.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> It's the inbuilt slip, or phase lag,
>
> Slip isn't just phase lag, it's a slower speed too. Otherwise you've
> built a perpetual motion machine!
Er, no you wouldn't!
>
> Truly synchronous motors have slip when they start from zero speed,
> but must have zero slip when running.
They can never have zero phase lag (slip) when running or they wouldn't
turn. The lag causes the force (which constantly tries to get them back in
phase) that causes them to turn. If they were turning with zero phase lag
you might have a perpetual motion machine! This phase lag is naturally there
becasue of the load (at minimum just bearing friction) on the rotor. The
trouble is at rest, when there is no net phase lag in either direction and
therefore no force. Thus an artificial one has to be applied to ensure
starting [in the right direction].
Andy Dingley
> They can never have zero phase lag (slip) when running
They certainly lag by phase, but slip (outside of a 100% efficient
motor) is a reduction in _speed_, not just an equal speed lagging by
constant phase.
Geo
<timdow...@obvious.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Clearly I've lead a sheltered life. ;-) Of course we have been using the
>same Toshiba microwave for over 20 years
Also a 1987 Toshiba. The turntable starts in either direction but does not
auto-reverse at any time.
Geo
Dave Plowman (News)
Derek Geldard <im...@miniac.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >Most vacuum cleaners use series wound motors and to reverse those you
> >need to get inside it and reverse the connections to the field
> >windings. Which may not be possible with a sealed design. Other
> >possibility is to reverse the fan on its spindle.
> >
> My experience with model aeroplane propellors tells me that won't
> work. ;-) Reversing the motor will.
You're right, of course. I was thinking of fitting a computer fan the
other way round - but of course they're in one with the motor.
> If the fan is actually a centrifugal compressor that won't work
> either. Neither will reversing the motor.
Indeed.
--
*Why do they put Braille on the drive-through bank machines?
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Rod
> Phil L wrote:
>> I have a few duff vacuum cleaners, two of them I've been trying to
>> make one decent one out of, but never completed, and another one
>> which is too far gone to do anything with, anyhoo, I have a lot of
>> vacuum spares knocking about.
>> I'm not too sparkling on electronics, but I remember years ago that
>> our old hoover used to go on 'blow' instead of suck at the flick of a
>> switch, someone told me that if you wire a motor in the opposite way,
>> IE connect live to neutral and netral to live, it spins in the
>> opposite direction, although I've not tried it.
>> My idea is to make a minature blowing machine of some kind, for
>> various jobs and just for pissing about with, so if I reverse the
>> connections around in the motor, will it do as I want and start
>> blowing or will it just blow up? - I'm not too bothered if it does
>> the latter as I've got quite a few, also, do I need to make this
>> connection at the motor end or can I just reverse the wires in the
>> plug?
>> Or is it a non starter?
>>
>> TIA
>
> It hasn't occurred to you that a motor that sucks also blows out of the
> other end? Isn't it easier to just point the existing exit at whatever you
> want to blow at?
Many years ago, parents had an Electrolux cylinder cleaner. That had a
connector under the filter/outlet air vent - you could connect the hose
to that. IIRC they actually sold something like a spray gun that was
intended to work like that.
--
Rod
Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
<www.thyromind.info> <www.thyroiduk.org> <www.altsupportthyroid.org>
Tayyab
https://findbestvacuums.com/dyson-dc41-review/
Brian Gaff (Sofa)
filter off the back end and you had a screw thread you could attach things
too. Its not done these days, for whatever reason. Most are crammed full of
filters which get clogged up and need a good wash or replacing every so
often.
Brian
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Tayyab" <joosa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6073468e-da8f-4118...@googlegroups.com...
JohnP
its function. It may just reduce its efficiency.
Steve Walker
> That is correct, we had one branded Vactric like this. You just took the
> filter off the back end and you had a screw thread you could attach things
> too. Its not done these days, for whatever reason. Most are crammed full of
> filters which get clogged up and need a good wash or replacing every so
> often.
> Brian
me when I bought a house. It must have been over 30 years old when it
gave up (it had been running for years with two blades missing from one
of its impellers - one I removed to balance it up when it lost one).
That vac had the same hose fitting on each end, so switching it to blow
just meant pulling the hose from one end (pull back the release ring and
it just came out) and putting it in the other end, so it took just a
couple of seconds.
No filters to remove - it just had a cloth bag.
Blow was mainly used by us to try and shift something that was stuck in
the hose, but it was actually intended for air powered tools - such as
the spray gun that could be attached to the hose.
Fredxx
Andy Burns
> Blow was mainly used by us to try and shift something that was stuck in
> the hose, but it was actually intended for air powered tools - such as
> the spray gun that could be attached to the hose.
attachment with it that used a glass jar, but mainly the blow end was
used to eject sucked-up socks from the hose.
Unknown
axial fan, so air will still flow the same way. Besides, you cannot
reverse a 240v motor, by simply swapping the L an N over.
The Natural Philosopher
> Besides, you cannot reverse a 240v motor, by simply swapping the L an N
> over.
windings) and you only swap either the field or the brushes
--
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted
man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest
thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly
persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid
before him."
- Leo Tolstoy
Unknown
> windings) and you only swap either the field or the brushes
suggesting.
Steve Walker
direction. Centrifugals just lose efficiency.
> Besides, you cannot reverse a 240v motor, by simply swapping the L an N over.
assuming an old, brushed motor.
Unknown
> Centrifugals just lose efficiency.
Adrian Caspersz
>
> I'm impressed you replied to a 2008 post.
--
Adrian C
bert
<st...@walker-family.me.uk> writes
spray gun attachment.
--
bert
Steve Walker
Andy Burns
> Steve Walker wrote:
>
>> Blow was mainly used by us to try and shift something that was stuck
>> in the hose, but it was actually intended for air powered tools - such
>> as the spray gun that could be attached to the hose.
>
> We had one of those. Wish I could remember the make. We also used the
> spray gun attachment.
<https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-1960s-electrolux-vacuum-475122294>
Steve Walker
although ours was blue. The white ends are a little different, the inlet
end being black and a little more rounded. The outlet end also being
black. I can't see the outlet end, but ours had a cast metal section,
with knurled screw in the centre. Ours also did not have the handle on
top, instead having a luggage type one - a horizontal strap, with the
ends in metal covers - along the top of the casing. Underneath are a
pair of metal skids.
Adrian Caspersz
https://www.vacuumland.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?3774
Also had a blowing function, ye move the hose to another port on the
case. I remember air that came out of there was rather hot.
Independence Day 2018 Special Part Two Hoover Portable Cleaning Center
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfJd27603Vk
--
Adrian C
Tim Lamb
<use...@andyburns.uk> writes
in the other end to operate the paint sprayer.
My one attempt at spraying cellulose found a large quantity of hair etc.
from the filter bag embedded in the finish:-(
--
Tim Lamb
brian
paint.
We also had one in Physics classes at school to levitate ping-pong balls
to demonstrate Bernoulli's effect.
Brian
--
Brian Howie