garden gate construction
Fred
I would like to put a gate across the passage that leads to our
garden. I would like a solid "door style" gate, about 3'3" wide and 6'
tall.
I know you use a Z shape brace on the back to hold it all together but
do you just butt the planks together or is it better to use tongued
and grooved wood? Would you glue them or would nails/bolts be enough?
I know 18mm T&G is readily available and often used as floorboards; is
T&G available in thicker sizes?
What's the best way to mount it? Onto a stout fence post?
What is the best way to lock it shut? Would you use a padlocked bolt
or could you somehow incorporate a mortice lock?
BTW would you cramp the wood together whilst the glue sets and if so,
is it worth paying for Irwin cramps? They seem to cost twice as much
as the other makes. Are they worth the extra or are you just paying
for the name?
TIA
The Natural Philosopher
> Hi,
>
> I would like to put a gate across the passage that leads to our
> garden. I would like a solid "door style" gate, about 3'3" wide and 6'
> tall.
>
> I know you use a Z shape brace on the back to hold it all together but
> do you just butt the planks together or is it better to use tongued
> and grooved wood? Would you glue them or would nails/bolts be enough?
>
Glue is almost useless outdoors. The wood swells enough to split either
the joint, or the wood.
Galv screws or bolts are the way to go.
> I know 18mm T&G is readily available and often used as floorboards; is
> T&G available in thicker sizes?
>
get it made up. I use 19mm 'charcter' (=full of knots and shit) oak for
this sort of thing, to 'door kit' specification.
> What's the best way to mount it? Onto a stout fence post?
>
yes. agricultural suppliers will have this sort of think ready made.
> What is the best way to lock it shut? Would you use a padlocked bolt
> or could you somehow incorporate a mortice lock?
>
Padlock is better if you think someone really wants to get in. Mortice
will shatter the wood with a jemmy quite easily.
> BTW would you cramp the wood together whilst the glue sets and if so,
> is it worth paying for Irwin cramps? They seem to cost twice as much
> as the other makes. Are they worth the extra or are you just paying
> for the name?
>
You dont glue and its pointless crampimg.
Simply make up (preferably) a morticed Z-frame doweled together if
possible rather than screwed..lasts a bit longer - and screw from the
back into the actual boards. I tend to use oak plugs in sunken screw
holes to get rid of teh heads.
If you don't want gaps appearing use T & G, otherwise just butt.
Trim final door to size after construction, and for outdoors completely
coat it in something weatherproof several times over.
Most cheap softwopd outdoor gates would be something like 15mm pine on a
30mm frame.
I use 19mm oak on 30mm oak frame. Looks much better.
google is your friend to find hinges and latcches etc.
> TIA
NT
> Hi,
>
> I would like to put a gate across the passage that leads to our
> garden. I would like a solid "door style" gate, about 3'3" wide and 6'
> tall.
>
> I know you use a Z shape brace on the back to hold it all together but
> do you just butt the planks together or is it better to use tongued
> and grooved wood?
T&G prevents gaps opening up between the planks, and it restrains them
if one warps. It also encourages rot.
> Would you glue them or would nails/bolts be enough?
as TNP said forget glue. Bolts are more secure than screws are more
secure than nails.
> I know 18mm T&G is readily available and often used as floorboards; is
> T&G available in thicker sizes?
>
> What's the best way to mount it? Onto a stout fence post?
that works.
> What is the best way to lock it shut? Would you use a padlocked bolt
> or could you somehow incorporate a mortice lock?
2 locking points if youre serious about it staying locked. Pointy
bits above to discourage climbing. I'd hate to be relying on a garden
gate for security though.
NT
sm_jamieson
Make sure you preserve / creosote the T&G before putting it together.
I used 2x3 (inch) for my gate, and it had the z braces plus timbers
around the edge.
Simon.
Malcolm
I have made several, the first for myself about 12 years ago - the side
passage is only 2feet 6 wide so nothing commetcially available. Made it
8ft high - it firs in with the lie of the land. Made to a ledged and
braceg design in pine from a local timber merchant using 125 x 25 timber
for the ledges/braces (3 ledges). Cladding was t&g Vjointed 100 x 18.
Clading laid out, braces fitted & screwed from front in an attractive
pattern, trimmed to size. I used galvanised fittings, latch on middle
ledge & bolts on top & bottom. To allow neighbours in to water plants I
routed out a piece of the ledging to take a mortice lock and coach
bolted it to the gate just under the centre stile. The whole assembly
was soaked in (real) creosote and shows no sign of deteriorating 12
years on, even the galvanised fittins show little sign of deterioration.
Malcolm
Dave Liquorice
> I know you use a Z shape brace on the back to hold it all together but
> do you just butt the planks together or is it better to use tongued
> and grooved wood?
Without T&G gaps will open between the boards in summer when it dries
out.
> Would you glue them or would nails/bolts be enough?
Hot dip galvanised nails or brass/stainless screws. No need to glue,
indeed as others have pointed out the movement will nagger any glued
joint.
> I know 18mm T&G is readily available and often used as floorboards; is
> T&G available in thicker sizes?
Thicker! Is this just a deterent against access or for real security?
I'd use 4 x 1 PAR for the ledges and braces faces with 10mm T&G
cladding for just a gate to block the way.
> What's the best way to mount it? Onto a stout fence post?
At least a 3" square preferably 4" with the best part of 2' in the
ground. You say "across the passage" that implies to me a wall on at
least one side in which case 2" sq fixed to the wall and the gate
fixed to that will do.
> What is the best way to lock it shut? Would you use a padlocked bolt
> or could you somehow incorporate a mortice lock?
Padlocked bolt with bolts top and bottom.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Andy Dingley
> I would like to put a gate across the passage that leads to our
> garden. I would like a solid "door style" gate, about 3'3" wide and 6'
> tall.
>
> I know you use a Z shape brace on the back to hold it all together but
> do you just butt the planks together or is it better to use tongued
> and grooved wood? Would you glue them or would nails/bolts be enough?
It's outdoors, so it will move with seasonal moisture changes. T&G is
too fine and will break, a half-lapped edge is better. Your boards
should only be fastened in the centre of the board, so that their
edges can move in and out freely. The half-lap stops a gap appearing.
You can buy timber machined like this, saw it on your table saw
(best), hand plane it with a #78 or rebate with a router.
The Z frame and hinges are where the strength is. As a minimum, use
half laps with bolts through them. Diagonal brace "under" the rails
looks best.
For strength, nails, bolts and screws. If you use nails, use long ones
and clench them over on the back (Crop diagonally to 1 1/2" long, bend
the last 1/4"-1/2" to make a spike, then bend the stub sideways across
the grain and hammer it into the timber. Looks neat when done
carefully.
> I know 18mm T&G is readily available and often used as floorboards; is
> T&G available in thicker sizes?
Buy better timber, with better rot resistance. Larch or Douglas fir.
> What's the best way to mount it? Onto a stout fence post?
Whatever is handy. Toolstation / Screwfix do big galv hinge sets.
> What is the best way to lock it shut? Would you use a padlocked bolt
> or could you somehow incorporate a mortice lock?
Padlocked bolt. Too skinny for a mortice lock, rimlocks are generally
flimsy. If you have a substantial and weatherproof rimlock (some Yale
pin tumbler deadlocks) then use that.
> BTW would you cramp the wood together whilst the glue sets
I wouldn't bother gluing it, as glue won't last anyway. You need a
flat assembly surface (tarmac is fine), three or four cheap
lightweight aluminium long clamps, and an anvil-shaped object for
clenching the nails against. I suggest assembling the Z frame,
attaching two light battens to hold this in place, then nailing the
skin to the frame. Finally remove the battens.
> is it worth paying for Irwin cramps?
No, buy old S/H Record or Paramo.
Fred
<din...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
>Buy better timber, with better rot resistance. Larch or Douglas fir.
Thanks everyone for your replies.
I was interested to read that larch and Douglas fir are more resistant
to rot. Where can I learn more about what wood has what qualities?
>> What is the best way to lock it shut? Would you use a padlocked bolt
>> or could you somehow incorporate a mortice lock?
>
>Padlocked bolt. Too skinny for a mortice lock, rimlocks are generally
>flimsy. If you have a substantial and weatherproof rimlock (some Yale
>pin tumbler deadlocks) then use that.
Rim lock is what I meant. I knew mortice lock was the wrong word
because I knew the mortice was the slot it fitted into but I just
didn't know what the right word was. Thanks. A couple of posters have
suggested padlocks being best, so I will go down that route. The only
disadvantage of a padlock is that it only really allows unlocking from
one side, unless you cut a hole in the gate.
Fred
<allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:
>Is this just a deterent against access or for real security?
A deterrent against opportunistic theft. I don't have anything
valuable behind it but a burglar wouldn't know that, so I'd like to
keep them out in the first place.
>At least a 3" square preferably 4" with the best part of 2' in the
>ground. You say "across the passage" that implies to me a wall on at
>least one side in which case 2" sq fixed to the wall and the gate
>fixed to that will do.
There are walls on both sides but only one is mine so I don't want to
drill into my neighbour's wall. I was thinking I could attach a post
to my wall or fasten to my wall direct and bury a fence post on my
neighbour's side.
Thanks.
zaax
> Hi,
>
> I would like to put a gate across the passage that leads to our
> garden. I would like a solid "door style" gate, about 3'3" wide and 6'
> tall.
>
> I know you use a Z shape brace on the back to hold it all together but
> do you just butt the planks together or is it better to use tongued
> and grooved wood? Would you glue them or would nails/bolts be enough?
Nails for the weather proof T&G board. Screws and glue for the brace.
>
> I know 18mm T&G is readily available and often used as floorboards; is
> T&G available in thicker sizes?
Why do you need more? Also use hard wood (Oak, Ash etc) if you can
afford it as it lasts alot longer
>
> What's the best way to mount it? Onto a stout fence post?
Wood rots in 20 years or less so I used 3"X3" attached to short
concrete posts, 3' in the ground.
>
> What is the best way to lock it shut? Would you use a padlocked bolt
> or could you somehow incorporate a mortice lock?
I used a digi-code lock, with a draw bolt on the inside. But anything
can be used, as long as its weather proof.
>
> BTW would you cramp the wood together whilst the glue sets and if so,
The screws will hold it.
> is it worth paying for Irwin cramps? They seem to cost twice as much
> as the other makes. Are they worth the extra or are you just paying
> for the name?
>
> TIA
You will need to allow for expansion of the boards during wet weather -
use 1/8" packers.
Coach bolt on each of the three hinges (for effect) and a couple on the
latch block to stop to stop theves unscrewing it.
--
---
zaax
Frustration casues accidents: allow faster traffic to overtake.
Fred
<din...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
>a half-lapped edge is better. Your boards
>should only be fastened in the centre of the board, so that their
>edges can move in and out freely. The half-lap stops a gap appearing.
>You can buy timber machined like this, saw it on your table saw
>(best), hand plane it with a #78 or rebate with a router.
Thanks. I'm wondering why using the table saw is best rather than a
router? Wouldn't you have to make two passes with a table saw but only
one with a router?
Is there a reason to use half lap joints rather than saw the edges at
45 degrees? Wouldn't that allow for expansion without creating gaps to
see through?
TIA
The Natural Philosopher
> On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 09:23:22 -0700 (PDT), Andy Dingley
> <din...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
>
>> a half-lapped edge is better. Your boards
>> should only be fastened in the centre of the board, so that their
>> edges can move in and out freely. The half-lap stops a gap appearing.
>> You can buy timber machined like this, saw it on your table saw
>> (best), hand plane it with a #78 or rebate with a router.
>
> Thanks. I'm wondering why using the table saw is best rather than a
> router? Wouldn't you have to make two passes with a table saw but only
> one with a router?
>
in the average workshop, a saw is usually there, with the right cutter
already in it :-)
a router usually is not, at least in table format, and needs the right
cutter fitting.
People with table saws tend to find very creative ways to do a lot with
them!
> Is there a reason to use half lap joints rather than saw the edges at
> 45 degrees? Wouldn't that allow for expansion without creating gaps to
> see through?
>
It's possible, but leads to weak splintery edges,. It is in fact what
weatherboard or feather edge or whatever the lapped style boards,
essentially are..
Plenty of ways of cat skinning, as you are appreciating.
T & G is just widely available, so why not use it?
> TIA
Andy Dingley
> I was interested to read that larch and Douglas fir are more resistant
> to rot. Where can I learn more about what wood has what qualities?
Unfortunately the two best resources for this are American, so cover
US species more than Europe's
They are Bruce Hoadley's "Understanding Wood"
<http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1561583588/codesmiths>
and also the US Forest Products Wood Handbook
<http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publications/several_pubs.php?
grouping_id=100&header_id=p>
The first of these is printed on convenient paper, but the second is a
free download. Take your pick. You can buy the Wood Handbook printed
too.
Hoadley is known for two books, both excellent. "Understanding Wood"
is more about abstract behaviour, so is useful across any wood
species. It's an essential read for anyone who wants to really
understand wood shrinkage with moisture change. His other book on
identifying timber species is good too, but that does get a little US-
specific.
There are many other similar books, but these two are the good ones.
Try eBay for S/H timber identification guides from UK publishers.
I didn't learn to love larch until I started working with it on big
timber framing jobs, because it was cheaper than oak. Up until then I
thought it was crappy, rotty soft whitewood, same as hemlock. As it's
so resionous, it's actually pretty good for rot resistance. Can be
twisty though, so pick your timber carefully. Doug fir is what you'll
be offered in most timber yards if you ask "Have you go anything a bit
better?". It's closer-ringed, finer grained, bit stronger, a lot more
predictable than the other common softwoods.
You might even use Parana pine (rainforest, bit iffy) or pitch pine
(probably old recycled these days). If you have somewhere local that
does recycled Victorian warehouse timbers, pitch pine is the best
thing you could ever make a (softwood) door out of - nice to work too.
> Thanks. I'm wondering why using the table saw is best rather than a
> router? Wouldn't you have to make two passes with a table saw but only
> one with a router?
In general, people with well-equipped workshops make everything on the
cabinet saw unless they can't, and only then do they start looking at
their other tools. Number of passes never matters for one-offs, it's
ease of setup that matters.
You could make this either way. I'd throw the bits carelessly into my
crosscut box on the big saw (I also have a 45° cross-cut box, which
comes in handy from time to time) and would have them already made
without barely thinking about it.
For timber framing work, I can't move the frame pieces as they're too
big, so I'd do it with a handheld circular. A Stanley triangular
square with an adjustable angle guide makes a good, quick saw guide
for this work too.
If I had a router, I'd also be able to work pieces I couldn't easily
lift or slide across a table. However routing is always slower than
sawing, even when you're multi-passing over the saw. You could
certainly do it though, and if you're on-site with just a router,
that's how you'd do it. One trick is to leave the ends long and not
machined, so that you can support the router spanning the cut. Then
when you've bottomed it all out nicely, saw to length. If I was
routing it, I'd probably bother to _not_ take the cut in the
horizontal rails all the way across (easy with a router, impossible on
the saw), making this a blind half-lap. The end grain of the diagonal
wouldn't show, so it looks just that little bit neater.
I could do them with a chop saw too, but don't much like the things.
> Is there a reason to use half lap joints rather than saw the edges at 45 degrees?
Yes, because that makes a joint. Butting them at 45° is just a butt,
not a joint. Nor mechanical strength, no glue strength (endgrain
doesn't glue worth a damn), not even much good for putting mechanical
screw fasteners across. If you're only going to butt them, you might
as well not bother putting the diagonal on at all, it won't do much.
> Wouldn't that allow for expansion without creating gaps to see through?
Wood expands and shrinks tangentially (widthwise) and radially. Wet to
dry (any species) is 10% tangentially, 5% radially, tangential/radial
ratio is constant at 2:1 and not so you'd ever notice lengthwise. Note
that "wet" and "dry" vary between species: some wood is much wetter or
drier fresh off the tree, and their movement with moisture content
varies a bit across the species, but this total movement max to min is
pretty constant.
So to start worrying about moisture movement, look for the widest
dimension across tangential timber. That's where you'll notice it
first. In your door, it's widthwise across the vertical boards. Your
"Z frame" in contrast is made of beams joined at their ends (this is
characteristic of all frames, for just this reason) and so only has to
worry about the negligible lengthways movement. So make the frame up
pretty rigid, then hang the boards off it to fill the hole, worrying
about their shrinkage.
Board movement (as external doors suffer weather) is 10%, which means
half an inch for a typical board. That's probably more than you
expected. So wide half-lapped edges can cope with this, tongue &
groove or diagonal laps can't. If you don't want to deal with this on
that basis, make a gate with deliberate gaps between the slats. It'll
still look good, you'll just be able to see through it, and it won't
need to worry about moisture in the design.
The Natural Philosopher
<snip>
>
> Wood expands and shrinks tangentially (widthwise) and radially. Wet to
> dry (any species) is 10% tangentially, 5% radially, tangential/radial
> ratio is constant at 2:1 and not so you'd ever notice lengthwise.
Oh. it does notice, green to dry. About 1%. on 2 meter high post, its
20mm. THAT notices.
> Note
> that "wet" and "dry" vary between species: some wood is much wetter or
> drier fresh off the tree, and their movement with moisture content
> varies a bit across the species, but this total movement max to min is
> pretty constant.
>
>
> Board movement (as external doors suffer weather) is 10%, which means
> half an inch for a typical board.
I'd say that's a BIT higher than I have seen.
5%..
>That's probably more than you
> expected. So wide half-lapped edges can cope with this, tongue &
> groove or diagonal laps can't.
I've seen many a T & G door be OK in terms of gapping.Yes they open up,
but not enough to gap.
Possibly because they are assembled dry, and tend to swell into
compression. If the boards are well secured to the frame, that won't
push them apart.
If you don't want to deal with this on
> that basis, make a gate with deliberate gaps between the slats. It'll
> still look good, you'll just be able to see through it, and it won't
> need to worry about moisture in the design.
The key is to bolt stuff down HARD. two screws at each edge of the
board, to prevent edges cupping outwards. And try and pick reasonable
quarterish grain stock
so it wont cup outwards.
Wood will take a lot of compression,,but will split in tension across
the grain.
Andy Dingley
wrote:
> Oh. it does notice, green to dry. About 1%. on 2 meter high post, its
> 20mm. THAT notices.
Another aspect of shrinkage is that over a number of cycles, the wood
stops moving so much and gradually settles down to a figure closer to
the dry dimension. For a typical board, this can be 10-20 cycles
widthwise (depends a lot on species), but for length it's almost
instantaneous and most European species (although not tropicals) will
get to his point within 1 or 2 cycles.
> > Note
> > that "wet" and "dry" vary between species: some wood is much wetter or
> > drier fresh off the tree, and their movement with moisture content
> > varies a bit across the species, but this total movement max to min is
> > pretty constant.
>
> > Board movement (as external doors suffer weather) is 10%, which means
> > half an inch for a typical board.
>
> I'd say that's a BIT higher than I have seen.
>
> 5%..
10% is (obviously) just a round number. It's usually a bit more than
this, in fact - maybe 12%. However it's also the worst-case value for
fully(sic)-wet to fully-dry and most importantly, that's the value
after reaching equilibrium with the outside. So the lighthouse
keeper's netty might only go from soaking to half-dry over a year, a
granary in Norfolk might go from bone-dry to half-wet. There's also
the question of paint or varnish. Now this does nothing to shift the
equilibrium final value, but it does delay the reaching of this value
such that you might never reach it before the weather changes. It can
take months to change the moisture content of thick, dry (i.e.
atmospheric humidity, but no water splash) timber that has been in
service for a couple of years.
So 5% is indeed what you're likely to see. But for a rule of thumb
when designing, use 10%.
> I've seen many a T & G door be OK in terms of gapping.Yes they open up,
> but not enough to gap.
I've seen many that were OK too. Also plenty that gapped. On the
whole, I'll build to avoid this happening.
The usual thing with T&G though is that it's cupping that gets them,
not simple linear expansion. As boards are flat-sawn from small
diameter trees, the rings within a board are tightly curved, relative
to the size of the board. So a board that moves doesn't just shrink,
it cups too. (if you quarter-saw, of if you use the outsides of big
trees, you can avoid or reduce this.
Usually you lay boards so that heart is in (or out), but it's
consistent. When these cup, they bend the tongue and groove relative
to each other and snap the tongues off by bending, If you lay the
board alternately, the T&G wil stay perfectly parallel, but it'll be
shifted sideways. The tongues still come off, this time by shear. To
be fair, it's harder to break them off by bending than by shearing,
but still neither is good.
Don't use (typically sized) T&G on outdoor work, use laps instead.
> Possibly because they are assembled dry, and tend to swell into
> compression.
Trouble with that is that wood isn't very elastic - it yields instead.
> If the boards are well secured to the frame, that won't push them apart.
That's the amateurs usual response - shame it doesn't work.
The problem is yield. If you assemble wet, they shrink apart and gap.
if you assemble dry, they swell when wet, crush and become narrower,
shrink when dry again and they still gap.
The fix is to overlap, not to butt them side by side and hope that
Ever Bigger Screws will fix it.
For the big stuff I don't use nails or screws at all, I use green
timber framing.
> The key is to bolt stuff down HARD. two screws at each edge of the
> board, to prevent edges cupping outwards.
Not a fecking hope. Besides which, the sideways movement will do for
you and your fasteners will be loose in a year.
This is why I make braced doors by using clenched nails, not screws,
not bolts (well, hinges to frame I do) and certainly not glue. A nail
is a somewhat flexible joint, especially a clenched one, as that can
permit a bit of movement but still not work falling-out loose.
> And try and pick reasonable quarterish grain stock
I like a nice bit of unicorn horn trim on the doorknob too.
Quarter-sawn stock is _not_ an option here. If it was, we'd be
building a frame and panel door with joinery, not a ledged & braced
carpenter's door.