building regulations: bedroom windows
Gareth
Not strictly DIY but I'm sure people here will know the answer.
Do bedroom windows have to have an opening at least 600mm wide?
The reason I ask is that I had a couple of people round to give me
quotes for some replacement windows. The first bloke, an experienced
chap from a local firm, said I couldn't do what I wanted because the
regs state that bedroom windows need to have an opening of at least
600mm for an escape route. The second chap, a young bloke with shiny
suit from a large national firm, didn't seem to know anything about this
rule.
Assuming the 1st bloke is correct, other than the increased risk of
burning to death, what would be the downside if ignoring the regs?
Thanks for any information.
Gareth
Tim Watts
It's to do with building regs, Part B:
Have a look - bedrooms don't always need egress windows (that's the
technical name) but the document is fairly understandable.
I'm not surprised the "nation firm" guy didn't know...
d...@gglz.com
It depends on whether in your particular house, a means-of-escape
window is required in that particular room.
Generally second floor bedrooms do, or first floor 4.5m above ground
level, or if they open into another room (such as in an open plan
house) rather directly to a hallway leading to an exit door.
With unusual house layouts, the rules on this get complicated. You
would need to plough through the approved docs to be certain.
If a means of escape window is required - from memory it must have an
opening area at least 450mm high AND wide AND have an area greater
than 0.3 sq m, and be less than 1200mm above floor level.
The Natural Philosopher
> Not strictly DIY but I'm sure people here will know the answer.
>
> Do bedroom windows have to have an opening at least 600mm wide?
>
At least one does, yes, unless there is some other way to escape.
> The reason I ask is that I had a couple of people round to give me
> quotes for some replacement windows. The first bloke, an experienced
> chap from a local firm, said I couldn't do what I wanted because the
> regs state that bedroom windows need to have an opening of at least
> 600mm for an escape route. The second chap, a young bloke with shiny
> suit from a large national firm, didn't seem to know anything about this
> rule.
>
That doesnt surprise me in the slightest.
> Assuming the 1st bloke is correct, other than the increased risk of
> burning to death, what would be the downside if ignoring the regs?
>
The BCO can force you to have a suitable window fitted. At your
considerable expense. If picked up in a survey, it will also result in a
downward negotiation on price when selling.
I would p[point out that the fire regulations are drawn up not by
government ministers, but by professional architects and fire officers
who understand what its like to see someone suffocate to death in a
house whilst they are in a ladder outside, with no hope of getting in to
rescue them.
Jim K
I don;t believe anyone can *make* you widen windows just to be 600mm
New build maybe - refurb nah not practical key phrases I've picked
"you have to work with what you got" "make it no worse than it
currently is"
I also don;t believe anyone will be that bothered even if the strict
letter of the Regs is deemed to have been broken.
Firemen on ladders have hammers don;t they?
Jim K
GAP
> On 28/09/10 21:05, Gareth wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Not strictly DIY but I'm sure people here will know the answer.
>
> > Do bedroom windows have to have an opening at least 600mm wide?
>
> > The reason I ask is that I had a couple of people round to give me
> > quotes for some replacement windows. The first bloke, an experienced
> > chap from a local firm, said I couldn't do what I wanted because the
> > regs state that bedroom windows need to have an opening of at least
> > 600mm for an escape route. The second chap, a young bloke with shiny
> > suit from a large national firm, didn't seem to know anything about this
> > rule.
>
> > Assuming the 1st bloke is correct, other than the increased risk of
> > burning to death, what would be the downside if ignoring the regs?
>
> > Thanks for any information.
>
> > Gareth
>
> It's to do with building regs, Part B:
>
>
> Have a look - bedrooms don't always need egress windows (that's the
> technical name) but the document is fairly understandable.
>
> I'm not surprised the "nation firm" guy didn't know...
FWIW, the regulations are different in Scotland and more often require
this level of escape size. Velux make a special window that opens in
two parts to meet this rule.
Graham
Jim K
tighter? ;>)
Jim K
Frank Erskine
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Gareth wrote:
>> Not strictly DIY but I'm sure people here will know the answer.
>>
>> Do bedroom windows have to have an opening at least 600mm wide?
>>
>
>At least one does, yes, unless there is some other way to escape.
Such as a door? :-)
--
Frank Erskine
harry
Regardless of regulations you need to think about your family's
safety.
If the hallway/landing was on fire, how would you get out of that room
is what you want to ask yourself? With standard window hinges, the
opening is made smaller as the window opens. You can get special, more
expensive, hinges where this problem is overcome. But if the opening
is too small, you/your familly could die just inches from safety.
harry
Not funny.
Jim K
fit decent smoke detectors (mains w battery back up) and aspire to get
out/put it out before it's a life threatener?
Jim K
The Natural Philosopher
The overall building is looked at in the context of fires blocking
stairwells.
Or corridors.
There must be another way out.
dennis@home
"Jim K" <jk98...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c3c2733d-c50d-4c3a...@d17g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
While an active safety system might be useful they aren't as reliable as a
passive system.
Fit opening windows that you can get out off easily not some fashionable
cr@p where you need to keep an axe under the bed for emergencies like I used
to before we had proper windows fitted.
>
> Jim K
Hugo Nebula
Gareth <m...@privacy.net>, randomly hit the keyboard and wrote:
>Do bedroom windows have to have an opening at least 600mm wide?
Yes or no.
>The reason I ask is that I had a couple of people round to give me
>quotes for some replacement windows. The first bloke, an experienced
>chap from a local firm, said I couldn't do what I wanted because the
>regs state that bedroom windows need to have an opening of at least
>600mm for an escape route. The second chap, a young bloke with shiny
>suit from a large national firm, didn't seem to know anything about this
>rule.
>
>Assuming the 1st bloke is correct, other than the increased risk of
>burning to death, what would be the downside if ignoring the regs?
What is it you want to do?
What is the current layout of your building (flat, maisonette,
bungalow, two- or three-storey house, etc.)? What level of protection
is there to the current escape route? If there are stairs, do they
come into an open-plan room, or into a separate hall?
With any building work to an existing building (apart from some
changes of use), the regulation is that the building work should
either comply with the relevant requirements or (if it does not
currently comply with those requirements) should be no worse than
before the work started.
In other words, if the new window is to a first floor habitable room
and replacing one that has an opening of at least 0.33m^2 and with a
minimum opening width or height of 450mm with the bottom of the
opening between 900mm-1100mm above the floor, then the replacement
should be at least those dimensions.
[This is assuming that the main escape route isn't protected with fire
doors and leading directly to a final exit (or two routes separated by
fire reisting construction), or there is an alternative route to
another stair, or another suitably sized opening in the same room.]
If the above criteria are met (i.e., the work makes the building no
worse than before the work started), then you haven't "ignored the
regs", you've complied with them.
I would suggest the surveyor (rather than the salesman) will have a
better idea of the requirements. One assumes that the replacement
windows will be installed by someone registered with the FENSA
self-certification scheme. I don't know how closely these are policed
by their governing body, but if the company deliberately installs
windows that don't meet the requirements for means of escape, they run
a risk of having their licence pulled (albeit probably a miniscule
risk). If they aren't 'FENSA registered', then the work should be
notified to the local authority, who may query whether the means of
escape is any worse than before. If you need to but don't notify the
local authority, this may be picked up when you sell the house.
Practically, rather than legally, is it worth not having a window that
you can't escape through if a fire has blocked your escape route? If
you need but don't want that escape route, you should make very sure
that you and all occupants of your house are aware of a fire before
it's too late. Get some smoke detectors if you haven't already got
them.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?
Gareth
On 29/09/2010 21:14, Hugo Nebula wrote:
> [Default] On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 21:05:59 +0100, a certain chimpanzee,
> Gareth <m...@privacy.net>, randomly hit the keyboard and wrote:
>
>> Do bedroom windows have to have an opening at least 600mm wide?
>
> Yes or no.
>
>> The reason I ask is that I had a couple of people round to give me
>> quotes for some replacement windows. The first bloke, an experienced
>> chap from a local firm, said I couldn't do what I wanted because the
>> regs state that bedroom windows need to have an opening of at least
>> 600mm for an escape route. The second chap, a young bloke with shiny
>> suit from a large national firm, didn't seem to know anything about this
>> rule.
>>
>> Assuming the 1st bloke is correct, other than the increased risk of
>> burning to death, what would be the downside if ignoring the regs?
>
> What is it you want to do?
Replace two back bedroom windows, which are currently single glazed
wooden framed with double glazed UPVC.
The window in the small bedroom is currently divided in half vertically
with one half opening and one half fixed. I want to have the same
arrangement but double glazed with UPVC frames.
>
> What is the current layout of your building (flat, maisonette,
> bungalow, two- or three-storey house, etc.)? What level of protection
> is there to the current escape route? If there are stairs, do they
> come into an open-plan room, or into a separate hall?
Fairly ordinary two storey house. Stairs down to a hall.
>
> With any building work to an existing building (apart from some
> changes of use), the regulation is that the building work should
> either comply with the relevant requirements or (if it does not
> currently comply with those requirements) should be no worse than
> before the work started.
How strict is the "no worse" bit? If I have the same arrangement as I
do currently but with uPVC instead of wood it will be slightly worse
because the uPVC frames are slightly thicker.
Thanks for your reply.
Gareth
Thanks for the link.
Gareth
I'm in England, I suppose I should have mentioned that.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
To reply to me directly:
Replace privacy.net with: totalise DOT co DOT uk and replace me with
gareth.harris
Gareth
Thanks for all the replies.
Gareth
On 28/09/2010 21:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Gareth wrote:
>> Not strictly DIY but I'm sure people here will know the answer.
>>
>> Do bedroom windows have to have an opening at least 600mm wide?
>>
>
> At least one does, yes, unless there is some other way to escape.
Is that at least one bedroom or at least one window per room? for
example, if the stairs were blocked I could go to another bedroom with a
bigger window and climb out of there.
>
>> The reason I ask is that I had a couple of people round to give me
>> quotes for some replacement windows. The first bloke, an experienced
>> chap from a local firm, said I couldn't do what I wanted because the
>> regs state that bedroom windows need to have an opening of at least
>> 600mm for an escape route. The second chap, a young bloke with shiny
>> suit from a large national firm, didn't seem to know anything about this
>> rule.
>>
>
> That doesnt surprise me in the slightest.
>> Assuming the 1st bloke is correct, other than the increased risk of
>> burning to death, what would be the downside if ignoring the regs?
>>
> The BCO can force you to have a suitable window fitted. At your
> considerable expense. If picked up in a survey, it will also result in a
> downward negotiation on price when selling.
>
My surveyor didn't spot it :(
Hugo Nebula
Gareth <m...@privacy.net>, randomly hit the keyboard and wrote:
>How strict is the "no worse" bit? If I have the same arrangement as I
>do currently but with uPVC instead of wood it will be slightly worse
>because the uPVC frames are slightly thicker.
Strict; I don't know a BCO who would be prepared to accept an opening
which is less than 450mm, or less than what was there previously. For
those of us with long memories, the requirement was 550mm wide up to
about 10 years ago. The reduction in the width was thought at the time
to be a retrograde step. Imagine trying to get out of a narrow window.
Now imagine trying to get IN wearing breathing apparatus. Do you
really want it narrower?
If you want side hung openers, how about a window with two casements,
and a 'false' central mullion? These are quite common where the
appearance of a central mullion is required.
Gareth
On 01/10/2010 21:39, Hugo Nebula wrote:
> [Default] On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:15:50 +0100, a certain chimpanzee,
> Gareth <m...@privacy.net>, randomly hit the keyboard and wrote:
>
>> How strict is the "no worse" bit? If I have the same arrangement as I
>> do currently but with uPVC instead of wood it will be slightly worse
>> because the uPVC frames are slightly thicker.
>
> Strict; I don't know a BCO who would be prepared to accept an opening
> which is less than 450mm, or less than what was there previously. For
> those of us with long memories, the requirement was 550mm wide up to
> about 10 years ago. The reduction in the width was thought at the time
> to be a retrograde step. Imagine trying to get out of a narrow window.
> Now imagine trying to get IN wearing breathing apparatus. Do you
> really want it narrower?
>
> If you want side hung openers, how about a window with two casements,
> and a 'false' central mullion? These are quite common where the
> appearance of a central mullion is required.
Thanks for that idea. The local window man suggested two openings with
a "flying mullion" down the middle, which he said would be a bit more
expensive but his quote was still less than 1/4 the price Everest quoted
for what now appears to be non-compliant arrangement.